IL Track Tested: 2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 vs. 2011 Ford Mustang GT

Hmm. Two tenths and a few hundredths is within the range of error of driver skill, environment, and rubber. $2000 for a better exhaust note and stickers? That's up for the buyer to decide.

Could you pick up a few tenths by modding a 5.0 for less than $2000? Definitely.

Good comparison IL!

6k in options?
Can you lay off the butter!

And didn't you have a long-term 2011 GT?
Why didn't you use those test numbers?

This car only has 1451 miles, so it's not the same car......
BD

My bad. I see the date tested.
BD

@altimadude05

To be more accurate, you should compare base prices. Base price for the GT starts at $32,845. Base price for the Boss starts at $40,310. That's a $7,465 price difference - quite a lot of cash for 32 more HP, suspension upgrades, a front splitter, and wider rear tires. I'm with you on agreeing that the GT is a better performance bargain, since with $7,465, you can do a lot to a car to increase its performance.

Also noteworthy is the Laguna Seca version, which base price starts at $48,100. That's awfully close to the base price of the 2011 GT500, which starts at $49,495. Not only is the GT500 faster in a straight line, it's also quicker around a track than the Laguna Seca version, as proven by IL in this comparison:

http://www.insideline.com/ford/mustang/2011/2011-ford-mustang-track-shoot-out.html

This is why I prefer the GT500 over the Laguna Seca version.

So help me out here. The numbers with these 'stangs really are not that good. Heck, even a base Vette will out perform them in every category. A ZR1 will completely decimate either ford. So I ask, what's the big deal? Who would want one? The boss ain't really the boss.

Chevy Runs Deep

@ zr1man

Nice try at trolling, but you're wrong on all accounts this time around. The Laguna Seca version is faster than a Grand Sport around the same race track:

http://www.insideline.com/ford/mustang/2011/2011-ford-mustang-track-shoot-out.html

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/corvette/2011/2002-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2010-corvette-grand-sport-vs-2011-corvette-z06-carbon-comparison-test-and-video.html

It's also a lot cheaper, too.

If you want an apples to apples comparison, the GT500 is comparable in price to the Grand Sport, but the GT500 is a better performer in all categories, and is faster yet around the same track.

All of these versions of the Mustang are cheaper in base price compared to the base price of the base Corvette, which starts at $49, 525.

The funny thing is, even a lowly V6 Mustang with only 300 HP is about as fast around a track than the old 2002 Z06.

Oh good lord, why would you be comparing Vettes to Mustangs? In what world does a $32k Mustang GT have any reason to worry about a $55k (or $120k) Vette?

Can I add my name to the petition to kick this guy off the forums?

That would be kicking off zr1man, not you lt1boy. BTW, the 2002 Z06 was hampered by toasted tires and brakes. With fresh rubber and pads a 1:27 would be more like it. Doesn't change the overall gist of your post though.

IL must have the slowest drivers on the planet in a Mustang. Both Road and Track and Motor Trend where like in another time zone at 4.1 and 4.0 for their 0 to 60 runs. The 1/4 mile times were just in another world compare to yours at 12.3 and 117 mph R@T and 12.3 and 115.8 mph Motor Trend. Hell I have seen a brand new Boss that still had the window sticker turn 12.2 at 117 mph at the local track. With just drag radials that same car turned a 11.8 in the ¼ mile. You guys need some driving lesions.

i think the boss is an overall great package. it is easy to option a regular GT to cost more then the standard boss or at least be within only a few dozen more dollars on your monthly bill.

zr1man fails as usual

The 0-60 times and the quarter mile times are off because, Motor Trend and Road and Track to all their testing with pro drivers. Randy Probst does all MT;s times. I guess these times are for average joes. But, they are slower than I would expect.

Different days different drivers, its the first thing I check for, not reading otherwise.

I can't fault IL their numbers - they tend to be consistently GOOD (i.e. not amateur) and consistently achievable at tracks around the country by GOOD drivers. Do other publications get faster? Sure. Do we know if they flat-foot shifted and did other things to shave a bit off? I don't.

From what I can see, the boss gives 3 additional MPH in the 1/4 and some nice effects for a few thousand dollars. I know plenty of guys who have spent $2-3k to drop .3 tenths and gain 3mph in the 1/4, and this comes with a warranty.

I've read all the "reasons" why IL's numbers are so terrible in comparison to other publications but it still makes it hard to compare test numbers when IL's results are so incredibly worse than everyone else's. One mag has the GT besting an M3 while IL's numbers have it simply tying my G37. Now I love my Infiniti but there is no way in the world that it can match a 412hp Mustang GT to 60....

@lt1boy:

Don't waste your time. Every sports car article that's published, there's zr1man out trolling. Then someone like you tries to reason with him, then someone like me says don't bother. The guy's a pestilence...

@ZR1man; You have a good point. But what I am wondering is why would someone buy a ZR1 ($110,000 +/-) when he could have just bought a Bugatti Veyron (1.6mil.)? The Veyron has more than a 50 mph top speed advantage and is almost a full second quicker 0-60. Clearly only a complete idiot would buy the ZR1, right? We should all buy Bugatti Veyrons.

PS - I could have sworn that I've seen the Boss and the GT test low to mid-4's in a number of publications. Axle hop aside, do these acceleration numbers seem about half a second off to anyone?

And no, I'm not hung up on numbers, just noting a fairly big gap compared to other track tests...

@zr1man, Really? Vette vs Mustang discussion?

I have to tell you, all this talk of your "claimed ZR1" at home against cars that are not even trying to be in the same class makes me wonder if you are making yourself fell better about your "short" comings in life. Got some little man issues going on?

Plus you always brag about the power in the ZR1. I have to ask you this question. Where are YOU going to use all that power? Can't use it on the street and I'm sure your not tracking the car either. You bragging about having all that power is like Elton John bragging about being loved by tons of beautiful women. Neither one of you will do anything with it, so who cares if you have it.....

The article doesn't mention if FORD has solved the problems with the Mustang Chinese made GETRAG transmission yet ! They must be working quietly setting up a replacement designed and built in the USA !

When it's this close, I don't care about a few tenths.

@fandiesel, jmaetro2 is that you?

Mustang owner with a CHINESSEOMG trans with 25k miles on it, as beautiful and silky smooth as the day I bought it.

@blackdynamite1

You first comment is your greatest post ever!

Inside Line,

I understand that you use regular Blow Joes to test your vehicles, but your times are really off. I hate to post a link to a rival automotive media but this one article/video is what made me go test drive and then special order a 5.0. It truly is a world class car. Their numbers are significantly better. Thanks for the comparisons though. We all appreciate them.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/viewall.html

@lostboyz

Yep its jmaetro2 or his long lost twin. He needs to realize that the transmission problem is not as big as he makes it out today. He will not get rich off a class-action lawsuit.

For the record, I don't have the engine tick or the whine. I did have to replace my squeaking front control arms via the TSB. And now its even more stiffer up front. You can feel it all throughout the steering and its electric!!!

The short (3.73) gears in the GT hamper the 0-60 time more than they help in my opinion. Having to make that addl. shift at 59.5 to 3rd likely adds a few 10ths for the best driver. Any chance there's a GT with the 3.55 gearset around to compare with? That may be a better set-up than the 3.73 for 0-60 and quarter mile times.

@wjtinatl,

You might be right. Ford has officially said that they have gotten better times out of the automatic 5.0 with 3.15 gears.

I will defend IL a bit here....M/T and C/D frankly have always used roll out times as their "real" stats and IL does not. They also dont abuse machines over and over to get the absolute best times. Frankly I think it is the best way to do it. 99% of drivers will get the same times as IL will. Hell I remember the Sept or Oct 1981 M/T with the cover story screaming out "The Boss Is Back, new Mustang GT does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds!!" Keep in mind this was the 156hp 302 2V GT that nobody could get to 60 in less than 8.3 seconds. In other words it was a lie. Figures are often distorted and "adjusted" for atmospheric conditions etc.

I'd still get the Boss if I had to pick between the two cars. Why? That engine is a legitimate work of art, high revving even if it "only" has an extra couple hp. It's not just about the peak power and torque numbers, it's about how the engine makes it!

Still, it looks like the 302 has a few issues that needs to be worked out in regards to that rear suspension hopping- perhaps in the next update.

A $300 upgrade to a pair of Steeda control arms will mitigate that wheel hop.

I'm fine with IL having slower, real world times. It also looks like they test on a runway and not at the dragstrip with a prepped track. What I don't like is all these pieced together comparison tests done on different days with different drivers.

zr1man is just a Vette fanboy, and nothing is wrong with that, but come on buddy, don't compare the two.

I prefer some other vehicle too, but I won't throw their name plates in just because.

As far as these two cars go, the Boss 302 is more than just a car, when you drive it you can tell the difference. The tests don't tell you everything. The GT with track pack, including Brembo's should only run you around 33K, but as usual IL over pays. Not even a Vette is the bargan sports car that the Boss 302 is in comparison to price per pony power, and as pointed out it does beat out most. The only thing the Mustang is missing is an upgraded interior, double wishbone or IRS instead of the live axle, and sticky summer rubbers. Either way the Mustang GT and Boss have M3 like performance at a very affordable price.

Nice but they need more horse power and smaller windows. And I think they are too light. Ford needs to beef up the curb weight too.

Yes, IL posts consistently slow times. Rollout is one, but it's more than that.

The issue here, though, is that with the exception of the quarter-mile, all of these tests are conducted at 75 mph or under. You are not going to see the difference between these two cars at those speeds. The Boss has aero aids that help out at higher speeds - over 100 mph - and it's making most of its extra hp between 7k and 7.5k rpm - you're not going to see those road speeds or engine speeds much in this kind of testing. In other publications, you see cars like this going 0-120, 130, 140 or even 150 mph, because that's where the differences lie.

All of the track shootouts linked through these comments, the Mustang one and the Corvette ones - were conducted at Streets of Willow, a 1.6-mile track. The Boss was hitting 110+ mph on the back straight, the GT500 was hitting 112+, the Z06 Carbon 115+ and the ZR1 117+. Come on - those cars don't belong on a little track like that. These heavy, high-hp cars need to be compared at a track where you can actually see the differences between them when operating them in the environment they are meant for.

To give you an idea, earlier this year, C&D took a V6 Mustang to VIR, and with its 114-mph speed limiter, it spent OVER 8 seconds per lap up against the limiter. At Streets of Willow, IL's V6 Mustang's highest speed was just over 98 mph. At VIR, C&D's ZR1 hit 156+ mph compared to IL's 117+ at Streets.

Streets of Willow is for anything up to maybe a stock 370Z - and slower.

Putting 400+ hp cars weighing 3700 lbs on Streets of Willow is like taking the top half of the PGA tour and having them play on a miniature golf course. You'll find out how will they putt and chip, but that's about it.

the price for the boss doesn't just get you slightly better performance. you also get some very nice equipment upgrades.

the adjustable dampers.

the stronger engine components.

i forget if you get the up-rated LSD in the "plain" boss or not.

it is definitely a more track ready vehicle.

having said that, the plain jane gt is already a great road course car with a few upgrades.

A ZR1 Moment

I want to share an experience I had today with all my IL friends. I know this doesn't have much to do with this column, but it is about cars. Earlier today, when I left a store, I was walking across the parking lot to my 2010 ZR1. Another guy was walking in the same direction. He looked a bit downtrodden and had a sad look on his face. He had almost reached his new Infinity when he looked up and saw my ZR1. Instead of getting in his car, he made a beeline for the ZR1. As he walked over his expression totally changed. He became more animated and began walking around the ZR1. I am used to people looking and admiring it. Happens almost everywhere I go. I get a lot of positive comments about it. But this was different.

This man's whole demeanor changed. He was truly excited. We talked a few minutes. I show him the inside the car and under the hood. I even started the engine and revved it a little. I usually don't do all that. I just felt really good lifting his mood. Turns out he lost a family member recently. This must have been the high point of his day. I was glad I was there to send a ripple of kindness and happiness into the world.

Be Happy. Spread Joy.

To all those complaining about numbers- MT and the like 'correct' their numbers. Meaning, they have a formula that is applied to their actual times that reflects what the car would be capable of under ideal conditions. Problem is, very rarely do you get that perfect combination of temp, humidity, and mineshaft DA in the real world.

As for the test, disparity between other mags aside, I still see this one as a no brainer. These cars are really completely different from one another. The GT buyer sees the Boss as just a 'few tenths quicker'. The Boss buyer sees the GT as a 90% done. Numbers chasers can easily exceed the Boss' numbers w/ bolt-ons. Boss buyers no they couldn't replicate all of the engineering and work that went into it by professional engineers. It's about the total package. The Boss is one, the GT isn't. Nor is the GT500, honestly. That's not to downplay either of those cars, as they're great. But the GT is 'compromised' by having to be fairly docile and practical, it has concessions to make. The GT500 on the other hand, is a sledge hammer. A brute w/ a ton of power, but not so much in the way of finesse and balancing.

V6 Mustang has 114 mph speed limiter? Really? Hahahaha.

Please tell me that owners have found the way to easily remove the speed limiter nowadays.

Interesting how numbers change even among IL staffers, as earlier the GT had a 67+ mph run at the slalom, now is 69. And of course the acceleration numbers, which vary as well a bit.
Braking and grip stayed mostly consistent.

Here, it may look like the Boss isn`t worth it, but other car magazines have shown where the Boss shines, and how it might be worth it, as an upgrade over the GT, especially at the track.

Mustang is a great car but when you start approaching the $40,000 range there is way more competition.If I were to purchase a car with a $40,000 base price I would look at the BMW 335. It is fast enough, 4 yr/40,000 mile warranty, better resale, no maintenance costs for the first 4 years. The Mustang still has that rental car type interior but the exterior looks great.

The numbers posted by IL seem similar to what I'm getting as well. As has been stated many times before, it's a traction issue. The GT simply needs more rear tire to put all that power down to the ground. I also installed aftermarket Koni sport shocks to help soften the overdamped suspension. Now the car can squat down under hard acceleration and is less apt to just burn rubber (as well as having a nicer ride).

Nice comparison. I'll take the the GT with Brembo's and the Recaro seats.

@scott230,

I contemplated a used 335 over my 5.0 I couldn't justify spending the same amount of money when the 5.0 can equal or beat its bigger brother. Also the 3 series interior is overrated. Have you looked at a 5.0 premium package's interior? It's very nice and very similar to a 3 series sport package for half the price. Also a Ford is so much easier to upgrade and maintain. For example, a fully painted replacement GT bumper is $200 from newtakeoffparts.com. You can't beat that! Bottom line, there's no better bang for the buck than a 5.0 at its price point...even with upgrades.

I'm curious can you even get a boss anywhere close to sticker? I know Ford is notorious with having extreme mark ups on special edition models. When I went to drive the 2011 GT a couple months ago they had a boss roped off in the showroom which the salesman kept trying to talk me into, it was marked up to $72000. I told him that I could think of a lot more "well rounded" sports cars worth $72g than the Boss...

zr1man

it has nothing to do with mustangs.

But it was a nice story:)

@ saunupe1911

335 > 5.0 ALL day. They have similar performance but the BMW does it with more than 100 less hp. As good as the 5.0L motor is, the N55 is better in every way.

Plus, even though the 335 isn't BMW's best interior, it is much better than the Ford in terms of fit/finish, and build/material quality.

And the 335 is MUCH cheaper/easier to upgrade than the 5.0L. Turbocharged engines are typically easier to upgrade than N/A engines. Just a simply ECU Tune could net 80hp gains on the 335. For $1,000. This largely due to an increase in the boost pressure in the turbo.

$30k vs. $30k - Used 335 > New 5.0L

Now, new vs. new, that is another story. I don't know that the 335 is worth the extra $15k at that point.

And keep in mind, it isn't WHAT the car does but rather HOW it does it. The 335 is dynamically better than the 5.0 in every way.

And tests these cars???
5.0 to 60 for the GT and 4.8 for the Boss302???
How come Insideline ALWAYS has to slowest figures of anyone who tests the cars.
C&D got a 4.4 and a 4.1 out of these cars, respectively.

Even the previous 4.6 Mustang GT has run 0-60 in 5.1/5.2 seconds with 315hp...

I will volunteer to be your test driver as you clearly are in need of one

@hooklyn

I test drove a 335 - very nice and well rounded, but boring. There is no comparing the visceral feel of the 5.0 c/w the N55. The N55 is easier to upgrade with an ECU reflash, but the all-aluminum V8 is truely something special, especially at full boil. The 335 has a better sorted out rear end and better stock seats, but overall the stang is much more fun to drive!

Thanks to ZR1man for making me literally LOL.

Even though it likely wasn't intended to be taken that way, that story has to be one of the funniest things I've ever read. His douchebaggery is truly boundless.

I almost wonder if his entire persona is a ruse and all his posts are ironic commentary on how all vette owners are d-bags (yep, all of them). Could anyone seriously be that much of a douche? "I revved my engine to make the sad man smile" ...it's effing priceless.

"no maintenance costs for the first 4 years."

And 10 times the cost to maintain it after that.

I believe that ZR1 man has a real ZR1 as much as I believe that panamera4 has a Panamera.

I own a 2010 GT and I understand these are historically muscle cars but horsepower is last thing the Mustang needed more of really. That said the new 5.0 engine is a thing of beauty and I am jealous that I don't have one. However the suspension setups on Mustangs are terrible (with lack of rebound dampening being amoung the worst) and that is why we don't read a more flattering descriptions of the way the car handles.

I bought my Mustang as a learning experience. Nothing will teach you better and make one appreciate vehicle dynamics and performance more than going through a step by step upgrade doing most of the work oneself as I did.
As I went through each suspension and chassis modifcation I could feel the difference it makes and it brings a whole new appreciation of what each piece is responsible for. This is list of the changes that I have made so far

Chassis:

Fornt Shock tower strut brace
CHE lower front K member brace
Steeda rear frame brace connectors
Steeda pahard rod brace

Suspension:

Tokico D-spec adjustable shocks
H&R 3/4" lower springs
Steeda adjustable front sway bar connectors
Steeda Metal Camber plates
Steeda rear axle upper control arm and mount plate
Steeda rear axle billet lower rear control arms
Steeda adjustable panhard rod
Steeda front and sway bars
Steeda front billet sway bar mounts

and with the suspension changes a front end alignment.

The car cost me 30K out the door and I have put in perhaps about 4K in mods so far. As I have seen out on the road it has despite the solid rear axle no problems keeping up with G37's, 3 series etc. Steering feel and feed back is much better as well. Its it perfect no, (the axle can still step out from time to time) but I don't have to worry about expensive maitenance or repair bills. What's a BASE price on a 3 series 32-33K? and ever have to have one repaired? I'll keep my Mustang enjoy it and not have to worry about it.

Hooklyn, you say the 335 has similar performance to the GT with 100 hp less. Then you say the GT has been clocked 0-60 in 4.1.

Please link to a 335 test with it going 0-60 in 4.1.

With that said, they're two different cars...

I love it when people here base everything simply on numbers. If you would just dig a bit deeper you would see the Boss is quite the package and worth the extra money. Sure, you could modify the GT with the $7000 difference in price but there goes your warranty and then you have potential reliability issues. If you can take $7000, invest that in the GT and make it out perform the Boss in every tactile and measurable way I applaud you! I simply don't think it's possible with $7000!

Just look at how composed the Boss is vs the GT on the track. It doesn't move around nearly as much as the chassis upgrades of the Boss simply make it more polished. Then we have the extra power which again is evident as it's 3mph faster in the 1/4! That's pretty significant and a fine example of a REAL WORLD PERFORMANCE advantage not numbers that appear close on paper!

ZR1man, why compare every car to the Vette?! The Mustangs direct rival would be the Camaro of which the Mustang beats the brakes off of. If you're going to make comparisons try to be more realistic. Thanks!

@hooklyn,

A simple BAMA or Ford ProCal tune extracts 30 to 40 HP and totally transforms the Coyote 5.0 to a brand new beast. And I don't have to worry about blowing up my turbo. Plus the Coyote engine itself is so easy to repair. This little rich kid working at my local tint shop has a beautiful 335-fully loaded. All flat out drooled when he saw my 5.0 and I told him I paid 31k out the door and he paid over 60k for his 335(fully loaded though). People, please keep in mind that Ford has been excellent with rebates on the Mustang GT and you might be lucky like me and get it at dealer invoice. You can easily get a GT premium out the door at 30k with taxes included.

People also have to realize that you can buy the parts, but you have to do the install too. I trust Ford engineers over myself and regular mechanics. Just the buy the Boss and save yourself some tuning frustrations and headaches. Then again, I don't know the markup of the Boss either so....

To hondacura4's point you have to be smart about doing upgrades. I started with the suspension first because that was the weakest point and the after market makes better than OEM quaility parts even on improved cars like the Boss, I've seen the OEM part on cars ( I also own a Boxster ) and even at that price point they are not that impressive. You can just look at the after market pieces and you can immediatly tell the difference. The after market parts don't break. The place where would most like need to make a warrent claim is going to be the engine/driveline/electrical so I will leave that for after the warrenty expires. Can you get to get to a Boss with a GT and 7K in parts no, but with 2,3,4K you will get one that will IMHO out handled for less than 7K. I can live the slower performance times.

To hondacura4's point you have to be smart about doing upgrades. I started with the suspension first because that was the weakest point and the after market makes better than OEM quaility parts even on improved cars like the Boss, I've seen the OEM part on cars ( I also own a Boxster ) and even at that price point they are not that impressive. You can just look at the after market pieces and you can immediatly tell the difference. The after market parts don't break. The place where would most like need to make a warrent claim is going to be the engine/driveline/electrical so I will leave that for after the warrenty expires. Can you get to get to a Boss with a GT and 7K in parts no, but with 2,3,4K you will get one that will IMHO out handled for less than 7K. I can live the slower performance times.

NHTSA opens investigation into 2011 Mustang transmission problems

Wednesday, August 10, 2011

For the most part the 2011+ Mustang has been void of any major problems, but if anything has caused trouble it’s the transmission. The Chinese-built Getrag MT-82 6-speed has already been the subject of one TSB regarding cold shifting problems, but many owners have reported more serious issues including binding gears, difficulty engaging in shifts and excessive noise and vibration.

To the dismay of many owners Ford has remained silent regarding the transmission issues, but it appears that the issue hasn’t gone completely unnoticed. Today the NHTSA announced that it is opening an investigation into transmission problems, reporting that they had received 32 complaints from owners regarding a sudden inability to shift into gear. According to the Detroit News, “some reports said incidents occurred while merging into high speed traffic, while others said incidents occurred while turning left across oncoming traffic.” The government agency will be taking a closer look at approximately 26,000 Mustangs that could potentially have the problem.

After the announcement Ford did acknowledge that they are aware of the problem. “We will fully cooperate with the government as they review this matter,” commented a company spokesperson.

Here are the results of Fords findings,

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/11/ford-releases-findings-on-nhtsa-mustang-transmission-investigation.html

http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/2011/11/09/ford-responds-to-nhtsas-investigation-of-the-mustangs-mt82-6-speed-transmission/

@ fordson1

Nope.

I said the GT has been clocked at 4.4 and the Boss 302 at 4.1. Hence, the use of 'respectively' in my sentence when referencing the performance of each car mentioned in my previous statement.

And I don't sit around and count tenths of a 60 to 60.

I have seen the 335i Coupe run 4.7 to 4.9
I have seen the Mustang GT run 4.4 to 5.0 (this story).

They are the 'same' for all intents and purposes. The driver, tires, conditions, etc. would make the difference, not the cars themselves.

And people who buy a 335 aren't sitting around counting tenths of a second to 60. The 335 is a better car in its entirety. Even if it is nearly as quick. Owners of either of these cars are drag racing at every chance they get (well, maybe the Ford guys...).

For their core function. Fun, fast, performance coupes, the 335 is a better car.

For a drag car, go buy the Mustang GT. The second you drive it on the street, the Bimmer is the better street car.

Of course the BMW costs more, it is a nicer car. You can't be surprised that the better car costs more money...

@ 06sti

I can't argue which car is more exciting. You think the 335 is boring, I think the 335 is refined and composed.

Same car, just two different, and equally valid, ways of looking at it.

Both cars are designed as all purpose, daily driving machines (Boss 302 is a bit different). As an all purpose, daily driving machine, the 335 is better than the Mustang.

At the limit, the Mustang may be the better choice but that represents a very small portion of the time one would spend behind the wheel of either car.

Lets make it more black and white.

Driving the car at 0% to 90% of its capabilities - 90% of the time (being conservative)
BMW > GT

Driving the car at 90%+ of its capabilities - 10% of the time (being generous)
GT > BMW

I will take the BMW...

If you intentions were at the track, neither would be best.

fordson1: I agree with the track choices. Took my E93 335is to Willow Springs totally stock for an open track day and could hit 120 on the front and back straights. Much higher-powered cars on Streets of Willow won't hit those speeds on the smaller, tighter tracks, so you can't really look at top speeds objectively on Streets of Willow runs.

ZRIman's only mistake was to show the guy the Corvette's inside. Opening the door to the mass of low grade plastics and crappy seats probably ruined the guy's whole day.

@ saunupe1911

I can't argue that the GT offers a good PERFORMANCE value. But the rest of the car isn't nearly to the level of a 335. The 335 is literally better in every way but the FEW ticks to 60. And I really stress FEW as it is only 2 or 3 tenths. Something just a quick ECU reflash on the 335 will fix.

And discounts/rebates on cars are NOT a good thing. They are a sign of decreasing demand (or increasing supply) and are used to artificially boost deman/appeal for a product.

A car as hot as the Mustang should NOT be offering 10-15% discounts. The reason you will not find that on the Bimmer is because people are actually willing to pay sticker (or close to) for it.

The company doesn't determine the price of a product, the consumer ultimately does.

If Ford is offering big discounts like you say it is, it is because customer's aren't will to pay more for a car you say is already a great value.
BMW doesn't offer these discounts because customers perceive the sticker price to more accurately reflect the cars worth.

"Something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay"

"Fun, fast, performance coupes, the 335 is a better car."

More Europhile Kool-Aid. They have such different personalities they really cant be compared. But one thing can be compared: cost to own and operate in the long run. Hands down Ford for the win. There are quite a few people on this board that seem to think that just because a car is made in Germany it is somehow superior to an American car. Complete Bunk. But it is far easier to follow the rest of the Euro-lemmings off of the cliff than admit the truth.

fordson1: I agree with the track choices. Took my E93 335is to Willow Springs totally stock for an open track day and could hit 120 on the front and back straights. Much higher-powered cars on Streets of Willow won't hit those speeds on the smaller, tighter tracks, so you can't really look at top speeds objectively on Streets of Willow runs.

ZRIman's only mistake was to show the guy the Corvette's inside. Opening the door to the mass of low grade plastics and crappy seats probably ruined the guy's whole day.

@hooklyn,

Ford offers rebates because they want to entice more buyers, not because the car isn't selling. Take a look at all of the pony car sales. None of them sell like a Focus or Corolla as they are not meant to be. I will agree that the 335 is an overall better car than the Mustang GT. But it isn't $15k to $20k better no matter how refined it is. I think MotorTrend said it best...the Mustang GT is a strut away from being better than an M3 which is why Koni STRs is my personal Christmas gift. Nuff said.

hooklyn, You really just might want to do some research before you pontificate on BMWs. And

FIVE of the top ten were BMWs and none were Fords.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2012-10best-vehicles-with-the-highest-incentives-in-2011-feature

Also I would not call any car "better" than another that was only 5 steps from the bottom in CR reliability scores. The only cars worse than BMW were Dodge, Mini, Audi and Chrysler. Three of the worst five cars were (not a big surprise) were German.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/26/2010-consumer-reports-reliability-scores/

So spare us the kool-aid.

@bodyblue,

+100...Great Comment

@hooklyn,
you are caught up in too much marketing hype and prestige, rather than looking at a machine for what it really is. The Cost/Benefit of an item is all I care about. German fanbois always try to justify their purchases rather than looking at the facts.

To saunupe1911 point you don't learn as much unless you go through those headache and frustrations and the mechanics that I know are ASE certified and work on and sell some very high end cars. So if you want to wine and cheese this, bench race, whatever thats fine but you are reading articles on this web site to learn something more about what you interested in so why not take it to the next level?

@rasguetano,

My 5.0 is my daily driver. I don't have time for the installation headaches because I have better things to do. Don't get me wrong, I will continue to tune my car. But I will take calculated risks. Ford will void a warranty in heart beat.

@rasguetano,

Also I'm not dissing you for tuning you car. That's what its made for. Keep it up and congrats on the suspension mods cause I plan snatch a few off the list as well! I'm sure the ride is awesome.

"Ford will void a warranty in heart beat. "

Bingo! Why take a chance while the car is still in warranty? Honestly the 5.0 has plenty of power for any occasion. Bang for the buck is always what Mustangs have been about.....they are still among the best buys in the world for that.

How nice of you to brighten that poor soul's day, ZR1Man. Imagine how impressed he'd been by a Ford GT. You know, the super car, the one with the engine in the middle. The one that does 205 mph bone stock and can be built to over 1200 hp with stock internals. At a car show last summer, my 5 year old GT was swarmed by young and old alike. By the new ZR1 you could hear crickets chirping.
Look, I actually like the current Vette. The Z06 (before recent price increases) was probably the best high performance car offered. But outside of aficionados, no one can tell the difference between ANY Vette, or justify the one at twice the price because they all look the same, except for that goofy, bulbous hood in the ZR1.
like it or not GM has not done enough to differentiate their halo cars. The new ZL1 is already obsolete thanks to the forthcoming 2013 GT500. I don't care where your alliances are in the motorized world. The Mustang, whether 6cyl, GT, Boss 302, or GT500 offer unheard of performance bang for the buck, and it appears to only be getting better. Who, five years ago, could have imagined a 200 mph pony car for $60,000?

Careful djsgt, zr1man may cry and get his gold chains wet and stain his chest hair and Members Only jacket.

/I kid

Both cars are fantastic but i'll take the GT. I'd much rather take the $7k difference and mod a GT myself. Boss Intake Manifolds are sold for less than $500 and can be added to a GT. Add a cold air intake with a tuner and an exhaust setup and your set power wise. You will still end up with about 5 grand which can easily be spent on suspension upgrades as well as some better rubber.

ZR1 man please stop comparing every car under the sun against the Corvette. Doesn't take a genius to see how biased you are, your name alone gives you away.

Does anyone really believe that ZR1man really has a ZR1? Come on guys.....oh and I guess hooklyn is out looking for a rebate on a BMW.

I'm pretty sure a stock 5.0 can hit 60 well within 5 seconds. More like 4.6-4.8.

The 335i and Boss/5.0 comparisons are apples and oranges. Both cars have their strengths and weaknesses. You have to a a Quaife or similar to make the 3er a suitable track weapon, while Ford sometimes rivals Mitsubishi or Subaru with respect to warranty isues on HPDE or autocrossed cars.
For $45K give me a Cayman S.
Or better yet, I'll pick up a 2008 Bullitt AND an E30 M3- and have the best of both worlds...

I expected more of a performance advantage out of the 302 over the 5.0. What was the shock setting at on the Boss I wonder?

Guys, zr1man DOES have a zr1. I have video proof:

http://youtu.be/BB-KBaevPqM

As you can see, it destroys autocross cones like no other car.

Lighten up funford; you try to drive a slalom with your gold chains tangled in the steering wheel.

Even though the performance is similar the 3 Series and the Mustang GT ARE NOT direct competitors!

Ford stated, when designing and building the 2011 Mustang GT we used the BMW M3 as our bench mark.

I never think that I was going to purchase a Mustang, until I read the MT article of the '11 GT Brembo compared to the BMW M3. I was really amazed on how a car that was half the price of the Bimmer could be that close in performance at the track. After I bought my GT Brembo, the first thing that I did was to improve the shocks and Springs with KONI and steeda Sport, now I'm sure it will beat the M3 fairly easy.
The only thing that I regret, is that when I bought my Mustang, the BOSS was not in the market, that I consider a very well round sport package, probably the best mustang ever, that will beat very easy the M3 & the Cayman R. (Not that impressed by the BOSS looks in person).
My prior car was a '02 Porsche 911 Carrera with modified shocks, springs and roll bars, I used to race that car on the track, great handling, but its reliability was very poor and maintenance cost very high, With my GT Brembo I dont even miss that car. (Also I had an '05 Infiniti sport G35 coupe, very nice looking and handling day to day car, and a very dependable high quality vehicle).
Corvettes are great cars and will compete fairly easy with Porsche, but they will not be a match to the VIPER ACR, just look at the Nurburgring lap times numbers, not even british TOP GEAR, dares to compared to their top on the list new McLaren, that it was developed on their track, but has very poor lap time at the Nurburgring track, the McL.. is not even at the Ferrari 458 Italia level in performance or quality. Two McL...will not give simillar performance numbers, as mentioned in some magazines articles.

You guys are focusing more on VALUE than overall QUALITY.

I know the Mustang is a better value than the 335, that doesn't make it a better.

I am not focusing on the media and the hype. I have personally driven both cars. The BMW has more substance. It is better built, using higher quality materials, and with more care.

The Mustang is a good car with a big motor.
The 335 is a great car, period.

And I know that BMW reliability isn't the best. I can't argue that. But reliability is a cost argument, not a quality/performance argument.

If you can't afford the 335, then it doesn't matter how good it is. The Mustang is cheaper and offers a better performance value. That is more appealing to people who would rather spend $30k on a performance coupe than people who would spend $50k on a performance coupe.

People inclined to buy either wouldn't even look at the other.

A guy who prefers a Mustang 5.0 doesn't care about what BMW offers.
Conversely the guy who prefers a 335 doesn't care about what Ford offers.

I am the guy who prefers the BMW and don't care what Ford offers. I can afford the Bimmer so that would be my choice.

The are 2 entirely different demographics.

And of course going used changes things entirely.
$30k-$40k gets you a 996 Carrera or a Cayman S or C6 Vette or Exige or whatever.

The 335 and 5.0 are similar but different.

The Ford is an affordable performance car.
The BMW is more complete car. It does all things well, if nothing best, that is why it costs more.

You get what you pay for.

Whether what you get for that price matters to you or not I can't say. But that doesn't change the fact that it is there.

"And I know that BMW reliability isn't the best. I can't argue that. But reliability is a cost argument, not a quality/performance argument."

Near the bottom of all mainstream brands is a lot worse than "not the best" and that indeed IS a quality argument. The Mustang performs better for less money and is more reliable.....oh and actually has some style, but that is subjective.

"And I know that BMW reliability isn't the best. I can't argue that. But reliability is a cost argument, not a quality/performance argument."

Near the bottom of all mainstream brands is a lot worse than "not the best" and that indeed IS a quality argument. The Mustang performs better for less money and is more reliable.....oh and actually has some style, but that is subjective.

Let's not forget the modified Boss 302's V8 is stronger internally as it employs forged rods and pistons for a more durable track experience, especially at high revs. As I said before, you can't duplicate the Boss' all around performance with a GT for $7000!

won't touch it until they get a rear suspension that isn't sourced from a farm-implement

standard reply: "but look at those kick-a$$ slalom and skid pad scores"

i take the point. now, go drive over a railroad crossing or hit a pothole and you'll see what I'm talking about

"i take the point. now, go drive over a railroad crossing or hit a pothole and you'll see what I'm talking about"

The only people that complain about the solid axle on Mustangs are those that dont drive them. ALL of the magazine tests are amazed that Ford has done such a good job with it.

"but look at those kick-a$$ slalom and skid pad scores"

Dont forget about track times that beat lots of cars with IRS. Its just sour grape that Ford does so much with simple tech.

Just based in performance the GT & BOSS are above BMW 335. This one those not compete with Mustang. The M3 is the competition. If you want to paid more for your BMW badge is up to you. In the track it will not be a great advantage.
TOP GEAR also makes fun about the rar axle of the Corvette. But those Corvettes give a very strong to Porsches. For half the price. :)

So I have been a lurker on this blog for quite a while now. I decided it's time to sign up and contribute to the board. So I currently drive a 2012 Mustang GT with the Brembo package and 6 speed manual. It's my first brand new car and my first sports car. It had a sticker price of $37,300 but I got it for $500 over invoice. It was nice to be able to afford a car with this type of performance and style. I never liked Mustangs until they released the new 5.0 and that MotorTrend article with the 5.0 and M3 came out, so I don't consider myself a fan boy. Having said that, I absolutley love the power of this car! The thrust is insane! Again, I'm not used to driving a sports car so others may think it isn't that impressive, but to me it's intoxicating. The live axle is noticable, I don't care what magazines said it isn't...it is. It's not terrible, the ride is much smoother than my Focus ZX3, but hitting large bumps and railroad tracks is fairly harsh. I've also experienced some rear-end kick out during mid-corner bumps (this can be fun though). The transmission is great! Heard lots of complaints about it but so far I've had good luck with it and enjoy its smooth action and short throws. I really like the sound tube under the hood. It lets me enjoy some V8 music w/o attracting too much attention, but I probably will end up putting on the GT500 axle backs for a bit more sound. The interior isn't that bad. Some cheap plastics for the switchgear and on the doors but everything else is nice. The entire dash is soft touch and is accented with a long sheet of real metal. The leather seats are very supportive and feel fantastic (better than the few 3 series I've been in). I get tons of complements, I've even had people drive up to me in traffic and give me a thumbs-up. Anyway, all in all I freaking love this car. So when I eventually finish my medical residency and become a licensed radiologist will I buy high-end German cars? Hell yeah I will. But will I look down on those who choose to buy less expensive but arguably more fun cars, absolutely not. I'll probably be buying those too. Just love cars for what they are, quit putting yourself in certain camps.

This test just shows how competent the regular GT is.
The Boss 302 did perform a bit better and accelerated a bit better, but I guarantee you the gap would have been even less if the GT was fitted with the 3.55 gears and NOT the 3.73
So many people automatically think, "the shorter gears makes a car faster" and that just simply is NOT the case all the time.
The 5.0 GT is a perfect example.
The tester even mentioned it and the reason I ordered my 5.0 with the 3.55's, because the 5.0 and 3.73's requires a shift to 5th to make it through the 1/4 mile....and that shift comes at the worst time, right at the end of the run, during where trap speeds are measured and that extra .2 is lost during a shift.
You are by far accelerating faster in the 3.55 geared car at 6500 rpms in 4th as you are crossing the line, than you are in a 3.73 geared car in 5th as you cross the line.
Furthermore, the 3.55 car is easier to launch as you won't get as much wheelspin, so you can launch at a slightly higher rpm.

The 3.73 gearing works better on the Boss because you have a 7500 rpm redline and you don't need the shift to 5th that is required in the 7000 rpm fuel cut off of the regular 5.0

Test this again Inside Line, get another Brembo brake package 5.0 GT with 3.55 gears, and I think you'll see the GT will be only .1 second slower and around 1-1.5 mph less trap speeds.

I am also surprised the regular GT pretty much handled as well as the Boss 302 as well. Not much difference there.
What's even more interesting is in 2013 the GT gets a few more ponies stock. The gap will be very small then

I bought a 2012 GT a couple months ago and I am thoroughly impressed.

it is silly to compare the mustang to the corvette or the bmw. those vehicles are not meant to compete against each other. people that buy bmw want technology, luxury, and refinement. neither the corvette or the mustang are about that. the corvette is more about light weight and handling to go along with straight-line performance. mustang is about being a fast and affordable car.

i would never cross-shop these vehicles new vs new. it's not fair to compare a used one vs a new one. i can buy a used bmw the same way i can buy a used vette or mustang. all cars depreciate after purchase

I traded in a 2007 Corvette coupe on my 2011 Mustang GT. I find the Mustang to be a much more satisfying car to drive - frankly, more honest with none of the plastic pretentions of the 'Vette. Stock out of the box, the Mustang handles and steers extremely well, feels very solid and sounds incredible, much better than my Corvette ever did. I upgraded my 'Stang with the Ford ProCal racing PCM tool and installed Boss 302 wheels with larger Michelin Pilot Sport tires. With these relatively simple and inexpensive changes, performance has improved to the point that I think it would definitely give the Boss a run for its money. My next step is to swap in Ford Racing springs to lower the car a tad, another inexpensive change which will be well under the price of a base Boss without having to endure all of the boy racer stripping. The Mustang GT is an incredible performance bargain.

IL drivers are trained by Consumer Reports. Before launch, they have to adjust the mirrors, retighten the seat belts, and confirm the cup holder count.

That explains the difference in the times.