2011 Tokyo Auto Show: 2013 Subaru BRZ...Finally

I'm also a little shocked that they are so similar. They even have the same wheels in the photos! I think subaru is going wrong with their approach. They really should have offered theirs with the AWD at least if not a little more power on top of it to keep with their brand identity that they have built and to give a difference between the two. only time will tell i guess...

Despite all of Subaru's missteps in recent years (Tribeca, Baja, ugly Imprezas) this is the worst. Why, because they are a small manufacturer and get their consumer traffic by differentiating themselves. Here they have created a Miata competitor. The Miata is an outstanding car and still sells in small numbers. Now, we instantly have 2 new competitors and one of them has the advantage of Toyota/Scions distribution/dealer network. There are some design differences between this and the 86 but this is essentially a Vibe/Matrix deal. So why would anyone looking for a small lightweight performance car go to a Subaru dealer? Well Subaru could have outfitted this with AWD but they didn't so there's no differentiation and no relationship with their US lineup and marketing strategy. This is just a silly effort. (And I'm not talking about the car here which might be very good. I'm assuming that it's fun but not as fun as the Miata which is why I question its value.)

I know it was too much to ask for them to look as different as the Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice, but I thought they'd at least get different headlights and taillights. There's more differentiation between the USDM and JDM Civic sedans, even though there's no good reason for that!

It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the car, but it's disappointing nonetheless. Then again, maybe no design is better than a typical Subaru design...

I'm guessing they kept them so similar because they figured people who bought this car would be into customizing. makes it easier for aftermarket body kits, tailights, headlights, fenders, hoods, spoilers, etc. only have to make one to cover both models...?

No, Subaru could not have put AWD into this. It was never designed to have AWD.
Go look at where the engine sits in the BRZ and where it sits in any AWD Subaru.

Also, this is a smart move for Subaru. They were making this car for Toyota anyway, so all they really had to do was slap a Subaru badge on it and sell it.

I can't believe this is coming out of my mouth . . . I dare say, the nose of the Toyota looks better. Now, about that paltry torque figure . . .

hey it's an FR-S with a mouthgaurd. Worst, rebadge ever, not even GM was this blatant at its worst. Can't believe they didn't even change the wheels.

carlisimo: " I thought they'd at least get different headlights and taillights"

Look closely. Closer. Closer. Ok, pull out that magnifying glass. There ARE differences between the headlights, taillights, and foglights. Other differences that I can see: fender accents, front bumper, exhaust tips, center caps, trunk trim, spoiler (though this appears to be optional).

Still not as blatantly badge engineered as the Starion/Conquest of the 80's. literally on those just the badges were changed. as an owner of one I kind of see the toyobaru in the same light. I'm sure the car will build up a reputation and the controversy over the similarities will only serve for more garage talk debate.

@elgac: I may have not been clear. Of course there's no way THIS car could have AWD. Subaru's mistake was designing a car that could have AWD. You stated that they designed this for Toyota and Subaru needs to do is change the badge and sell it. Well I guess that's what they're doing but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. They didn't differentiate this car much from the 86 so people don't have to go to a Subaru dealer to get into this type of car. They either go to a Scion dealer and get into the exact same car or to a Mazda dealer and get in something that is likely more fun. They're not going to sell it to anyone as an impulse buy because everyone in their showroom is looking for a car with 4 doors and AWD. So that's going to leave them to sell this vehicle based on price which starts to feel really odd for a car that was supposed to be a "halo car."

Meet the ft-86 a heavier slightly bigger almost the same power to weight miata

I will say that this is the ONLY car that would get me into a Subaru showroom. Might I find something else I like, maybe, but I had no reason to go until now. Kudos.

justinlink

"Now, about that paltry torque figure . . ."

151 lb-ft is just fine for 2,689 lb (2789/151 = 17.8)

compare that with '12 miata at 140 lb-ft for 2,480 lb (2480/140 = 17.7)

is there any so-called "torque-rich" vehicle in this price range that can beat it in any acceleration discipline? maybe 0-60 in a WRX or Evo if you abuse the clutch from a full stop. will be interesting to see 1/4 ET -and- trap speed

@windsor5 (and everyone else comparing this to a Miata)

2 seats and a soft top are deal-breakers for a lot of people. At the very least that combo results in higher insurance rates.

It looks almost exactly like the Scion FRS "prototype" at SEMA. And that isn't a bad thing as that car was absolutely stunning in person.

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/non-make/ot/ot_103111119_717.jpg
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/non-make/ot/ot_103111121_717.jpg

As for the badge engineering, it is kind of a "so what" issue. As long as the car drives and feels as good as it looks, whether it comes from a Subaru, Toyota or Scion dealer won't matter much.

No AWD means this car will never be in my garage.

Also, Subaru a brand that has always stood for individuality and uniqueness (at least here in North America), now has a badge-engineered sibling? No thanks. I'll pass.

7driver I get the soft top be a deal breaker I get the insurance but those seats are useless I am sorry they just add weight. But the real question is where is the market honda stopped the s2000 for a reason....

My prediction combined toyota/suburu sales will not exceed 20,000

7driver, the Miata's insurance is pretty good, and with some insurers (like AAA) it's quite a bit cheaper than an Accord or Civic.

And for those who wanted AWD... well, the rest of us wanted that low center of gravity and low polar moment of inertia. I don't see how AWD could've been incorporated without really screwing it up.

I have to say, it's the best looking car Subaru has ever built, and that's coming from a WRX owner. I can also see how Subaru can get away with this. Keep in mind this is a company that offered a "Tuner Ready" trim level in the WRX for years. Many kids bought up WRX's because we saw the rally cars drifting around and wanted to do the same. Except its pretty hard to drift my WRX. I can get the back end out, but as soon as I hit the gas the front tires pull it strait again and you just go. So now Subaru offers a car that can drift... and the aftermarket will have hop up parts for these cars like crazy. I'm sure Cobb and Perrin already have kits ready to go.

"151 lb-ft is just fine for 2,689 lb (2789/151 = 17.8). compare that with '12 miata at 140 lb-ft for 2,480 lb (2480/140 = 17.7)"

That 151 lb-ft of torque in the BRZ comes in at a lofty 6600 rpms, whereas the Mazda realizes max torque a full 1600 rpms sooner. The BRZ will need to be high in the revs to make any power, so I hope it's a close ratio 6 speed.

"is there any so-called "torque-rich" vehicle in this price range that can beat it in any acceleration discipline? maybe 0-60 in a WRX or Evo if you abuse the clutch from a full stop. will be interesting to see 1/4 ET -and- trap speed."

What about the Mazdaspeed3? And why would an EVO or WRX need to abuse the clutch? At 6600 rpms, I think you'd need all the clutch dump you can get to get this thing off the line with any hurry, weight nothwithstanding.

@7driver: Insurance on my 2011 Maita is the same as my 2006 TSX. Truthfully, it's not an expensive car to insure. Anyone who's adverse to a soft top could get the hardtop.

@rsholland

Subaru has had some badge engineered vehicles in their time like the Justy in North America, and in Japan and other parts of Europe Subaru currently sells Kei sized vehicles that were developed by Toyota by way of Daihatsu (that's who!) so this really isn't anything earth shattering.

@ dinobot666:

I'm fully aware of what Subaru has offered in terms of FWD and/or badge-engineered cars, here and elsewhere. Their North American product since 1995 has been exclusively AWD. They've been involved with 4WD since the early '70s.

Subaru's image of late has been built around being 100% AWD in North America, and on being defiantly individualistic. Not so any more, with this model.

I often dont agree with rsholland but he makes a good point.

"I'm fully aware of what Subaru has offered in terms of FWD and/or badge-engineered cars, here and elsewhere. Their North American product since 1995 has been exclusively AWD. They've been involved with 4WD since the early '70s.

Subaru's image of late has been built around being 100% AWD in North America, and on being defiantly individualistic. Not so any more, with this model."

Why is Suby taking all the heat here, they seemingly engineered most of the car so why is it an abomination if they offer it. I predict Suby will have no problem selling these since they have a rabid fan base of performance enthusiasts and this car captures the JDM mojo of this crowd. Despite the facts that journalists have compared it more to a Lotus than a typical Suby you feel the car is not worth offering no matter how good it performs because it's not AWD. Also, please keep in mind it's highly unlikely with impending CAFE standards that any brand will be able to AWD only indefinitely. Also, this gives them a natural second car to sell to someone who already has a WRX, so their is probably a pent up demand/market for this car inside Subaru's enthusiast community. That said, since I'm not a shareholder, but merely an enthusiast, (in this company though I've been known to have stakes in others), I'll leave the marketing strategy to the company who most likely has thought this out better than forum gurus.

I don't remember the Justy's counterpart being sold in the US the way the BRZ and 86 will be.

Badge engineering is less of a big deal if the two badges aren't competing for the same buyers.

From a marketing effort this is as half assed as when GM used its influence to get the Imprezza and WRX rebadged with a Saab nose to create the 9-2 (although the Saab nose actually was better than the Subie nose at that point). If Subaru couldn't afford a clearly different body they should just have taken the engineering payment and left the car to Toyota.

I actually find quite a bit of family resemblance here between the production BRZ and the current Legacy and new Impreza, especially in the nose and fenders.

Comparisons to the Miata are inevitable, but I don't see someone buying a Miata for all the same reasons as they would an 86/FR-S/BRZ. Miata is a two-seat convertible. The Toyobaru is a 2+2 hatchback. Distinct differences. While the initial reason for buying either is the same (lightweight, affordable fun), the Miata will appeal to sun seekers and those not as worried about any sort of utility, while the Toyobaru offers the utility of those back seats and a hatch area.

And here we go with acceleration/power-to-weight comparisons. I'm tired of reading all the stats racing. It has no application to real life unless you're ACTUALLY planning on racing cars. You go test drive the car. You like how it drives or you don't. Period.

And in this car's defense, while the power-to-weight may be close to the Miata's, there are key factors that would make this car a potentially more exhilarating drive. 1) A coupe inherently has more bending rigidity than an open top roadster, which will aid in attaining more precise handling, and 2) that boxer engine is assuredly mounted lower in the chassis than would be possible with Mazda's I4, which will also help with more precise handling.

Complain complain complain. That's all I hear. So very very sad to know that people who claim to be car enthusiasts are in fact posing as such. New sports cars should be celebrated, not berated. Seems like sports cars were getting very hard to come buy for a little while there, especially at a price the average Joe could afford new. Now we have some more options, and people want to complain all day about it.

Basically, I'd go for either version of this car, it just depends on which dealerships are closer, which have the better customer service, which will give me a better deal, and which company offers the better warranty.

coolb944, I think this car has a trunk, not a hatch. And from the interior pictures it looks like there's zero rear legroom when the front seats are at a normal position. But still, you have a point. A lot of Miata owners have always wanted a closed coupe like this one. I have one and I like that it's a convertible, but I would give that up to have emergency rear seats.

I think this car will have trouble besting the Miata's suspension (the 86/BRZ has front struts, doesn't it?) but I'd never notice the difference.

I had a mind set that a car with a max torque at low rpms would be more fun to drive than one that had the hp and torque at high rpms. I was wrong. The Juke is an example of a turbo with full torque at about 2K. I have driven it, and it is hard to drive. The car just seems to leap and bound. Too much torque down low.
There is much more "play" room in a car with the torque up high. Sure, it is going to have a lower 0-60, but who cares? The important thing in a car with sporting pretentions is having fun.

Gay. They look exactly the same.

Toyota should learn something from Hyundai.

"Toyota should learn something from Hyundai."

Like what? Building pig-like cars?

@carlisimo

My mistake on the trunk, I realized that after. But still, you have the practicality of folding the seats down for increased cargo capacity. And I would say the extra back seats are more practical for added space and decreased insurance premiums rather than for actual usage, in the way the 911 or XK have back seats.

And I really don't see how the Miata's suspension design is somehow much better than that employed on these cars. BMW and Porsche seem to make great use of a MacPherson strut front/Multilink rear setup, as can be seen in the 911 suspension walk-around just posted here on Straightline, or the much vaunted 3 series. The lower position of the engine and the better body rigidity of these cars I think will definitely help the driving experience when compared to the Miata, though you just never know. Engineers can often take a winning setup and screw up the tuning. Doesn't sound from the prototype drives that they have though.

Are there any differences in the tail section of these two twins, other than the batch and maybe the tailpipes? Looks to me that they are identical; bumper, taillights (other than the red side reflectors on the Subaru), trunk lid, rear quarter panel, etc...

I'm amazed people are complaining about this car. I personally think it has really good lines. It reminds me a lot of a smaller 370Z. I think its a slick looking ride. If i wasn't so tall, i'd even consider one.

This car has all the ingredients for success that many older iconic cars had, front engine - rear drive, potent 4 cyl rev-happy engine, manual tranny, light weight, etc.. It'll be an awesome tuner car, I can't wait to see what people do to these. I'm really anxious to see the final production performance stats.. I'm guessing by the current weight and engine stats - high 6's / low 7's - 0-60, mid to high 15 sec 1/4 mile, and electronically limited to about 135-145mph top speed.. Which would be a fantastic starting base for a really fun project / track car.

I'm excited to see this cars future.. I'm also willing to bet that Subaru releases a more "Subaru" version of it very soon (possible turbo, tuned suspension, aero package, etc.)..

Good stuff.

jusinlink:

>That 151 lb-ft of torque in the BRZ comes in at a lofty 6600 rpms, whereas the Mazda realizes max torque a full 1600 rpms sooner. The BRZ will need to be high in the revs to make any power, so I hope it's a close ratio 6 speed.

Peak is only one point on a graph. I want to see the rest.

>What about the Mazdaspeed3?

forgot about that one. but the fwd...ick

> And why would an EVO or WRX need to abuse the clutch?

turbo lag. and yes, I've driven a WRX

No doubt, hard to understand the whining.

So both manufacturers are targeting the same market with the same vehicle. Makes no sense to me. So I wonder if either version will sell very well. Perhaps it will be the tuner market that will really make these cars come alive. For now, the Toyota version has more appeal for me.

A Saab 9-2X is more Subaru than BRZ is.

clarification needed: there's not going to be a subaru AND a scion in the US market with this body right...that may sound like a dumb question...but they worked together so who gets ownership?

@louis: "Also, "pull something out at the last minute"? Seriously?! Do you think Subaru is like a mom-and-pop bodyshop that they can just change the design whenever they want? Personally I hope you were joking because I am sure you know how big companies with "processes" function."

I think what he meant was hoping they had something else planned ahead of time that had more style differentiation, but they were just playing it close to their chest. I know I was hoping for some surprise since we've seen so much for so long.

Windsor says:

"I get the soft top be a deal breaker I get the insurance but those seats are useless I am sorry they just add weight. But the real question is where is the market honda stopped the s2000 for a reason...."

@ windsor
(1) You are wrong about the seats. As long as I can set a kids booster seat in the back...even one on the passenger side its a deal *maker*. Its a lot better for me than my S2k or a Miata, as long as everything else is good.

(2) I disagree about the market---yes Honda sold an ever-decreasing amount of S2000s and stopped the production but the Miata sold almost 1 million copies. This is priced much better than the S2K and it will hit a different buyer.

AWD would ruin this car, more power would be nice but again not needed. Toyota and Subaru are trying to follow the Miata example here less weight, low cost low HP purist handling fun. I doubt they will make a more powerful version of this car and they won't really need to this thing will sell.

What's with all the Miata comparisons? Miata might be fun to drive but it's got chick car written all over it.

Since this is a badge-engineered Toyota, for all intents and purposes, perhaps the standard transmission will actually shift decently and not put to shame something you'd find on a commercial truck, as would the manual box found on most Subarus, which shift like they have dog gears even though they don't. Subaru attracts the ex-hippie patchouli sniffing crowd that Volvo used to like flies on excrement, so having a car normal people might like can only boost sales. Being stuck as a fringe car for fringe weirdos isn't much of a sales strategy in the long-term.

Some people in here are crazy, Subaru guys don't cross shop with Toyota's, I don't care that this is the same body style as the Toyota, the front end is different and it is a Subaru, it is basically the best looking car they have put out in quite a few years (aka no boy racer wing). It is a driving car not a rally car so, rear wheel drive is just fine. Horsepower numbers are good for the weight of the car, as well as the torque. Not every car made has to have 300hp and the same torque. Personally I think it will drive great and will sell more than they can get in for the first couple of years. I am just glad it is finally here (that's really my only gripe, that the concept took so long to get to production.)

Hahaha, all that time for this?

Too look almost exactly like the Toyota offering?

Toyobaru, welcome to the world!

Oh wait, its a Scionbarutoyo. LOL

I have to admit with most people that Subaru should have did something to separate itself from the Scion. If not in looks then in performance. The Scion could have been watered down a bit by taking away the LSD and having about 10-15hp less than the BRZ. Its a $25K Scion... Scion! WTF are they thinking! Is this the Japanese GM now!

The BRZ and the JDM 86 could be the same mechanically since Toyota wanted the 86 to be like the 86 of old. It doesnt make sense business wise for Toyota to go against Subaru with the same exact vehicle. It will be the Vibe vs Matrix all over again. The 86 has No history with the Scion brand so this is a Toyota screw up, not Subaru.

The Vibe and Matrix had enough differentiation between the two but a huge creation like a rear-drive sports coupe by Toyota and Subaru.....all we get is badge engineering. They missed the mark not making two DIFFERENT versions of this car!!!

I think most people posting have the wrong idea about the development of this car. Let's go through a few details:

1. Toyota was a 16.5% partner in this venture. That means Subaru put up 83.5% of the capital. Think about that.
2. Subaru independently developed the car from the ground up. That means they designed all the mechanicals for the car.
3. Toyota did, in fact, contribute technically to the car: the cylinder heads are from Toyota. And apparently they had a few meetings with Subaru people, too.
4. Toyota was in charge of the design. That's what their 16.5% was worth. Oh, excuse me, that and cylinder heads.

I bring up these points because many posters seem to be under the impression that this is a "re-badged Toyota." From a clear, sober and unbiased look at the facts, we can see that this is not the case. This car is a Subaru that Toyota helped out with.

Further, this car is NOT a hachiroku (as the AE86 is known in Japanese). Nowhere near it. Not even close. I work for the Japanese government, and multiple Japanese colleagues have dismissed this car as an overpriced, underpowered imposter. I am wont to agree with them. Apart from the FR layout, it shares no resemblance technically or in spirit to the hachiroku. No high-revving inline-4. No usable trunk and backseat (Yes, the FR-S has a backseat, but the hachiroku was a Corolla, with all the daily usability of a Corolla. The same can't be said of this thing.). Too much weight. Too low (the hachiroku was famous for sitting quite high up for a car its size, but performing well in spite of that). Overwide tires (the hachiroku was also known for copious grip on skinny tires, much like early to mid-90s Honda Civics that many of us enjoyed). Too expensive.

And on top of it all, as a slap in the face to all hachiroku lovers and Initial D fanatics (which I am and I'm sure many here are also), and as a clear example of how Toyota has all but forgotten it's history and heritage, the first photos we got of the 86 had it in orange. For hachiroku lovers, any car sharing the name deserves only to be painted in the legendary panda black and white color scheme. To me, this is the saddest part of the story. It's not just that Toyota failed to create a true successor to the hachiroku, but they have no memory of what the hachiroku really was.

What we can draw from my brief analysis is that Toyota's role is one of marketing necessity. Subaru, a subsidiary of the giant Fuji Heavy Industries, could have found that 16.5% themselves to develop a 4-cylinder FR if they wanted to. But then media outlets, like InsideLine, wouldn't have overhyped it like they have the FR-S, would they? Automobile journalists lapped up the "return" of Toyota to building sports cars. They crooned over the "return" of the hachiroku. And automobile fans like us followed suit. Well guys, we've been had. This car is not a hachiroku. It's not even a Toyota. This car was designed by Subaru, uses a flat-four, a mark of pride for Subaru as a carmaker, and is built in a Subaru factory.

Keep calling it a Toyota if you like. It's probably fun to think about Toyota once again building sports cars like the Supra, Celica GT-4, MR2 and the AE86 Levin/Trueno. But understand that that is not what's happening. Toyota threw a few bucks at Subaru, then stepped back and let the professionals do the work.