Spy Photos: Toyota FT-86 / Scion FR-S Race Car by Gazoo

I agree with the comment above. Time to bring affordable rwd cars back. While you're at it, how about a small fun to drive affordable sedan for those of us with kids. Oh, and offer it with a manual transmission too. Mazda, are you listening?

stovt001 - agreed. I was holding out for this car but got bored with the wait and bought a lightly used 2010 GTI instead. The FT-86 will be a much needed RWD addition to the entry-level sporty coupe segment though.

the unfortunate thing about this car is that it wont be "entry level rwd coupe" at least in my book when i think "entry level car" i think sub 20k car but all directions point to the car being 22-24k base price

@ stovt001,

Find me a new RWD coupe that sits 4, weighs less than 2,800 lbs with 200 hp that goes for less than $25k.

Do you see what I just did? I listed five criterias: Drivetrain, type of car, weight, powertrain and price. None of them is hard to achieve when they stand alone but when you put them together, then you got a tough question to solve.

I rest my case.

stovt001:

When was the last time a RWD sports coupe sold like hot cakes? RWD and usable rear seats do not co-exist in a small coupe. If the best modern-day sports coupe (ala Mazda Miata) sells 10k annually, it doesn't take much to figure out that the market is tiny.

The only fun to drive car that I remember was the Integra (although it's FWD), although reliability and practicality certainly helps.

I'm not saying the market isn't tiny. It's just that there isn't anything really groundbreaking or exotic here. Louis, you don't make a convincing case WHY those criteria should be particularly difficult to put together, nor do sales explain why you'd announce a car, bring out concept after concept after concept while just punting the actual product down the road. We didn't see that happen with the Genesis coupe.

Well, car companies have to answer to shareholders, and what they want primarily aren't exciting cars - it's all about the Benjamins baby

And that's why you see monstrosities like the Murano convertible and the BMW X6 being built - they probably didn't cost much to build (with existing parts) and retool, yet they'll tap into a niche market. In other words, if the ROI looks good, they'll go for it.

@ stovt001,

1. Does the FR-S/BRZ share platform with other cars?
2. What kind of cars are currently sold for less than $25k?
3. What's the average price for cars with a 200hp engine mated to a 6-speed manual?
4. What cars currently on the market weigh less than 2,800 lbs?

The Genesis coupe shares a lot of parts with other Hyundai products (platform and engine just to name a few...) but the FR-S/BRZ is being built from the ground up. I don't remember when Toyota announced the development of FT-86/FR-S but I think it was less than 5 years ago. Just because they show a concept at every major auto show doesn't mean they are "dragging on" the development process. Sure I would like to see this car hit the dealers as soon as possible but I rather them do a good job than get something half-baked to the enthusiasts.

I don't know... maybe it's just me but I would think that "enthusiasts" normally won't bitch about a car company that uses actual racing to benchmark and validate performance.

As a Toyota and Lexus owner, I am glad to see that Toyota is using the same method to develop a $25k performance car as they did with a $375k exotic super car. That's dedication to the enthusiasts and something I would never bitch about.

It'll be nice when Toyota offers a sporty car with a stick again.

I agree with Wei, Toyota finally track tuning cars is a good sign. Long overdue.

I have to agree with many, not all of the above comments. The market could use a small, sporty car and in the case of Toyota, something in the spirit of the first generation Celica. There is still a case for RWD, sub-20 thousand base price with ride and handling of a pure sports coupe.

Spend less on exotic powerplants and technology, give me something fun to drive and a car which might also appeal and be affordable. Perhaps targeted for somebody in their early twenties, done post-secondary education and ready to enjoy life.

My Miata has one-handed top operation. Name one other two seat RWD convertible around $20,000 that has that. And it didn't take this long to come to market.

You see the flaw in using very narrowly defined criteria for making an argument like that? Anyone can do the exact same thing to make the opposite case.

@garrym:

I think the days of the sub-$20k much of anything are pretty much over. Heck, even a Fiesta can easily top $20k. A light-weight, 200hp, low-volume, RWD coupe? I'll be surprised if they're able to keep it around $25k.

It looks like a Supra. They should put a twin turbo V6 in this and sell it for $40,000.

"My Miata has one-handed top operation. Name one other two seat RWD convertible around $20,000 that has that. And it didn't take this long to come to market."

Your Miata isn't exactly ALL NEW, but the FR-S/BRZ is. By the way, do you know exactly how long it took Mazda to develop the first generation Miata?

Do you know that it's pretty normal to take about 5 years to design a completely new car from the ground up? Heck, it's even normal to take 5 years to design something that's not so completely new...

By the way, I didn't come up with that "narrowly defined criteria", Toyota did apparently. Again, I would think real enthusiasts won't bitch about when a car company is trying to challenge itself with "narrowly defined criteria". Toyota can really just use the IS250/350 platform, chop off two doors, down-grade the interior, beef up the suspension, keep the same 2GR-FSE in there and then call it a day. That car will weigh about 3,400 lbs, sell for $30k and then bitched by the so-called enthusiasts because it's over-weight and over-priced. So instead, Toyota is trying to answer the mail by tackling a chanllenging situation but apparently that's not good enough for some enthusiats because they show us too many concepts...

WTF seriously?

It's not an all new car though. It's a slightly modified Impreza chassis with an FB series boxer four which is also nothing new. Toyota isn't doing anything but trying to rake in more benjammins. otherwise, they'd be building it themselves, with a new chassis, new engines, and a real purpose, other than to ride on the laurels of the AE86 name. This car is, and always will be, a joke.

"It's a slightly modified Impreza chassis"

Really? First of all, Impreza is AWD so you don't just "slightly" modified an AWD chassis to make a RWD one, that's your first mistake. Second, according to IL... "Although Subaru has made all-wheel drive an integral part of its brand DNA, the sports car is built on a unique rear-wheel-drive platform, and Japanese sources familiar with the program say there are no plans for an AWD version".

http://www.insideline.com/toyota/ft-86/more-details-on-the-2012-toyobaru.html

"with an FB series boxer four which is also nothing new"

From FT-86's chief engineer Tetsuya Tada when asked about the engine being Subaru’s flat four “D4-S” boxer engine:

"No,no, no – it is a completely new engine. The engine is still a boxer. The technology, even the engine block are completely new. Everything is new. The only thing that remained are the mounting points.”

The article for the interview can be found on The Truth About Cars.

So here we go... you are batting 0 for 2, which means your bashing isn't really gaining any credibility at this point.

Wishful thinking....

Lets make the FR-S and BRZ be brothers and the FT-86 be the new supra.

With current technology similar power (to the 93-99 supra) from a smaller more fuel efficient engine can be achieved and actually cost less or the same. A 3.0 or even a 2.8 turbo inline or V6 can easily get 350HP and 28MPG

Anyone recognize the wheels? Sort of looks like Enkei PF01s, except for the added holes between the lug nuts. Nice looking wheels.

And lets all calm down a bit. We all love cars here. No need to get picky with each other.

I am wondering how long did it take Hyundai to design the new Sonata, Equus, Veloster, Genesis.
Same for KIA....how long for the Optima, Forte....

anybody know?

Toyota is taking on this look that makes their cars look almost like they're built out of lego's and it looks really cool! This version looks pretty close to production too and I think it looks to be worth the wait so far. As long as they don't slap a huge sticker on it, this will make an awesome new Scion!

I like everything about it, except for the hideous and childish spoiler. Toyota please make it optional.

@stovt001

What do you mean, the Miata didn't take long to come to market? The Miata project (code named P729) began with a design study in 1984. From start to finish, that's 5 years to market. I don't think we've been talking about the FT-86 for that long...

It may not seat 4 but if you're looking for a great rwd car for under 20k, that also has one of the best shifters in the world, razor sharp handling, sorry the Honda S2000 is the hands down winner. I understand some people don't like convertibles but they do sell very nice hard tops. It obviously isn't meant to be drag raced but for pure handling and the driving excitement the S2000 definitely delivers. I've been waiting for this FT-86, FR-S, BRZ... for quite some time and looking forward to possibly purchasing this car for a daily driver and putting the S2000 away for the weekends. At the same time Spy Photos of the Supercharged V6 Genesis Coupe has caught my attention.

chikoo says:

"I am wondering how long did it take Hyundai to design the new Sonata, Equus, Veloster, Genesis.
Same for KIA....how long for the Optima, Forte....

anybody know?"

It took Hyundai 20 years to be taken seriously in the U.S. Then it was easy once they realized they can make cars that resemble other cars.

Am I the only one who has noticed that this car has front/forward mounted brake callipers?

This is usually needed in front-engined front-drive cars and means that the steering rack is mounted behind of the front axle-line which compromises steering feel, response and purity.

Does anyone know why this would be needed in the case of a front-engined rear drive car like the FR-S?
I think the Nissan 370Z uses a similar set-up and I don't understand why ?

@louiswei

Yes, it is a modified Impreza chassis. It's not that hard to do. All you do to make an all wheel drive chassis a rear drive chassis is.... wait for it.... REMOVE THE FRONT AXLE SHAFTS.

I actually WORK at a Subaru dealer. I promise you I know more about this car than you do. The engine is part of the FB family of engines which, itself, is a new version of the EJ series engines. The combustion chamber has changed shape to allow for Toyotas "direct injection," which is really far more complicated than other companies' versions, and the FB is chain driven instead of belt driven. Apart from that, there's not much else that's different. There are just small changes here and there which, to me, does not make it a "brand new engine."

http://www.tune86.com/ft-86-content/toyota-ft-86-concept-and-ft-86-g-sports-concept-technical-facts

Here's a link that gives some more info about the chassis. This is only one. would you like more?

In response to Mr. Wei you are quite correct sir. Remember the Pontiac Fiero and the ill fated Solstice?

In response to Mr. Wei you are quite correct sir. Remember the Pontiac Fiero and the ill fated Solstice?

Wikipedia?! Ok, whatever...

1. On the platform: Are we sure for 100% that the FR-S is using the same platform as the first FT-86? Google it then you'll see the answer is really not clear on that.

2. On the engine: You may work at a Subaru dealer but I am going to take FT-86 chief engineer's words over yours until he was proven wrong.

Well of course the chief engineer is going to say that it's "all new." What kind of chief engineer would say "well, it's pretty much new, but it's mostly reused tech."

and all they've changed from FT-86 to FR-S is the name and shape. barely.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2013-subaru-brz2.htm

And my real point is that this engine wasn't even designed for this car. It's part of Subaru's new family of engines. It's not a Toyota engine, nor is it unique to this car. It's only unique to this car in tune.

"And my real point is that this engine wasn't even designed for this car."

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/19/scion-fr-s-designed-with-a-rollcage-in-mind-and-other-key-tidbit/

Follow the link to the actual article...

"The engine? It's still EJ20 based shape. But Toyota re-casted everything, even down to the engine block with a new design, and with the Yamaha acoustics assigned to make every pulse, beat, and soul of air and vibration to become something to spice performance and tactile feel. Not much is exactly shared with the Subaru engine except the flat four configurations. However, the external mounting points remain the same as the Subaru EJ20, shared for very obvious reasons. That is so YOU can use a Subaru engine to swap if you PREFER the Subaru engine for racing. Why bother with complex fabrication, if Subaru has something you can use from 11 years of WRC?"

I don't see that on that page. All I see there is stuff about the roll cage mounting points.

If this is all true then that's exciting. I really hope Yamaha is involved with this. I was under the impression that they weren't

I think the reason I'm so pissed about this car is because; A. I grew up a Toyota fanatic. Then Toyota got too concerned making Priuses (I refuse to call them Prii) to bother taking care of its enthusiast fan base. and B. Because it's taken them way too long to come out with this thing. I have a feeling when it comes to market it will be lukewarm.

Is that what I want? Hell no. I'm not here because I hate Toyota and get off by pissing and moaning about them. I'm here because I'm an enthusiast who has been burned by this company and yeah, I've got an axe to grind.

"I don't see that on that page. All I see there is stuff about the roll cage mounting points."

Click on 'News Source: Club4AG.com' then that should take you to this page:

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=95050

Scroll down to the post that was posted on 2:25 PM 7/16/2011, should be the 10th post from the top.

As for Toyota taking too long to get the FR-S out, the first FT-86 concept was first shown at the October 2009 Tokyo Motor Show, that's only two years from today! Unless something happens then it's pretty much a done deal that the FR-S will hit the dealers by next year. I mean, seriously, do we really want a half-baked product or we want Toyota to take a little bit longer and get this thing right?

The Scion FRS will be out by April from what I have been told.

I have a feeling those rubbers are not making it onto the production version >.>

Expensive is spelled wrong in the 2nd paragrapgh. It's spelled "expencive" in the article.

How the hell can you believe something like consumerautoguide.com or whatever on their take of what platform was used and all and they themselves haven't even driven the car, let alone actually see it's guts? Who/what is their source for this information? As for Toyota redoing the Subie engine, how do you know that Toyota didn't take the engine and make it better? Just food for thought. Look at all the cool Toyota engines that actually have a stronger reputation for performance and reliability. I'm sure they know what they're doing.

Toyota should take some time to prep this thing for production. I don't care how long as long as they meet the expectations. The LFA took ALMOST a decade to develop and although the price tag is quite steep, I can safely say they've met the expectations.

Plus if you look at it this way, Toyota have gone through a lot of problems by the past years from the Global economic downturn of 2008, the rising competition from South Korea and the recent catastrophe that hit Japan.

I'm sure Toyota can pull this off but I fear they wont especially with the recent release of the new Camry which was a huge let down for me at least.

The 2012 camry was at first a let down, But as a toyota salesman I can say there is more to come. the Camry was the #1 selling car (even with the downturn, the recalls, and the tsunami/eart quake)for a reason, that was because it was the perfect combo of style, reliablilty, qualilty and dependililty the 2012 Camry is about evolution not revolution. This FRS will be a great car and as Scion it will have loads of aftermarket performance parts to make it even better. Toyota is very careful about thier products and they won't let this be another Pontiac Aztek/Fiero, 1998 Ford Taurus.

I can understand why it SEEMS like a long time to wait for the car to come out, but I think the case has been made fairly well that an all-new car takes about 5 years to develop.

But on top of that, it's important to note that Toyota and Subaru have continued full steam ahead with development of the FT-86 in spite of the devastating earthquake and tsunami of March 11th hitting Japan's northeastern coast. Even with global supply chain disruptions and severe power supply shortages, no delay in the production or release schedule of these vehicles has been announced. If you ask me, that is quite a feat.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I work for the Japanese government, and it has been part of my job to stay on top of the situation surrounding the earthquake and its aftermath.