IL Track Tested: 2012 Lexus LFA Vs. 2011 Porsche 911 GT2 RS

Pleasantly surprised.

How many cars run a slalom at 75 MPH?
That has to be a record!

Look how close the quarters are!
BD

No Brainier....Porsche over Sports Car Impostor any time...Porsche is a Driver's car the other is just a 375K glorified video game...

"Engine Type: DOHC, 3.6-liter V6" - Lexus LFA

... thought it was a V10

"Engine Type: DOHC, 3.6-liter V6" - Lexus LFA

... thought it was a 4.8 liter V10

Those 911s aren't so quick without those fancy launch contro/dual clutch theatrics.

trap speed for the LF-A isnt that impressive for the cost of the car, especially considering it really has over 600hp.

"How many cars run a slalom at 75 MPH?
That has to be a record!"

I think they've had Porsche models hit that number. ZR1 did as well I believe.

Where's the video? I want to see these cars move, not just read about it.

huntersrun,
Yes, the LFA is a "video game" and not a driver's car. Josh Jacquot doesn't have a clue what he is doing when he praises it while driving down GMR and through the track test above. But you sure do.

1487
"I think they've had Porsche models hit that number. ZR1 did as well I believe."

ZR1 was 74.7
Like most of your posts, your background research is somewhere between desperate swings of hatred and errors brought on by delusions of persecution

The LFA has THE BEST slalom ever tested here, until proven otherwise, got it?
BD

"Yes, the LFA is a "video game" and not a driver's car. Josh Jacquot doesn't have a clue what he is doing when he praises it while driving down GMR and through the track test above. But you sure do."

Real enthusiasts should be encouraged by the wide variety of technical wonders these manufacturers provide, regardless of their personal bias.

I mean, here you have a major manufacturer showing off their technical prowess while fully knowing it's a non-profitable venture, and these armchair experts are bashing the car sight unseen. Sad indeed.

Inside Line, what did the GT2RS dyno? I'm assuming it was on the same rollers. Also, assuming you guys are using a VBOX, what are the 60-130 mph times of both cars. This is a standard forum test and would greatly appreciate it.

I understand that this car is not meant to be a straight-line car, and it shows. Lexus, though, needs to realize that the American market is a tough one. Those trap speeds are terrible. I hope they can do something about this so Corvette and GT-R owners would shut up for once.

Why did IL not use the SAME driver for both sets of test runs, so as to rule out variances caused by less or more skill ?

Senna
It's already beaten the pushed GT-R and the fastest RWD Porsche could build through the quarter
Trap speeds are the last bastion for desperate haters.

Leave them with something!
BD

I'm far from a hater BD. Trap speeds give you a good indication on how well a car will perform in any roll race scenario and how much power the car is really making. This test shows that the IL's dynos overate the power and the car could perhaps be making its advertised amount.

The GTR and GT2 RS don't need to fret, they're still faster on the Nurburgring... Especially the new GTR.

Also, the 0-60 on the GTR is 2.9 with a foot of rollout. Not to mention, the GTR is a far more forgiving car so its consistently faster for real world stop light antics.

Now I've been a Nissan owner/fan since I got a 1991 Q45, but I really dislike the styling of the GTR. Its just baffling how it doesn't need to resort to carbon fibre everything and V8/10/12 engines, to shatter records. Porsche can do that because they're so small in comparison with other supercars but the GTR is quite large in person.

Trap speed, especially for cars like this, is far, far more indicative of the performance you'll get using the car as designed. For example, the 1/4 mile trap speed leader would likely also be the leader in the 60-130 sprint.

This car appears to be very rewarding and satisfying to drive hard, which is an accomplishment, no doubt. Straightline performance is hardly the end-all of performance metrics. Frankly, most of these metrics are hardly the end-all. I can ackowledge that. But while I may concede that it is one of the most rewarding super cars to drive hard, the numbers are what the rest of us have to compare. And I'm not the only one using numbers to judge the car. It looks like the LFA is 200lbs heavier than the ZR1...maybe we can all stop mentioning the carbon fiber now. The Porsche is lighter than both of them.

Based on what I've read, the ZR1 seems to equal the LFA's ride/handling compromise, in that it rides well yet still puts up good numbers. The LFA is the more sophisticated chassis but the ZR1 ain't no slouch in that department, either.

The lack of manual seems like a bummer for a car that's meant to be driven and enjoyed but it is what it is.

Overall, I think THIS is the thread to discuss numbers. The threads about driving enjoyment on a curvy road don't necessarily relate to the numbers from this test.

"Like most of your posts, your background research is somewhere between desperate swings of hatred and errors brought on by delusions of persecution"

So you dont consider 74.7 to be close to 75mph? Wow, amazing. You're right, its the best ever slalom by far. Did you look up the Porsche figures? You probably did and I suspect there was another car that eclipsed the 75mph threshold.

In terms of trap speeds, the 911 turbo, ZR1 and SLS should top this car through the quarter. The Z06 can run 123mph through the quarter with "only" 505hp.

1487
For once, you are 100% right!

74.7 MPH is definitely close to 75MPH
BD

Seena
I didn't implicate you
I said "them", not "you"
BD

You can talk about the numbers all days here, but the informed buyers for the LFAs know that Lexus's goal for this car was about the best driving experience while going really fast.
There are multiple reports that the LFA does just that i.e. the drivers/testers pronounced the car is worth is price. It looks like it is doing it again with IL testers.
Also, remember that in all occasions Lexus simply drop off a regular LFA to be tested vs other test prepared supercars. That goes to show how much confidence they have in the LFA.

Nice showing by the Lexus, but it's not even a contest for me between these two. I'll take the Porsche and still be learning to drive to it's fullest after five years of ownership, rather than the Lexus and be driving it to it's fullest in five hours.

I respect the car for what it is, and it's nowhere near the electro-gimicked autobox the GT-R is. But I still prefer the physicality and intimacy the GT2 offers.

And it is kinda funny that a car that costs $100K+ less than this car and utilizes a mostly steel construction is lighter. And though it's not an end-all factor, the trap speeds prove which is the faster car. On the straights, the Porsche would leave this thing for dead.

GT2 RS is the fastest car in the Porsche stable both in a straight line and around the race track. It is the halo Porsche 911.

The reason why both cars have lower than expected trap speed is due to the density altitude of the race track.

Around the race track, Lexus LFA proved to be superior in its handling dynamics, but around Nurburgring Porsche GT2 RS would be as quick or maybe a bit quicker than the Lexus LFA.

Lexus LFA's best lap time around Nurburgring was 7:22 while GT2 RS had the best time of 7:18.

LFA for me, no doubt, if I am looking for an "everyday supercar" (is there such a thing).

The Porshce, will be car #5 or 6 in my garage when I hit the jackpot...

Porsche GT2 RS makes 640 HP and it weighs less than the LFA and is on racing slick tires.

Still, the Lexus LFA beat it around the race track and also equalled it's acceleration numbers. The lower than expected numbers are due to density altitude of the race track.

Otherwise, both these cars are easily 10.9 - 11.0 second cars.

That is practically astonishing.

Porsche GT2 RS makes 640 HP and is lighter because it is a stripped down track car. It has no amenities in the car let alone the luxuries of the Lexus LFA.

Still, the Lexus LFA equalled the GT2 RS in acceleration numbers and beat it around the race track and handling numbers. It also has a much more exciting engine.

Lexus LFA never ceases to amaze me.

Couple things.

1) If you look at Insideline's other tests at this facility, it seems as though mid 11's is about all the surface will allow for a 2WD car on street tires. The ZR1, the Hennesey CTS-V 700, etc. are all in the 11.5-11.7 range. Even the Z06 carbon ran an 11.8. So at this level of power, ET's are going to cluster around that traction limited time. Trap speeds, which are usually a good measure of power/weight, are also going to be affected somewhat as the cars get more powerful simply because you can't put the power down. Thus, as another poster called for, I support posting some of the higher speed acceleration intervals for these super cars.

2) A high boost turbo car with a conventional manual like the GT2RS needs special driving techniques. Since you can't really build much boost on the line, it requires some clutch slip to get a smooth launch. And on shifts, you've got to keep the throttle partially open or you lose way too much boost. This is where automated manuals shine since you can build boost on the starting line and you'll actually get a boost spike on shifts since you're keeping your foot in it and the ECU just pulls timing. I still don't care for automated manuals, but they make driving turbo cars fast much easier.

Church123: Well said.

The 640 HP Porsche GT2 RS is the fastest car in the Porsche stable. It has an official 0-60 mph time of 2.9 seconds.

That tells the track conditions were less than ideal. The density altitude of the track is also much high making the air thinner.

Both Lexus LFA and GT2 RS are 10.9 - 11.1 seconds 1/4 mile car on good tracks with low density altitude.

Dude, gt500svt, stop jocking the LF-A, it's unbecoming and you'll mess up the paint.

- Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are treaded, street legal tires. I wouldn't be surprised if the compound that the Bridgestones use (on the Lexus) is just is soft. Sport Cups do need some heating up to be most effective though. We always found they needed at least 1 full lap on the race track to get going. Couldn't heat them up in street driving and even a burnout isn't very conducive to getting them sticky without messing them up.

- The density altitude at Fontana is not great, but it isn't going to net half a second improvement by going to sea level. The correction factor there is 0.1-0.2 seconds for cars like these. And the Porsche is running away from the Lexus on the big end. It gets from 60-127 in 0.2 seconds less than the Lexus gets from 60-123. We're talking about a 5-7 mph differential on the top end which means the Porsche is moving away fast. The Porsche just takes a lot more skill to extract its maximum. Whether that's good or bad depends on what you want.

- What amenities in the Lexus? This is not an LS460. It's got the basics and not much else. Certainly nothing that would suggest it should weigh over 3500 lbs when it is made of CF.

Oh yeah, and to second an earlier poster, why two different test drivers?

I thought the 911 turbo was faster than the GT2.

Not sure where the other poster got his Ring lap times from but Sport Auto lapped the LFA at 7:38. The GT2RS Porsche-claimed time is 7:18. That is a big difference although Sport Auto times may be a bit slower than absolute all out runs by manufacturers-- so the LFA might be capable of a 7:30 or so if given the resources a manufacturer brings to the table.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

Numbers are fine and I always appreciate them but the quality of the experience is not determined by the numbers alone. Too many people seem to gravitate only to the numbers... perhaps they haven't actually driven many sports cars? The experience and feel vary greatly from car to car. How quick a car goes in a straight line or around a curve as timed by a stopwatch ends up having limited influence on how much you enjoy a sports car you actually own for a number of years.

a1c_scg says:

07:20 AM, 04/13/11

Nice showing by the Lexus, but it's not even a contest for me between these two. I'll take the Porsche and still be learning to drive to it's fullest after five years of ownership, rather than the Lexus and be driving it to it's fullest in five hours.

Agree, just a matter of preferences.
From a practical pov, most exotic cars track times are probably measured in days/year, so I think it's a good thing that you can learn how to max out the car's potential quickly.

@1487, you thought wrong

Seems the only reason it equaled the GT2's numbers were because driving ability, and shortage of timed runs. Why only 0-60 and 75?? It should have least compared the two up to 150. That's a relatively attainable speed in both, and it'd show how much faster the Porsche is.

And to whoever said 640hp, the GT2 is rated at 620hp. And besides, just think, it's based on a mass-produced steel contructed sportscar platform. It doesn't have a dedicated chassis, gearbox, engine, etc, etc. If Porsche were to build a car w/ the same objective in mind, let's face it- it'd be far superior.

church123: Apparently respectful agreement with you just does not work. I was nothing, but respectful towards you. You really need to be a jacka**!! You idi*t! Stop making sorry excuses for the GT2 RS.

You are clueless about the Lexus LFA. Lexus LFA has everything down to electric heated seats, real time traffic updates, backup camera, 14 speaker Mark Levinson system etc. None of these are on the GT2 RS. The list is long of the standard luxuries on the Lexus LFA. You are again clueless about it. Electric seats alone are extremely heavy compared to the lightweight racing seats in the GT2 RS.

Lexus LFA puts down 515 wheel HP as proven in the dyno, which is way more than and also it has a much faster transmission system the GT2 RS. No the Bridgestone Potenza tires on LFA are nowhere near as sticky in the dry as the Pilot Cup tires the GT2 RS is wearing simply because they are all-weather tires that actually trade dry traction to gain wet traction.

I am not denying the GT2 RS would be quicker than the Lexus LFA. All I am saying is BOTH cars would be quicker on more ideal track conditions and with a better density altitude.

Porsche GT2 RS - Michelin Cup R compound race track tires (only dry traction no wet traction)

Lexus LFA - Bridgetstone Potenza S001 max performance tires (both dry and wet traction, but not nearly as sticky as the R compound on the Porsche GT2 RS).

GT2 RS has a HUGE advantage on its tires since they are R compound tires that gain dry traction through sacrificing wet traction.

Not what I would expect from a 400K car. I like the sound of the engine but the car is just hideous imo. I've said this before, I'm not a big Lambo fan but at that price I'll take the Aventador everyday of the week and who ever wouldn't is a damn fool.

Did IL use Launch Control? I believe both these cars are equipped with such a device. GT500SVT, the GT2RS has 620 hp as claimed from the factory. Where did you get the 7:22 time for the LFA?

@ gt500svt,

Good find! Here's more info about the two tires:

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup: Track & Competition DOT, 80 AA A (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+Cup)

Bridgestone Potenza S001: Max Performance Summer, 260 A A (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+S001)

Anyone who is into cars should know how important tires are to performance, by looking at the rating and specs the two above tires ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME LEAGUE (especially the 80 AA A vs. 260 A A part). This is not quiet apples to oranage but definitely Fuji Apple vs. Granny Smith...

IMO it says A LOT that LFA was able to put down competitive numbers (some are even better, see slalom) with inferior tires.

Who's making excuses gt500svt? Sounds like you're trying to pump up the LFA yourself.

You quoting that tire info from a press release? The Michelins have plenty of wet traction. They have a reduced tread depth so they can't handle as much standing water depth, but they do just fine on wet roads. As for the S001s, as I said, I wouldn't be surprised if they are just as soft. The LFA I had in my possession for a few hours certainly had very gummy tires and I have a lot of race tires lying around for comparison. And they're the same tires as being used on the 458 and other supercars.

Yep, that's right, I got all up close and personal with the LFA. I'm well aware of what it has and doesn't have. And if you think a back up camera and RTT are going to add a lot of weight.....really, cmon, at 3500+ lbs this thing is overweight. It is only 100 lbs lighter than my rather large and spacious 4-seat sedan which happens to be made of steel, not CF.

It's cool if you like the car - at this price point, it's rarely about rationality, but you've been dry humping it in every thread and multiposting the same thing two or three posts in a row. If I had $300k for a supercar I'd take the 458 over the GT2RS or the LFA. But in reality I'd have to sell all my cars and take out a 2nd mortgage to spend that, so the 997 Turbo or a GTR would be a far smarter (and faster 99% of the time) purchase.

senafan: You are correct. They did not use LFA's launch control system, but used a neutral-drop technique. I don't know why they did not use the launch control system that comes standard in the LFA. They claim Lexus told them to neutral-drop, but what is the launch control system feature for then??

The 7:22 comes directly from the chief engineer himself in an interview when he was pressed by the journalists. The 7:22 was also provided to the Gran Turismo 5 team since they wanted it to be as close to reality as possible so Lexus provided LFA's official lap time as 7:22 for reality testing.

Last, but not the least GT2 RS is wearing R compound race tires (Michelin Cup), which are dedicated race track tires. They are not meant to be driven in the rain.

Lexus LFA is wearing street tires Potenza S001 tires that are meant for all-weather conditions. They are intended for daily usage and daily driving so they compromise dry traction to get traction in the wet.

No comparison in the tires at all.

"It doesn't have a dedicated chassis, gearbox, engine, etc, etc. If Porsche were to build a car w/ the same objective in mind, let's face it- it'd be far superior."

It does show in the skidpad test where the P car behaved differently going CW vs CCW due to the position of the driver. The LFA seats (both) are pretty much in the centre of the car, both side to side and front to rear.

Aren't the CGT and the upcoming 918 are in this class?

Impressive, I love them both. I would like to see: LFA at streets of willow and Bonneville; 2011 Nissan GTR VS LFA.

"As for the S001s, as I said, I wouldn't be surprised if they are just as soft"

Well...

SURPRISE!!!

See the links above your post to see it yourself.

I can see it now. You oull up with both cars to the valet, two come runniing out. First one hops in the Porsche, second one moves the BMW out of the first spot and he parks the 911 there.

The both look at the Toyota, look at each other, second one hops in it and parks it out back by the Huyndai rental car. Gives the owner a valet ticket that says " black corolla"

Before you get too wound up about driver skill, know this: I found a Vehicle Speed Sensor fault code in the GT2 RS this morning.

No dashboard warning lights were ever on at the track, but unbeknownst to me one had been on briefly after its dyno runs the day before. Seems the dyno may have confused the computer by somehow redefining V=zero, or something. (Dyno results coming after the LFA dust settles)

Whatever the underlying mechanism, the Porsche didn't want to be launched the way it should. Once underway, however, it had no problems and its engine made full power and was reeling in the LFA by the end of the 1/4-mile.

I have cleared the trouble code, but that may or may not have cleared up the problem. It may be necessary to disconnect the battery in order for the ECU to relearn true V=zero. We'll have to retest, but I'm not sure how soon that can happen because the car is scheduled to leave us today. We're working on it.

Dan Edmunds

@ dgmail,

The valet who gives a "black corolla" ticket to the LFA will also give a "red VW Beetle with messed up hood" ticket for the GT2 RS...

So what's your point?

actualsize, do a proper restest of the LFA if you will. It's only fair if both can be tested at the same time and conditions.

DanEdmunds: Why was Lexus LFA's launch control system not used??? Seems like the neutral-dropping technique was used instead.

Looking at the picture at the top, the Porsche looks a lot smaller than the LFA. Couple that with the lack of front to rear drive shaft, should explain why the car is light as well.

@gt500svt, whats up with your infatuation with this car?

I'm a member of a few forums and I believe gt500svt is TF109B(on the forums) and SpeedKlz(youtube). This member is notorious for inflating numbers and exhibiting fanboy behaviour for this car. Very annoying.

@ sennafan,

At least gt500svt has provided some additional info about the LFA, unlike some other posters who are just here to bash the car because they are hateful...

Also, since he actually got to drive the LFA on the track, I can understand his enthusiasm.

sennafan: You are completely incorrect about who I am. I don't know who those two people are and you completely are clueless about me. Try again.

Louiwei: Thanks. Atleast I am not a hater who hates on a car because of its brand and who made it. Most of these idi*ts here are hating on LFA because Lexus made it.

The true litmus test is that these trolls would be doing backflips if the name instead of "Lexus" was a "Ferrari LFA" and bowing down to it.

I know about all the cars and their capabilities that I can catch these haters trying to distort the facts in order to make a car look bad simply because they love to hate the LFA.

I am also smart enough to know how Lexus just handed over the LFA to the press to do whatever they want and go where ever they want to (Vegas is in this instance). Ferrari on the other hand never supplies the cars to press without the optional extra cost Michelin Pilot PS2 tires and track tuning the car on the exact track that the press is going to test it on.

To those Corvette and Porsche fanboys, ok ZR1 and GT2 RS are faster than the LFA in the straight line. Does that make you fanboys happy? BUT, I will still take the LFA as my daily drive. On the track, I will choose GT2 RS or the ZR1; are they faster than the LFA on the track, not really, but I choose them because they were built more for the track.

If you really want me to choose my real lovers between these 3s, I will pick LFA, the all round winner!

BTW, +10 to "louiswei", porsche 911 = VW Beetle...this is funny...ha ha..

gt500svt: sure buddy. I've seen very similar post whoring in many LFA related threads and videos. The tire argument, the ring times, and exaggerated numbers is something consistently posted by you.

LF-A stops shorter than the GT2 RS, but since it has more odometre mileage on it I think it's breaks were a bit worn out.

I've never seen such bickering about 2 cars none of us will ever own.

gt500svt, I wasn't bagging the lfa, but your unbridled support of the thing is just annoying, post after post about how this car is the end all of all super cars. Its a great piece of engineering but it is far from the best road going car. It is annoying to see a brand that used to make affordable sporty cars have them all disappear and make a beast of a performance machine. Why not offer something for the masses, the ft86 is a few years late (if it ever comes out that is)

@ lostboyz,

1. Why's the FT86 late? Late to what?

2. Don't you think the experience and data gathered by the LFA program will help Toyota/Lexus in their future sports-oriented car programs? Personally I think the FT86 will be the immediate beneficiary from all the test Toyota did with the LFA. Do you really think that Toyota will just race the LFA in the 24hr races for no other reasons than marketing? Sure it's not a car that you and I can afford but I am all for it because I know somewhere down the line, I will get to drive a reasonable priced car that is designed with the "LFA experience" in mind.

3. So is Toyota the only one guilty of killing the sporty cars?

The FT-86 was designed for handling, material and engineering lightweight and balance much like the Lexus LFA. Toyota even went as far as saying the philosophy for FT-86 is the same as Porsche's Cayman.

Still don't understand the price/speed comments... by that logic, everyone would go out and buy a bone stock $50K C6 Corvette, instead of a $1.7M Veyron. $1.65M to shave 1.5s from 0-60.

And 1487, GT2 = 911 turbo track version; GT3 = 911 N/A track version; and surprisingly the Carrera GT is the king of them all.

IMO the LFA is all about the exclusivity and the sound track, which is more intoxicating than, dare I say... a Ferrari.

Interesting. Now put the LF-A up against the new McLaren, GT-R, and the ZR1. That will be even more interesting.

Toyota probably won't let you do it though for fear of 'losing face'.

Lest not forget the politics behind a manufacturer letting a publication beat on their $375,000 supercar for 'free'.

Interesting. Now put the LF-A up against the new McLaren, GT-R, and the ZR1. That will be even more interesting.

Toyota probably won't let you do it though for fear of 'losing face'.

Lest not forget the politics behind a manufacturer letting a publication beat on their $375,000 supercar for 'free'.

@louiswei, absolutely I'm sure they will learn a lot from the project, really thats why I love the car. Engineering projects are always fun to see how they go and will see some kind of trickle down to the lesser products. The ft86 was supposedly coming out last year, then this year, and it still hasn't been unveiled (the one shown now is the the ft86 II concept). Sorry after that many delays it automatically becomes vaporware in my eyes. After making the 2000gt, supra, celica, and many other sporty affordable cars you would think the company would've continued these types of projects. Now we get scion, an entire brand for posers and a supercar that has no real goal to apply such technology towards future programs. I'm hoping for the best but prepared for the worst.

Both seem rather pointless, based on the numbers though. The GTR has alot less power than either yet beats both, the LFA is only .2 seconds faster than the MUCH CHEAPER and LESS powerful and UGLY ISF. THE GT2 rs is slower than a turbo, and turbo S??? somehow doesnt make sense but thats waht the numbers say. Someone and their typos is terrible 3.6 liter V6 than put clearly the Porsche last I checked unless your talking about the VW Porsche none of these cars have V6s....

I just want a GT3 RS..

FT-86? Toyota reinvents the Miata?

LF-A? Toyota builds an overpriced sports car filled with technology that doesn't outperform current cheaper cars and admittedly loses them money? The GT-R is the clear winner over the LF-A.

I can't comment on other states, but where I live, Toyota generally means going too slow in the fast lane. I doubt seeing an LF-A on the open road will change that.

So if arguing on the internet makes you retarded. What does arguing on the internet about cars you will never even so much as breathe on make you? hmmm.....

Let me just say, track conditions vary from day to day and place to place.

If a GTR had been on the same race track, on the same day and on the same time, Lexus LFA and GT2 RS would have destroyed the GTR no questions about. The only thing GTR has got going is off the line traction due to all wheel drive.

Lexus LFA puts down 80 more wheel HP than the GTR and also is 500 pounds lighter. The 2012 GTR is a heavy heavy pig. It was weighed at 3950 lbs recently by MotorTrend in a comparison. That is almost 500 lbs heavier than the LFA.

LFA would have destroyed the GTR.

stingray: Lexus LFA has already beaten the ZR-1 in the AutoBild Germany supercomparo around Nurburgring so no Lexus is not trying to hide it.

Lexus LFA also has a much higher slalom speed than the ZR-1 and it has a much higher cornering speed.

@ stingray454,

You are clueless. Scott told us about how they got this opportunity from Lexus and guess what, it's far from what you think. But also guess what? I don't need to tell you all that because you are just not worthy of my bandwidth.

@ lostboyz,

Was Toyota ever promised that they are bringing out the FT86 last year? I don't think so, it was all media's speculation. Also, let's take couple steps back, even if it's true that the FT86 is delayed, so what? I rather Toyota spend more time to fix all the bugs, make the car as perfect as possible than rush the thing to the market just because the so-called enthusiasts are bitching... Prepare for the worst is always good to avoid huge let down, but I can promise you, your "worst" wouldn't come because the FT86 is coming. PERIOD.

@ thevantageman1,

If you are looking for value then LFA is definitely not a car for you.

Since some of us are so hung up on this "best performance for buck" thingy, why don't we create a formula to calculate which car on the market has the "best performance for buck". That will settle this idiocy once for all I guess...

Again, track conditions are apples to oranges.

Look at Porsche literature on their website.

Officially GT2 RS is the fastest, most expensive Porsche available today. It's performance statistics today are the quickest for a Porsche. However, due to different track conditions, the numbers look inferior to Porsche Turbo S.

That does not mean GT2 RS is inferior to the standard GT2 or Porsche Turbo S. All it says, the numbers are apples to oranges since track conditions are different from track to track and also the density altitude.

I guess I need to preface my comment by saying a few things. I'll never be able to even come close to affording either one of these 2 amazing vehicles in my lifetime. My mere average driving skills are barely enough to exploit 80% out of my 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH. I'm a German marque fan, specifically BMW & Porsche. I wouldn't be caught dead driving a Toyota/Lexus product as my daily driver.

I'm really not a numbers guy either, but you have to take a look at the astonishing numbers both of these vehicles put up.

This Lexus has got some serious chops. It went toe to toe, 12 rounds with not just any 911, but a GT2RS. The ultimate 911.

Are the die hard Porsche fans ever going to consider anything else? No.

Is Lexus' first swing at a supercar the real deal? Absolutely. Good job Lexus. I applaud you.

nyccarguy: Awesome post!!! That is exactly how one should think. Both cars are amazing.

GT2 RS is the halo Porsche. This is no ordinary Porsche Carrera or Turbo. It is the extreme version of the GT2 stripped down and hardcore. Porsche rates it the fastest Porsche ever built so far.

Faster than Porsche Carrera GT, Turbo S, GT3 RS. Both in handling and straight line. Again, from Porsche itself.

The best Lexus went against the best Porsche has to offer today and LFA being new to this territory held extremely well against the Porsche.

At the end of the day, both cars are amazing.

I'm sorry but this car is just too damn expensive. It doesn't make sense. Not when cars with similar performance cost several hundred thousands less. And Lambos and Ferraris cost tens of thousands less.

Now of course, certain people who ride Lexus here won't agree with me, because nothing is better than a Lexus.

"3. So is Toyota the only one guilty of killing the sporty cars?"

More guilty than most. Thats what makes this car so ridiculous- they barely offer anything for folks who cant afford $375k. They come out with a super limited edition car that is over twice as much as the Ford GT was when it came out and offer nothing else for people craving performance outside of IS350 and IS-F. Its ridiculous. They have decided to focus on hybrids while starving the performance division of any money to do anything. What cars will Lexus inherit what has been learned from this car?

I also thought the Ford GT was kind of pointless, but this is worse because of the price.

"Lexus LFA also has a much higher slalom speed than the ZR-1 and it has a much higher cornering speed."

Not according to THIS site. The Lexus was .3 or .4 mph faster. Where are you getting your numbers? And where can I see an official or taped Ring lap in the LF-A?
The fact that Lexus even thinks that there is some upside to allowing IL to generate all this free press for a car NO ONE CAN EVEN ORDER tells you all you need to know. It makes as much sense as Lexus showing this car in a TV ad with the rest of their lineup. What was the point of that?

"Now of course, certain people who ride Lexus here won't agree with me, because nothing is better than a Lexus."

I'd never thought I would see the day when people were arguing that a Lexus should cost more than a Ferrari, Aston or Lambo. It's madness. They use some (not all) state of the art technology to create a $375k car that essentially matched the performance of a $90k Corvette and people are losing their minds and calling this a landmark engineering achievement- primarily because its a Lexus and presumanbly we are supposed to be shocked that Toyota could do something like this. I don't get it.

@louiswei, you being no stranger to the automotive world, how many times is a car generally debuted before release and how long before release? Now how many times has the ft86 been debuted? At least 3 over the course of 2 years. Thats half of a vehicle development cycle, so unless they were meaning to jump the gun or there were some major problems, something happened.

1487: Go buy the AutoBild Germany magazine of September 2010. It has a chart showing Lexus LFA being 5 seconds faster around Nurburgring than ZR-1 with the same driver named Sascha Bert.

Lexus LFA was also quicker than LP570-4, SLS AMG, Turbo S, GTR all in the same supercomparo with the same professional race car driver driving all these cars.

The ZR1 with PTM test was on a slicker surface and the slalom speed was only around 72mph. That's probably what he's referring to. I'd really like to see these two cars on the same track at the same time. I know the LFA would get big points for feel, but the ZR1 has evolved the Corvette simultaneously into genuine supercar territory on the basis of both performance and limit approachability (minus the interior, I suppose). That was improved even further with the new PTM. I'd welcome other cars to the comparison, as well.

Both cars are absolutely amazing. Both are true pedigrees in their own right. but again, and i hate to say it, not quicker than the 2012 GTR. What's the point of paying $375k for an admitedly excellent driver if it keeps getting its ass spanked by a $90k car around the ring? And the last time i checked, it takes superb engineering to make a car complete the ring under 7 min and 24 sec. Please, no dramatic "best in europe bro" comments. Facts are facts are facts... everything else is BS IMO.

Sportauto got 7:38 for both the ZR1 and LFA, same driver. Pre-pro LFA, I believe.
http://www.sportauto-online.de/supertest/corvette-zr1-im-test-was-kann-das-staerkstes-us-modell-1415542.html#article_detail

Then there's the Jim Mero run at 7:26 on stock tires. So I don't think the book is closed on this debate.

At least we can all agree that the next LF-A derived carbon fiber Prius will be awesome.

Gotta admit, glad you guys are getting serious reps with the LF-A. Not just a few nancy test drives, it appears you guys have had an in-depth plan on what with the LF-A when you got your hands on it.

The Lexus is interesting. Every reporter is praising it's "specialness".
Lets hope this is true cuz the looks sure arent.
While I luv the 911, the GTrs doesnt feel special to me, esp w/ that "fast n furious" hood.

What I think is sad, is that a $15,000 sportbike will beat either of those in very nearly every performance category... And have a lot better feel. No as safe, but it'll give better mpg and rev a LOT higher than 9K.

The LFA really is an astonishing accomplishment by Lexus. I'm not personally a huge fan just because I think it's ugly, but for a car that heavy to put up numbers that impressive is remarkable. The amount of time and money that went into its development is also incredible. Toyota really wanted to make sure that they had an epic halo car and they certainly delivered. Anyone trying to argue that the LFA is anything but world-class is kidding themselves.

Nevertheless, I'm old school and I prefer the raw, stripped-down Porsche to the tech-heavy LFA. I think the Lexus is simply wonderful, but if it were my money I'd go with a Porsche GT3. I'm willing to give up some raw numbers for that classic sports car feel. Different strokes for different folks. :)

Also, check with Gran Turismo 5 and ask them what they used as a benchmark for Lexus LFA's reality testing around Nurburgring since the lap times were supposed to mirror exactly what the car could achieve in reality.

Polophony digital will tell you 7:22 as the benchmark for reality testing on Lexus LFA since that is what LFA achieved around Nurburgring track.

Ofcourse, I asked at Infineon race track during driver development why Lexus did not go around parade it and the reason was previously parading Nurburgring lap times has started a p*issing match between manufacturers and resulted in a gong show.

There is no point in releasing an official lap time when it could not be replicated by ANYONE in real life.

NO ONE independently has ever been able to run the officially validate GTR's claimed numbers simply because they are impossible to achieve in real life.

You get that LFA Nurburgring lap time (7:22) from the rumor mill or Lexus OR department?
Or was it the racing LFA with slicks that set that time? Fastest time I have seen for a STREET LFA was 7:38. Also, How much lap time did the LFA get in development on the Nurburgring? How about the GT2 RS? ZR1? If they each spent one minute then that was one minute more than the lap record holder Viper ACR did. And yet.....

Dodge Viper ACR 7:22:1
Porsche 911 GT2 RS 7:24 Sport Auto (That oft-quoted 7:18 was not a full track run-look it up)
Nissan GT-R '11 7:24 Nissan (Nissan tested- hard for me to believe but I can't disprove)
Corvette ZR1 7:26.4 (GM test)
Lexus LFA 7:38 (Sport Auto)
Corvette Z06 7:43 (GM test)

I am sure by now that Nissan has taken another supposedly stock 2012 GT-R to the ring and set a new "lap record" that is twenty seconds faster than any independent source can duplicate but the LFA does not even belong in this conversation IMO.

Much better numbers than I expected but the LFA is still not in the GT2 RS, Viper or ZR1's league on the track- which is fine- It's a luxury Super GT, not a supercar or a track car.

Are you seriously going to start submitting video game evidence in favor of the LFA? Hasn't this fanboidom gone on far enough?

*PR department

lol ok so based on a whole bunch of hearsay things from a guy that can do nothing but spam good things about the LFA, we are just supposed to take you at your word?

These comments, overall, are pretty silly. Why can't we just appreciate the fact that such fantastic machinery still exists in this age of hybrids, fuel economy and fun killing emission standards?

Doesn't a Lancer Evo almost beat the Viper's Laguna Seca track record on Gran Turismo "The Real Driving Simulator"? What does that have to do with the real world?

As much as I have liked my Lexus/Toyota's I would probably get the Porsche.

copmotor440cid: You are an idi*t to mix official manufacturer test with the independently tested with professional racing car drivers. That 7:26 has never ever been duplicated by an independent driver. The fastest an independent testing ran was 7:38 with the ZR-1.

Don't give me marketing bullsh*t of the ZR-1 when it has never been duplicated by any non-GM professional race car driver.

Lexus LFA in a head to head super comparison by AutoBild Germany in September 2010 beat the ZR-1 by 5 full seconds around the full version of Nurburgring race track including GTR, SLS AMG, Turbo S, GTR, LP570-4.

Again, the keyword is head to head comparison, same time, same driver, same track. It does not get anymore apples to apples than this.

Again, no one ever in real life has ever come close to those claimed manufacturer numbers. Those are pure marketing BS.

IL,

When people register to comment, can you ask the simple question as to whether or not N-Ring times are the ultimate depiction of a cars performance and only reason anyone should choose between two cars.

We can then separate the people that say "yes" and "no" into separate groups.

Man, this new LFA fanboy is really annoying.

So much for carbon fiber if the LFA is a pig with over 3500lbs at the end of the day.

So much for whatever it made at the wheels at one dyno test per IL, if it has such a low trap speed at the end of the day.

So much if it doesn`t have the best tires if it costs $375k at the end of the day. Blame that to Lexus

So much if it is so damn expensive and yet it ain`t the fastest at the Nurburgring at the end of the day.

What did the LFA run in that AutoBild test? Not 7:22 I bet- the time that YOU quoted. Oh wait that was on GT5- oops. Still doesn't beat the 25% as expensive Viper. It's more comfortable though, meant to be driven fast by both young and especially old- just like any other Lexus.

I will repeat that again. Don't give me marketing BS about what GM did with their car or what Nissan did with their car.

SHOW ME INDEPENDENT TESTING!! Done with independent professional drivers without any influence from the manufacturer!!

Porsche did that with the Carrera GT where they gave it to press and validated the 7:32 lap time.Ferrari did that with the Enzo.

Show me a single track test around Nurburgring where they ran what the manufacturers claim by GM and Nissan. YOU CANT!!! Simply because NO ONE ever has been able to duplicate those CLAIMED lap times.

The other was AutoBild Germany supercomparo where LFA beat the GTR, ZR1, SLS AMG, Turbo S and LP570-4 in a head to head match with the same driver. Go look it up. Buy that magazine and read for yourself.

The fastest independently verified numbers of ZR-1 are 7:38 by SportAuto and the fastest independently verified number for GTR are 7:38 by the same driver.

Don't give me marketing BS. Ofcourse, they would do whatever it to market the car and begin a p*ssing match with other manufacturers to sell more cars.

And forgot the best part of it all....

About this really annoying armchair LFA fanboy

So much for being so hyperexcited about this car, if he can`t afford it nor will have one at the end of the day........!!

LOL!!!!!

:=)

yup, from being on a few mustang forums, this guy definitely doesn't own a gt500, definitely lexus PR. I've never seen anyone that passionate about a car they don't own and will never own.

Viper was tested by- wait- independent source. The Viper Club of America with- wait-a professional race car driver behind the wheel. Confirmed by- wait- Motor Trend magazine.

ZR1 was admittedly tested by GM (as I stated). However I have no problem with a manufacturer using their own driver as long as the car is FACTORY STOCK (tires/fuel etc.) That ZR1 only had safety equipment added- not racing slicks or 110 octane fuel. As good as a professional race car driver might be for these tests, the ZR1 was driven by a GM driver (Jim Mero) who had way more time behind the wheel of the ZR1 than any pro driver and therefore understood the nuances of driving the car fast around the ring. Experience counts. This does not make the time unofficial. AutoBild must not have the skill to fully utilize the ZR1 around that track. The LFA is a much better match for the $80k Z06 around a track, which ran a 7:43 with- wait- a pro racer driving (Jan Magnussen).

The Lexus is interesting. Every reporter is praising it's "specialness".
Lets hope this is true cuz the looks sure arent.
While I luv the 911, the GTrs doesnt feel special to me, esp w/ that "fast n furious" hood.

"Those 911s aren't so quick without those fancy launch contro/dual clutch theatrics."

I guess I'd understand this better if the LFA wasn't the one using an automated manual transmission in this test. Given the results of other Porsche manuals versus the automated manuals, it's a safe bet that at least 3 tenths would drop off if Porsche put this configuration together. I don't care how jaded one gets: a 4.1 0-60 is plenty quick, and would have to be one of the faster manual transmission times recorded for a street car.

GT500
Alright now!
We've had complaints about you making too much sense.....

Now if you don't knock it off, I'm gonna have to ask you to leave.....
BD

What GT500 has are excuses. As amazing as this car is, this CF masterpiece weighs in over 3500, traps 124 mph, does 0-60 in the high 3's, and the quarter-mile in mid-11's. The argument back then was that it wasn't a production model that was tested. Now that one is tested, the numbers look the same. This is nothing to brag about. If Lexus was serious about performance, why does it weigh so much? Why is it slower than supercars from years ago? Besides the expected Lexus reliability, build quality, and amenities, what does this car offer other than a unique driving experience? It's fantastic, but Lexus' claim of performance is severely outdated and inaccurate if it wants to be compared to cars that are out, today. Those of which that are lighter, quicker, faster, cheaper, and better performing. I hope IL proves us wrong in the next few days.

Edmunds, can y'all record street start and in-gear acceleration times for these cars?

It's well and good to spend five minutes messing with launch control and optimal revs, but how the car performs when you pin it from a roll is, I think, much more indicative of what it feels like in actual use. If the engine is gutless at low revs or full of turbo lag, that's where it'll show up.

wait, we have someone saying a videotaped run at the ring is to be dismissed as manufactuer marketing hype? Really? Did they use special effects to get that 7:26 lap at the Ring? GT500 is a moron if he thinks a timed, taped lap doesn't count as evidence. As long as the car is stock, the time counts.

BTW, its not customary for US magazines to run cars at the ring so I'm not sure how you can say we can only accept "independent" Ring lap times. There arent many publications out there who can afford to run supercars at the Ring just to verify manufacturer claims. Its an expensive endeavor. The video proves what the car can do, you can accept it or reject it. I want to see a videotaped run of the LF-A doing a 7:18 lap. Without AWD such a time is likely nearly impossible without more power.

The LF-A basically matches the performance of the Ford GT that was on sale 4-5 years ago for $140k.

Unlike most of the GM fanbois (1487, Lt1, cobaltss and the infamous zr1) Gt500 is informed and is much more pleasant to read. I will listen to him all day....the GM homers get defensive and butt-hurt at the slightest provocation.

See the update they put in about the wheel sensor issue on the GT2. The 4.1 second 0-60 time for the GT2 is WAAAAY OFF! As is, the cars are comparable, but once the wheel sensor issue is sorted out on the GT2, and they redo the tests, i think we will see a much different story - the GT2 will be the clear winner all around. The LFA is still a great car but IMO simple doesn't compare.

GM, Ford, and Nissan need tricks, twisters, boosters, chargers, and gremlins under the hood to get their cars to ACT like supercars

Lexus builds supercars now, with no tricks, just because they can

Deal with it!
BD

I am not a fan of Porsche at all, but taking a couple for a test run. I can honestly say that it is a true enthusiasts car, a drivers car, and as much as I would prefer something else for less, I would take the Porsche over that Lexus a billion times over. Sure the Vipor, ZR1, and GTR are great cars, but they weren't mentioned in this article, so stop compairing please.

@ bodyblue- Yes 1487 is a GM fanboy, but he is passionate about his favorite brand, and you really can't hold that against him. I could say the same in regards to your European picks as well, but you just like their cars, and there is nothing wrong with that either.

hahahha there is so much good ol shit throwing of comments i love it.

all i'm gonna say is if i had the money you couldnt get me to pick that porsche over the LFA, for
the simple reason that an existence-altering exhaust sound is what i look for in a supercar

@blackdynamite0, really you are saying because the lexus is N/A its better? Want to validate that?

Lost
Welcome to Earth!
BD

The LFA is an amazing car, but I still think the Nissan GTR's combination of performance and price andability to turn a profit is more of "achievement". Regardless, I wouldn't kick any of the cars mentioned above out of bed.

As is usual with the LFA, no thanks. The Porsche is the better option, imho.

Both are beautiful cars but I am a bit mystified by the relatively slow acceleration numbers.
My '12 GTR is quicker in every single category except the trap speed of the Porsche and my '09 GTR was quicker than everything except the quarter mile figures for both. I would have expected low 3s to 60.

Lexus LFA beat the ZR-1, GTR, SLS AMG, LP570-4, Turbo S in the September 2010 edition of AutoBild Germany with the same driver driving all cars (Sascha Bert) around Nurburgring.

Go read it up!!!!

Again, head to head, same day, same conditions, same driver. That is reality for the haters.

Lexus LFA with bone stock engine and reduced power (480 HP to fulfill 4.0 Liter - 6.2 Liter class restriction) races in the SP8 class 24-hours endurance races and wins everytime.

None of these other cars have anything common with their racing cars GTR and ZR1. Ever looked at C6-R ZR1 race car?? It uses a 5.5 Liter V8 naturally aspirated and nothing in common with the ZR-1. Because they cannot stand the engines cannot handle the stress and heat of racing 24-hours straight. The Nissan GTR GT2 race car uses a 5.6 Liter V8 from the titan and RWD.

Lexus LFA is the only car with engine races 24-hours straight around Nurburgring at 9500 rpm without missing a beat.

Despite all the great things you post about it, this test shows same day, same conditions results which are the same with the pre-production units. What other excuses are you going to make?

I dont know if its possible , but the lexus can still be turbocharged , theres still ever a first one.
anyway i will take the Lexus.

Quick question, why is this blackdynamite guy riding the LFA's d*ck all the time? I understand gt500 (he got to ride in it at the track), but really what is your deal? Just trying to start a flame war? Don't call me a hater, I do appreciate the car for its engineering and engine sound, but it's just not my cup 'o tea. Doesn't stir my soul, like say, Karl's Ford GT, or a Ferrari, or a ZR1, or a V12 Vantage. The Porsche isn't doing it for me either, but I do appreciate that the Germans can (somewhat) defy the laws of physics. However at the same time I love that IL is providing this kind of coverage for a supercar. I'd be happy if this was any supercar.

On a separate point, is there a reason the 911's hood is f***ed up? Is that exposed carbon fiber or something?

Sennafan:

- No pre-production prototype ever had a slalom speed of 75.2 mph (highest was 74.1)

- The highest ever 1/4 mile number LFA ran was 11.7@125 mph in comparison with Ferrari 599 GTB HGTE. That was using LFA's launch control system. Still the production model is quicker.

- In a straight line, LFA was neck and neck with the Porsche halo car and had superior handling numbers by 1 mph. No pre-production prototype could have achieved that.

This test clearly states they did not use LFA's launch control system, but used the neutral slamming technique. I believe the LFA launch control system usage would have made the numbers a few tenths better.

Sennafan:

- No pre-production prototype ever had a slalom speed of 75.2 mph (highest was 74.1)

- The highest ever 1/4 mile number LFA ran was 11.7@125 mph in comparison with Ferrari 599 GTB HGTE. That was using LFA's launch control system. Still the production model is quicker.

- In a straight line, LFA was neck and neck with the Porsche halo car and had superior handling numbers by 1 mph. No pre-production prototype could have achieved that.

This test clearly states they did not use LFA's launch control system, but used the neutral slamming technique. I believe the LFA launch control system usage would have made the numbers a few tenths better.

WOW Gt500svt please stop you look like a complete TOOL. You basing lap times on a VIDEO GAME WOW! You must be a teenager.

FACT #1. The lfa has no video PROOF of your video game backed 7:22 lap time! The ZR1 has real VIDEO PROOF of there 7:26 lap time

Fact #2 The LFA is slower in a straight line than a ZR1,GTR,911 TURBO and many other cars costing 1/3 as much.

FACT#3 Sport Auto in the September 2010 edition conducted an LFA supertest with a red LFA that had been used in several other tests in Europe and Horst Von Saurma conducted a hot lap the LFA around Nurburgring. The LFA clocked the Nurburgring in 7:38. The LFA was wearing temporary Bridgestone S001 street tires since the LFA spec tires are still under development. Although the LFA lap time is slower than the chief engineer's "better than 7:20" claim, Sport Auto cited LFA ran exactly the same lap time with the same driver as other major competitors like the Ferrari 458 Italia, the Corvette ZR1 with Michelin Pilot Sport 2 (PS2) tires and 2 seconds faster than the Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG, 2 seconds faster than the Porsche 911 (997.2) GT3

The difference between the pre-production model and this is minimal when you compare the two. The car still weighs 3500 lbs, despite it being mostly CF. How much do you think LC is going to help in its 0-60, quarter mile time, and trap?

1-All this Nurburgring nonsense is easy to settle. So the Dodge Viper ACR is claimed to be the fastest official time @ 7:22? Then let's watch the video comparing the ACR and LFA side by side in realtime.

Note the LFA has traffic to deal with and the ACR does not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3oJYKmIphU

2-Why is the Lexus heavy? Full leather, heated seats, 14 speakers, noise dampening (huge weight penalty), navigation, cameras, etc. IT'S a FREAKING LEXUS! Look at the interior noise levels comparing the two. For the LFA, 51 dB @ idle, 73 @ cruise, 92 @ WOT!! Nice acoustic tuning by Yamaha there. Those a superb numbers for a luxury sports car. Again, it's a Lexus.

Don't forget, CF is more than reduced weight. It's increases structural rigidity as well. It's also a point of pride for craftsmanship using a CF loom designed in house that noone else has developed. That's a tie in to Toyota's heritage which started by making cotton looms. Beyond a lot of you haters comprehension let alone appreciation.

3-If I wanted to claim superiority by owning a ZR1 or GTR for such a perceived 'bargain' I would rather spend $40k on an Evo and drop $15k into it and smoke the $100k ZR1 and GTR on any test parameter. Anyone thinking $100k for one of those is some supercar bargain is delusional.

Plus no one that spends $100k on a ZR1 or GTR can buy an LFA, Carrera GT, etc. That's why they don't. They simply can't. Btw, I can hot up a Dodge Dart for a fraction the price of your bargain supercars and smoke you in the 1/4. Woopty doo. 1/4 mile is to racing what bench pressing is to weight training. Worthless. But for you 1/4 mile GTR fanatics here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5R-oi91bd4

09cobaltsstc: ZR-1 ran 7:38 with Horst Von Saurma and 7:38 for the Nissan GTR. Don't distort the facts. That is 12 seconds slower than GM's claim.

No one in this world except GM and Nissan have ever been able to run those lap times. No one!!!!! Anything thar

Again, go pick up a copy of September edition 2010 of AutoBild Germany with the same driver driving all cars - Sascha Bert.

Lexus LFA beat ZR-1, SLS AMG, LP570-4, Turbo S and GTR all in a head to head super comparo being driven by the same professional race car driver Sascha Bert. GO READ IT UP!!!!

HAHA Bodyblue likes the guy Quoting video game lap times more than people who post ACTUAL FACTS LMAO! That is par for the course with you. I bet if this was a BMW or Ford he was trying to bash you would be all over it STFU if you have nothing to bring the table besides TRASH talk.

Launch control is usually good for 3-5 tenths depending.

I don't question at all that the car is great, akula1. I'm sure it's built to the best standards with the best materials and engineering. My problem is people making this car out to be something that it isn't, when tests have shown results very similar to what Insideline found.

Again, go pick up a copy of September edition 2010 of AutoBild Germany with the same driver driving all cars - Sascha Bert.

Lexus LFA beat ZR-1, SLS AMG, LP570-4, Turbo S and GTR all in a head to head super comparo being driven by the same professional race car driver Sascha Bert. GO READ IT UP!!!!

For all I know, I know nothing about what the weight of the factory car is, what tune it has or if it is running on shaved tires.

Factory claims are great for e-thugs and internet bullies to refute any real world data that does not support their argument. PERIOD.

This is not some factory claim with some freak modifications like shaved tires or weight reductions. Who cares about factory claims and videos??? They mean nothing to me.

It is like making a claim of 0-60 mph in 4.0 seconds on a car and independently NO ONE in the world ever being able to duplicate that.

"Oh I don't care not anyone of the billion people in the world being able to run that. GM said and made a video so yeah, I believe GM is right".

THAT MEANS NOTHING!!!

Again, go pick up a copy of September edition 2010 of AutoBild Germany with the same driver driving all cars - Sascha Bert.

Lexus LFA beat ZR-1, SLS AMG, LP570-4, Turbo S and GTR all in a head to head super comparo being driven by the same professional race car driver Sascha Bert. GO READ IT UP!!!!

For all I know, I know nothing about what the weight of the factory car is, what tune it has or if it is running on shaved tires.

Factory claims are great for e-thugs and internet bullies to refute any real world data that does not support their argument. PERIOD.

This is not some factory claim with some freak modifications like shaved tires or weight reductions. Who cares about factory claims and videos??? They mean nothing to me.

It is like making a claim of 0-60 mph in 4.0 seconds on a car and independently NO ONE in the world ever being able to duplicate that.

"Oh I don't care not anyone of the billion people in the world being able to run that. GM said and made a video so yeah, I believe GM is right".

THAT MEANS NOTHING!!!

Didn't you use a factory claim of 7:22 to support your argument, GT500?

akula1,

Do you even try to make sense?
So if sticking $15K into an Evo would make it run faster than a stock GTR and ZR1 wouldn't it run faster than an LFA too? And besides what makes them supercars? Hint: it isn't straightline performance. I don't care how much freakin money you put in an Evo it isn't going to run with a stock ZR1 around the Nurburing.

chiphomme,

It's called diminished returns. You clearly lack the mechanical and electrical knowledge to comprehend what makes car A faster than car B. The Evo has been modded by publications with minimal cost and bested the GTR around the track and in any singular parameter. If all you care about is being the fastest you don't need to spend six figures. If you have ever been to a race track or spent a hour learning about powertrains and drivetrains you would know this. You apparently don't. You aren't alone so no worries.

And yes there are Evos and a multitude of modified cars that can outdo any of these cars on Nurburgring. You are too fixated on production vehicles and and a single source for data.

Akula1,

A supercar is about performance. And to mod an Evo to a point where it could match a stock GTR or ZR1 around the 'ring would make it more expensive than both. So yes the laws of diminsihing returns apply.
And I'm hardly fixated on stock. You can mod a GTR and a ZR1 too.
And what makes the LFA a supercar? It's expensive? You have yet to clarify that definition.

Lol, no it wouldn't. Keep telling yourself that.

Wait, are you saying the LFA isn't a supercar? Is that your point? Good luck with both of those premises.

You need to get out from behind your keyboard. You are way out of your depth of comprehension here. Enjoy your preconceptions.

Seems like everyone is hung up on the 'Ring time but no one wants to talk about the tires?

Okay...

These discussions so often get ruined by people who have weird allegiances to brands.

Like what is GT500's deal? Does he have skin in the game here? GT500, are you a Toyota rep, seriously?

And BD, I love you man, usually you and your poetic interludes are a highlight, but what is up with the Lexus love from you today? You're crowing about this LFA like you built the thing. What's the deal?

-Rod

Louis

I'll play. Someone should put better tires on the LFA, and learn how to use the LC before doing acceleration runs for stats. I think they will also help with the slalom and skidpad.

I think the biggest thing I have against this car is that the GT-R exists. The more I think about it, the more I'm sure of it.

One could argue the merits of this car. And the GT2, GT-R, and ZR1, as well. But ultimately it comes down to two things-

1) Most owners won't take these cars to a road course to track them. And there's no telling which 'Ring numbers are legit and which ones aren't.

And that leaves, unfortunately, the numbers that reflect how fast the car is. I don't agree w/ it, as I would track the car if I owned it. But for the rest of the population, they be measured by how they stack up in an impromptu stoplight war or highway roll. And in that aspect, I think the LFA is a little lacking. Yeah, it's still damn quick, but a GT-R, or 911 Turbo would put a beating on this thing.

2) The guys who are real enthusiasts and will track their cars care about more than numbers. They care about the experience.

And that just leaves the driving dynamics of the car, and how they're achieved. Most track guys/hardcore enthusiasts want the purest, most undilluted feel possible. And it can't be disputed that there are more compelling cars out there in that regard. Especially for the price. A GT2/3 RS, F430 Scud, LP570 Superleggera, Z06, and Viper ACR are all more focused, driver-centric cars.

Ultimately it doesn't matter, because this car will still find buyers, but it's the best I can do to illuminate, at least, my personal views on the car. In short, I like it, but it's way down the list of cars that'd fill my dream garage. I'd have to be of substantial net worth to buy this car. For the money, I'd take the purer, even more exotic Carrera GT. For a track car, I'd take a 911 GT# or F430 Scud, and save a lot of money in the process. For a clinical, easy-to-drive, stupid fast GT, I'd buy a GT-R, and again, save a lot of money. And after buying a better track car, and a more comfortable sport coupe, you'd still have money left.

@gt500svt

Your ignorance makes me want to vomit. Seriously.

Here's a little media sourced (not factory claimed) lap-time for you:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0808_2009_dodge_viper_acr_nurburgring_record/index.html

Dodge Viper ACR 7:22.

In the same 20.8 km as Autobild tested, no less.

Yes, the LFA was faster than the other cars that day in your German article that you're so limp-wristedly waving around, but I guarantee you it was driver error. The LFA clocked in at 7:38, while the ZR1 clocked in at 7:41 (not 5 seconds faster, as you claimed earlier). The fact that the driver could only clock in a 7:41 with a ZR1 instead of a 7:26 means there's a huge desparity between driver skill, which also means the driver was not able to extract the full potential from those cars. And if you're thinking the reason why Autobild had slower times was because it was running a longer course, watch the video of the Viper running the 7:22, then watch the video of the ZR1 running the 7:26 - they're the same distance, both 20.8 km.

Also, I find it hilarious that you're using Gran Tourismo 5 to base your claim on the LFA running a 7:22. What, are we going on PS3 Online now and virtually racing each other to see which car is truly the fastest? Ridiculous.

It's also funny that you're ranting and raving about how the LFA is just as quick as the Porsche 911 GT2 RS, the "halo" car of Porsche, when the regular Porsche 911 Turbo with PDK runs 10.9 - 11.0 all day, and still only costs a mere fraction that the LFA does.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2010/03/il-track-tested-2010-porsche-911-gt3-vs-2010-porsche-911-turbo.html

@akula1

You should read your YouTube links more carefully before you post them. That LFA vs Viper video shows a race-prepped LFA , not a stock production one.

@ 2001gs430,

No doubt that stickier tires will help LFA's slalom and skipad numbers, I am curious on how much those numbers will be improved by.

a1c_scg
Perhaps you might want to consider another point which is the LFA offers something completely different than all of the cars you mentioned. Just on that alone this car may earn a higher priority in a multi-supercar gargage. By the way, there is a more expensive, track ready version LFA!

Let's face it, the LFA just is not meant for the straight line no matter how you slice or twist it. Until a real driver gets behind the wheel of one on a track, we won't know how well it really performs. I loved Motortrend's Probst segment with the GTR, Vette, GT500 comparo. IL needs a pro driver behind these machines on a track with professional feedback.

Akula1,

I need to get out from behind a keyboard? Really?
Since I own a '12 gtr and use to own '09 gtr I think I know a tad bit more about them than you.
And they are super cars. As is an lfa, zr1, gt2rs, etc. I'm questioning your silly parameters.

i like both cars. just a matters whay my age is.

i'll take the lexus while i'm still young, thin and still got a full head of hair.

i'll take the porche with my retirement money, bear belly and bald head. :)

louis, I'm sorry to say that you are not up to speed on how the tire rating system works. The UTOQ rating is not particularly effective at comparing wear or tire compound across brands.

For example, the Bridgestone S001's are noticeably softer than the 200 UTOQ rating Dunlop Direzza Star Specs I have on one of my cars, which are noticeably softer than the 200 UTOQ rated Hankook Ventus ZR212's I have on some other wheels. Furthermore, the Dunlops are substantially grippier in all ways than the Hankook (especially in the wet), despite the Hankooks getting a AA vs. A traction grade.

I've seen race tire manufacturers suddenly find a much better tread wear rating when series rules call for a tire of a certain UTOQ rating. A tire that was rated 60 or 80 suddenly gets a 100 or 140 rating.

I don't doubt that some proper race tires would add a little to the LFA's envelope, but the Pilot Sport Cups are backmarkers in the DOT legal track tire game, known best for their excellent durability, long warm up times and high cost. There are other street tires out there that get very close to them. In fact, the new Pilot Super Sport has a 300 treadwear rating and seems to split the performance difference between the old PS2 (220 UTOQ) and the Sport Cups. If Porsche was running Hoosier A6 or A7s on the GT2RS, then we'd have something to talk about in terms of tire differential.

In summary, UTOQ ratings tell you very little about a tire.

It's nice to know that my 2010 ZR1 will beat both these boys. 0-60 in 3.4 and ¼ mile at 11.3. The ZR1 costs a hole lot less and looks better too. Go figure.

Be Proud. Buy American

Very little? I don't think so.

Sure it doesn't tell you EVERYTHING about the tires but guess what, it does tell you SOMETHING and that something here is that the two tires are on different league. The Pilot Sport Cup is, like you've said it yourself, a DOT legal TRACK, T-R-A-C-K, tire but the S001 is just max performance summer like the ones on most performance oriented cars. One is running around $600-$700 per pop and another is around $350-$450.

Also, we are not comparing UTOQ 200 vs. UTOQ 200 here, we are comparing 200 vs. 80. Are you trying to tell us that the Pilot Sport Cup is not stickier than the S001?

So in summary, UTOQ DOES tell you SOMETHING about a tire.

For those who wants to know more about the Pilot Sport Cup, here's the link:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/Michelin_Care_and_Feeding.pdf

@lt1boy

The LFA was race prepped? What's a Viper ACR or GT2 RS? Go look up how different the two LFA's are from each other relative to the Dodge and Porsche.

@chiphomme

You own a GTR = You know everything about cars. Thx for proving my point. I bet you're excited for 2015 when you can trade up your lease again. How's that GTR doing for you at the track anyway, didn't notice you ever said it's been to one.

"I bet if this was a BMW or Ford he was trying to bash you would be all over it STFU if you have nothing to bring the table besides TRASH talk."

he is a certified idiot. He has the nerve to claim that those who dont agree with him arent dealing in facts when the truth is the exact opposite. Those who are keeping the LFA in perspective ARE presenting facts. Those in fantasy land are being selective about the facts to paint a phony picture in which the Lexus is a dominant sports car. It's not and the data is out there to prove it. The car performs almost identically to the Z06, but it costs 5 times more than a Z06. Case closed.

And LOL at the guy who says this is a "Lexus" and thus it has to weigh more. This is a hardcore performance car, it has NOTHING in common with other Lexus models. And since when do leather and premium sound mean a car has to be heavy? Give me a break. You can find leather, nav, premium sound systems, etc. in almost every car in this class. the lexus weighs more because they dont have a lot of experience with this type of car and they couldn't match the lightest cars in this class. It has nothing to do with this car being a real "lexus".

"It's also funny that you're ranting and raving about how the LFA is just as quick as the Porsche 911 GT2 RS, the "halo" car of Porsche, when the regular Porsche 911 Turbo with PDK runs 10.9 - 11.0 all day, and still only costs a mere fraction that the LFA does."

THANK YOU! I've been trying to say that. The AWD Turbo is the fastest Porsche out there right now. Its just not a real track car. The 911 has been clocked at 127-128mph in the quarter which is well ahead of the LF-A.

Oh boy! The Lexus is a hair quicker than the Cadillac CTS-V for FIVE TIMES THE PRICE!

http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/cts-v/2009/videos/2009_cadillac_cts-v_ft_1.html

hate it if you want...but as for me..i call it a master-peace! the LFA, a car if you have a chance to see one or come even close to touch it....than the Porsche become just another car, like the GT3 Park in front of my office. and I love the GT3!!!!

zr1man -

If you think your Corvette looks better than both of these...well I guess to wach his own.
But you are in a minority that is derived solely of Corvette owners. And I'd lay money on that claim.

hate it if you want...but as for me..i call it a master-peace! the LFA, a car if you have a chance to see one or come even close to touch it....than the Porsche become just another car, like the GT3 Park in front of my office. and I love the GT3!!!!

Akula1,

Since I actually drive the car you claim isn't a supercar yes I do know a hell of a lot about it. And yes it is a supercar. And yes I have been to a track. Have you? What supercar do you drive?

Louis, have you ever bought a track tire? Ever used them? Ever autocrossed in the "street tire" class and seen how grippy some 140 treadwear tires can be? I've got examples of all kinds of race tires, from old crappy Yokohoma A032's to Dunlop race slicks lying around. Why? Because I've used them. I have 300 treadwear tires on my truck - the S001's are a hell of a lot softer and certainly grippier. And we haven't even gotten into how manufacturers work with OEM car makers to do specialized tires for certain models that may incorporate very different performance metrics. Ever see an N0 or N1 after a tire designation? Look that up and see what it means.

So, UTOQ does not allow you to compare tires across brands. You're a long time poster here with lots of good rep and I've enjoyed your posts. But I see you getting defensive about the LFA and it isn't worth it. You're _not_ like that svt guy, but don't let yourself follow him down.

Akula1,

You have yet to answer the question about what your definition of a supercar is?
If modifying an Evo can make it faster than a GTR or ZR1 and therefore makes them less than supercars doesn't the same logic apply to an LFA, 458, or GT2RS?
Come on. I know your extensive experience with all these cars should provide some useful insight.
Or don't you have a lot of track time in an LFA?

@ church123,

I am not following anyone and I am just presenting the facts, see the tires specs yourself, I am done with this topic.

As for your questions... I've tracked my car with 280 rating tires before, Goodyear F1 Eagle GS-D3 to be precise, and after about 20 laps I could actually see the tires melting. So yeah, I know how "sticky" the S001 can be since it's rated at 200. But you know what, I also know how STICKIER the Pilot Sport Cup can be given that it's rated at 80 and classified as a street legal track tire.

As for whether the LFA is worth the price tag, I think that's another matter altogether. Personally I think it's stupid to even talk about that here since none of us are planning to buy one anytime soon... But for those who bought one and are happy with the car, who are us to point our fingers at them and say "Ha, you are an idiot paying $400k on a Lexus"...

I admire the car because it is an engineering masterpiece and because it is from Lexus, which happens to be the brand that I like. But like I've told other people, if I can have only ONE supercar then that one probably won't be a LFA. However, if I can have more than one then you bet your rear that the LFA will definitely be one of them.

Lol at this whole thing. There are about 20 good posts here.

People need to just get over the fact that the lfa is expensive. If exclusivity is what you are after, go for it.

But I'm not giving lexus a cookie because it built something out of the ordinary.

The only supercar from japan that truly changed the game was the nsx.

church123
While I don't know a lot about tires or brakes, but the LFA did put down the fastest wet lap on Top Gear, ahead of the AWD Lambo. The tires has to be the biggest reason here. So you are saying that the S0001 tires are not much different than the one on the GT2 RS? If so why does the track ready version of the LFA will wear the grippier Bridgestone RE070 tires.

What I said 2001gs430, is that I wouldn't be surprised if the S001's were as soft as the Pilot Cups. The Cups are relatively hard tires, slow to warm up, long wearing and not particularly grippy for what they are. If it weren't for their reduced tread depth, they'd be pretty good 3-season tires.

Louis, you illustrated my point perfectly. You melted a DS3 at the track, yet Lexus is capable of lapping these S001s without issue. The whole point is, you can't compare tires using UTOQ ratings. It just doesn't match up to real world performance. This has been the case for a long time, and I don't see it changing any time soon.

@ church123,

Are you saying that the the Pilot Sport Cup is NOT stickier than the S001? Or you are saying that you just don't know?

I am saying that based on the rating the Pilot Sport Cup SHOULD BE stickier than the S001 because:

1. Different league: Max Performance Summer vs. Street Leagal Track
2. UTOQ 80 vs. 200 - sure the UTOQ is not the golden rule but come on! 80 vs. 200? We are not talking about 160 vs. 200 here...

You, as a tire expert it seems, should've known that tires can improve a car's performance by quiet a bit so nobody knows what the LFA could do if it has the same tires as the GT2RS. However, it'll be pretty hard for its performance NOT to go up with grippier tires.

Do you disagree?

"I wouldn't be surprised if the S001's were as soft as the Pilot Cups."

Got anything to back that up or that's just one of things you pull out from your "experience"?

Like I said, sure the UTOQ and tire rartings aren't the golden rules but at least that's SOMETHING to go by. What's yours?

Don't show me other tires I want to know just these two:

S001 vs. Pilot Sport Cup.

I'm with chiphomme

and zr1man = f_cktard.

"I bet if this was a BMW or Ford he was trying to bash you would be all over it STFU if you have nothing to bring the table besides TRASH talk.'

Speaking of trash talk.....you forgot to clean up the waiting room.......remember lot boys have to do that too.

The fact is that nobody would pay 375K for ANY GM car. EVER. Even Ford was able to sell 150K Ford GTs. GM roars and the world shrugs. The fact that Lexus (Toyota) can get this kind a money for a car makes GM look like the detachable steering wheel, UAW and Government owned dump it is....THAT is the real reason the GM whores hate the LFA. They know that nobody would care if GM mad a care like it.

what i dont understand is how the LFA with its unbelievably expensive carbon fiber body is still 300lbs more than the convential porsche

Don't be pedantic Louis. I said I wouldn't be surprised. I explained why. I didn't make an absolute claim, just said I wouldn't be surprised based upon my first hand examination and comparison. I had the wheels off an LFA right in my shop. I had lots of other wheels/tires sitting around to compare against.

When I have unusual cars in the shop, I tend look closely things. I look at the suspension, I examine the engine, I peruse the brakes, I inspect the wheels and tires. I poke and prod. The LFA tires are very soft and gummy, even when they haven't been warmed up. They were softer than the Yoko A13Cs that were on my EvoX, and I daresay they were much softer than the Bridgestone RE050s I had lying around from my old G35 (which have a treadwear rating of 140!!).

Having had a fair bit of experience with Pilot Sport Cups (my least favorite DOT tire BTW until Toyo introduced the R888), they tend to be kind of hard - that's why they take a couple laps to warm up, and why they tend to last longer than other DOT tires.

In summary, I said I wouldn't be surprised. IOW, I don't trust UTOQ ratings (and I've explained why they don't work for comparison quite clearly) and based upon my touchy-feely results the S001s are very soft tires. Based upon the skidpad results, they clearly are very grippy tires too. You don't pull 1G on hard, low traction tires, no matter how good your suspension setup.

Let's put it another way, when the R35 GT-R first came out, it was accelerating way harder than any car of its weight and claimed power should have. I said at the time "I wouldn't be surprised if it were making 40-50 hp more than claimed", and I'll bet you said or thought something along the same lines. Lo and behold, a fair number of dyno tests have shown it to be a bit underrated. Advertising and marketing play games with numbers in this business. Who you gonna believe, the marketing guys or your lying eyes?

So in summary... you don't know.

Good enough for me.

I'll go by the UTOQ for this one.

@ akula1

"The LFA was race prepped? What's a Viper ACR or GT2 RS? Go look up how different the two LFA's are from each other relative to the Dodge and Porsche."

I'm knowledgeable about what I'm talking about. Clearly you aren't, though. A quick Google search will tell us the results. But because you're too incompetent to know how to Google search, I've done it for you.

http://www.automobilesreview.com/auto-news/lexus-and-gazoo-racing-at-nurburgring-24-hours-endurance-race/21951/

Tyres Front / Rear size 330/40R18
Type Bridgestone racing tyres

See that part where it says racing tires? That means the LFA at the 24 HR of Nurburgring had RACING TIRES ON IT. Like as in, you know, RACING SLICKS. Meaning IT ISN'T STOCK. Meaning IT'S NOT IN STOCK PRODUCTION FORM. Meaning IT'S BEEN RACE PREPPED. Meaning YOU'RE AN IDIOT AND DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Have I made myself clear yet?

"So in summary... you don't know.

Good enough for me.

I'll go by the UTOQ for this one."

So, you didn't read or comprehend a thing I wrote and choose to believe whatever makes you feel good about your favorite brand. Or, you missed where I wrote "I wouldn't be surprised" 100 posts ago and wasted all that time on a subject you didn't know anything about. If it makes you happy....

"I have about as much respect for cars that need a turbo/charger to compete as I do a ball player who needs drugs to be the best.

There are normally-aspirated supercars, then there is everything else.
Turbo doesn't equal talent."

Those are some of the most ignorant comments I've ever read. I don't even know where to start with them.

Your belief that naturally-aspirated cars are superior is just... well... stupid. Any person could make up any multitude of illegitimate factors as to why a car is better than another car because of X or Y or Z and sound like a complete tool i.e.

"My car uses fuel injection, not direct injection like yours, therefor my car is better because anybody can put direct injection into their engine and make it faster, which requires no talent."

or

"My car only uses six cylinders, not eight cylinders likes yours, therefor my car is better than yours because it uses less cylinders. Anybody can put more cylinders into their engine and make it faster, which requires no talent."

or

"My car only uses 300 mm wide tires, not 305 mm wide tires like yours, therefor my car is better. Anybody can put wider tires onto their car and make it faster, which requires no talent."

At the end of the day, it's the RESULTS that matter. It doesn't matter if your engine is a 4.8 liter NA V10 or a 6.2 liter supercharged V8, if one engine clearly makes gobs more power than the other and is SIGNIFICANTLY CHEAPER (which is the BEST INDICATOR OF GOOD ENGINEERING, in my opinion) then it is the better engine.

You can't argue with results.

Woops, posted that on the wrong review.