Appeals Court Strikes Down NYC Hybrid Taxi Law

I hate Nazi Greens imposing their stupid Nazi Green ways. If it were up to them we'd all be living in caves tilling the soil for some rich land owner and eating grass.

Wow Benson2175 - that is the kind of intelligent discourse that this country needs to move it forward ;)

If NYC can't make emission rules for taxi fleets because it violates federal law, then why can California get away with CARB regulations?

@bodyshopboy: +1.

@benson2175: I don't know the cost-benefit analysis and considerations used by the City of New York, but there are undeniable benefits for imposing stricter emission and fuel economy standards for cabs in NYC. There's no need to behave like Glen Beck.

There are around 15,000 cabs in NYC, 15% of which are hybrid vehicles. The last statistics I saw on the matter reflected that hybrids saved about 8-10 gallons per shift. That's a lot of fuel that can be better used for other utilities, instead of idling away in a metropolitan region.

During the first 100,000 miles, hybrid vehicles also have lower maintenance costs, because their brakes and drivetrain typically are prone to less wear and tear from repeated braking and acceleration from idle.

We're talking about cabs here - not people's personal driving machines. If you want a Mercedes SLS AMG, cool! But for something as purely practical as a cab, I don't see why governments shouldn't push for lower fuel use and emissions.

"But for something as purely practical as a cab, I don't see why governments shouldn't push for lower fuel use and emissions."

Perhaps because they are not allowed to by existing law. Bloomberg is trying to circumvent the Energy Policy and Conservation Act. Now you may think that it is fine that an elected person can circumvent a law because it "makes sense", but I would prefer they follow the law. Or change it if they don't agree with it.

Good question. See Massachusetts V. EPA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_v._Environmental_Protection_Agency ) for more. But it boils down to, simply, the EPA granted waivers to certain states declaring green-house gases and C02 a safety hazard and letting them regulate their own standards. New York was one of the states suing the EPA along with MA.
-mm

@throwback: Notice no one addressed the legality of New York's efforts. But rather was debating whether the government aka "Green Nazis" should have a comprehensive energy policy that imposes certain standards on industries or personal behavior.

Perversely (depending on your view), they probably have a better case at the Supreme Court level, since instead of arguing that their restrictions are to save gas (or some other nonsense), they could argue that the underlying federal law was unconstitutional, since it granted regulatory powers to the federal government not explicitly allowed under the Constitution (as it clearly does). I'm not sure the state of New York would want to sign up to be the front-line defense against the expansion of federal power (politically or otherwise), but at least that argument would be legally valid and defensible.

@Acbayard:
"During the first 100,000 miles, hybrid vehicles also have lower maintenance costs, because their brakes and drivetrain typically are prone to less wear and tear from repeated braking and acceleration from idle."

If switching to hybrid taxis reduces costs and increases the profits of taxi companies, taxi companies will gradually replace their Crown Vics with hybrid taxis by their own accord, and this legislation is unnecessary. This legislation is only necessary if switching to hybrids increases costs; if that is the case, cab fare will increase for all New Yorkers. Why can't the government let the free market work itself out?

Although Benson was using quite a bit of hyperbole to express his point, I don't think he is far off the mark.

"During the first 100,000 miles, hybrid vehicles also have lower maintenance costs, because their brakes and drivetrain typically are prone to less wear and tear from repeated braking and acceleration from idle."

Please supply some links to back up that statement with some facts....and how about a study that actually uses hybrid taxis vs. Crown Vics?

The ancient Crown Vic is a proven fleet, taxi and police vehicle....the Prius and Malibu are not.

jpdisarro

Because sometimes tradition is stronger then progress.

They have always used Crown Vics so change takes time.

Here in Vancouver most of our taxis were Buick Centurys. Now over 50% are Priuses. They are more reliable then the Buicks and use half the fuel. Saves a lot of money.

Best thing is when you see a row of them at the airport waiting, all you hear is silence.

It's the perfect taxi.

Me thinks Bloomberg will suggest an increase on the fuel price NYC levies, then offer tax rebates on hybrids to taxi companies.

Up the fees/taxes on the medallions and then offer rebates for hybrid/fuel efficient fleets. Easy.

"This legislation is only necessary if switching to hybrids increases costs; if that is the case, cab fare will increase for all New Yorkers. Why can't the government let the free market work itself out?"

Because the market does not price in the negative environmental damages caused by V8 cab's. It's always cheaper when you don't have to pay to pollute.

jpdisarro says:
"Why can't the government let the free market work itself out?"

Because the free markeet has proven time and time again that greed will trump integrity. That's why the gas companies were charging $5/gal a couple years ago for no reason at all, people were getting loans and homes that they never should have approved for in the first place leading to the government having to bailout the mortgage industry.

I don't believe in either a 100% socialist or a 100% free-market economic system. There must be some form of balance in which the free-market system can operate with little regulation, but not to the point where it can operate without being held accountable.

I believe any taxi should be a hybrid. Taxis do most of their driving in the city, which is where they are most fuel efficient. There is no reason to have a V8 crown victoria or an big suv. It just doesn't make sense.

"Now over 50% are Priuses. They are more reliable then the Buicks and use half the fuel. Saves a lot of money."

Again, some proof of that statement would be nice. I understand they use less fuel but have there been any reliable studies of long term performance? Crown Vics sometime have 250k miles on them before retired.....can a Prius do that?

Well said, b40.

As much as I dislike hybrids, they are ideal for NYC taxi service. Yes I work in Midtown Manhattan and have taken my fair share of taxi rides... mostly work-related.

TLC regulates the number of taxicabs in service, so it is never a free market to begin with. Why not roll in the hybrid requirments into the regulation while we are at it? Many car service companies (not yellow cabs) are already switching to a hybrid fleet.

"Again, some proof of that statement would be nice. I understand they use less fuel but have there been any reliable studies of long term performance? Crown Vics sometime have 250k miles on them before retired.....can a Prius do that?"

There are currently plenty of Priuses, Altima Hybrids, Escape Hybrids, and Malibu Hybrids in service. Apparently individual taxi companies already see the light and make the switch. Why is their own trade group so stubborn?

Also Crown Vics somehow manage to make the ride harsh AND floaty... something I thought were mutually exclusive until I took a cab ride.
Just about any modern unibody-based taxicab rides a million times better.

mrryte:

"people were getting loans and homes that they never should have approved for in the first place leading to the government having to bailout the mortgage industry."

Sorry, but a significant portion of the housing meltdown can be traced to government interference in the market. The government encouraged loans to minorities and low-income individuals through the CRIA and virtually guaranteed every mortgage through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Without the presence of these two psuedo-public entities, the demand subprime mortgages would have been reduced.

Every instance of government regulation has a set of associated unintended consequences that need to be carefully considered; unfortunately, politicians normally take the intellectually lazy approach and pass emotionally appealing legislation and outlaw the unpopular behavior of the week. The rate of economic illiteracy in this country is astounding.

"Crown Vics sometime have 250k miles on them before retired.....can a Prius do that?"

Yep, we've had lots of press about it because of the high number of Prius cabs. They have no problem going 400K to 600K KM without major repairs. The Centurys (and likely Vics) would require a least one engine and transmission change to go that far.

The gas saving is huge too. The Prius is designed to get great city mileage, the Crown Vic would likely get in the single digits.

Face it, it's just stubborn old school thinking that keeps cars like that on the road at all anymore.