How Hard Is It To Stop a Camry? Not Very

Amazing!

I don't think anyone is questioning Toyota's braking system. The questions arise from the throttle. The premise is that there's either a hardware flaw or a bug in the computer software.

I don't think it's entirely improbable, either. Any programmer will tell you that when you mass produce eletronic chips or load code onto a computer system, there'll inevitably be a bug once in a while.

what is the point of this? who said a camry couldnt be stopped at full throttle? No one credible. You are disproving things that arent even at issue. Camry owners have noted acceleration anomalies- they aren't saying the car's brakes don't work. Edmunds and other sites are having a field day trying to boost their image and page hits with these stupid Toyota stories.

"Are you surprised? We weren't. "

No one is surprised because no one said camry brakes don't work. Can you explain where you all got the idea that people were claiming Toyota makes bad brakes?

As much as I think the unintended acceleration claims were all BS, I felt that this one extra video on how to stop a car (Toyota) is just one too many. If one does not know how to use the neutral function in the transmission, he/she should not be driving at all, because that's just one thing one would have to know and should know before passing the driver lic. exam.

The issue is the folks claiming they can't stop their cars. Clearly you can if you step on the brakes. I guarantee you most car drivers think their engines can overpower their brakes.

oh yeah, and my car ate my burger, too!

While I agree that the issue at hand isn't Toyota braking systems, I will say that Edmunds is doing a good job informing people on how to stop their car should they have a problem with the accelerator. That said, I don't support the snarky comments in the articles. That's just degrading.

In regards to the stuck accelerator problem: my uncle is a mechanic at a Toyota dealer (a dealer my dad had worked at previously as well). He took out a brand new Camry on the Interstate to try to get the accelerator to stick. It did. Out of curiosity, he reached down and physically pulled the pedal off the floor, yet the car still accelerated. It wasn't until he shifted the car to neutral and applied the brakes forcefully that he was able to slow down. Both my uncle and my dad have reason to suspect that the problem isn't a physical one, but rather a computer-related one.

My point is that Toyota, NHTSA, and the rest of us are all fools to rule out a software glitch/programming issue/computer malfunction as the cause of the problem in lieu of saying it's a physical issue. I'm not saying I support either camp, but it's silly to rule anything out...

flicmod, get you uncle to get that on video (and change his last name to Edmunds). That's interesting and I'd like to see if it can be validated.

The first question I'd have is how did he get it to stick?

It's very, very had to stop a Camry from being in the top five in number sold.

Right, I think we can all agree:
- properly functioning brakes should be able to stop a car at full throttle
- so far it looks like except for that small 2010 Prius braking thing (otherwise known as regenerative braking) brakes aren't the issue
- every effort should be made to inform the public what to do if their cars experience unintended and uncontrollable acceleration

However, the issues I have had with this coverage is:
- There seems to be an attitude that since the brakes or neutral can prevent a crash, then this isn't really a problem. UA shouldn't happen, no matter how well it can be compensated for.
- One egregious fraud has been turned into the poster boy for this whole issue, while many seemingly legitimate cases are ignored
- The tone (specifically calling people idiots) is all wrong. Yes, people should know to use conventional and emergency brakes and that they can overpower the engine, and putting into neutral will stop acceleration while retaining power functions. However, mocking these drivers isn't the best way to educate them.

Here's the thing: If you make a car that will appeal to people who'd rather not drive and know nothing about cars, then those people will tend to buy that car. The media, both mainstream and automotive alike, spent decades proclaiming Toyota to be the greatest car company ever and put significant effort into ignoring any shortcomings, promoting the notion in the general public that Toyotas are perfect cars that require no skill or attention to operate and maintain. This debacle is a combination of Toyota really being just like everyone else, a customer based biased towards non-drivers, and management who knows they could make a car that would blow up on ignition and people would give them the benefit of the doubt and proclaim them to be high quality and reliable.

Report It flicmod says:

01:58 PM, 03/16/10

While I agree that the issue at hand isn't Toyota braking systems, I will say that Edmunds is doing a good job informing people on how to stop their car should they have a problem with the accelerator. That said, I don't support the snarky comments in the articles. That's just degrading.

In regards to the stuck accelerator problem: my uncle is a mechanic at a Toyota dealer (a dealer my dad had worked at previously as well). He took out a brand new Camry on the Interstate to try to get the accelerator to stick. It did. Out of curiosity, he reached down and physically pulled the pedal off the floor, yet the car still accelerated. It wasn't until he shifted the car to neutral and applied the brakes forcefully that he was able to slow down. Both my uncle and my dad have reason to suspect that the problem isn't a physical one, but rather a computer-related one.

My point is that Toyota, NHTSA, and the rest of us are all fools to rule out a software glitch/programming issue/computer malfunction as the cause of the problem in lieu of saying it's a physical issue. I'm not saying I support either camp, but it's silly to rule anything out...
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Have your father and uncle reported the incident? If they're able to purposely get the accelerator to stick, I'm sure they can repeat that experience and should notify people.

stovt001

Regarding you second paragraph. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It's frightening how many people who drive have no basic knowledge of how a car operates. I'm not saying you have to be a gearhead to drive but a little knowledge goes a long way. Unfortunately Toyota has fostered this level of ignorance and is dealing with the consequences.

Personally I believe this is a software issue and Edmunds should be lauded for trying to educate those people who still maybe driving a defective car. About time the media did something beyond breeding fear and ignorance.

Alman08, recent history seems to indicate reports like that tend to be filed in the circular filing bin at Toyota and/or NHTSA.

Noticed that Edmunds finally addressed the brake fade issue. The facts are that most of the problem is you cannot stop the car unless you have your full force on the brake pedal. The typical Camry owner is likely older, and dose not have the muscle to apply the needed pressure. The brakes WILL FADE AND NOT STOP THE VEHICLE!!!

How much track time and how many hours of driving school has the typical Camy owner had? I say little to none!

Can you now show me how to stop a runaway FJ Cruiser?

If someone is planning on purchasing a new vehicle, now is a good time to do so. Toyota has very good deals right now.

Hmmm. Odd. Consumer Reports tried that in a Venza and never could get the vehicle to TOTALLY stop, though they did get it down really slow. They also have another Prius driver who burned up her brakes at 70MPH without somehow engaging the override, though she did finally get it to stop though it's not told how.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/video-hub/cars/safety/17188412001/

Knowing now that NHTSA asked Toyota in 2007 to install an override, but they've only now begun to do that, even though it took Hyundai all of a month start to finish on all its cars with ETC, I'm not sure how much defending Toyota is entitled to.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/14/business/la-fi-toyota-brake14-2010mar14

and add to what I said earlier, I doubt that any dealership would let any mechanic take out any brand new car to test for unintended acceleration.

Alman08, you would be shocked to see what goes on at some dealerships.

And I do feel bad and apologize for reacting so strongly against IL's stance on this. I know the primary purpose is to educate owners how to stop a runaway car, but sometimes it seems like that attitude is that because they can be stopped, it isn't that big of a deal. Maybe that isn't what they mean to indicate, but it can be taken that way. And I can appreciate wanting to discredit a hoax, especially on such a serious issue, but with every news outlet making it their tops story it seems like the balance has swung completely the opposite direction. IL, in trying to provide a balanced perspective, offered an alternate view precisely when everyone else decided to.

alman08, many dealerships send a mechanic out of a test drive with every single car they receive. They want to catch defects before the customer does.

Im still waiting for that indisputable proof that any of this UA is actually happening. So far all we have is unsubstantiated inuendo and non-credible accusations. The CHP officer's crash was almost certainly a floormat issue. Other than that, there has been no proof of UA whatsoever besides the dubious complaints of probable morons...

majin_ssj_eric, you mean like Toyota's admission that there was a problem with the pedal?

@ alman08: The new car my uncle took out was a PDI, meaning the mechanic has to check that everything is operational and functioning as it should. I'm sure with the recall stuff going on, the dealer wouldn't mind this being tested at the same time.

@ others: My full knowledge of what my uncle did isn't known to me as it was relayed to me by my dad. I'll see what other info I can dig up and try posting it on a newer blog entry. Lord knows Edmunds will put more of these articles up, so it shouldn't be hard to find what I post...

Also, as far as I'm aware, my uncle reported what he did to his service manager. Where it went from there, I have no idea...

"About time the media did something beyond breeding fear and ignorance. "

Not sure what media you pay attention to but every news website and newscast on TV has been running "how to stop your Toyota in an emergency" stories for weeks. EVERYONE knows you should be able to stop the car by slamming on the brakes. Its not even an issue so I dont get the point of this video. CR and others have put up stories like this a while ago.

"So far all we have is unsubstantiated inuendo and non-credible accusations."

The recall is an admission that there was a problem with the pedal. I guess you missed that part.

"Other than that, there has been no proof of UA whatsoever besides the dubious complaints of probable morons..."

You nailed it. Aside from the hack "Doctor" -who shorted wires and spliced in resistors- no one has been able to replicate UA under controlled conditions.

Yes, so far, no problem has been replicated. Not saying it doesn't exist. A recall and replicating a problem are two different things. You notice the same people who are quick to defend GM are also quick to jump on Toyota. Just saying.

inlinesix, I think that's an attempt to compensate and create balance. For years, Toyota quality has been on the decline, and GM's quality has been improving. However, Toyota has been treated as a sacred cow, while GM can't catch a break. Most people seem to think I'm a GM fanboy, which isn't entirely true. I have no manufacturer or brand I favor significantly more than the others. However, I believe GM is better than it is given credit for, and that Toyota isn't as good as it gets credit for. Sometimes, trying to compensate for that I do come out more strongly for GM and against Toyota. I guess I just have a thing for the underdog, but I'd just like us all to get over past prejudices and evaluate the manufacturers on their merits as they stand now.

flicmod says:

05:22 AM, 03/17/10

Also, as far as I'm aware, my uncle reported what he did to his service manager. Where it went from there, I have no idea...
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From what I gathered based on what you wrote, trained Toyota mechanics should not have problem creating this so called unintended acceleration on purpose. If this so called unintended acceleration does exist, the bozos, I meant people, from the media, NHTSA, and those monkey faces in Congress should not have problem finding these mechanics to replicate the problem, time after time. Why hasn't that been done?
Also, Toyota has stressed over and over that there was really no problem with the drive-by-wire system. Why they issued a recall? Probably forced to do so by the whinnie Americans... just to fix a non-existing problem, therefore, there really wasn't a software update because there wasn't anything to be updated to begin with.

Stovt: Fair enough.

All the mainstream newspeople I've seen (aside from the Sikes story) has been quick to crucify Toyota... And GM's shortcomings havn't exactly been hard to come by in recent years. Toyota has lost some of its credibility, and will lose more, if anyone can pinpoint a specific repeatable problem. I dont think people are ignoring a problem with Toyota, they just have faith that the problems are limited and correctable. We'll see.

If I evaluated the two companies right now I'd buy the IS-F, or a CTS non-V.

"You notice the same people who are quick to defend GM are also quick to jump on Toyota. Just saying. "

Like who? And even if that was the case I don't see your point. The issue isnt GM vs Toyota, its the press' decision to jump into the fray to defend Toyota as if they are paid advocates. Its one thing to post a story saying Toyota owners are liars who lack basic driving skills- quite another to begin conducting tests to prove Toyota's innocence. If we want to read Toyota spin we can check their press releases or press conferences. No need for a 3rd party to be defending them.

"All the mainstream newspeople I've seen (aside from the Sikes story) has been quick to crucify Toyota..."

First of all ABC news (which ran the first stories about the problem) JUST ran a story about the California man's story and the lack of evidence presented by Toyota and the NHSTA. Where are all these mainstream media types who are crucifying Toyota? CNN.com just had a story up the other day saying Chrysler is the REAL auto company facing problems and this Toyota business is just a distraction from their woes.

Give me a break.

"However, I believe GM is better than it is given credit for, and that Toyota isn't as good as it gets credit for. "

According to the official IL poster guidebook that makes you a GM fanboy. Didn't you know that? I learned a while ago.

@brn,

"majin_ssj_eric, you mean like Toyota's admission that there was a problem with the pedal?"

If you dig hard enough into ANY system, component, or software you will find flaws. Most of the time these flaws are minor enough to be ok for production. In Toyota's case, they're being crucified by the media and public despite no actual repeatable UA conditions; rather we have "incidents" coming from an idiotic public. Toyota was virtually forced to issue a recall for SOMETHING; their reputation depended on it. Until the condition is repeatable, time will tell if the pedals were really the problem or not.

bimmerjay, I'm pretty sure Toyota was able to reproduce the sticky pedal issue. At least they were when they wanted to blame it on CTS.

If you'd made the same argument concerning the floormats, I'd agree. If the floormats were used as designed, there was no problem.

Defending Toyota includes saying SOME drivers are stupid. Shouldn't the media and car people (IL included) defend car companies from the portion of owners who are stupid?

I'm still not saying Toyota doesnt have its issues but what do you expect? Is a year of issues going to undo 20 years of arguably good quality cars?

"Defending Toyota includes saying SOME drivers are stupid. Shouldn't the media and car people (IL included) defend car companies from the portion of owners who are stupid? "

No. And the driver's behavior is not at issue. Saying we should minimize the problem simply because some drivers dont know how to stop their runaway cars in a logical manner makes no sense. American drivers are that great and American consumers are easily duped- Toyota has thrived off this same lazy culture and now people want everything to change because Toyota is being treated unfairly. If people had half a brain they wouldnt treat CR's recommendations as gospel and go straight to their local Toyota dealer to buy a new vehicle wihout checking out the competition.

"I'm still not saying Toyota doesnt have its issues but what do you expect? Is a year of issues going to undo 20 years of arguably good quality cars?"

Quality problems have been going on for well over a year, and Toyota even admits that. I worked at a Toyota dealership around the time they were making their really aggressive expansion in the mid-2000s, and you could really tell things were going downhill. In addition to the recalls (which included bad airbags in the Scion tC, faulty steering in the Prius, bad seatbelts in the Sienna, freezing transmissions in the Camry, and multiple problems with the new Tundra, in addition to many more I can't remember) interior quality seemed to be declining as well, with harder cheaper plastics on the new models and degrading interior assembly.

Would Toyota waste millions and its brand image on superfluous recalls? No. Blaming it on pedals/mats didn't fix it supposedly so what is the real problem? Grandma can't drive? Software?

Sidenote:
JD Power's (biased reporting right) 2010 top midsize car for dependability, is a Buick.
The top large truck in dependability is the Tundra (2007 model).
The top picks for initial quality in 2010 are the F150, Tundra (tied) and close behind are two GM trucks.

http://www.jdpower.com/Autos

oh and Cadillac's DTS ranked top in large premium car with JD Power's last study...