Does Diesel Have a Chance in America?

Emissions regulations in the United States will prevent diesel from being anything more than a niche product. The regulations are out of sync with every other area of the world. Powertrains must be modified to deliver different emissions, adding cost and equipment while at the same time reducing efficiency and performance. Lose, lose, lose.

Policy decisions in United States advocate a system of electric cars pugged into power grid supplied by coal burning generation.

Best solution is to harmonize emissions and safety regulations with EU and Japan. Helps open markets and decreases global cost and complexity. Auto safety and environment are not harmed as stringent standards and regulations are in place in EU, Japan and U.S..

There is no chance - until the government equalizes the taxes on diesel fuel to those imposed on gasoline. Anyone know why the government chooses to incentivize the utilization of gasoline???

+1 moparbad

I've never understand while Americans claim they don't want diesels because of the pollution but don't seem to mind that their electricity is produced by coal.

I don't buy the "old GM diesel" arguement either. Nobody says they won't buy a Ford because of the Tempo or a GM because of the Citation. Ancient history.

VW's excellent TDI has been around for more then a decade but Americans ignore it because gas is cheap and they don't really care about mileage.

Edmunds just did a diesel push in their Strategies blog. I'm going to quote what I wrote there:

"I'm getting sick and tired of the claims that the public still thinks diesel engines are noisy and stinky. Some do, but plenty do not. The 'Americans are stupid' arguments get real old, real fast.

Now let's get to the crux of diesels. You're not taking into account the long term costs. You can get more gasoline from a barrel of oil than you can diesel. Yes, it's adjustable, but that's expensive and limited. If diesel becomes popular, the price of diesel will skyrocket. Not only is that going to screw up your break-even estimates, but it's going to raise the cost of other goods that depend on diesel (food, housing, etc).

How does Europe survive with the rising popularity of diesel? First, most of them still drive gas cars. Second, it's heavily subsidized. Third, they buy a ton of diesel from other countries (like the US).

The rising popularity if diesel is a very bad thing. Let's take off our short-term glasses and start thinking big picture."

They only became popular in Europe because of favorable tax treatment of diesel fuel. Without a similar push here, something the ethanol lobby would never allow, diesel will remain a niche. It's a shame really because modern diesels are perfect for the way most American's drive: torque for off the line and fantastic highway cruising ability.

brn, I think that bio diesel is more feasible than say ethanol. It can be synthesized from non-food sources and be made from recycled bio oils. It's not a long-term gas replacement candidate, but it's a good option to improve the overall economy average of the US auto fleet.

I don't know how the tax rules work in Europe but diesel is cheaper then regular in Canada because it cost less to make. Even without tax incentives, the TDI engine has been the #1 choice for VW Golf and Jetta buyers here pretty much since it came out.

They are popular because they get dramatically better mileage then the gas motor and low end torque beats high end hp everytime for the average commuter.

Even if you doubled or tripled the number of car diesels on the road, the vast majority of diesel would still be bought but commercial trucks and heavy equipment. It would have very little effect on the price of diesel.

I've been reading more about the taxation of fuel in Europe. From what I can find it is not subsidized at all. In fact it is taxed quite heavily.

In most countries gas is taxed even more but not by the amount people seem to believe. (i.e. it's about 18 cents/litre more tax on gasoline in Germany and about 6 cents/litre in the UK).

In the States diesel is taxed more by an average of 6 cents/gallon (varies from state to state).

While I like the idea of bio diesel I think algae to oil is our best because wouldn't fight with the food supply and it can if I remember right can be processed just like standard crude oil.

Yes.

I think Americans would still like a diesel if it had the word hybrid next to it. Is there any reason there hasn't been a hybrid electric diesel yet?

Reason I heard is diesels don't like to be start/stopped all the time. Gas engines can be stopped and brought back to life much quicker and with less fuss then a diesel. Without the benefit of shutting the engine off as much as possible there was just not enough fuel savings to justify the cost of a diesel hybrid.

Don't know if it is true but it sounded reasonable.

"Who do you think is going to come out on top on this one?"

Hmm...let me see....which car company has a history of good foresight and excellent engineering. Hasn't needed my tax money to survive....
Didn't declare bankruptcy...
Close hundreds of dealerships...
Overpays union workers to NOT work...

That's a tough one...

The issue for diesel in the US isn't simply a function of fuel taxation rates, although that is a factor.

The problem is the few diesel cars offered over the last decade or so either (A) Cost too much or (B) Didn't perform well relative to their gasoline car competition or (C) Both.

VW/Audi persist with charging a substantial diesel engine premium for US cars, without justification. They have sufficient volume in other markets to develop economies of scale in diesel drivetrain production, yet they tack on a diesel premium and a DSG premium. Those two unwarranted upcharges make the purchase price (and TCO) uncompetitive, regardless of how wonderful the cars are.

Even if you could stomach those up-front costs (to get a better performing efficient car), the higher diesel fuel prices, sketchy VW dealer service skills, and a poor warranty (which conveniently doesn't cover $500 DSG oil/filter changes every 40,000) and VW's offerings practically beg you to buy a hybrid or gas car.

It really doesn't matter if the Jetta's TDI engine will last 300,000 miles, because at .51/mile, you'll sell it long before that. Especially if your dealer service department is lousy. Nor does it matter that the Audi A3 is a great car - it is grossly overpriced, and you can buy a far nicer, larger car for the money, or less.

Diesels have priced themselves out of the market.

bankerdanny, I'm keeping my mind open about biodiesel. I think it gets used more in commercial applications than is publicized. It's usability seem to vary tremendously on a number of factors, so I think they still have a fair amount to work out. Hopefully, it can be resolved.

Firstwagon: "From what I can find it is not subsidized at all. In fact it is taxed quite heavily. "

Subsidy may have been the incorrect term. Europe taxes the hell out of gasoline. They tax diesel less.

I get this from our semi-reliable friend Google
http://goeurope.about.com/od/transportation/a/gas_prices.htm
"Note that in many countries of Europe, Diesel fuel has less of a price premium to U.S. diesel. Some countries subsidize diesel through lower taxes. As a result, there are many more diesel vehicles in Europe compared to the US, and diesel fuel is more readily available. "

firstwagon: "diesel is cheaper then regular in Canada because it cost less to make"

In small amounts. That's the key. As long as X amount of gasoline is being produced, Y amount of diesel is inexpensive to make. Once Y exceeds a given ratio, it becomes extremely expensive to make.

firstwagon: "Even if you doubled or tripled the number of car diesels on the road, the vast majority of diesel would still be bought but commercial trucks and heavy equipment. It would have very little effect on the price of diesel."

I"m not sure where you get that from. Just a few years ago, diesel in the US was quite a bit less expensive than gasoline. When the US started exporting diesel to Europe (possibly Canada?), the price went up and up. I see this as an indicator that the increased use of diesel has already affected the price. Further popularity will further increase the price. Simple supply &demand.

Just the other day, I noticed that diesel was cheaper than premium for the first time in years (that I've noticed). I sure hope diesels stick around. The Jetta, A3, and Golf TDIs are all on my short list of cars to replace my aging Maxima one of these years. And, honestly, I have no intention of ever buying a GM product.

aoHurst states: Hmm...let me see....which car company has a history of good foresight and excellent engineering. Hasn't needed my tax money to survive....
Didn't declare bankruptcy...
Close hundreds of dealerships...
Overpays union workers to NOT work

Let it be noted that the service and repair cost for Audi/Volkswagen will far, far exceed your tax money contribution, as the latest JD Power rates the Volkswagen 3rd from the bottom on reliability, and Audi well below the industry average.

And how much do you think the German labor unions pay their members.

Or Volkswagens first foray in to the US manufacturing in the US in Pennsylvania, where they got tax breaks, only to pack up and leave a few years later.

Or excellent engineering that requires you to remove the whole front end of the car, just to replace a timing belt.

In a way, I hope diesel makes it bigger in America for passenger cars. One reason is that clean diesel has come a long way. Another reason is because it can utilize petroleum better than regular gasoline.

Ultimately though, I would much rather see diesel used to generate electricity at centralized power plants that feed homes to change all-electric cars.

And, even better than that, I would like to see that electricity generated via solar technology.

Until we get there, I think that diesel will be a very good fuel during transition. I also think it will always be around as an alternative source of energy in certain environments and applications.

Jared Salinger at AllWaysAware.com

I think it's an uphill battle in the non-luxury world. Among luxury car buyers (and tweener makes like Subaru and VW) the benefits of diesel are apparent. The ML350 v. the bluetec leans so heavily in favor of the diesel that it's a shock anyone buys the ML350. And MB owners do have a history of buying diesels. Ditto VWAG buyers. If BMW would sell a decent diesel (like a 330d) they'd suck up a healthy chunk of the 328i sales instantly, even with a 2k premium.

That said, Joe Honda buyer is not gonna let go of the notion that a hybrid is somehow a good choice if priced about the same as an equivalent gas car. They talk up crap like the Prius as if it's an event decent car. Heavy, slow, poor driving it's everything that makes "eco friendly" unfriendly.

Even worse, many are now talking electric cars. I actually heard a woman at the aquarium yesterday telling her kids (in the global warming section) that electric cars will solve the problems with pollution. When did any state switch to tidal, wind or solar energy? If it's nuclear energy or coal it's dirty. So the electric car just puts the blame on the power plant.

Hydrogen, from what I've seen, holds the key to something more efficient and friendly. And yes biodiesel can be special if it's harvested in a way that doesn't screw the world (like the tests with algae).

Anyway, I hold little hope for diesel to move beyond luxury brands. That's okay, there are some really fine diesel vehicles available and better versions will come. Ideally, the hybrids coming from MB and BMW will fail (they're lousy ideas and poorly implemented..

One of the biggest if not the biggest segment in vehicle sales in the U.S. is half-ton trucks. My biggest beef with the Detroit 3 is their cancellation of diesel engines that were already fully developed in 2008 from being offered in the half-ton segment. I like diesel as I have both a diesel car and a diesel truck (as well as gas cars and trucks), and a diesel motor is perfect for trucks, as well as serious SUVs. As for cars, I think there are enough diesel offerings in the car market today except for the light crossover segment - X3s and the like - which again are perfect for the diesel's characteristics. Why the VW Tiguan does not have a TDI version I will never know. The Q5, X3, X1, GLK, XC60 should all have diesel options as well.

Seems like what needs to happen is a mainstream manufacturer to make available either a mid-size crossover or sedan with a smooth, torquey turbo diesel that doesn't command a huge price premium. Imagine an Odyssey, Flex, Fusion or Traverse with 225 hp and 380 lb ft of torque that still gets 25 mpg highway. If there was a way for the oil companies to support this initative with low-sulfur diesel that costs no more than mid-grade without government regulation would sure be nice as well. I've driven a lot of very nice new cars as I travel, all of which would be even nicer with more torque and mpg. Particularly, the Mazda 5, Ford Escape & Flex, Honda Accord and Toyota Highlander are all relatively heavy for their base power and would benefit from the grunt a nice diesel provides. Personally, I'd pay $1000 more for a great diesel but realize most of America will not. So... c'mon manufacturers and oil, give diesel a chance in the mainstream!

jaredsalinger: "Another reason is because it can utilize petroleum better than regular gasoline. "

This is a common misconception about diesel. Please read my first post.

No chance in hell. Not until gas prices rise above about $10/gal.

There were about 10 large SUVs at my local train station this morning just sitting there with their engines idling. Consuming $3/gal gas at 0 mpg. Presumably to keep their owners warm. The train station has a large, comfortable and climate-controlled building for waiting passengers.

Americans are not and have never been really interested in fuel economy.

With the current way that things are, no. The general public looks at the up front cost instead of the overall cost. Spoke to a few family members and until I broke down the cost for them per mile, they thought it was pointless and a hybrid is much more efficient. Once they saw the price per mile vs their car and a hybrid, they were actually interested in it.

personally speaking, if I were to buy a daily driver, I would be looking at a VW diesel right now.

I think diesel does have a chance in America, but it may take a few years for manufacturers to do a better job of promoting its benefits.

1. Price: As the post suggests, diesel cars have higher up-front costs but long-term benefits like greater fuel efficiency and lower maintenance costs due to engine durability. OEMs need to do two things: 1) teach consumers to look beyond the price tag and consider total cost of ownership over several years, and 2) over reduce the price for the diesel itself. Instead of a $3 or $4 thousand step-up for a diesel, the right price should not be as drastic.

2. Diesels for mainstream customers, not just luxury buyers: It’s a shame that Detroit is putting most of its non-gasoline attention to hybrids and EVs. Detroit is all but ignoring diesels. I’m glad though the Europeans are trying – I’m sure they know a thing or two since over half of cars in Europe are diesel powered. The one complaint I have is that these German OEMs, with the exception of VW, sell high-end vehicles which do not cater to the needs of all drivers. That’s why I’m more excited about news coming from India – Mahindra, a company with decades of experience in utility vehicles, is bringing its diesel pickups here.

From what I have read, Mahindra can deliver on both of these, which makes me anxious to test drive one of them…

There's two sectors where I don't know why there's no more diesels:

1) Half-ton trucks. Diesel works better and is more durable for vehicles that (should) be punished for years and that are likely to tow or drive very loaded. The $6000-$8000 premium in the bigger trucks is partly because those are the top-of-the-line models and they go overboard with the engines. Also because people will pay for the difference (I'm sure there's a lot more profit in the diesel version of the truck). I would expect a smaller truck with a more reasonably sized diesel engine to not command such an absurd premium.

2) Minivans: You're buying a minivan, you already don't care what they think about you. Could as well get one that has decent fuel economy.

A few Problems that have been from the get go. The Diesel Engine was Invented By a German man named.... you guessed it Rudolph Diesel. There is not THAT much of an up charge to the vehicles. It's no more of an up charge then say putting a 2.0 T Engine into a Golf, or say a Jetta.

I definitely don't like the maligning that folks do in this argument. It's not just an "American" thing here. A LOT of people DO NOT LIKE TO GET PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE DONE. Period. On ANYTHING. Including themselves.

Also, you get what you pay for. You can have one E-Class Wagon for 20 years at an initial Cost of $55K, or you can have a whole bunch of different cars in that time. The Choice is yours. Practicality is not in a lot of peoples best interests.

My wife and I just bought our 3rd VW recently, guess what, It's a TDI Sport Wagon, and we spent literally 3 years, waiting for the right time to buy one. It was $28K, but when you can go on a 1200 Mile road trip and NOT change your driving habits and only spend $90 on diesel because you are averaging 40.6 MPG, it becomes apparent, that this is a much more practical vehicle.

People love $55K Ford Expeditions, but will talk crazy about a $55K MB E-Class CDI, why? because they can physically see they are getting LESS vehicle, and they will never use that Ford Expedition in the way they dream. Most of the time, It is just ONE person in it. Although, that E-Class Wagon can seat up to 7 people.

Diesels will work in this country, and they do. I am getting a $1300 tax credit from the US for having an efficient vehicle. The real issue, is not really the Auto Manufactures, its the Financing Companies that Charge a High Interest Rate because they know of the Tax Credit.

One of the huge issues, is do to A LOT of misinformation that circulates on purpose, and then people accept the misinformation as fact. Also, if people wouldn't be so smug about choosing things like Diesels, or Hybrids, or this is the best Vehicle for everybody type debate. There is a butt for every seat.

I like Diesels, I know they work better for me. But, i also know that if you have a Prius, you do a lot of City driving, and that is a much better car for heavy City Driving. The Escalade Hybrid driver, they are all sorts of Mixed up, and have No Idea what they want. Sounds Like GM.