Toyota, iPad and Obama by The Mechanic

""It took off like a rocket. The brakes had absolutely zero effect." These people were more than likely stepping on the wrong pedal"

More then likely? More like 100% they were stepping on the wrong pedal. That happens all the time and most time the media just blames the drivers age or how much they had to drink. Now the media and the lawyers get to blame one of the worlds biggest companies... $$$$$$$$.

I saw a lawyer on the nightly news that blames it on electronic gremlins (because he knows it impossible to prove they don't exist). He's already launching a class action suit even though he has zero engineering proof of his claim. It doesn't matter, juries love to blame big companies and he sees a huge paycheck in the end when they settle out of court.

I have to agree with firstwagon on the lawyer part. My lawyer neighbor has his behind on fire preparing for a possible lawsuit against Toyota. Lawyers are drooling over this situation. BIG MONEY! BIG MONEY!

Toyota has gotten greedy and their products have gotten less desirable at least for me, over the years. They have been so comfortable sitting on their laurels that they have slipped in their quality department. But wait! Isn't the defective gas pedal assembly made by an American company? Maybe the lawyers should sue that company instead.

Oh please! It just so happens that Toyota drivers step on the wrong pedal far more often than with any other maker in the country, excepting it seems drivers of F-150, many of whom admit they stepped on the wrong pedal because it's so wide? These complaints go back starting as soon as Toyota went to ETC. If they were merely stepping on the wrong pedal, why are many of them saying their brakes started SMOKING? It's not just Priuses, either. ABC also has a Highlander Hybrid and an ES350 driver saying the same thing. Yes, it boggles my mind that none of these people ever thought about Neutral or turning off the ignition instead of smoking up the brakes and/or running into a river or another car, but regardless, they're out there driving with the rest of us and Toyota has a duty to make sure they don't threaten the rest of us, either.

Comparisons to Audi aren't exactly useful because Toyota is much more firmly established; this isn't likely to kill them. Also, many Toyota drivers can't afford to go trade right now. But much more of this is going to come out in Congressional hearings and NHTSA is going back over every past complaint, most of which came in well before the CA ES350 wreck. Toyota's going to continue to roast in the press for at least the next two months. It won't be pretty and if even half of what's being reported by ABC and the LA Times is true, it shouldn't be.

"More then likely? More like 100% they were stepping on the wrong pedal. That happens all the time and most time the media just blames the drivers age or how much they had to drink. Now the media and the lawyers get to blame one of the worlds biggest companies... $$$$$$$$.

I saw a lawyer on the nightly news that blames it on electronic gremlins (because he knows it impossible to prove they don't exist). He's already launching a class action suit even though he has zero engineering proof of his claim. It doesn't matter, juries love to blame big companies and he sees a huge paycheck in the end when they settle out of court."

A local newscast just featured a 100% blonde TV reporter breathlessly telling the story of how a 2010 Camry jumped a curb and rolled over into a creek. The driver claims the engine sped up as he pulled into a parking spot and the brakes wouldn't stop the car. It sounds like a textbook case of pedal misapplication, but that salient fact was lost on the ditzy reporter.

I'm glad to hear some sanity on this forum. I was reading the NY Times (Not my favorite newspaper, but our politics prof. makes us read it) and their description of the problem. There were 200 comments on the article, and 90% of them read: "Toyota is the devil, and they are covering up all there electronic gremlins. Trade in all your toyotas and lexus's now."
It was all ridiculus and I was getting frusterated just reading it. I feel sorry for those who lost there lives, but I think this has a lot more to do with driver error than anything else.

What the hell are you even talking about

Dear Konocar400h...the english language seems to elude you. That is perhaps why you do not like the times. Also like it or not toyota has a major problem on their hands. Enough so to cause a halt in production and a massive recall. Driver error? Really? I suppose all of those ford explorer roll overs years ago were driver errors as well.

Why is there no option to rate articles such as these?

There should be no reason for politics to be discussed in a car blog. If I wanted to hear about your political views and opinions, write for a paper or a political blog and I'll read it there, okay?

What a disappointment, "The Mechanic".

I apologize. I don't even know what I was talking about in my last post.

Another garbage article courtesy of InsideLine.

First, this is a car blog not a politics blog. Keep your political opinions out of it.

To completely dismiss a possible ECM issue is foolishness. I'm sure the mechanic (who probably doesn't know a torx bit from a ratchet) is just upset because his favorite maker of appliances turns out to not be the holy grail of quality and reliability it mades itself out to be. Then proceeds to make an @$$ of himself by calling people who think there may be an electronic issue is someone who just sits at the computer and types and angry, poorly constructed blog post (sound familiar?).

Seems he forgot such armchair critics as former NHTSA administrators, Ricardo Martinez and Joan Claybrook, independent automotive safety experts, forensic mechanics and automotive electronics researchers, as well as many consumers. Oh and Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak.

seriously? you think ALL of these people are slamming the wrong peddle? come on really? The car malfunctioned idiots or else there wouldn't be so many of them doing this and it wouldn't be on the news.

This story is on the news because it's on the news. It's more of a PR battle than an engineering battle. In that respect, I think Toyota did a good job halting production and taking care of the recalls. As to whether or not the faults are real or driver error, it's hard to say and the only real way of proving it is through experimentation, statistically speaking.

Toyota is doing a horrific job from a PR standpoint- blaming floormats, now its the pedal mechanism. If they're wrong this time and it turns out to be electrical or anything else but- they're screwed 8 ways to Sunday. Hey Toyota/Lexus owners- you can actually shift gears in your cars while driving your slushboxes- my advice would be neutral- second choice is 1st- it may require more than a feathery touch you're used to under hard acceleration. If that doesn't work turn off the ignition- although CNBC's Phil Lebeau doesn't advise that as you'll lose your power steering. Really Phil as opposed to what alternative? Toyota has already done severe if not irreparable damage to their brand image and no doubt sales- Honda and Ford the likely beneficiaries.

The iPad is indeed disappointing, but how could it not be given the hype machine that surrounded it. Very few products with such hype actually life up to it!

Oh yah, and Toyota is the devil and hurray for health care?

dougtheeng;

I do think that their is a problem with the pedal sticking, but nothing I've seen or read indicates that there is some ECU glitch that causes the throttle plate to go wide open. Even assuming that there is such a glitch, the brakes can either stop the car or prevent it from moving. At this point every nitwit Toyota driver who causes an accident is going to blame it on the car.

roadburner:

was your comment actually meant for me? I didn't comment on the ECU or the peddle sticking in my post....

dougtheeng;

I was just referring to your sarcastic "Toyota is the devil" comment.

Toyota is the devil. I will now push my Lexus off a cliff before it makes up its own mind about where to go.

All I can say is: thank you very much for sticking to cars in the body of the article.

God knows there's enough places online for Apple and/or Obama flame wars.

Wow...isn't there some middle ground here. Nobody takes responsibility for their own actions any more. There have been multiple tests, including one using a 540 HP Mustang, showing that the brakes can overcome full throttle acceleration. Even better if you put it in neutral or turn the ignition back one click.

At the same time, obviously there is a problem with the vehicles. I am no Toyota lover (boring), but stuff happens. It is Toyota's responsibility to fix it.

So there, the driver has a responsibility to get off the cell phone, pay attention, and try all alternatives to control their vehicle. Toyota has a responsibility to fix the problem, and do it's best to make it right by those who were injured and/or died. (What is the price of a life?)

In the end, we all take our life and put it in our own hands and thousands of other drivers every time we get behind the wheel. If you don't like that risk, stay home, or take public transportation. That certainly has a good track record lately.

"Toyota president and COO Jim Lentz sold it pretty well on the Today Show this morning"

You think he did?? I think he did a piss poor job. Matt Lauer asked him specific questions, and Lentz didn't answer most them. He responded just like a corrupt politician would, by dodging the question and answering something else that wasn't even asked. For example, Matt asked him when Lentz thinks Toyota will have all the repairs completed by. Lentz said, "well, owners should receive recall notices by the end of this week." That didn't answer the question, at all.

I believe ford had a sticky throttle few decades ago, caused by faulty cruise control modules. From the people they've shown on the news, few of them said cruise control was on, so this could be another possibility of runaway Toyotas. Besides, I wasn't surprised how those unlucky Toyota/Lexus drivers didn't switch to neutral or just turn off the car. Any car could have a sticky throttle, driver just has to know how to act quickly in those situations. Heck, even my old E39 had a old sticky throttle cable. New throttle cable ($25) and 5 mins later, it was back to normal.
IMO Combination of boring cars and inexperienced/retard drivers made this a big media sensation.
I guess it's another case of how lawsuit happy has US became. Expect the Toyota prices to go up near the future, since they'll be paying for lots of lawsuits and transfer the cost to each future toybota they're going to sell. Cheers!

"These are the same people who thought there were spider eggs in Bubble Yum." - Love it!

You seem to incorrectly indicate that there were Audi acceleration issues in the 80's. That's false information. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_100#Audi_100.2C_200_.26_5000_.28C3.2C_1982.E2.80.931991.29:

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) concluded that the majority of unintended acceleration cases, including all the ones that prompted the 60 Minutes report, were caused by driver error such as confusion of pedals.[12] CBS issued a partial retraction."

I had never considered Toyota cars built for the driver. Once in a while when I drive my Mom’s new Camry I feel like I’m sitting on top of it instead of behind the steeling wheel. The ride feeling is as if I’m on a boat during the stormy weather. Every thing in this car was made with the thought to save money. And now Toyota is paying for their dishonest approach to build a car.
However, I didn’t get what does Apple and Toyota and Obama have in common. The Apple is changing the way we use computers and portable devices. They are the once who build the first laptop they are the once who pioneered the windows based operating system. And Toyota is one of the biggest car companies in the world and during this past season of Formula 1 showed better performance then BMW Sauber. What does it have in common with Obama? His article is pointless! And only shows his incompetence.

I wrote a law paper on Sudden Acceleration and researched NHTSA and FMVSS to learn more. The fact is this happens to all brands of cars and there are no exception. The problem is that the number of people killed in this most recent case is larger than other historical events. One thing to keep in mind is that Toyota has been to this rodeo before, in 1986. Yet, as other posters mentioned, Toyota and other Japanese brands have been given a pass, while media seeks only to find fault with American cars. Here is the data from Toyota's past.
• 1986 : 4561 Toyota Celicas were recalled because soldered terminals of the cruise control module may develop cracks due to improper application of the coating to the printed circuit board. The consequences of the defect were said to be that continued use of cruise control could lead to complete separation of soldered terminals and circuit failure; engine speed would instantly race and vehicle could suddenly accelerate, possibly resulting in an accident. [NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 86V132000].

PS: I love old Toyota cars, but lately they are nothing but badge engineered products at ego-inflated prices, IMO.

Peace!

Hmmmm. Well first, to comment on the mechanic, I'm glad he stuck MOSTLY to cars in this posting. I've got plenty of other options to go to if I want to hear personal opinions about the iPad or Obama, and while I can accept a passing remark for comedic or rhetorical affect, there wasn't much need for the amount that was here, although I guess then he wouldn't have his lame book title intro paragraph.

As for the meat of this article, I really don't know that anyone should dismiss the idea that the electronic throttle system in Toyota's cars could not have something to do with this problem. While there are supposed "redundancies" built into the system to keep problems from happening (which it would be nice to see a good tech article explaining these systems so that we know what the redundancies are, or maybe there is one that I've missed), what happens if there is a common problem with the "redundancies" that allows for them to not work as intended? Machines are machines, and as well engineered as you think they might be, they're always susceptible to problems. History has shown this over and over.

Sure, driver error may be the explanation for a few cases in this mess, but I'm sure that the NHTSA and the world's largest automaker would not be issuing recalls and sales suspensions for "driver error" alone.

All I can say is that I hope Toyota learns its lesson and refocuses on the core values that gave it its reputation in the first place.

Or, maybe, if we're lucky, Toyota sales freefall from here, they're forced back into a competitive position, where they MUST refocus on well-engineered, quality-executed products, and perhaps take some risks with the types of products they put out from a consumer standpoint to pull in buyers and give us some exciting product again.

While this is all very nice to think about, I'm not hopeful that it will happen. Their products will continue to be comfortable but dowdy and boring, and they will continue to lose my interest by the minute.

The one bright spot is the FT-86, but I'm sure the world would love to see the return of the Celica, the MR2, the Supra, and the rear-drive Corollas. Why does Lexus' generally unattainable (for most middle class consumers) F brand have to be the only exciting aspect of Toyota?

To echo bean3422 --

I know some Toyota models in the recalled group, like the Corolla, are so weak, a steep hill will slow it down, let alone brakes.

I also know that many people out there drive with both feet -- in an automatic. That is a well-known cause of brake failure, because nobody can keep a left foot "hovering" over the brake pedal without getting tired and depressing it to some degree. I stay the heck AWAY from cars that remain at a constant speed (or GOD forbid speed up!) with the brake lights constantly lit.

I can't help but wonder if there's a significant overlap of the unintended acceleration population and the 2-footers...

Look, I know Toyota has been greedy these days by making some really uncompetitive cars and selling them under their reputable name. But this is true. Is this the first time we heard lawyers doing injustice? They ARE drooling for money. Toyota cars these days don't have very good stopping distance, but no where close to being as bad as oldsmobile 10 years ago, and they stop fine. Or even if they don't stop, there's never been a big case about it. Use your brain and think a bit, and you should know.
Pedal stuck in carpet? Must've been flooring it, and you prolly deserve to get crashed. And how can there be only couple of case out of millions of toyota cars out there? Cuz 99.999% ppl are GODS and can drive defective car without crash? Or maybe it's cuz couple of people are too dumb to notice they're pressing the wrong pedal or something like that. Or maybe those were problems specific to that car, not necessarily all toyota cars. Think people.

I'm missing the logic in that last post by lzks. A couple of people? So this whole firestorm is all over a couple of people. Yes, the NHTSA puts out recalls, and Toyota suspends sales on cars that make up 65% of their total volume, for a couple of people. Makes total sense!

Can you prove there has never been any cases against Toyota on any of the millions of cars it's sold in which the brakes were ineffective? Sure, brakes usually work as intended, but don't make a blanket statement on something that you haven't factually proven.

So suddenly using the accelerator pedal is a crime? I'm not allowed to EVER floor the throttle in my car? I deserve to die for using all the acceleration my car is capable of? Hmmm, you sound a lot like one of those people DLu was talking about, along with many of the other frustrating drivers I've come across out there who like to meander across the road with no regard to the speed of other cars. And in case you didn't realize this, as just one point against your abhorrence for full acceleration, flooring the throttle sometimes is a better solution to avoiding an accident than stomping on the brakes. There ARE actually situations where it's safer and more effective to accelerate out of the way instead of stopping in the middle of it and getting hurt or killed.

You should probably be the one that should be thinking a little harder. And while you're at it, learn a little grammar, spelling, and punctuation. Comes in handy sometimes.

This won't be over for a very long time! Anybody that steps on the wrong pedal driving one of these cars is going to say "sticky accelerator" first thing. People are going to be dreaming of large paydays.

Firstwagon, I agree that most of incidents were probably caused by drivers hitting the wrong pedal, but Toyota accounted for 40% of the acceleration incidents the last few years. There's go to be something to it.

Hey The Mechanic,

I typically really enjoy your column, and in particular the snarky tone in which your prose is revealed, but I must be honest, I don't come to InsideLine to listen to commentary about politics or technology, I go to OTHER places for that, and as The Mechanic, I would imagine you would find little substance in an enthusiast such as myself offering up my musings on how the Detroit should re-invent itself. I'm an Art Director, and certainly would be in my area of expertise to comment on Toyota's tag line; moving forward; (ironic I know, maybe we should change it to "Innovation that never stops") but my take on the variables involved in the "accelerator recall" would be out of place, particularly if I posted them on my advertising blog.

Keep up the great writing, but keep it on topic!

It's sadly ironic Toyota's slogan is "Moving forward."

Just thought I'd like to add to my post from last night that the feds are now looking into a possible electronics as a possible source of acceleration defects.

Well there is a way to prove or disprove a case of car accelerating on its own. Most cars have "black boxes" which record events up to 6 seconds before airbag deployment. IN case of an accident insurance company or Toyota will be able to show what was happening and if brakes were applied

@ jlmcdonald21:

that is absolutely hilarious. made my day with that statement.

on a side note: it is quite a shame that such things are happening to Toyota and its customers, but these things happen. the company's reputation is no longer nice and bright as it once was, but im sure they'll get past this as they're reacting fast.

hey, its a new year and a new decade. anything can happen.

So now Toyota, Apple, and President Obama should take your advice? Considering the writing skill, you may want to keep your head parked under a hood.

Toyota told the Congressional committee Jan. 27 that causes of unintended acceleration are "very, very hard to identify," according to the congressional letter. Toyota told the committee "that sticking accelerator pedals are unlikely to be responsible for the sensational stories of drivers losing control over acceleration as their cars race to 60 miles per hour or higher."

But the committee noted that Jim Lentz, president and chief operating officer at Toyota Motor Sales USA, said Monday on NBC's Today Show that Toyota believed the sticky pedals were responsible for some of the incidents -- along with pedals trapped under floor mats.

Driver error? I can see isolated and disparate incidents, but not hundreds of the same exact problem spanning over 5 years (since 2004) with the same vehicles. If you think all of these are driver error, with that logic there have never been engineering faults in the history of manufacturing.
Guess all of those airline crashes were pilot error too.
Space shuttle disasters? Yeah, astronaut error.
Great logic.

"Who would have ever thought that Toyota, Apple and Obama would have potentially destroyed themselves all in the same week?"

Pure ignorance and close-minded he-say.

"Who would have ever thought that Toyota, Apple and Obama would have potentially destroyed themselves all in the same week?"

Pure ignorance and close-minded he-say.

Normally I find the Mechanic to be an ass. However, this time he nailed it! Rounding up Apple's iPhad and the messiah's healthcare plan is just icing on the cake. Trifecta!

Kudos to the Mechanic!

I thought this was a car enthusiast website? Sharing your political views discredits it.

Wow, a pretty well-written editorial from The Mechanic for a change, not just cheesily trying to tick people off. Loved the line about what Lutz was thinking.

I can see why people think Toyota will bounce back with its happy faced, pseudo-humble public persona. But not so fast!

Toyotas sell by default. Consumer Reports reading zombies walk in and drive out all Camry'd. Now that that spell is broken for all but the most heavily indoctrinated, an easy 20% might be stripped off the sales chart. Being the kind of fat, over-employeed company that might make old GM blush, how long before a major sales hit starts the financial meltdown? Sure, they have some cash reserves, and the Japanese government will soften any landing for them no questions asked, but a big part of Toyota's success is momentum, and once that swings, the utter end might not be so hard to imagine. Certainly, Toyota products are more resistable than ever.

If this article were written a wee bit better it would rise to the level of gibberish.