Lexus Described in Congressional Testimony Still On the Road

and she's a liar and should have been spotted out... of course unless if she's actually hired by congress to stage this jerry springer show on capitol hill, then...

LOL!!! She shifted into Reverse? She didn't really try "all available gears." Did she try the "emergency shutdown initiation" gear? Did she try to beam herself out of the car?

Either the shift indicator is broken (highly doubt she overcame the shift lock mechanism) or she's a big liar. I don't care for Toyota or Lexus (don't buy the cars, don't like their way of handling things), but this is effing ridiculous.

and the funniest thing was many bought her stupid story... how sad this country has become. oh wait... perhaps this country has always been like this.

who cares what she did or didnt do. Driver skill isnt the issue at hand here, its cars accelerating without reason. lots of the auto media folks are piling on owners about how they should know how to handle the situation. Its irrelevant- there is still a problem. Saying Toyota is getting too much blame because owners should better know how to handle SUA is absurd. If cars werent having this issue there would be no hearing featuring an exaggerating former Lexus owner. And the fact that the car is still on the road is relevent how? Oh, thats right its not at all.

again I ask... why is it that no one else around the globe has reported unintended acceleration on his toyota?

Lots of class acts here... Officially blaming the victim. It is a sad statement when the boss, and the North american boss admit there are issues, but the captain save-a-ho internet, like a dog with a bone, continue to apologize and spew tin foil hat theories..

So who here is a certified Lexus mechanic and knows exactly how this shifter works? Need I remind everyone here again that a trained driver, a Calif. state trooper, was also somehow unable to find any way to slow down the ES he was driving? Anyone here saying that they know for sure she is a liar who doesn't work on this transmission is a....well, liar.

she was on cnn and said that Toyota should be put out of business for this and that "they brought it on themselves, so they deserve what they get" with comments like that and that reverse didn't work? Yeah she sounds like a shill (plant) just there to lie.

dg0472, read about the CA state trooper case again and pay special attn to the 911 call.

She's no different than millions of (dare I say) women (and men too) who drive cars. Don't blame her for not being an expert driver. She's a "typical" driver who encountered a scary situation, and dealt with it as best she could.

to dg0472- i'm not defending toyota at all let the truth come out, that's what is important. but for someone and only ONE person who says her car starts on its own and that the fact that it's still on the road is VERY suspicious! How can it still be on the road if it's a terribly faulty car?? It shouldn't have been re-registered at all! That's what we're all saying, this is very suspect. At first I believed her, but once I began to look at the car was sold without any more complaints, plus her diatribe of how Toyota should be put out of business and that all those "millions that work for Toyota". Wow, nice lady. But it's okay for GM and Chrysler to stay in business with all the faulty cars they've producted too?

I was thinking the (Camry based) Lexus ES300 was built in Japan and used a different supplier for the accelerator. If the ES did accelerate by itself that alone proves it's not the gas pedal but rather some electronic glitch!

so if we discount this woman as a liar how does that help the 34 who have died in incidents related to this problem? If she was the ONLY person making these claims then perhaps the holes in her story would mean somthing. Alas, she is hardly the only one making these claims. The point isnt the need for smarter drivers, its the need for cars to stop accelerating for no reason.

to 1487- actually she IS the only one making a claim that the car started on its own. the rest of the unintended acceleration claims haven't said it tried to start itself and drive off. that's the difference here. and what about the new owner of her car? why hasnt the problem come back? if there was such a problem how come its still on the road?

"who cares what she did or didnt do. Driver skill isnt the issue at hand here"

Because if she said she did while she actudally did not, her entire testimony is not worth the paper it's printed on.

People need to realize unless they are entirely certain of something, they should refrain from making any kind of statement. There can be serious consequences to what comes out of one's mouth.

"And the fact that the car is still on the road is relevent how? Oh, thats right its not at all."

It cannot get more relevant than this. Did she properly disclose this "defect" during the sale? If so, the selling dealerships should be hung dry if the current owner gets into an accident due to this "defect". If she did not, guess who should be held liable for this failure of disclosure?

alman08 says: "again I ask... why is it that no one else around the globe has reported unintended acceleration on his toyota?"

again I answer... this is happening elsewhere.

For a number of years, Toyota has been addressing unintended acceleration issues in Europe. Toyota knew there was a problem. They acknowledged it in Europe, yet denied it in the US.

Has anyone read the C&D test they did on the "unintended acceleration" problem?
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

Anyway, they concluded that 70-0 in a new Camry V6 requires 174 feet, while 70-0 with the throttle full open only requires 190 feet! Really, only 16 more feet.

And 100-0 increased from 347 to 435 feet.

With these numbers in mind, it's really not acceptable to say that "driver skill isn't the issue here." Granted, cars should NOT accelerate on their own, but manufacturing defects happen, and happen all of the time. 34 people would still be alive if Americans learned to respect the power and responsibility that comes from piloting two tons of metal at high velocities, and got their heads out of their asses. Then this recall could be dealt with in an appropriate setting, not in some parade of idiocy in front of our congress, which quite honestly has much bigger problems to be dealing with.

I'm willing to bet that all of the people who died tried pumping the brakes. By the time they figured out that they should hold down the brakes with quite a bit of force, brake fade made it impossible to stop. That would explain why the state trooper's wheels were "on fire, consistent with long, heavy braking," yet he was still traveling at 100 mph.

As always, I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Hopefully we'll find it some day, so those of us who aren't interested in the political/journalistic garbage can just find the truth.

These hearings are just another example of the usual congressional witch hunt that results when our legislative branch wants some free publicity. The D3 had their day in the barrel a while back, and it's now Toyota's turn. And as always, the PI attorneys are frantically stirring the pot as visions of multi-million dollar verdicts dance through their heads.

It really bothers me when people say "There has been 38 deaths attributed to this". What evidence supports that? The family members just say that or?? I understand the California incident, but the others? I would like to hear about it.

Is it me, or does the congressional hearing sound more like a show than a hearing? They bash toyota and many of them have little knowledge on the subject. Some even go on to tell toyota how they should structure their company. Sorry guys, you don't have a 60% ownership stake in toyota. Let them do their job. They messed up (like many, many other auto companies in the past), and now they are fixing it.

To all above throwing stones. It is a well documented fact that automobiles have a safety feature that allows the gear selector (automatics) to be placed at the "P" park or "R" reverse position at driving speeds without any damage caused to the drivetrain.

@oscarav098
I believe that it is impossible to shift into reverse or park while moving, but you could be correct, as I have never tried it. What I know is possible is neutral, which would end the acceleration.

Maybe the only thing that keeps one from shifting into reverse or park while moving is a brake padal sensor? If so, and the brake pedal is being pressed followed by trying "all available gears" it is possible to move the lever to R or P?

so the issue isnt the Toyotas, its the drivers. seems like Toyota agrees. How's that philosophy worked out for them lately?

Instead of trying to worry about the defect we attack the people who didnt handle the defect properly. To the person who mentioned the C&D issue- that extra 16ft of braking was on a closed course with them applying MAXIMUM braking pressure in a planned experiment. If this issue occurs to an unsuspecting driver in traffic the panic and traffic are more than enough to lead to an accident. Of course it only takes 16 more feet to stop the car when you KNOW you are conducting an experiment and apply full braking force. And whose to say an extra 16 feet isnt enough to lead to an accident?

Getting a license is a joke in this country so now that Toyota has a PR problem everyone is shocked and appalled and how little US drivers know about how to control their car in adverse conditions. Please.

"It really bothers me when people say "There has been 38 deaths attributed to this". What evidence supports that? The family members just say that or?? I understand the California incident, but the others? I would like to hear about it."

I said 34 deaths. And there are plenty of stories out there about this stuff. My guess a mixture of eye witness accounts and police investigations ruling out drugs or alcohol are at the heart of that figure. I think its funny that so many are saying its the drivers and their lies at fault when its been documented that Toyota has had FAR more complaints about this problem than any other automaker. But I'm sure their all liars just like this lady.

Still not convinced this problem is as large as the media is hyping it to be. Toyota sold millions of vehicles last year. Just like Audi getting slammed in the press in the 80s, I think the same is happening here. Will Toyota get demolished by innuendo? If the press has its way...yes.

This woman is typical of lack of even basic emergency driving skills and knowledge exhibited by most US drivers. How friggin' hard is it to think to shift into neutral and look for a place to pull over and stop? Too hard for most people apparently. Oy...!!

Good article on the subject here: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

no recall affects a large % of produced vehicles. Those claiming Toyota is being unfairly attacked need to realize that. What % of Pintos exploded? My guess is it was a very small number. Percentages aren't the issue here. If you make millions of anything it only takes a fraction of % of those cars to have a major issue to lead to significant damage. Toyota is falling so hard because of their carefully cultivated image of superior quality. If this were Chrysler it wouldnt be such a big deal. The Toyota loving media feels betrayed and they are taking it out on Toyota. I'm sure GM and Ford are saying "Welcome to the club".

@ konocar400h,
This is just one example (there are others):
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2008/01/episode_84_viewer_special.html

I apologize for misstating the number.

"My guess a mixture of eye witness accounts and police investigations ruling out drugs or alcohol are at the heart of that figure."

All accidents are tragic tragic, but ruling out drugs or alcohol does not mean an error. And I fail to see how an eye witness account can definitively prove that unintended acceleration is the problem.

Also, didn't Audi have FAR more complaints about their automobiles in the 80's than any other company?

@ brn

maybe I have missed reading it somewhere, but can you please provide link to articles or proof that Toyota has been addressing unintended acceleration on Toyota cars for a number of years?

alman08,

I'm taking the lazy way out. I googled an took the first link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/business/global/25toyota.html
"The first reports of sticking pedals surfaced in Britain and Ireland in late 2008. By August 2009, Toyota began a production change on cars sold in Europe"

I've read other articles (too lazy to track them down) that claim it goes back more than five years in the EU.

Either way, when the issue became prevalent here, they initially denied it. They then blamed CTS. Not very nice.

thanks brn... indeed that info came from Inaba. I apologize.

thanks brn... indeed that info came from Inaba. I apologize.

I don't guess it has occured to any of the above lady driver (Mrs. Smith) bashers that , if the electronics in a vehicle have faulted enough to cause unintended acceleration, they may have also faulted enough to to prevent : 1. TURNING OFF THE IGNITION, 2. SHIFTING THE TRANSMISSION INTO NEUTRAL OR ANY OTHER GEAR, 3. PROPER OPERATION OF ANY SYSTEM IN THE VEHICLE.

Late model vehicles are all basically "drive by wire". That means you do not have a mechanical linkage, to provide a failsafe backup, to any system in the car. When they say "electronic steering" issues on some of the new Corollas, that is exactly what they mean.

"Late model vehicles are all basically "drive by wire". That means you do not have a mechanical linkage, to provide a failsafe backup, to any system in the car. When they say "electronic steering" issues on some of the new Corollas, that is exactly what they mean."

Wrong. No car has a brake by wire or steering by wire system. And the Corolla simply has electrically powered assist- as opposed to hydraulic assist.

1487 says:

"And the fact that the car is still on the road is relevent how? Oh, thats right its not at all. "

Would you care to explain why the fact that the car has been driven 27K miles after the incident without any trouble is not relevant to the the article?

I give you my reason why it is relevant. The post/article is calling into question the credibility of the testimony of Ms. Smith. She testified that she shifted the Lexus "into all available gears, including reverse, but nothing happened." I do not have first hand knowledge of the transmissions in the 2007 Lexus ES 350, but I do know for a fact that the transmissions the 2007+ Toyota Camry V6 have a mechanical linkage between the shift lever and the transmission via a cable. I have seen it personally (my wife drives a 2008 Camry SE V6 and it drives/handle very well btw, all Camrys should have this suspension and steering tune but that's for another discussion) and it is also shown the Factory Service Manual. Since most people here (including 1487) agree that the ES 350 is just a re-badged Toyota Camry V6 and share the same engine (2GR-FE), I would assume that they also share the same transmission (model U660E). Since there is a mechanical connection between shift lever and if she did shift the Lexus into all available gears and nothing happened, that would conclude that there was a mechanical failure with the shifter, linkage cable, or transmission. This mechanical failure should have shown up when the dealer investigated it and would surely have shown up in the 27k miles after unless the car is self healing. I don't think we have cars that can repair themselves mechanically yet do we? That's why the fact that the vehicle was driven 27k trouble free miles after is relevant to the case the her testimony is not credible.

1487, you are right on. I think the C&D test was not an accurate summary of what could be happening. I have researched many of the people who have crashed and I think the best driver we can evaluate for skill is the CA highway patrolman. If anyone could have stopped a malfunctioned computer controlled Lexus it was him. Yes, I did listen to the 911 tapes. I also read reports of witnesses who saw the Lexus bucking at around 50-60mph with hazards on showing he was trying to stop the thing. The witnesses say that they passed the Lexus then saw it fly by in the shoulder going well over the limit. I honestly believe that he tried to throw it into neutral, park, whatever and had no response. This would prove a computer malfunction. I don't know if this lady's story is completely accurate, but I don't think we can assume that she did not shift into neutral or park.

alman08, no biggie. I blame the popular media. They're too focused on meaningless demonstrations (I'm looking at you ABC) and less focused on providing the whole story.

1. I don't deny that Toyota is likely at fault for making a faulty product and delaying its response in recalling the faulty product. A faulty product is a faulty product.

2. Cars are inherently dangerous tools -- that's why you need a license to operate one, nor are you allowed to drink, talk on the phone, etc while operating one. Car accidents are the number one killer of young people (up to about age 45) -- kills more people than all diseases combined for that age group.

As tragic as the deaths have been, people also need to realize that bad, unexpected things happen while driving and need to be prepared. It doesn't matter whether a gas pedal or a drunk or a teenager driving way too fast is the start of the accident; blaming them will never bring these poor souls back.

Would you feel safe if your pilot did not know how to handle emergency, unforeseen situations? Flying in an airplane is a LOT safer than driving a car, but nobody bats an eye if people drive around only knowing basic traffic laws (if that) and don't even know what the heck the "N" is there for.

People want to blame this, blame that. Nothing is a good excuse for people not knowing how to operate their cars during unexpected emergency situations. This does NOT mean the accidents are their fault; just means that a not-so-great car driven by a not-so-great driver is a bad combination.

To roadburner and titancrew, maybe I should have said "drive by computer", rather than "drive by wire", but the theory is the same.

The electrical assist on the Corolla is controlled by steering wheel input thru the computer to the steering sector, and the transmission solenoids that provide actual shift and lockout functions are also electrical, being dependent on signals that come thru the computer.

Power assisted brakes depend on vacuum that may be lacking at high engine rpm, so an abnormally high engine rpm from improper computer signals may make them marginal, at best.

The mechanical linkage may be there, but the ability to use it is electronically controlled.

"how does that help the 34 who have died in incidents related to this problem?"

A quick shows roughly 30,000 people died in traffic accidents last year (not counting pedestrians).

Several thousand of them must have been in Toyotas given the number of cars they sell.

I wonder what percentage blamed their car for the accident? Right now the media (and the government) only care if it's a Toyota but I'll bet if you research it you'll find countless claims that "the brakes failed" or "the steering didn't work " or "it took off on it's own" no matter what the maker of the car is.

Both my dad and my father in law were RCMP officers and they always had tonnes of excuses to tell that people came up with rather then admit they were responsible for an accident.

There may be real mechanical problems here but all the media stories I've seen are very questionable.

popsavalon,

Yes, the shifting from 1st to 2nd, etc. is controlled by a computer and actuated by solenoids. But the shifting from Park to Reverse Gear to Neutral to Forward is actuated by a mechanism controlled by the shift lever. Many auto website and magazines have been able to put the car into neutral at WOT including the automotive professor when he was conducting his experiments.

here is a tip for firstwagon, RB and all the other "blame the victim" types. If the cars didn't have malfunctions there would be need to second guess how the drivers handled the malfunctions. While it may be true that many of these accidents could've been prevented if proper procedures were followed the BOTTOM LINE is that the cars shouldnt be accelerating. At this point the idea that folks are dismissing all the evidence and calling people liars is hard to believe. The professor that ABC news features showed that he could induce acceleration by shorting out something in the drive by wire system. There is PLENTY of evidence that there is a problem even if you chose to ignore it. I'm also waiting for an explanation of why Toyota has faced far more complaints than any other automaker about SUA if its simply a fabricated issues as some are claiming. Do you think all of these thousands of owners collaborated to lie about this issue to bring Toyota down? Come on folks.

"A quick shows roughly 30,000 people died in traffic accidents last year (not counting pedestrians).

Several thousand of them must have been in Toyotas given the number of cars they sell. "

common sense dictates that the SMALL number of deaths we are talking about relative to the number of crashes that involve Toyotas means that these incidents stood out. Sorry, but if you arent impaired by drugs or liquor or having a heart attack you typically dont lose control of your car and crash for no reason. I'm sure if we didnt exclude crashes where weather or impairment were issues the numbers of folks who have died in Toyotas over this same period would be in the hundreds or thousands. Once we acknowledge there is a problem that has caused many accidents (which you cant seem to do) its kind of ridiculous to draw a line and say "but I'm sure no one died as a result of this". I guess we can say that the people who died due to exploding gas tanks should have practiced jumping out of their Pintos in a timely manner instead of burning to death.

The premise that we should spend more time examining why drivers didnt handle ther runaway Toyotas better than we should examining how and why they let this happen is nonsense.

Obviously, there are elements of truth in both sides. Congressional testimony is nothing but a dog and pony show. It's ridiculous. You put the camera on someone, and objectivity goes out the window, and a victim is not likely to be cross-examined in this situation. It's political theater. And it's designed to make Congress look like they do their job.

However, beneath the hyperbole, the experience is valid and there obviously is a problem. But, you would hope that a carmaker that is forthright and vigorous and cooperative would not be subjected to this wild political drama.

The real issue here is that Toyota probbaly couldve prevented most of this bad PR by acknowledging the problem early on and spending a little money to correct it. They supposedly have $30b in cash but they were too cheap to address this head on before it became a PR nightmare. From what I've read and seen on TV it appears Toyota dealers have generally been dismissive of consumer complaints regarding this problem which explains a lot. The engineers in Japan wont know how to fix a problem that its dealers refuse to even acknowledge. Its a sign of arrogance amongst their dealers and the entire organization. If you report a problem its YOU that is the problem. They blamed the ES350 accident on floormats and "user ignorance" but he was driving a dealer issued car which means the DEALER put in the all weather mats, not the driver.

1487- i agree that if toyota doesn't turn around and quit its arrogance that has permeated the company it will just cease to exist. Can't have problems and continue to ignore them, ask GM about that!

Im sure they will take action but the damage to their marketshare may be irreversible. Toyota's strength is based on the fact that many Americans see them as the default brand for quality. Many Toyota owners SWEAR that they will be taking a serious chance if they buy another brand. That has been changing slowly but this accelerates the whole process and their marketshare for Feb is about to hit a 5 year low. I wouldnt expect things to get back to normal once all the cars are repaired and ready for sale. This gives many stubborn satisfied people impetus to check out the competition and once you do that you realize much of Toyota's lineup (esp. its top sellers) are mediocre.

shes lying. If you shift an auto into park while moving you will absolutely hear a terrible grinding most likely followed by a dropped transmission. It's so easy to see a liar. Very few are good at it

mzbamf, modern transmissions won't let you destroy them quite that easily.

mzbamf, that was the subject of my earlier posts. Late model cars have ELECTRONIC sensors and lockouts that prevent the driver from doing certain stupid things, like putting the transmission into park or reverse while the vehicle is moving.

The real issue in the Lexus UA is determining if a computer glitch might also prevent the driver from performing life saving functions, like shutting off the ignition or shifting into neutral while the vehicle is doing 100 MPH. I do not think anyone really knows the answer to that question........ maybe Toyota does, but they are not talking.