Sources Confirm Turbocharged V8 for 2011 BMW M5; No Motorsport 1 Series

hondacura4,

The depression is so drearily found in your succinctness of conciseness.

Bummer. Turbos just aren't as much fun as a high revving M engine.

Before I garner criticism, my redundancy was intentional...

Coupe seats 4 wins over 4 door that seats 4. Looks is everything.

Damn. I would buy an M1 in a heartbeat. All they have to do is increase the size of the turbos a little and trade some of that shelf-like torque curve down low for some insane top-end response. Too bad the resulting ~430hp/~400tq would put the sacred M3 v8 to shame.

Not to mention what corvette power in a 1-series would do the rest of the car market. If IL had one, they'd be replacing rear tires every 500 miles.

Slickersdrip, have you have fallen victim to BMW Motorsports new marketing scheme? AMG is turning a new leaf while BMW M is diluting itself in the name of penny pinching.

"Bummer. Turbos just aren't as much fun as a high revving M engine."

My thoughts exactly Blue. 500ftlbs of torque is a nice jump over the previous 369 but the lack of revs will neuter the M5's character substantially.

No, I certainly have not fallen victim to their BMW Motorsports scheme. I look down upon their decision to do so. ///M is reminding me a little bit of Abercrombie & Fitch in the late 1990's when it was still risque and exclusive... and now it's just any elementary student's choice of clothing.

Wow, that really is a bummer. The V10 was amazing, the engine of a Lambo Gallardo stuffed into a 5 series.
Now the M5 will be gaelick, like the POS RS6 here in Europe: YAY, lets build an autobahn cruiser!

What amazes me most though is how some welcome the turbos as a good thing. Turbos are great for brainless stomping on the gas pedal in straights, but for 10/10ths you'd better have a NA engine, where you control the horses your engine is putting out with great precision.

It seems like the current M3 and M5 will be the last of great NA engines at BMW. Now if you want that kind of engine you'll have to spend a lot more for a GT3 or F430... what a shame.

Now all BMW's missing to confirm that the new M boss is the most gaelic person alive is to announce the M5 will come with a 6 speed slushbox...

I wish they had kept the V10, even if they hadn't touched output at all, and added the MDCT which could handle the torque it puts out... that little update would have made it better than the competition all over again.

Cheers

I wonder if the M6 is going to keep the V10.

Torque is useful but n/a high revving power is fun. M cars have always had both, which is what separates them from the the rest. Many manufacturers put out big hp numbers but few do it with the high revving intensity of BMW's M division.

AMG is changing their philosophy, building AMG exclusive engines and now have more say in actual platform development. I used to have no respect for AMG products as they were simply modified versions of the mainstream offerings. If they would only offer manual trannies.

BMW M had more exclusive offerings and engines but now it seems like they are going the way of the old AMG in terms of drivetrains.

"I wish they had kept the V10, even if they hadn't touched output at all, and added the MDCT which could handle the torque it puts out... that little update would have made it better than the competition all over again."

Syt, that V10 had A LOT more left in it. I could easily see BMW giving it a bit more displacement (5.5Ls) and output rising to 550hp/400ftlbs of torque while still retaining its high revving character. The M5 has never been about brute force, unfortunately that's changing.

"I wonder if the M6 is going to keep the V10."

Mdaisy, given the M6 is based off the M5 it will receive the V8TT also.

I'm wondering how the BMW M enthusiasts feel about this?

Id say the change is more about increased fuel efficiency than anything as the X5M with the 550hp V8TT gets 18mpg hwy while the current V10 M5 gets only 17mpg hwy.

Given the substantial difference in weight between the M5 and X5M the V8TT M5 should do much better in the EPA cycle as long as its off boost as that's how turbo engines get their best EPA ratings.

Hmmmm...

CTS -V: 556hp @ 6100rpm / 551ftlbs @ 3800rpm

BMW M5: 555hp @ 6000rpm / 500ftlbs @ 1500-5650

The Cadillac obviously has a substantial displacement advantage of 1.8Ls however the torque curve of the BMW V8 is ridiculously thick throughout its rev range. Id like to see a dyno sheet comparison to see where both engines shine.

Is it me or should the Cadillac V8 make more peak torque? Shouldn't it be in the 575-595ftlbs range given its displacement advantage?

hondacura4, i also think the change has a lot to do with efficiency... what killed the V10 is the looming economy standards.

In top gear magazine, they took the CTS-V, CLS63, M5, and XFR to the PCH around San Francisco. The reviewers, clarkson especially, complained that the M5 was too high strung and too intimidating, and just "too damn noisy." It seems like a stupid thing to say about a 500 hp super sedan, but he has a point. People today (meaning the mostly corporate execs who buy these cars) don't have enough driving skill, dedication, and passion to drive something as challenging and rewarding as an M5. A large displacement turbocharged engine with a slushbox makes just as much power and has just as much prestige without all of the hard work. BMW just would not be competitive with the XFR, RS5, or CTS-V in emerging markets like China (where Buick(!?) is a popular luxury car) and Russia unless they switched to the 4.4L V8.

hondacura4, the torque curve on the CTS-V is pretty flat. I don't have any dyno plots handy right now, but its got to be within 90% of peak from about 2000 to 5000 rpm.

Also, the Caddy doesn't have direct injection like the BMW engine, which is worth something on boosted engines. It also doesn't have variable cam timing to plump up the torque curve, and it only runs about 8-9 psi of boost peak.

That said, the CTS-V is pretty easy to get more power from. With intake, exhaust, 3-4 psi more boost and tuning we've seen 60-80 hp, and with high flow cats or test pipes, 100+ hp gains.

cmwrnoo740: I take what Clarkson says with the same seriousness as he uses testing cars. His bias at times is even funny.

You're wrong about the prestige though: anyone can get a really big engine, turbocharge it and have a powerful car. Having a lump in your car that could be in a Lamborghini, however, IS pretty inspiring. Having a 5 liter engine that revs to 8250 rpm, has 10 individual butterflies and is cast in the same foundry as a Formula 1 engine block, IS special.

It's true that the 4.4V8TT is not just any old boosted engine. To have something that powerful have such high efficiency, to patent the twin-twin scroll turbos nestled inside the V, to achieve lower turbolag than the regular 4.4 turbo V8, etc etc, is still special. It's just not as special as their current engine.

HAs anyone complaint about Lancer Evo X, Impreza STi, Porsche Turbo, GT2. No one ever complaint about their turbo. Why turbo lagging are being over come by computer setting another thing the first 2 car are high revving Japanesee speedster.

atenza - I think the complaint is about how M is moving away from what they've always done so well with the high-revving NA to the cheater-method of forced induction.

The Evo, STi, and Porsche Turbos have their identity in forced induction.

It is also worthwhile to remember the GT3, which seems to be the Porsche-philes car of choice is a high-revving NA.

Shawn AKA Church123, I wasn't suggesting the LS V8 in the CTS-V wasn't powerful enough already I was just making a comparison to the BMW from the information provided. I was merely pointing out the different paths taken to get these high numbers. However, I still think 551ftlbs of torque is a bit off for the CTS-V as it seems it should be closer to 600ftlbs.

I know the GM's pushrod V8 has tons of potential with just simple bolt-ons and a tune.

The interesting part is that BMW will be adding an additional 4/10ths of a liter to the V8TT which should easily out power the current 555hp M tuned V8TT.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=158069

The other issue with the CTS-V is the transmission. The auto cannot handle too much torque. Unless you disable all protection in the ECU, it gets really pissy with about 10-15% more torque than stock. IOW, GM made the engine meet the limitations of the transmission.