New Honda Chief Says Developing a RWD Platform Would Be "Meaningless"

So, that Acura RL is sure lighting up the sales charts, eh?

For Honda it's not a big deal. For Acura to be more than a tweener VW-like product it's imperative.

I think Takanobu is right. Honda has always marched to a different drummer.

Going RWD would be just another "me-too" effort, and that kind of thinking (doing what everyone one else is doing) is just not in Honda's DNA. I'd much rather see them go 100% AWD.

rsholland,

which would mean that Honda will be copying Subaru? I see a contradiction. =)

Well, it's either FWD, RWD or AWD. Those are the only choices. Of those I prefer AWD.

I would also add that Honda/Acura would likely couple that with hybrid (or something green) technology, like what's rumored for the next NSX.

http://www.7tune.com/new-honda-nsx-to-become-super-hybrid-sports/

So what I'm saying is that the complete drivetrain (the engine/motor and drive wheels) would fit the "march to a different drummer" description. The drive wheels would be just one component of the total system.

Putting 4 wheels on a car instead of just 3 is "emulating" what other companies are doing. Some things are worth copying. Marching to the beat of a different drummer is "meaningless" if the drummer isn't any good.

Yes, go AWD because what we need during this time of heightened gas concerns are heavier cars with more moving parts and lower gas mileage.

Different companies do different things in different ways while serving different customers. I don't think this is an indictment of rwd in any way. It's just not something Honda generally has or will do.

History has shown Honda to be right far more times than they have been wrong.

rsholland,

I doubt that a combination of AWD and a hybrid drivetrain is applicable for Honda's main lineup of family oriented cars, which is its bread and butter unlike things like the next NSX. Can you imagine the base price on an AWD hybrid Accord?

The biggest drawback to my '04 TL? Front-wheel drive. The rest of the car was great. I traded it for a Bimmer...

ctpax

I don't necessarily see it for the Honda brand (although Subaru is working on an AWD hybrid, so who knows), but I can see it for the Acura brand.

Here ya go...

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/20/new-honda-president-says-we-dont-need-v8s-rear-wheel-drive/

Quote from the link:
Honda's new president went on to say that, "We are considering incorporating new engines, motors, transmissions and chassis into mid- to large-sized hybrid vehicles," and confirmed that his predecessor's plan to create a V8 and a new rear-wheel drive architecture have been killed after Honda reassessed its priorities amidst the tanking economy. Instead, expect Honda's future premium offerings – primarily those from Acura – to adopt fuel-efficient inline-four and V6 engines, equipped with hybrid motors, and all-wheel drive.

If the insight is any gauge, Honda's getting a bit senile.

blueguy - I don't think that's quite fair. The idea is excellent: a hybrid for the masses. They just gambled a bit on the execution.

Now if you had said the Accord, I might've agreed...

Acura virtually abandoned the Acura enthusiasts as we have NOTHING to look forward to. I can see why many TOV members have moved to the Infiniti G and BMW 3 in pursuit of a powerful RWD premium sedan with exceptional chassis dynamics.

"History has shown Honda to be right far more times than they have been wrong."

Rsholland, correct. However we are talking about Acura, a brand that's never developed a vehicle that's truly unique or 100% exclusive to Acura. Honda makes great decisions for themselves but after 23 LONG years Honda has not figured out that they cant use 100% of their core philosophy as a foundation for a luxury nameplate as the goals and expectations are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

"Going RWD would be just another "me-too" effort, and that kind of thinking (doing what everyone one else is doing) is just not in Honda's DNA. I'd much rather see them go 100% AWD."

Rsholland, many of us don't see offering RWD platforms under the Acura badge a "me too" mentality as Acura needs to do something different. It would benefit Acura as it would make their sedans 100% exclusive to Acura and Honda could actually up its performance on cars like the Accord. Imagine a Accord (Si?) V6 6MT coupe/sedan that handled like a 2008 TL Type-S 6MT. That car would crush anything sporty in its segment.

The reason why I'm so pissed at Honda for limiting Acura is that I know the capability and engineering potential is there for Acura to really produce world class sport/luxury sedans/coupes yet Honda continues to keep them on a tight leash. Why even bother to compete if you cant give 110%?

Hondaacura4, obviously I disagree. I feel your frustration—I just don't think you're right in your analysis.

Nowhere is it carved in stone that you have follow the established leaders in the luxury market by using RWD. Honda's DNA is all about engineering innovation, and it always has been. They think outside the box. It wouldn't be a Honda if they did otherwise.

The Acura name is strictly for North American marketing. These are world cars to be sold in a variety of markets under the Honda label.

As to them them not giving a 110 percent? I think they are—just in a direction you don't approve of.

hondacura - from an engineering standpoint, I think you're right. But from a marketing standpoint, I think you're off. I think Honda realized early on that their upward potential was limited; they'd never Mercedes-Benz or BMW. THAT is the standpoint from which a RWD platform would be a me-too move.

I think he's off from an engineering standpoint as well. More and more automakers are recognizing AWD as being a "good thing" when it comes to performance cars.

There is a luxury brand that still uses FWD/AWD: Audi. Not sure why Acura/Honda do not focus more tightly on them. Considering Audi's alone with their "performance" AWD cars, this is a market Acura could tackle while remaining true to their desire to be just an upscale Honda.

Honda just wants to "creatively spin" the fact that they might not have the capability to effectively design something that could balance a competive package with stricter cafe standards and the views of the brand's loyal followers- in a cost effective way. So they say its a bad idea. Honda might not be wrong in this mindset, but Acura will NEVER truly compete with Mercedes. Even Hyundai has done a better job in developing a luxury product than Honda has. Maybe they understand that. Maybe Honda Co doesnt want Acura at that level.

"Nowhere is it carved in stone that you have follow the established leaders in the luxury market by using RWD."

RS, I know it isn't carved in stone but what layout did Honda use for its best driving performance cars? RWD. Acura wants to be known for producing world class sport/luxury sedans. Why not start with a better balanced performance foundation (FR chassis) and offer SH-awd as an option? Less weight, less complexity, better fuel economy and Acura exclusive products are all benefits, and that could possibly benefit Honda products as well.

"The Acura name is strictly for North American marketing."

RS, incorrect. Acura's are sold in China also. In case you haven't heard. Acura wants to become a global tier 1 luxury brand, therefor basing their cars off the Accord is a compromise in my eyes. Not that the Accord isn't capable in it's own segment but Honda's are designed with totally different missions in mind. MB or BMW don't have this level of "compromise" as they don't have parent companies to hold them back.

"this is a market Acura could tackle while remaining true to their desire to be just an upscale Honda."

Blue, upon Acura's initial debut, their goal was to offer sport/luxury cars with tremendous value while following the basic principles of Honda. That has changed as their aspirations have shifted dramatically. Acura has decided they want to become a global "tier 1" luxury brand and further separate themselves from the parent company, Honda. Being simply an "upscale Honda" is what got them in their current situation.

"I think Honda realized early on that their upward potential was limited; they'd never Mercedes-Benz or BMW."

Roar, the tier 1 luxury brands Acura wants to directly compete with are MB and BMW. Keep in mind both these companies DO NOT have parent companies and their products aren't as "compromised" by sharing parts and platforms with a mainstream brand. That to me plays a large roll in overall product development. Long before the name Acura was introduced, Honda realized that consumers wouldn't pay big money for a luxury Honda. That's why the Acura name was introduced and that's why the NSX was badged as an Acura in North America.

I see nothing wrong with current Acura applications if they wanted to directly compete with Lincoln, Saab, Volvo and even Hyundai (Genesis/Equus) of all brands. However, Acura seeks to aim higher and go for the major players in the market. Unfortunately for Acura, image, cache and exclusivity are a big part of that.

Its not just the lack of RWD platforms that keep Acura from being a highly regarded luxury brand. Its the fact that they also use the Honda principles and philosophies as their foundation of building luxury sedans. As good as Honda's "man maximum machine minimum" concept works for Honda that mentality wont work for a luxury marque as the luxury is about excess. Acura will have to develop its own set of principles and philosophies (while still using a few bits of Honda DNA here and there) to become truly successful at becoming a global tier 1 brand.

To further validate my point Ill use Cadillac and Infinti (even though neither are tier 1) as examples as they have started their brand transformation with the development of capable RWD platforms and by implementing a totally different mentality/culture years ago. Do you really think Cadillac and Infiniti would have received all the attention, all the accolades (from consumers, media and enthusiasts) if they would have stuck with their FWD offerings while using their former ways of developing product?

From Jeff Palmer, one of the mods of TOV:

As Acura is currently in the midst of fortifying their brand image in an effort to pull level with "Tier 1" marques, I can't imagine there possibly being a worse time for the president of Honda to make such a declaration. Just when it seems like things were looking up for Acura (with word of a proper flagship RL, unique FR platforms, and true "Tier 1" powertrains in the works), the news has been steadily getting worse for the past six months or so. The cumulative effect of this series of blows is taking its toll on Acura's brand credibility amongst enthusiasts, which arguably drive a brand's overall image. Will the effect ultimately prove fatal for Acura? Only time will tell.

Audi seems to do just fine with AWD, and they're a Tier 1 performance/luxury brand. Their top models are 100 percent AWD. Acura will do fine too.

"As good as Honda's "man maximum machine minimum" concept works for Honda that mentality wont work for a luxury marque as the luxury is about excess"

Well if AWD isn't about excess (in a good way), I don't know what is...

Bugatti Veyron, Porsche 911 turbo, Nissan GT-R, Bentley Continental, all performance AWD luxury cars. Acura can do the same—should they decide to.

"Should-they-decide-to" is the key phrase here.

I think one of Acura's problems in the past is that they decided not to offer a performance top of the line model, the most recent example being the current AWD RL. They decided instead—to focus on luxury—rather than Euro-style performance. That's not a fault of it being AWD. It's a fault of those in decision-making positions at Acura who chose to go "soft" rather than "hard" with the vehicle.

I prefer Left Wheel Drive (LWD) cars.
That will be original and no one will be able to say they're just another "me too"!
Think about it, the driver's side drives the car! Wouldn't that be great??????

Here's one more new AWD luxury car that will be debut at Pebble Beach next month: The all-new Grand Bentley—with a rumored top speed close to 200 mph.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/238942/bentley_arnarge_on_test.html

"Bugatti Veyron, Porsche 911 turbo, Nissan GT-R, Bentley Continental, all performance AWD luxury cars. Acura can do the same—should they decide to."

Rs, I don't have a have problem with the implementation of SH-awd as I think its a world class and well executed system , however all the cars you listed use RWD based platforms for their foundations which is another reason why they perform so well. The canceled SH-awd NSX replacement is RWD based also. Why is it all the cars you listed RWD based? You know the answer.

"Audi seems to do just fine with AWD, and they're a Tier 1 performance/luxury brand. Their top models are 100 percent AWD. Acura will do fine
too."

Rs, you keep glancing at the surface without looking at the details. 1st, Audi isn't (at least not yet) considered a tier 1 brand as they're trying to improve their image also. To add to that... Audi goes quite a bit further to differentiate their cars from the "lesser" VW cousins. Don't forget their engines are longitudinally positioned in FWD based chassis to provide better weight distribution. Acura currently HAS to use the transverse layout due to platform sharing with Honda. The old Acura Legend, Vigor and 3.5RL used the longitudinal design.

"Well if AWD isn't about excess (in a good way), I don't know what is."

Rs, AWD isn't a luxury in that sense as all Subaru's have AWD yet aren't luxury cars. I think you know what I meant when I compared Honda's slogan to excess and luxury. Oil and water.

Again, I don't have an issue with SH-awd as long as its implemented in a RWD chassis to fully take advantage of the systems capabilities. Just imagine a RWD chassis with 50/50 weight distribution and a torque vectoring AWD system. An awesome combination that BMW of all brands will soon have available.

Is it me or has Honda lost it with Acura? I mean where are the cars Honda had everyone sold on from the 1990s?!? The Integra, Vigor, and Legend? Those cars to me sort of represent the current sedans, The TSX, TL, and RL.... One would think so, but It seems the lines the original 3 cars had has been blurred quite a bit! The Integra came in Coupe and Sedan and was a fast tossable car. The Vigor was the Accord Twin but stood out with its cool 5cyl engine and more upscale interior. Th Legend was the car I think every Acura fan has dreamed about at least once. It was A coupe and sedan that was sporty yet comfortable!

One would think each car would evolve and keep the formula that made them all unique, but they have not. Sure, the TSX is somewhat sporty, but where is the coupe and turbocharged engine? The TL has remained true to the Vigors purpose. But the biggest disappointment IMHO lies within the Acura RL.

The integra grew old and became just the RSX. The RSX was a great car! But then they drop it because the cheaper Civic Si coupe became too good? Why not just make the RSX BETTER but keeping the same formula? A sporty coupe styled Hatchback with the most up to date features! Give it the 2.3L Turbo from the RDX and Limited slip as the Type-S. As cool as Sh-awd is, lets NOT see it here. Maybe just the old ATTS system Tops. Base car can use the 2.4 from the current Tsx.

On the opposite spectrum is the Sedan. The sedan version was spot on with the 04-08 TSX... but died quite a bit with the 09TSX... and further so with its new V6 option. I say lets nix the V6, put in the 2.3L Turbo option for Type-S. Just ATTS and the Turbo-4.

Next is the Vigor. The vigor became the 2.5TL then 3.2TL then just TL. This car from 1991 to 2010 has remained true to its cause... An Upscale Accord twin with a different engine option. The accord had a 4cyl, and the Vigor had a more powerful 5cyl. The Accord got a v6 option, the TL got a stronger V6. The accord finally looked decent in 2003, the TL looked SEXY for 2004. But wait, its sporty too AND has a comfortable ride. WHAT A CONCEPT! Isn't that what is was supposed to do from the start? No faults here from me.

After the legend, we (or at least I knew I was) expecting a sporty large sedan ala BMW 5 but in return, I got a boat with nondescript looks and a poor v6 engine. Then it replaces it with a much better looking car... but its smaller with a more powerful engine. It infringes on the TL some yes, but it stands out with its AWD. But its still too boring to look at to stand out. Can we please make it big again, but good looking and powerful please?

Another Acura vehicle that has vanished was the homely looking CL. Its a coupe, and coupes should not be ugly. That alone kills coupe sales. But not only was it ugly looking, it was boring to drive. What? This doesn't sound like what a coupe to me? More like a shortened sedan. Strangely, the TL based coupe never came back with the Good looks and sporty characteristics of the 04 TL. Big mistake here. But its not too late. A new CL with a 2.3T 6MT standard and optional Type-S with 306hp V6 and SH-AWD will be a Killer car... As long as it isn't ugly.

I'm not going to speak about the SUVs, because both are doing what they are supposed to do. But I will add this, Approving the ZDX BEFORE a CL similar to the one I mentioned above is a big mistake.

Hmm, one last thought. But has Hyundai become the Honda we all have dreamed of? The Genesis Sedan as the RL we never got? The Genesis Coupe as the CL we never got? I mean, Hyundai in one shot beat Honda to the two things Honda Loyalists have been pushing for... RWD and a V8 engine.

Is it me, or has Honda lost it? Or is Hyundai the Honda we all wanted?

From my opinion, Acura not going rear drive or V8 is just another example of an automaker being scared of CAFE and the 35.5 mpg standard. Now on top of this, BMW wants to add a four cylinder engine to their car (albeit the 1 series). Even further, Cadillac now wants to produce a FWD/AWD flagship sedan (and with what V8?), while discontinuing the best sedan in their lineup, the rear drive, V8 Pontiac G8. I don't know what makes the automakers think that every consumer is willing to pay $30,000-40,000 for a front wheel drive, V6 car, but I personally am not the type to overpay for a Honda Accord with a few more ponies and AWD. Before I do that, I'd much rather just get a Hyundai Genesis or Equus (right at you, autoboys), both having the formula that Acura should have had when they entered the U.S. market in the first place. SH-AWD is just a copout that enhances a FWD platform.

R.I.P, Pontiac G8.

If he's just talking about sedans, then I don't really care.
But if he sees no point in RWD vehicles period... then we've got a problem.

mrbacon, he must mean RWD period. Since the dawn of Existance, every Acura SUV has had AWD standard. Hmm, not sure if that statement also counts for the rebadged trooper, the Slx.

No other application Acura or Honda offers really needs RWD. A large SUV? I doubt we'll see anything larger than the Pilot. The Ridgeline? Also AWD. But a new Passport SUV done by Honda with RWD would make perfect sense... If this weren't the age of the new CAFE standards of 36mpg.

Just a thought, but, what happened to all the diesel hondas?

Autoboy16:
"No other application Acura or Honda offers really needs RWD."

The most edgy, fun-to-drive car I have driven was a S2000. You can get the ass out and rip through corners like a bat outta hell. Yes they still offer the car in 2009. Its RWD. Its a Honda. Can't have a fun FWD roadster convertible very easily.

What is wrong with Ito? How can he say that a RWD platform on a Honda is meaningless? At least he should think of a RWD platform on a Honda. I mean, they thought of using a Honda crossover and are going to make a production version in a year or two. Why not a RWD vehicle on a Honda?

hondacura4

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this. Acura has made their decision to go AWD. Since it appears that their new AWD will be integrated with a hybrid system of some sort, I'm not sure that the "traditional" FWD-biased or RWD-based terms will apply here. As long as it works as intended I don't think it matters. If Honda/Acura choose to give it sporty driving dynamics, it will. If they should decide to opt for pure luxury, they will. As I said earlier, it's up to the decision makers as to which audience they want to address.

We can debate this until the cows come home. Acura is going AWD. I agree with them. Time to move on...

Acura was at its best with the Integra, the RSX, and the first-gen TSX. Since then, they've virtually given up the ground they once held as a slightly upmarket "driver's car" brand. They've essentially handed that market over to VW and Mazda, while Acura goes off the technology deep end.

No one--NO ONE--will ever consider the current lineup (or anything Acura has in the pipeline) to be real sports sedans. The king is dead.

"History has shown Honda to be right far more times than they have been wrong."

really? You remember the Passport, Del Sol, first gen Odyssey, Element, RL, etc.? Honda has bet wrong many times in the past. Honda survives on the same vehicles that have been successful since the 70s- civic and Accord. In the last 10 years the Odyssey and Pilot have become solid players that sell well. Beyond that Honda and Acura have fielded many players that have not resonated with buyers. Acura has been going in the wrong direction for 3 years or so. Instead of going in a NEW direction Honda is saying they will do more of the same and somehow Acura will recover. If you want to prove that your vehicles are more than glorified Hondas you need new platforms and RWD. Back when Hondas didnt offer V6s and Acuras were much nicer inside it was easy to justify buying an Acura. Now a loaded V6 Accord is over $31k and is larger than the TSX while offering almost identical equipment. The V6 TSX basically is the same as the Accord except its smaller, has 9 more hp and costs $6k more. Not a recipe for success if you're Acura.

"You remember the Passport, Del Sol, first gen Odyssey, Element, RL, etc.?"

Yup, sure do. Compare those you listed with the 40+ years of other model successes, and you'll see far more victories than losses.

1487, I agree with most of your post but the size of the TSX is what ATTRACTS buyers. If someone wants a larger near-luxury FWD sedan then the TL awaits. I know 3 TSX owners and they seriously love that car.

FWIW, I still love the look and feel of the 2nd Gen Integra and first gen Legend. Great cars. Sad that nobody makes a 2 door coupe as attractive and functional as the original Legend now.

"Acura has made their decision to go AWD"

Rs, not all of their models will be AWD only. The TSX doesnt have an AWD option, the base TL and the base 2010 RDX are FWD. As of now only the RL and MDX come standard with SH-awd.

"I'm not sure that the "traditional" FWD-biased or RWD-based terms will apply here."

Rs, how can it not be applied? The platform currently used is from the Accord which is FWD. That said, the TL SH-awd and RL still use the same chassis with the implementation of AWD. Adding AWD doesnt change the basic foundation or origins of the platform.

I still believe a naturally balanced FR chassis is a better foundation for a SPORT/luxury sedan/coupe as the weight is MUCH MUCH better distributed and additional steering feel can be achieved. Combine the SH-awd system with the aforementioned naturually balanced FR chassis and thats recipe for a great handling car, ask Nissan.

Rs, a few questions...

- If RWD wasnt superior to FWD why did Honda use RWD on its high performance cars? (NSX/S2000)

- Do you think the CTS, G37 and 3 would be as good as they are if they were FWD?

- If you were the head of a luxury brand would you develop a sport/luxury car with a platform that comes from a $20-31K FWD mainstream FAMILY sedan while the sport/luxury sedans are priced between $32-53K?

- How can this not be considered heavy compromise?

In the end its not that developing RWD platforms doesnt make sense (as Ito stated) its the fact that Honda doesnt want to make the large investment that would be required as;

- Honda doesnt currently have the production capacity or resources for RWD platforms.

- The required investment (although good) would be monumental as these cars would have to be built on seperate lines or in their own facility which neither currently exist.

- The current economy doesnt support this large of an investment.

Acura must have magic up its sleeve if it really wants Acura to become a globally recognized tier 1 sport/luxury brand using their current ways of developing vehicles. Sadly, Ill have to find another brand to replace my 03 Acura CL-S 6MT.

Hondaacura4,
One more time... the quote from the link:

Honda's new president went on to say that, "We are considering incorporating new engines, motors, transmissions and chassis into mid- to large-sized hybrid vehicles," and confirmed that his predecessor's plan to create a V8 and a new rear-wheel drive architecture have been killed after Honda reassessed its priorities amidst the tanking economy. Instead, expect Honda's future premium offerings – primarily those from Acura – to adopt fuel-efficient inline-four and V6 engines, equipped with hybrid motors, and all-wheel drive."

To me that sounds like most, if not all, their future cars will be AWD.

Hondaacura4, LOL! I'm right there with ya. I'm about to replace my aged Accord. But not sure what to buy. I looked at honda... Civic, too ricy and not much action in the area where 98% of my driving will be, 1-4k rpm. Even 4k is stretching it. No other honda really got the juices flowing. Then naturally i looked at acura. But if buying new, I would avoid Acura. The looks number one is a huge turn off. The best looking vehicle they currently sale is the RDX, but i'd rather give my pennies to Mazda for a Cx-7.

That said, i, like some before has mentioned, am going to go with Vw. I don't need a huge car, I don't need a 100% sports car either. Oh, and better mpg is a must. What did I pick? Nothing yet, but its better have a 1.8T and a Stick.

Second choice would be any Mazda3 S with a stick. And thats it for me. No Honda/Acura vehicle appeals to me. The TSX and TL did, but that was killed in 09.

Acura, if you keep doing what you're doing, good for you. Just do me (and others) a favor and DROP the corporate grill....

"To me that sounds like most, if not all, their future cars will be AWD."

Rs, I just don't see Acura offering a full line of AWD cars. That just doesn't make sense from any standpoint as everyone doesn't want or need AWD. AWD lineup or not they will still be FWD based. My case is still valid.

"Instead, expect Honda's future premium offerings – primarily those from Acura – to adopt fuel-efficient inline-four and V6 engines, equipped with hybrid motors, and all-wheel drive."

Rs, that quote literally makes me sick to my stomach as it sounds eerily close to the Lexus portfolio. A V6 AWD luxury hybrid sounds awfully heavy and boring.

I'm all for green and environmentally responsible vehicles but it looks like the sport is slowly going away from the Acura brand.

Autoboy, how is a stock Civic "ricey"?

Possible cars you may be interested in;

- 07/08 CPO Acura TSX 6MT
- Civic EX/EX-L 5MT (great fuel economy)
- Civic Si sedan
- Mazda3 S 5MT
- Golf GTI 6MT (questionable reliability history)
- Jetta GLI 6MT (questionable reliability history)