Michael Moore: "The Only Way To Save GM Is To Kill GM"

I am no fan of Michael Moore and still am not, but I wonder what he is driven around in or if he even drives. He's a larger guy so I would guess a gas guzzling SUV to carry the weight, don't think a Prius can support him. He's a "film-maker" not an expert on economics or politics, guys like him need to shut their mouths for a while. I will say that he has a point about our rail system, it does need improvement. Otherwise we don't need his opinion.

Michael Moore is a moron with a superficial understanding of most issues. That's it.

Michael Moore is a moron with a superficial understanding of most issues. That's it.

As predictable as MM may be, your response is also similarly predictable and one-sided. I honestly thought you were better than that.

We're giving Moore media time again?

Ignore him and he'll lose all of his power.

"a dreamland that only exists in his head."

And a rather large, damaged melon it is....

I agree with Moore and cwajag in respect that the high speed train system sounds nice, and it would be good to have another alternative of travelingthat is(relatively) quick and cheap; tough the "The Japanese have'em so we should too" argument is about the weakest way he could have gone to make his point IMO.

The bit about the retooling the plants is stupid. First of all an alternative energy mature enough to mass produce that warrants such an investment and expectations (the sucsess of GM) is debatable at best; that money would be better spent in research to help mature upcoming technologies. Second, if it's so damned quick and easy to retool, why do all the other car companies (including...the Japanese!) take so damned long and put in so many millions of dolars in tooling a plant?

He's got some interesting points, I think you have to realize that he's fighting fire with fire so that when he's being one-sided and insane, it's because his opponents are being one-sided and insane in the other direction (as shown in the first few comments here).

Transportation infrastructure investment is a very nice idea, but it needs to be applied carefully because America is a different country than Japan or Western Europe.

Clarkma5,

It's interesting that you mention W. Europe as I was drafting my own thoughts about that region.

Something that is always missing from the argument to implement a rail-based transport system; W. Europe was bombed to hell during WWII so it was fairly easy to install inner-city (and inter-city) rail systems while rebuilding the rest of the cities. We would have to do major re-planning of our urban areas to have anything resembling either Europe or Japan. How would that get paid for?

Im a fan of light rails in cities, I agree we need bullet trains to subside the overcrowded airports but to just "kill GM" is not the answer.

to Ed Hellwig:
I read resentment from this column Ed, your resume of Michael Moore’s article is bias and cut to spread. You should know that bullet train exists in almost all counties from the G20 except USA and Canada, the two largest in size of them all. It wouldn't hurt too have a few here and if you're not going to build it, Canada sure will, Bombardier Transport is one of the world leader for providing these countries with bullet trains but like us, they can't even provide for themself.

Check it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_by_country#Europe

Reconstruction in Europe and Japan following WWII vs the suburbanization of an undamaged America largely accounts for transportation differences. They got to start from scratch, with our tax dollars no less. Yes American urban development following WWII was pretty short-sighted, but there is no quick, easy, and cheap solution as Mr. Moore suggests. I'd love to see more high speed rail, but I live in the real world and understand the limitations we're working with.

Since we no longer care about preserving the principles of freedom and liberaty which built this country and enabled it to prosper, if we keep going the way we're going, we'll get bombed to hell by our enemies anyway, once our national defense and national resolve is further eroded.

Then, it will be theoretically easy to build rail systems and mass transit underground as the cities are being rebuilt, presuming that our dollar is worth anything by then. If it's not, then there will be an abundance of cheap labor, so it can be done for peanuts, along with anything else that our General Secretary coerces us into doing.

I really wish people like Michael Moore would find a new home in the form of moving to another country. Move to one of the said "superior" countries to America and let us know how you like it. ;)

High speed trains are a great alternative to have. They are also expensive, and so is the right of way for the rails and stations. So how do we pay for that? Is that more valuable than universal health care?

Also, why do does all this stuff get built in Detroit with laid-off UAW peeps? Would we accept a 200 mph train with the tolerances and build quality of a Dodge Avenger?

Why don't we dismantle our nuclear armament and build the trains in the vacant missile silos with military personnel? That way, America would stop threatening an otherwise peaceful and idealic world. I just think Moore could try to fantasize outside the box, a little.

If there's a real demand for high speed rail, someone will satisfy it. Let the market decide!

Moore has made tons of money. Instead of telling others what they should do with theirs, he should buy a factory or two and develop the infrastructure he so desires.

Bullet trains? Built by union members? Now, that's funny.

Right now isnt the greatest time to mention building a light rail system...with the economy the way it is nobody can afford it because every working american would have to pay for it when most of us can barely keep gas in our cars...and hybrids are way too expensive compared to their gas only counter parts...moore needs to realize not everyone has the money he does we just have the brains he doesnt

Micheal Moore should stick to making his mockumentaries.

Michael Moore just needs to go away--NOW!!!

Oh the irony!!! w/o GM there'd likely not even be a Michael Moore at least not with the clout he has thanks to Roger and Me. Plus, he thinks GM should die? What about all the jobs that his beloved "people" would lose, the ones that didn't have jobs because GM... wait, now i'm confused - is employing people good or bad Mr Moore?

lots of hollywooder telling others what THEY ought to do - it's dangerous.

GM makes great cars outside of America. The Vauxhall brand is a great example. We got a modified version called the Pontiac G8. Why didn't they do such a thing earlier? Do they think Americans are ignorant and will buy anything with the 'Made in America' sticker even though the quality is sub-par?

It's the foundation of America that brought GM down. Capitalism.

I agree that the government should have let GM die out, but I also see that it's too much of a problem for the government to handle. Imagine all those workers without jobs. Towns and even major cities would disappear. Let's not forget, even the strong American pride would have doubt.

I applaud what the current administration has done given this issue. It's tough and not everyone is going to like it.

There's a couple things I would recommend to the government though.

One.
Send executives overseas to study what successful companies, such as Toyota and Honda, are doing. Remember, the Japanese have done the same when they were starting their companies.

Two.
I hate the fact that GM continues to call their Chevy Volt an electric car. I don't know what the official definition of an electric car is so if Insideline can clarify, that would be great. I assume, I know I'm making an a** out of you and me, that an electric car will only have one type of power source. One electric motor.

What is the gasoline motor doing in the Chevy Volt if it is an electric car? If a vehicle uses both gasoline and electric motor to power, it's a hybrid.

I understand that GM officially stated that the gasoline motor is not connected to the drive train (Is this two words? Correct me if I'm wrong). I guess this puts the Chevy Volt in the gray area of having two engines but only the electric engine powering the vehicle. Isn't the purpose of an electric car not to use gasoline at all?

Third.
Increase urbanization without increasing the problems.

I understand that this is a lofty goal. Almost dream-like in a way. A crowded city without uncontrollable crime and violence and trash. But look at Hong Kong and Tokyo. They seem to be doing well. And let's be honest, askmen.com (Sorry Edmunds.com editors, let me know if this is not allowed) said Hong Kong is one of the best cities to live in according to their top 25 cities to live in.

This, of course, means that we must improve public transportation system among numerous things which I cannot even think about. But it's possible. I think Discovery Channel with their Extreme Engineering had an episode of Mega-Skyscraper cities. It's do-able and a government funded, expensive project such as a mega skyscraper would be able to employ the unemployed and possibly improve the quality of life for us.

Fourth.

What ever happened to the joy of the drive?

To better explain this, let me tell you about myself.

I was born in Seoul, Korea. Moved to Danville, California when I was 6. Moved back to Seoul end of elementary school. Moved to Lake Oswego, Oregon end of my sophomore year in high school. And I am currently attending Purdue University.

Seoul is the worst place for cars. Trust me, buses and the subway is much faster and reliable. If you miss a bus, another one will come within the next 10 min at the latest. And subways are only spaced couple minutes apart.

Yes, it does get crowded during rush hour. So, there is that drawback of public transportation.

California was awesome for driving. Although I was in the passenger seat of my mom's Dodge Grand Caravan. Mind you, the best road trip car for the time.

Oregon was the place where I learned to drive. The hills and curves. A beauty.

Then I come out to Indiana. I'll admit, I had the picture perfect image of the Mid-West; where the good people live (Think hard working blue collar people who are kind and generous and nosy enough to be good neighbors).

But when I came to the heartland of America, it's all about diesel trucks and quarter mile times. I mean that's great, but anyone can make a vehicle go fast in a straight line and it takes no skill to do so.

Why not promote actual driving skills during driver's education so that people enjoy driving cars that can corner? We as American people must realize that cars represent who we are not who we want to be. In California we called those people posers. And if I remember correctly, that was a negative comment.

We can look at Finland for driver's education system reform. They put their students through a skid-pad and night driving before they can get their license.

If I was told that we'd be going on a skid-pad during driver's ed, I probably would have paid more attention.

To conclude, I have to agree with most people that Micheal Moore is an idiot. He is the type of people who can only see what they believe and will not open their mind to the reality of life and science.

We cannot produce hybrids and electric cars in an instant. The Toyota Prius and Honda Insight have been under constant research and development. Prius is now in its third generation in the US and I know Toyota R&D engineers are still trying to perfect their machine. Honda also doing the same.

The current factories are not designed to build hybrids or electric cars either. The over-haul of such magnitude would be expensive and not effective in my opinion.

Why? It's because I don't think hybrid vehicles are the answer.

I think our answer is hydrogen powered cars. Even Jay Leno thinks so (See James May drive the Honda Fuel Cell car in Top Gear, he talks with Jay Leno).

Electric vehicles are great if we can charge the battery in the same time frame as we fuel our cars. Now, that's an engineering challenge.

So, why not take this time when the economy is bad to change the face of America. Both literally by changes in public transport, how we live, and how we work to figuratively by showing the world that even in though times, Americans can support each other by working hard and diligently just like we did during the depression.

Although people say we are in a recession, we must act and think like we are in a depression. That is the only way we can stay in front of the competition and become leaders by example not by words and promises.

Hmmm - several things ...

First of all, to re-tool to build an electric car is a relatively minor. Technically, any car can be electric by simply removing the gas engine, and replacing with motor and battery pack. The challenge is building batteries in quantities suitable. That has been the biggest issue for the Volt design team obviously - and even going to a 3rd party is problematic because no one in the world currently has the capacity. But, with public spurred investment, 3-5 years, and you'd have more batteries than you would know what to do with. The electric motors are readily available, and much cheaper and easier to build than car engines. Things like re-tooling can in general happen FAR faster than they do in the US - but our businesses are generally risk adverse - even in a good economy. They don't like to innovate because they get scared, and as such, slow and steady, tried and true become operative buzz words, and instead, all the engineers like me spend most time working on small cost reductions to improve the bottomline by .00001%

What is an electric car ... whatever. Don't get hung up on semantics. Even the old EV1 "electric car" wasn't really electric if you want to nit pick the power source - the batteries were charged by electricity sure, but that electricity most likely came from coal - a fossil fuel. The gas engine in the Volt is in effect a battery - it just can be "recharged" rapidly by fueling up - allowing for range via refueling the equal of any gas only car, but also the short range benefits of a traditional electric. It's basically about the same thing as a diesel locomotive - just with a larger (by weight) battery pack. The primary benefit is the gas engine can be simpler (no need for 16 valves in a 4 cyl to maximize torque over a wide RPM range), and tuned to run at a single RPM where it's efficiency is optimum - driving an electric generator - which will also power the car.

Batteries ... in general, one of the biggest issues has been life - and at the end of it, what to do with those batteries. The stuff inside batteries is not pleasant, you don't want to just dump them in a landfill and end up with God knows what in the water supply. Someone has to figure that out too.

Rail ... I think the point was not to say "Japan has it, we should to" - but to say, the technology is old - very little development needs to happen in that sense. I don't know what the heck people are talking about though with "replanning cities" - gimme a break. Most of western Europe has high speed rail - and it's not owed solely to being bombed to hell in WWII as has been suggested. Many cities in Europe retain there pre-WWII layouts that don't lend themselves to efficient rail layouts. Paris, Munich, Frankfort, Amsterdam, London, Rome - to name a few. Much of Europe is covered by mountains too. The US already has about the most extensive rail system in the world. For many years, rail was how we got around. But post WWII, passenger rail traffic here all but died - primarily due to the Eisenhower Interstate system and air travel, which both took off/started in the 1950's. It was a simple matter of time. Since the trains could only do 60 mph or so and had to stop, the car on the interstate could get people where they were going quicker. For us to switch our system over to high speed is absolutely a challenge because little to none of our existing rail system can handle the high speed traffic. That infrastructure is outdated, and crumbling. But the rail cars and engines - not a big deal. Few know this apparently - GM made trains already. It was called called EMD - and they were the largest engine manufacturer in the world for many years - right into the 1980's. They recently spun off EMD as Electro Motive Diesel - but there's a US flag company, along with GE who make more train engines than anyone in the world by a HUGE margin - and yes, even for overseas. You don't just re-tool an automobile plant to make them - but it can be done right here, and basically now.

The market will not demand high speed rail however. People might like it, but no company is going to come up with the 50 or so billion needed for infrastructure, etc. To get there, the government would have to take the lead and provide the backbone. Think INTERNET. Without the government, there would be no INTERNET. No company would have attempted to create such a network with hundreds of thousands of miles of fiber optic cable, satellites, switching nodes, servers, etc. Imagine that business case ... "we want to spend 28 billion dollars attempting to connect every home in the US to a computer network. It will take 10 years, and the project will spin off a lucrative search engine with all revenue based on advertising" In 1980, no one would go for it. I don't think you'd get a taker today.

Midwest vehicle preferences ... In this area of the country, diesel trucks are relatively common - primarily for farming reasons. Straight line performance may be more emphasized here in the midwest, but that might be because most roads in the midwest are pretty ... straight. But it is a falsehood to suggest no one wants a good handling vehicle in the midwest, and only want to buy for quarter mile times. As a former and current Camaro owner, I can tell you first hand stories of "poor handling" are quite over-rated. I could make my Z28 corner with any Civic Si, it would just not look as pretty doing so. I also could crush the Si coming out of the turn. In the city - like say Chicago - you'll find vehicle perferences are similar to New York or LA, or San Fran. I see Prius hybrids all the time, there are 4 in my small subdivision alone. They probably still sell better in CA, but there are numerous reasons for that. Most notably, hybrids makes the most sense in the most congested areas. In the midwest, many roads are wide open, so the benefits of regen braking and other hybrid power recovery techniques are not nearly as strong. That's why if you pay attention, the Prius does worse on the highway than in the city.

All those comment. What happen to USA the country that can do everything? remember arm race in cold war? remember race to the moon? what happen to think outside the box? where is the creativity?
- I know the education standard is not as great as those other countries if they fail they don't have to stay behind. No national or uniform testing standard.
- I know the health care system literally cost you an arm and a leg. Just watch "sicko" and you will realized DAMNN!
- I know everyone in US want freedom this and freedom that but don't want to pay a penny.
- I know capitalism and greed has ruin this country just imagine kid don't go college still can get pay more than kid who went to college and all they have to do is work in car factory. This made the society dumber and dumber every generation.

Why call him crazy? why call him a moron? Why call him delusional? He still an American and he have the freedom of speech and want to share everyone what he think. He just want America to be better than other countries around the world who don't have the freedom of this and that.

I would love for my only option in an American car to be a hybrid-micro-car... would really motivate me to find an emissions exempt classic muscle car with the biggest gas guzzling engine I could fit into it, with no catalytics and watch all you suckers in your plastic death traps clammer to gtfo my way as Im sailing down the highway at a relaxed 85mph and 14 mgp.

Ohhh, Mr. Moore. Fly in ointment, sand in oyster, yes. But he does actually love America and is just lamenting the fact that it can never be quite as idealistically liberal and green and fast-moving as his student-like activist conscience would always like. Like him or not, the man does have many good points. It's his presentation style and details on execution that are almost always missing (which gets whiny and cry-wolfy after a while), but his points are all valid to greater or lesser degrees.

First, regardless of any "executionally unfeasible" retort we may have to his opinions (Ed's lead-in and several of the posts here are way too cynical, I agree.), noone can ever say that moving toward a healthier and more renewable (and a lot more interesting) future is a bad thing. We are all going that way and no resistance or anti argument is going to stop it.

Kill GM? Why not?? GM in and of itself is dead already. If it comes out of this huge mess and is still named General Motors and being run in essentially the same way, then we are all screwed. The name and all of the awful baggage attached to it must die to make way for a huge Chevrolet corporation (plus Corvette, yes) and a really solid Cadillac. Then we need possibly an all-new division with the Volt lineup as its first model. (I wish it were called Saturn, but that's just me maybe.) And that's it. For now. Keeping the GMC division alive is even a joke as it's clearly one final big show of their pure love for the badge engineering past. Kill it. Buick? Some great recent showings of product, but I dunno exactly. Ask the Chinese.

Then if the new Chevrolet is really smart, THEY'll be the ones that create a light-rail infrastructure and bullet trains for all. To be a transportation solutions mega-company is exactly what Chevrolet ought to think about, not just sheetmetal on four wheels from the same factories as before. The brand is hugely powerful still and I mean worldwide.

Everything needs to change drastically and it is doing so and there is no stopping it. GM is dead. Chrysler is dead. Only Ford survives and only just barely.

Kill the whole U.S.-led auto industry as we know it? It's done. Hell, the Brits did it before us and they're not dying in the streets under mostly German ownership using British labor. No matter, the U.S. auto industry we have always assumed was leading the world has actually not been leading the world one bit for the last few decades and now - IS DEAD. And thank goodness for that. Let's see what happens now to make the public love it all again as this industry goes through its forced rebirth.

ChromieD, the fastest way to get my to riot in the streets is; make me ride public transportation. I will not surrender my indipendance willingly.

As far as the GM debacle goes I always have been in love with Chevy cars and engines. However why after spending billions and billions of our money is now the time to let them die? Before the first bailout I thought "it pains me but let them file chapter 11". Now after wastefully throwing all this money at a black hole, the chant for LET THEM DIE?. Sounds awefully irresponsible at this point.

dblaker, where in any of what I wrote does it say we are forcing anyone to ride or drive anything??

The world is going these ways inexorably and it is, on the whole, tremendously good even though painful right now. But there is no forcing consumers to do anything that is at all surprising or offensive or liberty-sucking.

Regarding our dying status quo: so, because we poured all the billions in there and they are still dying anyway, we should keep them around even though they are the source of the problem ultimately in GM business-case terms, and we have known this day was coming for about twenty years? The resistance to these changes is always noble and practically never rational. Besides, we knew all of these existing entities were bound to die and be reborn in other forms when we approved the billions. It has always been part of the deal. These things always cost a mass of dough, but cost less when we do what is right, no matter how painful at the time. Keeping dying things on life support always costs more then just knocking them off - and I'm confining myself here to BUSINESS life, not human life, so don't start. Although...

"Nothing new here really. Michael Moore never misses an opportunity to pontificate..." And yet he continues to grab headlines. Maybe if people would stop reporting on what he's saying he would just go away. You guys could start the trend! Stop the madness!! Stop reporting/reading/posting about Michael Moore!!!

Note to right wingers: You can like cars and use public transportation. I know its a hard concept to grasp. Catching public trans isn't about "surrendering freedom" or any other such nonsense. I chose to catch public transportation to save money and stress. No one forces me to do so. If you live in the sticks I understand its not an option, but in densely populated areas it makes sense. And having good public transportation does not mean folks will lose their freedom to drive if they so chose. Get a grip.

die GM for all the mistakes you did...This is Capitalism not European socialism.

Would GM die/file chap11/be restructured on its own? Yes. The company did it to itself.

Bailout a company that made poor decisions for 60 years? No.

[this is an anti-competition conspiracy from GM in the 40s]
http://www.trainweb.org/mts/ctc/ctc06.html

For anyone who has lived in Japan. The people there do not rely mainly on bullet trains but city-to-city rail. I lived there for years and it is a very simple, but extensive system.

Considering Japan is WAY smaller than the U.S. it would be $$$$$$$ to build a similar setup. I can see the sense in connecting large cities with bullet trains and allow inner city travel with city networks.

Since GM killed rail systems in SanFran and Seattle (I think Seattle was part of it) in the post WWII era I think it is time for the death of the current GM and allow the competitive market to continue.

I-6:

GM isnt dying. Get over it.

It is amazing that people still give that fat moron any credibility. He is a nobody who knows nothing about everything. Get your head out of the sand people!

What the hell is in his weed?

people don't just come up with stuff that retarded, but then again, moore isn't human

i actually hope he dies, a little over the top, but he is just so stupid that i can't fathom something else

Uhhhh, guys? GM is very, very super dead. Can it get any more dead than dead? And whatever comes of all this mad scramble, if they keep calling whatever it is General Motors after it no longer is General Motors, they may as well install permanent safety nets around the base of the RenCen to catch the shower of hopeless execs flinging themselves through windows.

Moore aside, his type exists because slow-to-realize-the-obvious conservative never-changers like some of you here exist. Wishing Moore dead, too, sschicago, is pretty flaming ignorant. You're sort of Dick (good name for him) Cheney to his Barack Obama, or something. You just keep talking and his ratings go up, up, up.

Isn't it funny how Michael Moore wants all union workers to build railways, etc- but at the same time has most of his own movie scenes filmed in Canada so he doesn't have to pay union wages.

This fat f*ck is a hypocrite, a liar, and an America hater.

Another idiot with a video camera. Kinda like some of the guys in the Captain Video clips. Where did Captain Video go, anyway?

Bullet trains would be sweet. F'ing expensive, but f'ing sweet. And tickets would cost more than airline tickets, just like they do in every country that has them.

I think we need better rail transportation for cargo before people. Less trucks on the road = more room for us. As a bonus, our highways would all see less wear and tear.

@accordguy0325

He shot film in canada because
1. He is not rich like Speilberg he is crazy but he is not stupid and yes he must be an American (greddy) because if he shoot in America he WILL NOT make any PROFIT.
2. If any of the movie crew sick hey free healthcare
3. If he hate America he will just say "SUCKAAA I told you so" and didnt come out with his crazy idea of Union workers build anything else just stay home and collect unemployment checks"
4. GM is not dead? so when it GM dead? They already have to many brand that cannibalize each other and other competitors still 2-3 steps INFRONT of them in anything.

1487

GM is definitely dead.

What planet are you on right now?