IL Track Tested: 2009 Honda Civic Si Sedan

I would have this car if there were no used G8 GTs!

The current Si Sedan has always been an under-stated and under-appreciated offering amongst its extroverted competition.

I know it sounds like sacrilege in a performance-oriented sport sedan like the Si, but had it had heated seats, I probably would have bought one over my 4-Door GTI. It was actually a bit of an odd omission, given that the less expensive Civic EX-L has them standard.

I've always been a big fan of the Civic Si, and I'm glad Chris made mention of the engine noise. It's probably one of the best 4-cylinder howls on the market right now.

A good motor that sounds better than most (if not all) other 4-bangers on the road, but the lack of torque just does nothing for me.

I'm sure the Si sells just fine as I see tons of them on the road, but let's face it....if Honda put a turbo 4 in the Si they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lot.

I agree with the above. I'm a torque guy and could'nt live with this engine daily.

The SI still looks pretty good IMO and these cars really do have sweet 6 speeds.

Would be nice if there was no GTI or Cobalt SS. Unfortunately for Honda those cars do exist making this car relatively pointless.

The engine in this car is really a gem. I regret getting rid of my Si at times because it was an absolute blast to drive.

I don't think the lack of torque was as bad as the number looks on paper, due to the gearing. And this is coming from someone who replaced an Si with something that makes (literally) twice as much torque.

Well, of course it's overshadowed by the Mitsubishi and Subaru sedans...they're AWD, more powerful, and more expensive...a Lancer Ralliart starts at $27K and base WRX starts at $25K. Kinda how a TSX compares to a 3-series...

The Civic SI engine is a fine crafted piece of machinery. Sure, it doesn't have the turbos or the AWD to compete with the rest.

Si is good but MazdaSpeed 3 is better for similar ammount of money and a lot better interior design and quality.

Also the VW GTI has a lot more torque and is better for everyday driving but can be very expensive.

Overall I would get the MazdaSpeed. The older one, not the 2010 Smiley model...

The 2009 Mazdaspeed3 base model costs about $1500 more but you get:
a) 100!!! HP more for similar fuel economy (1mpg less)
b) 20ft less braking distance from 60mph to 0
c) 5.7sec from 0 to 60mph
d) 18inch wheels
e) better wind/road noise insulation
f) projector lights
and the list goes on...
I like the SI but frankly the MazdaSpeed3 is a better deal and a better car...

The horrible 2 level instrument panel equals no buy for me. I could not stand to look at it on a daily basis.

Great car for the 25 and under crowd. Fun car but a bit too much "economy" for us older folks that can afford something a bit more substantial. Turbo charge it but that may defeat the purpose.

Re. comments...how can you compare this car to a used G8? Not even in the same universe.

And I agree, not choosing a performance car because it does not have heated seats, or large enough cup holders for that matter, is in fact sacrilege.

Correction: Honda Civic Si was offered for the first time as a sedan in 2007, not 2006 as stated above.

The only reason a G8 GT might be in the same price category is because Pontiac is paying the ultimate price for building such low-quality products.

I actually love the two tier display. I'd have a hard time switching back to the traditional layout I think...I really like the Si dash set up that much.

This engine/transmission combo is a lot of fun. I don't think this car is "pointless" in the market place. The MS3 is the leader, and the GTI is more upscale. But if you want natural aspiration and an excellent chasis, you could do a lot worse.

A CAI on this engine makes it sound even more astounding.

I have a 07 that I use as a daily driver. The car isn't as fast as a Speed3 or a Cobalt SS, but it still is a lot of fun to drive. I have driven both the SS and the 3. Both are nice driving cars, but the SS feels cheap and badly built, and the 3 is not as "sharp." The SI is solid and has the usual feel of Honda quality. It doesn't (can't) torque steer like the 3 which is a small plus to me. I hate the stupid wing (mine is a coupe) which doesn't add anything but drag to the car, but that is really my only gripe.

Comparing the car to a G8 is just stupid. The G8 is a large RWD car with an equally large V8 (as it should be). The SI derived from a compact FWD car. They don't even have similar prices when new.

Personally I'm not as much of a fan of revving an engine to the stratosphere to make power. I like meaty torque down low and so I prefer the GTI. That is just personal preference though, and the SI is still a very nice car. My brother-in-law has one (or had one? He might have sold it recently...) and I enjoyed rides in it.

I strongly dislike the Civic. I would much rather spend my money on the MazdaSpeed3.

Things I don't like about Civic's:

1) Dashboard is intimidatingly long.
2) They are every other car you see on the road.
3) They are not that attractive
4) It doesn't have enough mods to clearly distinguish it from a regular Civic.

That just my opinion, Sorry if I offend you...

Like el_cris, I have one as a daily driver. An 08. I've driven the MS3 and a riding buddy of mine bought one, so I've had seat time in it. It was a close (really close) 2nd in my purchase decision. Love the versatility of the hatch and the styling of the 3 overall. No argument that you get a lot for your money as for content.
However, the motor is always "ON", and the drive train just doesn't have the same engaging character as the Honda does. For me, the versatility of the Honda motor is a plus. If you want to putt around and get decent mileage you can. Put the whip to it and it's a whole different animal.

I own and have had several cars with heated seats (live in the mid-atlantic) and don't miss 'em one bit in the Si. Like the grippy cloth. You can add aftermarket seat heaters if you really need them.

Yes, the Cobalt SS makes tons of power and handles very well considering it's rear underpinnings. But the driver is on the inside and the Cobalt interior doesn't really say "spend time with me" and I have to question how long it's going to last over the longer term..

As for the earlier post about the MS3 being the best out there. It's all relative - maybe for that poster it is. But if there were truly one best car in any given category that suited the masses, there would be a lot fewer cars being made today.

As for the Vdub. I do like the styling and read nothing but good things about their 2.0 turbo motors. But I just don't trust them from a quality/reliability standpoint. I know their owners are rabid fans, and that's great. Just not something I'd roll my own $$$ on.

"I'm sure the Si sells just fine as I see tons of them on the road, but let's face it....if Honda put a turbo 4 in the Si they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lot."

"I agree with the above. I'm a torque guy and couldn't live with this engine daily."

Honda deliberately tuned this engine mildly so the high cam (additional valve lift) could be physically felt and heard. A classic case of marketing on Honda's part. This isn't the first time Honda has done this.

In terms of torque production, this engine is peppy although not a stump puller like its turbo competition. Honda could have easily tweaked the ECU and higher flowing intake/exhaust to give it better low/midrange torque while adding more horsepower in the top end. Id say Honda could have easily attained 225hp and 150-160flbs of torque. Those power levels could have probably been produced with little to no compromise in reliability, fuel efficiency or emissions. Shawn (Church123) could go into more detail as he's tuned many Si's.

"Would be nice if there was no GTI or Cobalt SS. Unfortunately for Honda those cars do exist making this car relatively pointless."

We all know you don't care for Honda's 1487, and by that statement, I take it you've never driven an Si. Although the Si cant match the other (TURBOCHARGED) cars in sheer power or acceleration it does have more than a few characteristics that are unique or near the top of its class. Please try to look past paper specs as there is a lot of goodness within the Si as even though its down on power its still a desirable and well executed car.

The cars Id purchase in this class:

- MazdaSpeed3 (value/features/performance)
- Civic Si 4dr (playful,refined nature/revvvvvvvs)
- VW GTi 6MT (upscale German feel and look)

I'm in the same situation as Hondacura4. I have an 08 as my daily driver. I also looked at the the MS3 before buying my SI.

MS3 Pros:
-Power and torque: It's fun
-Styling: Subjective
-Price: You get a lot and I would spend extra for the Grand Touring package
-Interior: Good layout and quality of materials. In defense of the Civic, if you own one for a while, you will feel claustrophobic in other cars later. And I don't mind the dash on the Civic - it looks remarkably similar to my S2000. The down side is that the sunshades are as big as the solar reflectors on the International Space Station.

MS3 Cons:
-Stick: It felt similar to the Mini's - not bad, but not close to my S2000. The Si is not as good - but is noticeably better.
-Clutch: I will temper this comment with the fact that it could have been this particular car. I have a pretty light touch on the clutch and I made the clutch stink. The clutch was really soft but in it's defense, the Si is pretty soft as well.
-Dealer: Again, YMMV. The two dealers near me were over 20 miles away. The salesguy I talked to in Hayward fled when he found out my friend who came with me was a OPD Sargeant. Good times... OTOH, I have a great relationship with an independent Honda service place and the local dealers are really, really good. I do understand my situation is unique.

Some extra thoughts on the SI:
The 139 lb-ft of torque seems minuscule but really it is livable. Engine technology has changed in the years that Honda developed the F20 series engines in the S2000 and the K20 series in the SI. Honda gives you a larger percentage of the torque at lower engine rpms so I can carry the SI into turns in 3rd that I would drop into 2nd in my S2000. Not bad when you consider the K series engines are not hand-built and polished like the F20s.

Overall, the Si is a really good car that could use a little more power, but that's what the other car is for. I would have been willing to pay extra if Honda brought the Type R to the US.

This is one of the best discussion on the merits of competing cars that I've seen in a long time. Very mature, very informed, very little fanboyishness.

stovt001 -- I know right? Its weird how sometimes everyone behaves and puts on their big boy pants, and then other times they sling poo like a bunch of rabid chimps.

Does anyone find it amusing that this discussion is basically MS3, GTI and Si...no mention of the Sentra SER Spec V. Poor Nissan. They did so well with the new Z and the GTR, but the Sentra is the ugly sister that no boys want to date.

My parents own an '07 Civic Si coupe (his), and an '08 Civic EX-L coupe (hers). I've spent considerable amount of time behind the wheel of the Si, which is a fantastic car. It feels very solid, and the combination of that beautiful sounding I4 and the brilliant 6-speed transmission makes for very entertaining commutes. It's geared quite tall, so intentionally skipping gears during regular driving is commonplace. This is fine in practice, and better than having more conservative gearing, because you definitely need six closely spaced gears to keep this engine on boil when driving aggressively.

I think the Civics (both coupe and sedan) are among the very best looking for their segment. I mean, consider their competition:

- Toyota Corolla
- Hyundai Elantra
- Chevrolet Cobalt
- Nissan Sentra
- Ford Focus
- etc...

The only real competition the Si has, in my opinion, is the VW Golf/Rabbit and Mazda 3. Everything else is punishment on wheels.

Does the Genesis coupe 2.0t compete in this segment or not? Its priced pretty close to the others, but its rear wheel drive...opinions?

A little more than a year ago I was shopping a car and the two finalists where the MS3 and the Si. In the end I chose the MS3 and have never looked back since. It's a great car, it's perfect for me and is a blast to drive, but like others have said, I can see the Si being a better fit for others.

My family owns a Honda (a 99 Civic EX) and I have nothing but good things to say about that car (well, lack of torque does irk me when I've driven it and want to make a lazy pass in the highway) but it's been bulletproof and will proabably still be with my folks for next 10 years at least.

$23,000, with nearly 200 horsepower and a 0-60 of 7 seconds? That sucks. I can't wait to see the Kia Koup go up against the Civic Si.

Two years ago I was in the market for a new car and was set on getting a Civic Si sedan because my fiance hated hatches and it was the most sporty/practical car I could get at about $25K. However, after separate trips to several Honda dealers and being treated like crap (e.g. one gave me a hard time about wanting to test drive the car before saying we were definitely going to buy it [my father and I got the impression he didn't think we had the money because we are minorities in a primarily non-minority area] and another dealer tried to pull a bait and switch on me saying they had a white one with navi like I wanted while the whole time pitching me on a silver one without navi when they never had a white one in stock).

Ultimately, I got my fiance to look at the Speed3 and I've never looked back. I love my car because it's ridiculously practical and very sporty. It even reacts well to light mods pushing performance even further with not that much additional having to be spent. I'm very happy with my purchase because I can use my car for everything from grocery shopping at Costco to going around cones at an autocross.

I also narrowed my shortlist of car choices to the MS3 and Si Sedan, utlimately selecting the Si Sedan. It was close, and I actually prefered the wagon packaging of the MS3, the lack of a sunroof and better stock handling/braking of the MS3, but ultimately my concern over the powertrain reliability (recall the broken motor mounts) and general dislike the for the narrow powerband (nothing over 5K rpms) kept me from pulling the trigger.

Overall I'm happy with the Si it's been great with excellent fuel economy (I'm averaging 30mph in a mixed loop), wonderful engine intake and exhaust notes, playful chassis, nice shifter, and aftermarket support which is really starting to take off.

The short comings, most of which mentioned in the article, in large part can be addressed with off-the-shelf parts from current tuners. Brakes are typically upgraded with better pads and stopping distances and pedal feel improve dramatically. Power is rectified by opening up the exhaust with a high quality header (i.e. SSR, Hytech, et al), exhaust & cat, affordable engine management (i.e. Hondata FlashPro, Cobb AccessPort) and other power adders (cams, intakes, forced induction) as the owner desires.

So it's not the king of the compacts in terms of performance like hte MS3 or Cobalt SS and lacks the refinement maybe of hte GTI, but the low cost of ownership and great reliability make it a very compelling choice.

Now if Honda only came to their senses and offer teh Civic Type R, I'd instantly put my deposit down and have a companion for the lonely Integra Type R also in my garage.

I think on a whole I prefer the GTI, but to own I think the Civic would be much cheaper over the long run. VW maintenance is an absolute killer, not to mention that it's the only sport compact (to my knowledge) that is not recommend by CR.

I the MS3, for me, is a pretty overrated car. Yes, its fast, but the torque steer is pretty awful and the as a result, the steering ends up being fairly numb. The interior is nothing to write home about, and when the exhaust isn't sounding like a vaccuum

The above comments just go to show you how much dealership relations can make to a purchase. The practical side of me knows that it shouldn't matter - get the best price and get out. If you don't like the dealer, you don't need to ever go back.

But in my particular circumstance, having the salesman disappear because he didn't want to be near my cop friend didn't inspire confidence. And then when the "Closer" came and after asking what other cars I was looking at, told me that I didn't seem serious in buying a car and i should go to the next dealership to kick some tires. So I did... And bought my Si... Which is what I told his manager when they called the following Monday on a callback. I even thanked them for their advice:)

Here's the thing - I don't give out my work and cell numbers if I'm just looking to score a ride in a new car.

"Now if Honda only came to their senses and offer the Civic Type R, I'd instantly put my deposit down and have a companion for the lonely Integra Type R also in my garage."

TypeR801, Honda should have imported the JDM Type R sedan instead of giving us that ridiculously expensive (poser) Mugen Si. Everything Ive read and viewed on the CTR has been very positive, ride quality excluded. However, the CTR is probably too raw for most people shopping in this segment. The CTR is obviously a car for the enthusiast who prefers that high level of purity and tactility not found in some hard core sports car. Great car!

As for your Integra R, keep it in a SECURE garage as its candy for thieves.

"However, the motor is always "ON", and the drive train just doesn't have the same engaging character as the Honda does. For me, the versatility of the Honda motor is a plus. If you want to putt around and get decent mileage you can. Put the whip to it and it's a whole different animal."

This is the exact reason why I prefer Honda/BMW small displacement/high revving engines as they can be quite and docile in everyday commuting yet scream like banshees when the throttle is cracked. The mechanical/intake sounds and the tach needles energetic rush to red line stirs my senses. Ive never experienced that with a large displacement torque monster or a forced induction engine.

I probably have a little more history than the average person on this subject.

I had a 2000 Civic Si. It's a different car but a lot of the same traits. I actually prefer the 2000 body. I liked the car a lot even though it wasn't very fast. It sounded (AEM CAI) and handled great and when I went to sell it after owning it a year I sold it for the exact same price I paid for it brand new. Now that never happens.

I had a 2006 VW GTI w/dsg. I also loved this car. I was hesitant at first about the DSG transmission but it was great. The interior of the GTI is by far the best in the class. Power was decent with the turbo. I didn't do very well with the trade in on the GTI.

A month ago I bought a 2009 Mazdaspeed 3 sport. The MS3 is on a whole different level than the other 2 cars. The torque of this motor is amazing and the power is always there. It's almost completely opposite of the SI. By 6K rpm the MS3 is out of steam where the SI was just getting started. The MS3 is so fast that you barely have any time between shifts. The MS3 is always on the edge. The interior is pretty decent for this price range. About the same as the SI but not as good as the GTI. I added a short ram intake and it sounds amazing but my MPG is hurting because I want to hear it all the time. The only thing I'm worried about is reliability. The SI and GTI are more reliable cars but I was willing to take that risk for the daily excitement. I paid $20,500 for it brand new. I hear the torque steer being brought up all the time and I think it is blown overboard. It's like saying that I hate my motorcycle because it pops wheelies in 1-3 if I slam the throttle.

I've also owned a 350z and the MS3 is closer to performance with the Z than it is with the other 2. ALthough the Z was a real sports car.

The Civic SI engine is a gem but getting to the power isn't as easy as say, a SPEED3. I love both cars but for a daily driver I choose the Mazda because of the low end torque, room for four and more usable cargo space and its engine sounds just as sweet. I also think the quality of the interior is better than the SI's.

"I actually prefered the wagon packaging of the MS3, the lack of a sunroof and better stock handling/braking of the MS3, but ultimately my concern over the powertrain reliability (recall the broken motor mounts) and general dislike the for the narrow powerband (nothing over 5K rpms) kept me from pulling the trigger."

Couldn't the same thing about a narrow powerband be said about the SI? In the Civic's case, it has nothing under 5k RPMs.

"Couldn't the same thing about a narrow powerband be said about the SI? In the Civic's case, it has nothing under 5k RPMs."

YOu could say it, but if you looked at the dyno of an Si, I think you'd recant that statement. Torque is roughly flat from 2K to 8K rpm from ~118ft/lbs to 134 ft/lbs varying mostly at the VTEC crossover point of 5700 rpms

Here's a dyno from an unbiased source to validate

http://images.automobilemag.com/features/0610_c+2007_honda_civic_si+dyno_chart.jpg

Compare that to a MS3 which has really only has a window from 3K-5K or so of similar levels of torque, before and after it drops dramatically.

http://images.automobilemag.com/features/0610_c+2007_mazdaspeed_3+dyno_chart.jpg

I remember watching a video of a Mugen Civic Si sedan and I loved the sound of the engine. Actually, I thought it was one of the best engine sounds I've ever heard. I wished my MS3 engine sounded like that.

With regard to reliability and build quality of the MS3, there are definitely cheap parts in it but I don't think it's really all that different from my old Benz. The only time I noticed how cheap some of the pieces were is when I started to take apart the console when I added some mods. Other than that, when just riding around and touching the seats I really like the MS3 interior. I actually LOVE the touring leather seats...they are really comfy yet still hold you in place.

I definitely think the reliability will be better in a Honda based strictly on reputation and on some recent JD Power reports, but that doesn't mean that the MS3's reliability will be bad. It's like comparing an A to a B+. With regard to some bad engine mounts, that problem was with only the very early batch of the 07's in the initial release. "Too much power" for the mounts...oh well too bad. I don't mind having "too much power." Having a good gas pedal sense will alleviate the torque steer issue in most cases.

Now the issues I really don't like and most MS3 owners I think would agree on are the shifter and tranny. Gearing is way too short and the shifter is clunky. I love the Civic Si's shifter.

"You could say it, but if you looked at the dyno of an Si, I think you'd recant that statement. Torque is roughly flat from 2K to 8K rpm from ~118ft/lbs to 134 ft/lbs varying mostly at the VTEC crossover point of 5700 rpms"

I don't want to get into a pissing match here but I will say this in defense of the MS3. The maximum power band isn't the widest, but it's not particularly hard to keep the engine in that sweet spot due to it revving up quickly and easily. If you don't mistake it for a high revving engine you'll be able to wring out a lot of usable power on a day to day basis.

I definitely don't think the car needs more power driving around town, but if the band needs widening for you...a cold air intake and a Cobb tune will easily do the trick while also adding more than 30+ hp and 40+ torque to the wheels for about $600-$700.

I'm a person who loves to rev up the motor and if an engine has real torque then you are always at risk of having police problems. Honda motors are amazing. I'm not a fan of the front end styling or the split instrumentation (digital speedo) on current Civic.

I would agree with Banhugh ...

The Mazdaspeed 3 is much better. In value and in driving pleasure - not to mention 280 lb-ft of torque!!!

M Michael
http://easyclicks.wordpress.com/

the civic si isn't a bad car. the K20 has monster potential for modding. the 6 speed manual is awesome, as usual for Honda. the LSD allows you to put down that power. and it feels great doing it. problem is the MS3 and Cobalt SS are so much faster. the GTI is much nicer and does it all, yet just as capable when roads get curvy.

I went with the GTI because I was more in the market for a daily driver and its the softest of the bunch, but it does not disappoint on the track. Its 100% reliable and maintenance is free, so your negative views of the car arent valid.

Anyways, its hard to go wrong with either choice. Just celebrate the fact we get such potent cars from the factory for such a bargain... having had a Integra and raced it, this is heaven. The performance of these cars is something I never dreamed of back then. Just a shame getting the power to the ground is still difficult, lol.

Have had my Si for 2 years now. Replaced a Mini Cooper S, too costly in repairs after warranty expired. Si has been bullet proof. Only complaint is black interior heats up fast in sun. I also routinely get 30MPG. Best is when driven on back roads. Recent trip into WVa was amazing. Si was a jewel of precision on winding, hilly roads. so much fun reving to redline, passing SUVs and morons in pickups. Back in town Si is just another Civic, relaxed and obedient. I like it's dual personality. Calm commuter on minute, wicked beasty when released from its cage. It acually feels more stable than the Mini at speed and is so much more useful. Actually went to buy a new Mini when I chanced upon the Si. Si was $7,000 cheaper at the time. No regrets.

Who wouldn't love a torquey shove in the back? Trouble is, those engines are never installed in light, tossable cars..

The problem for me is the torque and the front wheel drive. Had to get a subaru WRX instead.

The problem with the WRX is relentless understeer, which you don't get with these great FWD cars. If I knew how capable the GTI was when I had my 03 WRX, I probably would've traded it in long ago. Although, I definitely enjoyed having traction with 400whp on tap. We are at the apex of FWD's now... the Ford Focus RS would be the flag on top.

I think manufacturers should now focus their efforts on the RWD segment. Cobalt SS RWD equivalent is the Solstice GXP... imagine a RWD version using the K20 or the MS3's powerplant. K20 swaps are popular and very effective for the Lotus Elise/ Exige and Toyota MRS. Plop the MS3 engine in a modified RX8 chassis. (they claim the compact rotary is what allows it to seat four, so make this one a 2 seater) I know there is a rumored VW RWD coming with the torquey TSI or a TDI and that'll be nice to see.

The SI are good cars and priced well. However, having had a 5th gen Civic and a current 8th gen. You can definately tell the build quality has gone down. I found hair and things on the body/paint. The 8th gen doesn't feel as sturdy in many areas.

Also, had I known how the service at Honda of America and the dealerships had gone down. I would have gladly paid the extra money to get treated better. This is my second Honda and probably my last.

I had a 2007 SI sedan for about a year and I trade it for a GTI.The things I liked about the car were the dashboard, it was roomy inside,good fuel economy and the sound of the engine when pushed hard. Now what I didn't like was the lack of torque in this car. Yes, on this article they claim the car can sprint from 0-60 in 7.0sec which I agree, but in order to achieve this you have to launch the car hard and change gears almost hitting the RPM limiter. Under normal driving conditions it is a different story. I was the last pulling from a stop light all the time, corollas, the base civic, just about any other economy car will pull ahead of me with ease. I found this to be very frustrating and was the main reason I got rid of the car so soon. Besides this I had shifter problems, sounds coming from behind the dash, thin paint, and an overall cheap feeling about the finish of the car. In my opininion, there is no reason for the existance of this car. The competition has better offerings at similar pricing. Now if you want to buy a civic just get the base one, you'll save money and you will have a better daily driver with more torque in the lower RPMs.

"Would be nice if there was no GTI or Cobalt SS. Unfortunately for Honda those cars do exist making this car relatively pointless."

Interesting statement... would be nice if you'd actually sit and drive each of the cars before making a relatively pointless point....

I bought a 2007 Si sedan 2 years ago. At that point there was a big price difference between the 3 main contenders (GTi, Si, MS3) which had an influence on me. I also have a 2003 Altima SE automatic, which is blessed with tons of torque but no fun over 7/10, so in many ways the Si was a reaction to the Altima. I miss the torque, as everyone says. The Si is brilliant at low speed and when you wind it out. Brisk or medium driving is not so accomplished. I found the GTi interesting but the reliability questions, lousy dealer, and that ugly plaid interior held me back. I would like the orange Autobahn version with leather and DSG, but that is way more money, at which point I start to think of Acuras and used 3-series. I find the styling, the handling, the 8000 rpm shriek, and the solidity of the Si to be top notch. If Mazda had a cheaper version of the MS3 with about 240 hp and no torque steer, that would be great, though the new "Smiley" look is dreadful. Bottom line is that all of these are great cars and I love that we have some real choices.

i had a 00 Si at the time while my friend had a cobalt ss, brand new. well not even 2 years later his engine needed a complete overhaul. it's not suprising to see that he doesn't own that car anymore! the si is still alive and kicking, if that's what you wanted to know. not bad for a 19 year old car.

Do you guys think theres a noticeable difference in terms of acceleration/handling between the si coupe and the si sedan?

About a tenth of a second 0-60, perhaps a couple for the quarter. Handling? I couldn't comment on the coupe, but the truth is that you probably won't notice either aspect between the two. Some claim the sedan handles better, however.

"not bad for a 19 year old car"

I think you meant a 9 y/o car, its 2009.

"well not even 2 years later his engine needed a complete overhaul."

That's one significant area of concern when it comes to forced induction as given this segments demographic, these cars take a beating. Of course the reliability factor would also be based on proper maintenance among other things. In that regard, Honda's normally aspirated 4's have a solid and proven reputation when it comes to reliability and durability.

"Do you guys think there's a noticeable difference in terms of acceleration/handling between the si coupe and the si sedan?"

The Si sedan may be a 10nth or so slower (like cz75 mentioned), however handling is virtually a wash although the majority of the numbers I've seen are in the sedans favor.

I REALLY wish Honda would have made a 99/00 Civic Si sedan as I really liked the 99 Si coupe and I wouldn't have had to do a drivetrain swap (guts from a 1994 Integra GS-R) in my 1995 Civic EX sedan although I do enjoy that extra low/midrange power of the B18C vs the B16A.

One would think 2/10ths of a liter wouldn't make much difference in torque production but the 1.8 had much more noticeable low/midrange torque vs the 1.6. In addition to the greater low/midrange torque, you received that strong surge of thrust when the secondaries opened up around 6200RPM and that surge continued to its 8200 fuel cut. Gotta love the Honda B18C1 and B18C5.

The Si is a great car. The interior beats all others except the GTI. I would never consider the Cobalt SS, look GM is dead and it's unlikely that the Cruze or Cobalt will ever be available in the SS. R.I.P. you piece of garbage SS.

I've been the owner of a Mazdaspeed 3 for over two years, and I have to say that I became thoroughly bored with it in less than a year- and I'm not the type of driver who trades cars on a whim- I've kept my other everyday cars for 14, 7, and 4 years. That said, if I was buying a FWD sport compact today it would either be a GTI or Si. As for the MS3, it now stays in the garage to keep the miles off while I wait for something more entertaining to come along- most likely a 993 or E46 M3...

"I would never consider the Cobalt SS, look GM is dead and it's unlikely that the Cruze or Cobalt will ever be available in the SS. R.I.P. you piece of garbage SS."

Bwoodahl, given the Ecotec drivetrains will be (probably) shared with the Cruze I see no reason why there wouldn't be an SS version. I'm not and have never been a big fan of the Cobalt but the Cobalt SS (turbo) offered serious performance for the dollar and could whip an MS3 and many RWD sports cars on the track. If GM could up the quality/refinement it would be a solid choice.

roadburner what is it u hate about the MS3? Is it the torque steer, crappy shifter, 3200 lbs, traction problems, the engine running out of breath near redline? I would imagine the GTI would be somewhat similar with the same weight, torquiness, tractor-like power peaks, etc.

The torque steer I can deal with; it's really not that bad. As for the shifter, I really don't have any complaints. It's not as slick as the Si but I wouldn't call it crappy. The weight is a concern, the car is much to heavy. And yes, traction is a problem. The thing will even wheel hop with the TCS on. The power delivery is what really bothers me. Not only is it not linear or progressive, but it seems to vary on a day-by-day basis. It just drives me nuts. The funny thing is, it's fine driven at 7/10ths or less- but drive it hard on the street or on the track and it's a real handful. I bought the car to serve as my daily driver and as my track rat, and I would much prefer to have a car with great track prowess rather than one that excels as a commuter. Maybe I'd feel the same way if I had bought a GTI, who knows. What I do know is that the MS3 will be my first and last FWD car.

here's the thing about the MS3, i like it alot, but id take the civic SI over it for one huge reason; the engine drives me nuts. The gearbox is fine but the clutch has too sudden a switch point, the engine has nothing below 3000 rpm and above 5700ish rpm, and the noise is nothing special. Sure the honda might not have much down low, but it is at least smoother and has a much longer powerband than the MS3. But for me in the end it'd have to be a 3 way battle in this segment between the Cobalt SS Turbocharged, VW GTI, and the Honda Civic SI Sedan. I would consider a WRX, but it just costs far too much money to be worth it.