Baldwin Refines His Argument: UAW Not To Blame For Detroit's Failure

He still needs to shut up. When is he going to realize Ford didnt take any money AND they are American and they make the most efficient midsize sedan?

The way union rules work, management can't prevent it. The union can shut the company down and extort whatever absurd salary they want.

If the money was spent on design and not $60/hour assemblers, they would all still have their jobs.

Now you have thousands and thousands of them finding out the market value for their skills is about $10 to $12/hour.

Interesting thoughts

-Restating his position as not "letting them die" but "stopping government subsidies" is a good start. However, I wonder if Ch. 11 would work without government funding. That's a debate in itself. If the U.S. wants a really free market policy, we should stop the loans to the Detroit 3, but ALSO stop the subsidies (that won't be paid back) to the transplant automakers in America (looking at you, Sen Shelby), insist that Japan also play by free market rules and stop subsidizing its auto industry, and stop blocking foreign brands from accessing the market there. It works both ways.

-I can also see his line of thinking with the workers. Individual workers don't go to work in the morning with the intention of bleeding the company die. It is also in their best interest to get the best compensation and conditions they can, just as it is in the company's best interest to look for the best deal for itself, and a compromise process to reach a logical middle ground. The failure came when the workers elected leadership that didn't look long term and GM management who waited too long to stop unsustainable contracts.

-Still, in the end this seems like little more than trying to save face among the liberal elite by praising the working class. I hardly find it sincere. Still, it is a step above his last statement. Baby steps.

first, they can try to extort it. The sad thing is that companies cave to unions rather than exposing something most employees don't want to accept: no worker is irreplaceable.

1487, yeah the Fusion is a great car. Lots of cars in Ford's upcoming line up look great. I hope they prosper - they're hustling to make it happen and it's impressive to see any American automaker attempt to survive based on product.

"He still needs to shut up. When is he going to realize Ford didnt take any money AND they are American and they make the most efficient midsize sedan?"

I find it ironic that you say Ford is American and mention the Mexican-made Fusion in the same sentence.

isn't mexico part of america?

I read in the newspaper an interview with a UAW duct worker who pulled over $120K last year, but now only expects to make half that. That's quite a bit of money! Granted, he probably worked a fair share of overtime to pull down six-figures. I'm glad skilled blue-collar work can make that kind of money, but there is no way that is competitive. I machinist or plumber working his own business, taking a lot of risk, would have to hustle to pay himself that much. Can anyone imagine a lot of hustle goin' on at the auto plant? I wonder...

UAW line workers are making two to three times what the people who teach your kids or keep your streets safe make for a living.

The CAW (Canadian branch of the UAW) just agreed to a $16/ hr pay cut. This is on top of an earlier $7.00/ hour cut.

After all that they will STILL be making $57.00/ hour!

I've worked in high tech manufactoring for a long time. Our best highly skilled assembliers earn $18 to $22/ hour.

A lot of our competitors pay $10 to $12/ hour.

If you advertised the UAW jobs at 1/2 what they make now, the line up would stretch for miles. On top of that, the learning curve to teach now employees would likely be less then a day.

I think they should all be dismissed and then allowed to reapply for the jobs at a more market rate.

They would be competing with a lot of people that would willing to work much harder for that amount of money.

"1487, yeah the Fusion is a great car. Lots of cars in Ford's upcoming line up look great. I hope they prosper - they're hustling to make it happen and it's impressive to see any American automaker attempt to survive based on product."

yeah because GM isnt trying to survive on product. Thats why they have the Malibu, CTS, Enclave, 2010 Equinox, Corvette, etc. When all those cars debuted GM was thinking "these cars can be crap because in a few years we plan to ask for government loans". Prior to this year the automotive press was in agreement that GM had the strongest lineup amongst the Detroit 3. Ford is playing catch up. Besides, my point was Baldwin is an idiot if he refuses to acknowledge that Ford is part of Detroit and is turning out some nice, fuel efficient product. That's the problem with folks obsessed with extreme positions (as you likely know)- they wont consider any facts that get in the way of their biased positions.

Use some common sense.

"After all that they will STILL be making $57.00/ hour!"

Flat out lie. If you dont know the facts don't pretend otherwise. You must be touting overall labor costs per car- including retirees. They do not make anywhere NEAR $57/hour. I can't believe people are still repeating that nonsense. The internet can help you research stuff like that and get accurate information. Try it.

"I find it ironic that you say Ford is American and mention the Mexican-made Fusion in the same sentence."

Oh- you thought Ford was Mexican because the Fusion is assembled there? Wrong. Ford is an American company that assembled cars all over the world. Toyota isn't American because it makes trucks in Texas. Aren't you one of the people constantly fawning over imported cars? The Fusion is imported so it must be good.

Firstwagon:

I hate to let facts interrupt your anti UAW party but in the US the top UAW pay rate is about the same as what Toyota pays its workers in Kentucky. The oft repeated $70/hr figures were totally wrong and should never have been used in mainstream media reports. They were including benefits and retiree costs and acting like that was an hourly salary.

"UAW line workers are making two to three times what the people who teach your kids or keep your streets safe make for a living.|"

In what world? Here teacher pay ranges from about $40k to $70k a year. In the suburbs teachers can make $80k or more. Police officers start in the low $40k range and can make well over $60k with overtime. Starting in 2010 UAW workers will be hired at $14/hr. Get your facts straight.

"Flat out lie. If you dont know the facts don't pretend otherwise"

Just telling what I heard word for word on the nightly news.

They didn't break it down into costs but I do know they were making over $30/hour back in the late 80's when I was with the CAW so the numbers seem plausible.

I 've tried researching it but it's hard to find anyone who will list pay rates.

You might want to do some research yourself before you accuse someone of lying.

"Oh- you thought Ford was Mexican because the Fusion is assembled there? Wrong. Ford is an American company that assembled cars all over the world."

Sorry, but if I buy an American car I want it to, you know, be built in America. Use some logic.

"Toyota isn't American because it makes trucks in Texas."

When did I mention Toyota being American? Learn to read.

"Aren't you one of the people constantly fawning over imported cars? The Fusion is imported so it must be good."

lol. Did I hurt your feelings?

@1487: did you miss the fact that firstwagon was speaking in CANADIAN dollars?

Commercial for Detroit and the Big Three

YouTube video "I Drive What I Build"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPCKaA2Wr0o

or see link on WCSX website

"Just telling what I heard word for word on the nightly news.

They didn't break it down into costs but I do know they were making over $30/hour back in the late 80's when I was with the CAW so the numbers seem plausible."

Don't use the nightly news for factual information about the auto industry. The rates they were quoting included all costs. The actual salaries have been stated many times in the States. Top pay is about $28/hour. Its not that the information isn't out there- its that some people don't want to find the truth. Unlee Canadian dollars are worth half as much as the US dollar $57/hr is not correct.

"Sorry, but if I buy an American car I want it to, you know, be built in America. Use some logic."

Final assembly is only one part of the process. An "American" car built in Canada likely has more US content than a "Japanese" car built in the US. Assembly is the final part of a long process. Most major components come pre- assembled from suppliers and generally speaking American branded cars have higher levels of US content. For example, a large percentage of Toyota's powertrains for its North American vehicles are imported. Most engines/transmissions for domestic branded vehicles come from the US. IN addition, you are totally ignoring the design and engineering component of car design. I can guarantee you that the design for the fusion didn't happen in Japan. Can you say the same for the Altima or US built Accord or Camry? No. There are many people involved in the design, testing and engineering of a car and when you buy a Fusion you are essentially helping repay all the Americans who spent thousands of hours developing that car. Asian cars are largely designed in Asia and assembled here. The Asian automakers have small R&D operations here but vehicle development is primarily done overseas.

Just for the record, firstwagon was speaking about the CAW. Reading comprehension ftl.

PS, slightly off topic but since we're talking about Ford: I saw a new Fiesta on the road yesterday near the Oakville, Ontario Ford Assembly Plant. It looked great, though slightly taller then I was expecting for some reason. Yes, it was in that strange green color. Yes, it was eye catching.

"Just for the record, firstwagon was speaking about the CAW. Reading comprehension ftl."

For the record, they dont make $57/hr in canada. I know what CAW stands for. Total costs per hour would be lower in Canada due to the fact that GM has little if any healthare cost obligations in that country.

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/04/18/gm-caw.html?ref=rss

http://www.thestar.com/article/638741

Just a few references to keep everyone up to date on CAW happenings. Some interesting cost numbers in there.

"GM has little if any healthare cost obligations in that country"

This statement is incorrect. I'm not going to go into an explanation of Canadian healthcare systems - check wikipedia, I'm sure they have something on it. However, the notion that a Canadian employer has no responsibilities for health care, drug plans, etc is incorrect.

Just to further my above comment:

Totally free healthcare is a common stereotype, but its incorrect (see Simpsons go to Canada, etc). In Ontario, there is indeed a general healthcare system that covers many items that would not be covered in the USA. However, many major items including 'some' surgeries, dental plans, eye-care plans, prescription plans, etc, are usually the responsibilities of the employer. So yes, GM/Chrysler/Ford do have costs in this regard. However, they are likely lower then in the US because there is are certain level of items/expenses that are covered through personal taxes.

Point is healthcare costs are lower for GM in canada. Correct? No healthcare is "free" but in Canada employers likely face less costs than they do here because the government has a smaller role here and more of the costs are shifter to companies and consumers in terms of out of pocket expenditures like high premiums and copays.