IL Track Tested: 2009 BMW M3 Sedan vs. 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP

$25k will buy you better handling and craftmanship. it will also buy you the "BMW" nameplate and the M3's legendary reputation. IMO most people buy a BMW because it's a BMW. The G8 is a superb car tho.

well when the guy in the BMW steps on it on the highway and the G8 stays right next to him since the LS have monster top end it's going to be a shocker. Let's also not forget the G8 can seat 3 easily in the backseat, that thing is cavernous.

Way to go GM and kill a car the mags compare to storied cars (M3 , EVO) in addition to the typical Chargers,etc.

I'll make one more prediciton, the G8 will hold value better than the M3 since by all reports they have only made a few thousand of those GXPs for all time. It's like if you could go back in time and buy a GNX today;which is what they should make it if they had any sense and wanted something to sell when all the septuagenarians assume room temperature.

It's not like GM doesn't know how to make great handling cars...the problem is that it has this misdirected belief it doesn't need or have to cause every American Joe and Mary doesn't know or care... Well, keep thinking like that and the whole company will end up like Oldsmobile...

If GM was to allocate some young guns from the Corvette team and another $1000 in R&D upgrading and fine-tuning handling and braking, and there is no reason it couldn't come up with world class cars. The hardware is 90% there...spend that little extra time and money better calibrating them and you would close that performance gap.

As our nation's chief and Nike would say..."Yes you can" general..."just do it".

The G8 is the obvious choice if you look at the savings.. i would rather use some of that saved amount to buy the Walkinshaw performance upgrades (high boost blower, shocks, thicker anti-roll bars and brakes) and make the G8 comparable to the M5 !!

Furthermore, at this level- performance is the only benchmark, the brand name does not matter. what matters is what your car can do.

you could buy a used G8 GXP, STS twin turbo it, spend mad money in suspension.

but it still wouldn't look as good as a charger SRT8 murdered out with police search lights, and a police scheme.

Maybe GM will make the Pontiac G8 the new Chevy Impala? The GXP an SS? Impressive acceleration and it looks pretty darn attractive.

Are you sure this Pontiac had a stick? I'm not sure what to make of these comments about "brake-torquing" and "sport drive" mode.

I'm wondering the same thing, alexdi.

I am genuinely impressed. Normally, whenever I see any BMW versus anything in a comparison, I roll my eyes, skip all the mentionings of the BMW, knowing it will win, and get the information on the other cars instead. The BMW M3 beats everything on the planet. If you ground one up into powder you could probably cure swine flu, it's slated to win gold in the Olympics, will run for president in 2012, and is humanity's only defense against an alien invasion. To see a "lowly" Pontiac throw up similar numbers to the supernatural M3 is absolutely amazing. This car will be a collectable and be held as a GM muscle car legends along with Chevelles, GTO's, Impala SS, Camaros and Firebirds

Well honestly I would still want the M3 but the G8 just cost so little and still has the same performance. Plus that extra 25k can be used for a superior suspension system that could make it out handle the M3. The GXP could out hustle the M3 with a wider set of rear rubber(275 just like the Camaro).

@alexdi: You're right, numbers are for a GXP with the automatic. We tested both versions. Numbers and comments for the manual are in the linked story, sorry for the confusion.

Ed Hellwig

SOMETHING REALLY NEEDS TO BE SAID HERE ABOUT THIS COMPARO...

Lets say you wanted to spend $5,000 on performance goodies for each of these machines. The BMW is on the edge of its engine output and will not yield much more power.

On the other hand, the LS3 under the hood of the GXP is easily capable of an additional 100 REAR WHEEL horsepower. From what I have read about the GXP & GT for that matter, these cars are capable of sub-12 second quarter miles (i am talking 1 cam, headers, exhaust, ECU tune) and this GXP would molest any BMW currently offered.

I know this test is a comparison of factory-to-factory specs, but most anyone contemplating the GXP is well aware of the LS3 potential, especially the relative ease of extracting that power.

If I had to choose between the two, I can honestly say I would choose the GXP because of the massive aftermarket support for the LS3, the styling, and the rarity of the vehicle.

Now, when the next gen M3 comes along with a boosted motor and all the potential modification options that brings, I may consider it.

For now, I see this test as a test between one car (the BMW) pushing at 9/10's of output whereas the GXP is around 6 or 7/10ths of output.

The specs for the G8s tires are wrong. the car has 19" wheels and tires.

The difference in the slalom speeds can be attributed to mass and wheelbase. The G8 has a much longer wheelbase that compromises agility. This is one reason why a M5 or 7 series isnt going to match a 3/M3 in the slalom. The GXPs numbers beat the 750s across the board- except maybe slalom.

Also, just based on that pic above the G8 looks better.

"WOW, look at the slalom speed difference! 70 mph vs 63 mph. That's what those $25K buy. Well, that and the badge."

I hope you are being sarcastic.

I'll take the M3, thank you very much.

I sat in the GXP. Not impressive. Mechanicals may be good but you see and feel where the money was saved. It was also way too big for my taste. The BMW is too big, too, but not as much as the G8.

One thing I don't understand about this test: how can you test manual vs. automatic? Obviously the auto will be far inferior. This test is invalid, especially since G8 GXP IS available with a proper manual gearbox!

I'd take the G8. Its a performance bargain and even if an M3 did blow by me in a curve, I'd be happy to go home to my extra cash.

After having experienced GM quality and service with a new Corvette I would take the M3.

Ill take a 335i with the m sport package and crank up the hp easily over 400 with a few relatively inexpensive mods. Still not cheap, but very stealth. The G8 is sweet, but I dont need a larger vehichle like that. I like the compact dimensions of a 3 series.

"One thing I don't understand about this test: how can you test manual vs. automatic? Obviously the auto will be far inferior. This test is invalid, especially since G8 GXP IS available with a proper manual gearbox!"

On small block powered cars there is little difference between the Manual and auto. On the CTS-V the auto is faster.

"After having experienced GM quality and service with a new Corvette I would take the M3."

Chevy isnt a luxury brand so its service experience is unlikely to rival that of a BMW dealer. Hasn't slowed sales of Vette yet though.

The M3 they tested is loaded up with all manner of junk. The same car can be purchased for 55k. So really it's a 13-14k difference.

Gotta agree with Audisport. A 335i with ZSP is easily possible at 40k. Add the dinan chip and you've got a full warranty and enough power to run with the G8 until you hit the corners. Then the BMW will run away. The M3 sounds sweet but really it's not worth the extra dough unless you're gonna track it constantly.

I got the GXP becuase of what potential still lies untapped. The auto makes it a balanced comfortable sedan..with tons of power. I have been a die hard M3 fan but the numbers were too much for me. I looked at the sedan but the space issue for a family made it a no-go. A guy I know just picked up a certified 08 M3 6m coupe that stickered for $63K with 9K miles for right at $40k just last month! Taking that kind of hit on a 11 month old car is out of my financial sense! The GXP is the right choice for the money, you can still make it something incredible! Take a look at the Holden HSV. Now the General just made it into a collectors piece!

"So really it's a 13-14k difference. "

Still too much. When you account for finance charges and taxes its a lot more than $14k. Few people buy cars with cash.

"Then the BMW will run away."

It should, its a compact car weighing about 400lbs less than the GXP. The Pontiac is closer in size to the 750.

Another fundamentally stupid comparison. Why? The G8 GXP competes with the BMW M5, not M3! So does the CTS V that everyone thinks compares to a M3. Look at the dimensions. The G8 is within inches of the M5 in all measurements and weighs the same. Oh, and the G8 is $40K+ less (half!!!!!) than an M5.

Mark

Both cars look fantastic, although I prefer the BMW white to the Pontiac silver color. Silver does not seem to flatter most modern cars. The Pontiac has even more tuning potential, while the M3 is probably about perfect just the way it is.

One thing to keep in mind is that the G8 is classified as a full size car, the M3 is midsized at best. If you got a family and need one car to handle everything, the G8 is the way to go. If you're single, the G8 is the way to go.

1) The G8 is close to M5 in size. You cannot dismiss the 339lb advantage the smaller M3 carries.
M3
As tested Curb Weight (lb): 4,049

G8
As tested Curb Weight (lb): 3,710

2) Look at the advantage that the M3 has with wheels/tires size/performance that the G8 can EASILY overcome is the G8 wore the SAME tires with a set of CCW 505a's and PS2's or better.

M3
Tire Size (front): 245/40ZR18
Tire Size (rear): 265/40ZR18
Tire Brand: Michelin
Tire Model: Pilot Sport PS2

G8
Tire Size (front): 245/40ZR19
Tire Size (rear): 245/40ZR19
Tire Brand: Bridgestone
Tire Model: RE050 A

3)The G8 is EASILY and CHEAPLY modified in the aftermarket and the electronics are aftermarket friendly. I believe a tune only would close the M3's performance gap. Exhaust and cold air induction would give the G8 the win. Finally, with the addition of a supercharger ($6,000) the G8 will put between 500-600 to the wheels. Those mods will easily make the G8 a M5 KILLER.

4) The G8 can be purchased for much less than the quoted price so the money for modifications are definitely there.

So when an unbiased car enthusiast evaluates these number they can only come to one conclusion:

THE G8 OUTPERFORMS THE BMW M3 AND HAS WON THIS COMPARISON.

PS:
The 2010 Camaro SS is the G8 Coupe (Zeta platform), so this great car will live past 2010.

BUT, GM NEEDS TO SAVE THE G8 AND REBADGE IT AS A CHEVROLET AS GM CURRENTLY DOES IN OTHER MARKETS.

ANY HELP FROM EDMUNDS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN WILL BE MUCH APPRECIATED MY MANY.

1) The G8 is close to M5 in size. You cannot dismiss the 339lb advantage the smaller M3 carries.
M3
As tested Curb Weight (lb): 3,710

G8

As tested Curb Weight (lb): 4,049

2) Look at the advantage that the M3 has with it's wheels/tires and their size/performance.
The G8 can EASILY overcome this if it wore a set of CCW 505a's and PS2's or better.

M3
Tire Size (front): 245/40ZR18
Tire Size (rear): 265/40ZR18
Tire Brand: Michelin
Tire Model: Pilot Sport PS2

G8
Tire Size (front): 245/40ZR19
Tire Size (rear): 245/40ZR19
Tire Brand: Bridgestone
Tire Model: RE050 A

3) The G8 is EASILY and CHEAPLY modified in the aftermarket and the electronics are tuner friendly. I believe a tune only would close the M3's performance gap. Exhaust and cold air induction would give the G8 the win. Finally, with the addition of a supercharger ($6,000) the G8 will put between 500-600 to the wheels with daily driver RELIABILITY. Those mods will easily make the G8 a M5 KILLER.

4) The G8 can be purchased for much less than the quoted price so the money for modifications is definitely there.

So, when an unbiased car enthusiast evaluates these numbers they can only come to one conclusion.......

THE G8 OUTPERFORMS THE BMW M3 AND HAS WON THIS COMPARISON.

PS:
The 2010 Camaro SS is the G8 Coupe (Zeta platform), so this great car will live past 2010.

BUT, GM NEEDS TO SAVE THE G8 AND REBADGE IT AS A CHEVROLET AS GM CURRENTLY DOES IN OTHER MARKETS.

ANY HELP FROM EDMUNDS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN WILL BE MUCH APPRECIATED MY MANY.

1) The G8 is close to M5 in size. You cannot dismiss the 339lb advantage the smaller M3 carries.
M3
As tested Curb Weight (lb): 3,710

G8

As tested Curb Weight (lb): 4,049

2) Look at the advantage that the M3 has with it's wheels/tires and their size/performance.
The G8 can EASILY overcome this if it wore a set of CCW 505a's and PS2's or better.

M3
Tire Size (front): 245/40ZR18
Tire Size (rear): 265/40ZR18
Tire Brand: Michelin
Tire Model: Pilot Sport PS2

G8
Tire Size (front): 245/40ZR19
Tire Size (rear): 245/40ZR19
Tire Brand: Bridgestone
Tire Model: RE050 A

3) The G8 is EASILY and CHEAPLY modified in the aftermarket and the electronics are tuner friendly. I believe a tune only would close the M3's performance gap. Exhaust and cold air induction would give the G8 the win. Finally, with the addition of a supercharger ($6,000) the G8 will put between 500-600 to the wheels with daily driver RELIABILITY. Those mods will easily make the G8 a M5 KILLER.

4) The G8 can be purchased for much less than the quoted price so the money for modifications is definitely there.

So, when an unbiased car enthusiast evaluates these numbers they can only come to one conclusion.......

THE G8 OUTPERFORMS THE BMW M3 AND HAS WON THIS COMPARISON.

PS:
The 2010 Camaro SS is the G8 Coupe (Zeta platform), so this great car will live past 2010.

BUT, GM NEEDS TO SAVE THE G8 AND REBADGE IT AS A CHEVROLET AS GM CURRENTLY DOES IN OTHER MARKETS.

ANY HELP FROM EDMUNDS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN WILL BE MUCH APPRECIATED BY MANY.

I hate to break it to you, but numbers always lie.

"E46fanatic"
At least you are honest with your name....
and live up to it.

If BMW can build a car that outperforms a lowly Chevy, I'll go buy it.

the compared these two cars because it's fun, and because they can. they don't need any other reason.

the reality is, these cars will never be cross-shopped except by a few money-savvy BMW fans. someone considering the GXP won't consider the M3, simply because it's easier to get something under your budget than over it.

still, the fact that a non-caddy GM car is mentioned in the same breath as the legendary M3 is a compliment. people who buy the G8 are getting a great performance bargain and an all-around good car.

Suspekt, your comments focus on the (typically) American 0-60 straight line performance. The M is no slouch in that department (since it's faster than the stock GXP) but that is not what it was built for.

If all you want is to win at the stop light grand prix, then pile in 4 friends and go to dinner, the G8 is your car. Spend a few grand on a blower package and the G leaves the M for dead stop light to stop light and your wallet is still $5k-$10k thicker.

But if your goal is to be the fastest through the winding canyon roads, then the M is your car. You will never get the G8 to handle as well as the M3. That's not to say that the G handles poorly, but this type of driving is what the M was created for and BMW has far more experience building a car that turns great than all the GM divisions combined.

Personally, I'm the first guy. I would rather have the oomph off the line, solid handling, and room for 4 full size adults and their luggage. I live in the Midwest, my opportunities to go canyon carving are few and far between. But I get plenty of chances to drop the hammer off the line so I'll take traditional American muscle over German fancy footwork.

The M is aimed at a different market and a buyer with a different focus.

Strangelove, I agree it is great to have solid competition, finally, from demostic automakers. The BMW is the defending champ, but can no longer claim to be the only game in town. The the sound and atmosphere of these great V8's are so different. This really is a wonderful time in history to love affordable performance.

I am not a big fan if huge V8s in a compact car. BMW has the right mix here, a 4l V8, I think thats as small as they get. Yet the engine performs just as well as the 6l V8 in the Pontiac. I believe engines with that kind of displacement belong on cars like the S class and on trucks. Putting such engines in smaller cars just screams desparation, lack of innovation, and an inability to embrace technology. Mercedes did the same with their 6l C class AMG. BMW deserves to win this one and all other huge V8s thrown in its direction. I would fork out the additional 25k for the superior technology.

I am not a big fan of huge V8s in a compact car. BMW has the right mix here, a 4l V8, I think thats as small as they get. Yet the engine performs just as well as the 6l V8 in the Pontiac. I believe engines with that kind of displacement belong on cars like the S class and on trucks. Putting such engines in smaller cars just screams desparation, lack of innovation, and an inability to embrace technology. Mercedes did the same with their 6l C class AMG. BMW deserves to win this one and all other huge V8s thrown in its direction. I would fork out the additional 25k for the superior technology.

"BMW deserves to win this one and all other huge V8s thrown in its direction. I would fork out the additional 25k for the superior technology."

When you say "superior" you mean, heavier, less powerful, more complicated, less reliable, and worse fuel comsumption, the the BMW engine is "superior". LoL!

More expensive and more complicated does NOT equal better, it equals snobbery....or just inferiority.

With that said, I LOVE all wheel drive, dual clutch transmissions, and forced induction.
Since GM does NOT offer all 3 in one sedan, I am seriously considering a 2010 335xi sedan with DCT if BMW offers it in the U.S. =)
I love great cars. No matter who makes them or how pretentious they may or may not be.

There are many things that need to be cleared up here. First, both cars are great to a certain extent. I personally prefer the M3 over the GXP, but thats just me. Some people are saying the M3 handles better because it weighs almost 400lbs. more and should be compared to a 750. The same 750 that weighs close to 5000lbs? I hope they mean 5 series.

Also, it was mentioned that the LS3's potential is greater than the S65. Well obviously considering the M3 is putting out 103hp per liter and the LS3 has only 66hp per liter. However, that is just one more reason why the M3 costs more than the G8, not to mention quality and build. And yes, if im paying over 50k on a car, it better have a nice interior.

BTW, the times for both cars including 0-60 and 1/4 mile are a bit off. M3 is capable of a 4.1 0-60 time while the GXP should also reach low 4's.(road and track got those number so IL should be able to also) But all that aside, both cars are good, but good in very different ways.

1krider1

I was simply focussed on what the engines are capable of, like g2holloway said, the hp/ltr difference is huge, almost 40%. That screams superior technology to me.
When it comes to performance, the easiest solution is to put a bus engine under the hood. I am not going to pay a cent for anyone who does that, BMW did a good job here, better than Lexus ISF and the C Class AMG.

Overall, yes there is a HUGE engine under the hood of the Pontiac and it achieves M3 numbers, if you love that sort of stuff, go for it. Wait, why not make it a 10 litre V8 while you are at it. LOL

Why do you like smaller engines or think they are better?
Is it because you ASSUME they are lighter, more powerful, and get better gas mileage?

News Flash:
The ALL ALUMINUM LSx engines (LS3, LS7, etc) are lighter, make more power, and get better gas mileage.

Do bus engines have composite intakes, titanium valves/rods, and dry sump oiling sytems?

"Overall, yes there is a HUGE engine under the hood of the Pontiac and it achieves M3 numbers, if you love that sort of stuff, go for it. Wait, why not make it a 10 litre V8 while you are at it. LOL"

You understand that displacement is not the physical space that an engine occupies in the bay, correct? Afterall how can GM fit 6.2 + a blower in the Vette adn CTS V (rhetorical question). In fact it's the Bimmer that needs the modified hood to fit the engine here you will notice.

I'm not arguing that the BMW isnt a cool car, heck it may be my favorite, but it's a bit grating to hear all the low tech stuff about GM. By the standards above the K series Honda or Rotary must be the greatest ever.

Keep in mind the average lightly modified G8 GT (tune, intake, exhaust)is probably generating the same power as the M3 for 25K - 28K OTD.

The $25k buys you resale.

If you want to buy 0-60 numbers measured in tenths and lateral G's you will never exploit on a bumpy public road, get a go-kart!

"The BMW is on the edge of its engine output and will not yield much more power."

Suspekt, the M3's V8 has A LOT more untapped potential than you may think. Maybe not as much as the LS3 (due to its conservative tuning, larger displacement and lower hp/L output), but it does have potential.

Some quotes from Edmunds poster Church123 (Church Automotive) who recently dynoed an E9X M3...

"Just dyno'd one today with an uncorked exhaust and it sounded so beautiful compared to the rather subdued and dare I say, anodyne, exhaust note of the stock car. Picked up a fair bit of hp too. It went from about 360 WHP to a little over 400WHP, and sounded much better. Shape of the curve really didn't change (power peaks and holds flat from about 7000 rpm to redline), but just made more power everywhere."

Again, not as near the edge as you may think. Im sure the G8s LS3 could pick up similar or probably more power with equivalent modifications.

As much as I like high performace vehicle comparisons, Im so sick of this whole import vs domestic thing as its become so old and tiring. In the end its not about what car is better its about what car is better for YOU!

I love both the G8 GT/GXP and the ///M3 however, I prefer small displacement super high reving engines to larger displacement torque monsters. Going on drivetrain characteristics alone Id spend the extra cash on the M3.

I love both of these cars. If all you are doing is drag racing though, there is no way to justify the price diff. The Bimmer was meant to take turns though, and the price difference, at least some of it, would be made up in that context. Having said that, there are few people flogging 67,000 sedans around a race track these days, and I wouldn't even think about it if I was dropping that kind of booty.

I like the sound of both V8's, and by no means would I diss the technology in the LS3. The M has that vicious flat-crank sound, but the GM engine has the classic baritone, and delivers respectable fuel economy. Different engineering solutions are interesting, but don't automatically count out displacement when it delivers so much performance, character, and economy in this application!

There is a lot of technology out there beyond "DOHC".

@1kidrider1, I've read the 3-series X-drive is particularly unreliable, and anecdotal evidence from my coworker's woes, as well. Have you researched that? Also, it doesn't extend the 3's driving dynamics, so I'd just invest in winter tires.

For the money and performance, the G8 is a great value. The extra money for the BMW though, buys additional refinements in the drive train and development in the suspension for that subjective difference that an enthusiast can really feel. Both are appealing cars, and I'd like to have both of them for my collector car garage -- if I had a collector car garage, that is.

Is the M3's engine a flat crank design? If so, I didn't realize that...I don't think I've heard a flat crank V8 before. But I sure love the traditional American cross plane V8 sound with the cool rumble, as long as its exhaust tuning is not too obnoxious.

1krider1

You keep going on about efficiency, the observed mileage on the Pontiac is 14mpg, for M3 its 18mpg. See C/D tests on both cars.
As for weight, lets put it this way, the M3 weighs more than the Pontiac, has a small engine and yet, well see the numbers above. 25k extra is totally worth it here. When I want a HUGE engine, I will buy a bus

i really hope gm is smart - make the pontiac g8 the next chevy impala - the impala sucks - this is a car that the Police would love to have -

Look, the G8 is a good car. But lets not get all nostalgic over it.

First of it is a Holden, designed by Australians.
Second, no one is buying them.
Third, the BMW carries technology that puts in a league above Pontiac.

If I had $42K, I would not spend it on a G8.

"Is the M3's engine a flat crank design?"

No, he said it sounds like a flat crank V8. To my knowledge, only Ferrari uses that architecture.

Personally I think the M3 sounds similar to a Ford Mustang GT thats went to finishing school. Sounds good.

Look, the G8 is a good car. But lets not get all nostalgic over it.

First of it is a Holden, designed by Australians.
Second, no one is buying them.
Third, the BMW carries technology that puts in a league above Pontiac.

If I had $42K, I would not spend it on a G8.

^^ No need to be a dick about it.

So?
So what?
False.

The LS3 is as refined as anything on the market and the chassis is just as good.

Don't buy one, I don't care, but don't be so quick to insult it cause it doesn't carry the white and blue badge.

The G8 and the M3 are an interesting duo. I feel like the M3 is the supermodel. She's slim, sleek, and bloody quick. She's also expensive to get and expensive to maintain

The G8 is more like a great wife. She'll do your dishes, change your tires, chop a little wood for the fire, stir it around, if it dies down...you'd be extremely happy and some of your friends will be jealous...but you still dream about the M3.

dbostondriver: the G8 may be australian-designed, but all the profits inevitably make their way back to detroit -- so you are indeed buying american when you buy the G8.

also, the heart and soul of this car -- the V8 -- is distinctly american. so the nostalgia is justified here.

still, it's great to see a debate about these two cars. they are definitely not meant to be cross-shopped, but it's all about the spirit of the debate. if GM really wants to go after BMW, though, they'll continue to do so with Cadillac, just like they have with the CTS-V boat-racing the M5 around the 'ring.

also, i'd like to add that many people seem to look down on those who try and show pride in american cars. in the 80s and 90s, it was totally justified, as US auto makers got fat and complacent. but the cars we are making now are absolutely comparable to their foreign counterparts -- and bear in mind, THEY all have national pride in their vehicles. we need to have more of our own, especially when the cars deserve it, as many now do. those that come to mind: the CTS, Corvette, Malibu, Escape Hybrid, Challenger, Camaro, G8... and who recently topped JD Power's most reliable list? the much-maligned Buick, which took Lexus out after almost a decade. with the re-designed Fusion (especially hybrid), the all-new Taurus SHO, and the Mustang (which is whipping the new, hyped-up Genesis Coupe in all comparisons), and the 2010 Focus (look it up), Ford is going to have a line-up to be reckoned with.

don't buy american cars unless they deserve it -- but don't overlook those that do.

There is a gestalt factor here. As one poster said, these two cars will never be comparison shopped. If you have the money for an M3 you're probably not shopping any Pontiac vehicles.

Also, Germans do not tend to make drag racers which generally require large displacement engines, low end torque, and are calculated to move in a straight line. Germans tend to make cars that will rush through the Alps, Rockies or a pacific coast highway with hairpin turns. They have to handle autobahns, speedy Porsche's, heavy traffic, high taxes and expensive gas. So they are engineered with not only performance but with efficiency in mind. That's why they hate cupholders, glove boxes and anything impractical in a car. The BMW M cars all get over 100hp/liter, highest anywhere. They use the smallest engines possible which compromises torque but they are tuned and balanced for amazingly high revs (8300). There is only one reason these cars are compared and its horsepower similarities.

Having owned lots of American cars plus driving them for work as fleet cars I can assure you there is a huge difference between that G8 and M3. The first difference is confidence. That's why all BMW's will hold their value better than all Pontiacs on any basis you want to compare. That's why I'd bet on any BMW vs any American car or Pontiac for the first 100k miles. The Americans may be coming up to snuff with the Caddy brand but they are too late and I still have no confidence that if I bought a CTS-V instead of an M5 or M3 that is would last 5 years doing track work and daily drives.

Last year I test drove a G5 convertible, Mustang, Sebring, Eclipse and the BMW128Ci, plus a few others. Even though it cost more, the 128Ci was the best for me and its been a road-trippin' gem. So, I do look at most cars in a class and I keep on going foreign for performance, styling, resale and confidence. Yeah, the numbers here like most comparisons give you enough to justify either choice you might make...and if you just want a tuner, then you should almost always spend less on the platform, but virtually no one is going to tune either of these cars. When you really go to buy a car and put your hard earned heavily taxed cash down there is a bigger "gestalt" picture that uses these data as only a starting point.

Having said that...I love comparison tests of most any sort, lol!

These two cars are not exactly comparable. Enough people have said it, yet there are a few out here that only want to talk 0-60 times, not the overall picture, like handling. Second, the extra 25k in the BMW gets you a real interior, not GM plastic fantastic, which I don't care if it's the Aveo or the CTS, GM uses way too much and it looks cheap. And good leather. And steering with feel. On the drag strip, these don't mean much, but for a daily driver and long term satisfaction, these are huge pluses. And while the LS3 maybe a fine engine, it doesn't hold a candle when it comes to modern advances in engine technology.

That being said, I think the G8 is probably the best car to come out of GM in quite some time and if I was looking for a straight line racer that could seat 4, I'd put the G8 near the top of my list.

Personally, I'm sticking with my Audi S4 until someone comes out with a great AWD performance sedan.

If you're going to compare the best of the factory outputs, then match the M3 up with the GTS.. http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/Eseries/gts/gts.asp

"I was simply focussed on what the engines are capable of, like g2holloway said, the hp/ltr difference is huge, almost 40%. That screams superior technology to me."

Superior technology? Not really, its a matter of displacement and valvetrain. In 99% of cases a DOHC engine makes more hp per liter than an OHV engine. Why? DOHC engines can force more air into a cylinder than a comparable sized OHV engine. This is why OHV engines need to be larger. A larger engine is not a low tech engine. You need to look at materials, weight, durability and performance characteristics to determine if an engine is "low tech". To suggest that BMW should be charging $25k more for the M3 simply because its V8 gets more hp/l is absurd.

Also, some have suggested that BMW has far more experience with RWD performance cars than GM. This is untrue. The G8 is based on a Holden and HOldens have been RWD and featured big hp for years. They never abandoned RWD sedans like GM's US brands and thus have DECADES of experience developing great RWD cars. The G8's suspension and chassis are every bit as sophisticated as what BMW offers. When the G8 was new Automobile mag compared the G8 to a $70k 550i and found that both cars handled in the same manner. The G8's chassis is robust and was designed to meet European and Australian standards. Do not forget this car is sold as a Vauxhall in the UK and is expected to go head to head with RWD models from Germany.

sfpackfan:

Can you explain where you came up with the idea that the G8 is a 60s style muscle car? Have you read anytihng about the car? The GXP was developed on the Ring, its not just about straight line performance. Try reading up on the car before telling us about its shortcomings. The people on here who actually know something about the G8 never claimed that its competitive on acceleration times alone.

"They have to handle autobahns, speedy Porsche's, heavy traffic, high taxes and expensive gas. So they are engineered with not only performance but with efficiency in mind. That's why they hate cupholders, glove boxes and anything impractical in a car. "

Efficiency? The M3 gets 14/20 which is probably the worst mileage of any compact car sold in America. All European car companies hate cupholders becuase Europeans dont want them in cars, they don't believe in drinking while you drive. It has nothing to do with impracticality or BMWs commitment to performance. MB, Audi and all the rest of the Euro brands are known to treat cupholders as afterthoughts.

Getting your kicks in a sedan?

At these price points potential buyers are buying second or third cars. Why buy a fun to drive sedan when you can buy a real sports car?

Sure, if you can buy a sedan with performance upgrades, that's more fun than a sedan without them. But only to a point.

High performance sedans are generally designed to separate pretentious buyers from their money. Better to buy a Miata and learn how to drive a slow car fast.

gmw,

If one is good at driving a slow car fast then maybe it's time to move into something with better chassis strength and power? In the e46 the sedan model had a more structurally sound chassis than the e46 coupe. I don't believe this holds any longer for the e90 v. e92. The e92 has the carbon fiber roof, is lighter and sits lower so in theory it should perform better. But if one wants a daily driver (family perhaps) that can be a tracker on weekends the 335i or M3 e90 will get the job done like few other cars.

Personally, I wouldn't opt for the e92 M3. No it's not because it's ugly as sin (atrociously so, but then again the M3 sedan is bland as all get out). If I'm going for a coupe in that price range a used 911 or Cayman S is where my eyes will fall.

Miatas are delicious fun. And a fine extra car for weekends. But would I take a Miata as a daily driver over my 335i? If not for the kid, maybe. :)

bankerdanny:

I drive an IS350 that I bought over the IS250 because of the larger engine, faster times, bragging rights etc. However...

I pay a higher insurance premium, I get lower mpg, and the car was 6K than a comparable IS250.

Long story short: I wouldn't do it again. Why? I don't race this car. Yes, it feels good to have a fastER car. But the 215 ponies on the 250 are plenty for the Californian topography.

Although track times are important. Sometimes people get carried away by them and forget that these acquired assets are not weekend racing cars but mere daily drivers. How do thoes .0001 differences have an impact on a daily commute?

The GXP and the M3 are two great cars with impressive (and comparable) stats.

Dunno, M3 drivers now a days think they're the shiznit, a la the post above. I preferred it back in the old days when the original M3 meant something - it was an enthusiast car. Too many posers driving them now.

Also, the G8 is really a Holden Commodore HSV, which makes it really cool that you can drive a Holden in the states.

"Personally, I'm sticking with my Audi S4 until someone comes out with a great AWD performance sedan."

Ha, ha ..it was interesting until you mentioned the sultan of understeer. It's not even the most performance oriented AWD car with 4 doors for under 50K.

The GXP would own the S4 around any track other than maybe autocross.

The one thing you won't ever here from a BMW owner is the cost of maintenance and repairs. Sure they are great new, but wait until the warranty runs out. I'll take my American muscle.

1487

"You need to look at materials, weight, durability and performance characteristics to determine if an engine is "low tech". To suggest that BMW should be charging $25k more for the M3 simply because its V8 gets more hp/l is absurd."

Its interesting you bring in materials, durability & perfomance xrecteristics, if comparing BMW v8s to Pontiacs, Pontiac is still screaming low tech. So you are just contradicting yourself. I have nothing against American cars although I will never buy one.

SJAIEVE: From your quote "I have nothing against American cars although I will never buy one." I can say the following:
This type of mentality is the same one but one the other side of the spectrum of a "buy american" guy.
You mention low tech and my thing about it is:
The RX8 screams high tech, great weight distribution, sophisticated door configuration but... how does these qualities make the Mazda a better car than any of its competitors? All this still produces mediocre MPG and over all performance. High tech doesn't ALWAYS translates into a better car.

Props to Pontiac but in all honesty a 135i is quicker around a track so why are we even considering an e92 m3 in this comparison is beyond me.

Zoolander

I am not making a broad statement, I am only making a statement in the contest of a comparison btwn the G8 GXP and the M3. if you look at the post you quoted I included performance, durability and materials over and above the fact that this is a 4l engine going toe to toe, if not better than the 6l V8. Originally I had even stated that the C63AMG (6l V8) and 5l ISF (5l V8) have been beaten by the M3's 4l v8 in many comparisons. Its actually unfair to compare the G8 to the M3 as it will only result in a massacre. I NEVER said its a bad car, thats for those who buy it to decide. I only said the M3 is just ahead in the evolutionary cycle.

i keep seeing this mention of reliability. understand this: BMW makes incredible driving cars.

the are NOT known for reliability. in fact, if you take off the rose-colored glasses and forget hero-worship of the M cars, they actually aren't that reliable at all and can be expensive to fix.

material quality, steering quality, handling... BMW is legendary for these things. reliability? no.

Re: Strangelove

Acutally according to the latest reliabily stats BMW was ranked 6th right behind Honda.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2009/01/2009-car-brand-perceptions-survey/top-five-in-brand-perception/brand-perceptions-top-5.htm

1487...and where exactly does the G8 out handle the M3? It simply doesn't. It's by far better than the slushies that GM has been producing for years with their strong as jello frames, but it's still not as tight as the BMW. I live in the mountains, and the BMW's handling is far superior to the G8.

And t10, yes the S4 has understeer, but so do all other awd cars. Big deal. With the current drive system and traction control off, it's pretty easy to switch it to oversteer, but the key is predictability and balance. But you'd know this if you actually drove one. And yes there are a few lighter weight AWD performance sedans on the market for under 50k, but nothing that I would want to drive on a daily basis.

I am beginning to doubt Insideline's numbers...The Pontiac G8 GT runs the slalom at 65mph but the GXP doesn't??? Also the new Chevrolet Hybrid Silverado 4x4 that Insideline just tested runes the slalom at 62mph. A 5000+ pound 4x4 runs the slalom one mile slower than a 415hp sedan?? Whats going on here...

I say close enough for jazz. What I'd really like to see compared, though, is M3 vs CTS-V. And CTS-V vs M5.

"Its interesting you bring in materials, durability & perfomance xrecteristics, if comparing BMW v8s to Pontiacs, Pontiac is still screaming low tech. So you are just contradicting yourself. I have nothing against American cars although I will never buy one. "

How is the LS3 low tech? It redlines at 6600rpm which is comparable to most DOHC V8s displacing 4.5L or more. Its all aluminum in construction. It has all types of features that ensure light weight and durability and can go 100k without a tuneup. Niether of these engines has direct injection.

sfpack:

What in the world are you talking about? When did I say the G8 outperforms the M3? Never. The M3 is 400lbs lighter and a foot shorter so it damn well better be able to get through the slalom faster than the G8. I said earlier that the G8 is closer in size to the 750 than to the M3. The G8 GXP is a LARGE car that handles very well for its size. Objectively speaking its very close to the M3 in terms of performance and its lap time at the Ring is around 8:20 if I remember correctly. That is only a few seconds off the pace of the M3. Not bad considering the extra mass of the car. You betray your ignorance by suggesting GM platforms are not rigid. Typical of ignorance diplayed by brand jockeys who dont bother to read up on vehicles not made by the company they worship. GM has been investing in rigid platforms since the G platform debuted with the first gen Aurora in 1994. GM was the first (and often only) manufacturer to post the rigidity of its new models. The sigma platform (CTS) as well as GM's other recent platforms are incredibly rigid which is one reason why GM vehicles tend to be heavy.

sjaive,

the fact that you clearly state that you would never buy an american car (the G8 isnt really American BTW) shows that you do have something against them and thus your criticisms should be taken with a grain of salt. If you have some tangible evidence that the G8 is lacking sophistication let us know. The auto media do not support your position.

"I say close enough for jazz. What I'd really like to see compared, though, is M3 vs CTS-V. And CTS-V vs M5."

M5 vs CTS-V:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Fop4eC1cw

Both cars are great on and off the track however (people MUST realize) they take different paths to extracting their performance. The CTS-V obviously uses MUCH more brute force while the BMW uses its slightly sharper reflexes and more finesse.

The CTS-V posted better lap times however it didnt K I L L the M5 as most have said. Of course over a longer period of time and distance (Nur-Ring for example) the CTS-V would have an even larger advantage.

Listen carefully to the commentator in the video about the driving dynamics of both cars. The Caddy carries a significant punch however its not superior in ALL AREAS of performance. The BMW still has a few areas (despite its age) where its cleary superior.

BMW M5 track performance advantages:
- Superior confidence and feel in performance from braking system.
- Chassis felt more solid, suspension refinement and composure are at a higher level.
- More finesse.

Cadillac CTS-V track performance advantages:
- Power/tq.
- More immediately entertaining.
- Consistently better lap times.
- More brute force.

BMW M5 on road advantages:
- Prestige. (that matters to some)
- Exhaust note.
- ///M Dyanmic configurations.
- Free maintenence progam.
- Modification potential.

Cadillac CTS-V on road advantages:
- Significantly more power.
- Exhaust note.
- Substantially cheaper.
- Better fuel economy.
- Less maintenence (over a longer period of time).
- Modification potential (plenty of LS series parts).

I'll probably get slaughtered by the CTS fans for saying this but it looks as if the CTS-V's main advantages are price and more standard power, the latter which BMW can easily address.

Im unsure of what BMW has in mind for the next M5 but it should be able to dethrone the CTS-V just as the CTS-V has done to the M5. However, consistent leap frogging gets annoying after a while.

In the end its not so much about which is the better car as it is about personal preference. I love both cars but that ferocious high revving V10 makes the hair on my neck stand!

1487....So I'm an ignorant brand jockey. Ok. I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up for me. So what brand would that be, since I've owned 2 Fords, a Toyota, 2 BMW's, an Audi, an Infiniti, and a Masareti in the last 10 years. I've read about and driven the G8 as well as many other GM vehicles and continue to feel that while their chassis have improved, they still feel like they are held together with elmer's glue and zip straps. Just close the doors on one of their cars and you can instantly feel the build quality difference. Maybe it's that extra 3 grand they spend on legacy costs instead of engineering.

sfpackfan

I noticed that you have not ever OWNED a GM vehicle, but yet feel that they hare held togeter with elmer's glue. You also state that you've owned an Audi, I sure hope that you carried bus fare in your pocket. And what Masarati owner does not know how to spell the marque.

That being said, with the price differential being what it is, as the owner of a G8 GT, when the warranty expires, one can simply go to GM Performance Parts and buy any number of LS series engines and install in a G8 GT and still come out ahead. For $21K you can buy a ZR-1 638 HP engine, or for even less, you can purchase a 480 HP LS3 series engine. With both, you get a 2 YR/ 50K mile warranty.

As far as interiors go, granted the BMW is higher quality, but it too, is full of plastic, like every other car on the road today. If you are driving a car near the limits, you better be paying attention to driving rather than admiring the better "quality" of the plastic.

A few comments since my earlier post. First Germans hate cupholders because their average drive is short, cars are smaller and likely to be on an autobahn if there's any distance. You don't shift, drive 130 mph dodging other high performance cars and sip on your overheated cappucino. Only here at the average Sominex speeds on the (well patrolled) open roads is that an OK idea. Frankly, we are lazy drivers with lots of "rights" on the road and lots of different skill levels and vehicle capabilities.

I have owned and driven lots of American cars and for me it really comes down to confidence and trust. I became a reasonably good mechanic early in my life because of crappy American cars like the Citation. I don't have the time, inclination or necessary tools to do it anymore. This G8 or any of the similar cars, Camarro's etc. may be the schnizzle but I don't trust 'em overall. I also have no confidence in the resale values after I get one if I decide I want something else. I DO think if you want to talk power and tuning as many here do, you want the G8 for all the good reasons listed. But if you want class, confidence and some unique character, the M3 gets you there with no extra effort. It is the differnce in the two nameplates. If BMW builds it, whether its a Mini, Beemer or Rolls, you know its got some serious engineering. They just don't make garbage at any price point. I think Toyota and Honda have done much the same to their credit. Even a cheap one is solid vehicle.

I don't know about the confidence standpoint, I would say the way they have the GXP setup, the car handles really confidently and is always predictable at the limit or even a bit beyond the limit. And a lot of ppl seem to be forgetting that the G8 is a big damn car. Not that it's an excuse not to perform super well in the handling department, the way a car handles is much more than just statistics, sure the numbers can be put down, but can you control the damn car confidently at that edge. The M cars got their stripes because of that ability, Holden probably copied a bit of that DNA, but despite that has it's own handling character, the fact the battery is in the trunk of the car for one thing shows that performance was a goal from the very beginning of the cars development. Now, I wouldn't equate the G8 to even being an American car, 85% of the car is australian.