The Underrated List

I actually really like this list. Wagons and hatchbacks are criminally underrated. There's really nothing on this list I disagree with, except the Audi TT. I don't know why, but it just doesn't move me. I wish it did. I know it should. But it doesn't. I think I agree most with tires. A good set of tires even makes my Cobalt (which apparently normally drives as bad as a new Mazda3 looks) drive decently sporty. Great list!

I want to believe in American cars right now. I have a great older Maxima - 11 years old and still feels rock solid. I'm liking the G37, but part of me wants to come back to American enginering and design. I've read the long term tests, but will these American cars still please at 175,000 miles? Please, someone give me some great news here!

jederino,
Perhaps you should upgrade to a 2009 Nissan Maxima SV Premium, built right in Smyrna, Tennessee. Wow, 4 bucket seats. Comfort for everyone.

love the lists. I don't always agree but they are fun reading and it makes it even more fun knowing that some people get so mad just because of some of it.

I do hope the folks at Mazda read the line "now that the new Mazda 3 looks like the Chevy Cobalt drives"

> Driving a car that makes you feel good
And who cares what someone else thinks about it? I prefer driving a car that I don't see 100 of on my way home from work. (looking at the G8 in ignition orange sitting on a dealers lot on my other monitor right now)

I can't believe some of the tires people put on their cars and the worn out ones they drive around with. They'd get the car painted if the finish looked that bad but nobody sees the tread so who cares. Good tires just might save your life at the right moment.

Here's one to add to the prior overrated list "Some people's opinions" I love reading replys on here where people just flat out blast a cars styling, claiming that it is beyond argument ugly, not just that they don't like it but that nobody likes it or ever could. What ever happened to just saying "I don't like the way that car looks". No... their opinion is so important that it is actually fact. Or the 'how dare someone not have the same opinion as me' They are opinions people, much like a bodily orifice, everyone has them, some just smell worse than others.
Lighten up people, enjoy life.

YES! finally I'm not the only one who thinks that wagons should rule the roads of the US.

and another random thought, maybe if fewer people drove SUV's, we'd have less road rage. Kinda out there, but just saying, usually if I'm getting angry at a driver, it's because I can't see why they're slowing down or driving unusually because their car is so big i can't see around it...

I agree with most on this list except the 3 Series part. If anything the 3 series is overrated, it sometimes seems like everything gets compared to it.

Also the XK isn't much to look at it, in my opinion. The profil is good but the frontal view is ugly.

You think that the 3-Series is underrated? The 3-Series is one of the most talked about and praised cars on this website. Just ask Car and Driver, they worship the 3-Series.

Come on man, this has to be some kind of joke.

Is it April Fools already or have you had too much to drink.

This is great ha. Love the Murano statement...could't agree more.

Awesome list. But Audi's are for German cement salesman.

You missed one though... the Gumpert Apollo and seats that have no fore and aft adjustment so you can't mess up the car's weight distribution. That I find hilarious.

Hatchbacks: "they only buy good hatchbacks like the Mini Cooper and the VW Rabbit". Let me rephrase this for you. They only buy overpriced hatchbacks because they're posers. The bang for buck on the Copper and Rabbit is pretty low.

BMW 3 Series: Underrated. You clearly live in bizarro world. The 3 series has been overrated for a very long time. Overpriced to boot. It may be a good car, but it's expensive and only bought buy people who want to say they have a BMW.

The Ugliness of the Nissan Murano: You nailed that one.

actually a pretty good list!

jederino, sitting in my driveway is an 11 year old American SUV and a 9 year old American sedan. Neither has had a major repair and both start just fine when it's -30F.

These are vehicles built during the period that the media would like us to believe that American cars were poorly built. If these are poorly built, today's cars must walk on water.

I never had a reason not to believe in American cars.

"But if you're not buying a Ford Flex or a Buick Enclave or a Pontiac G8 or a Cadillac CTS or a Ford Edge, etc. because you think it's going to fall apart and spend most of its days at the dealership service department, you're living in the past. And the Inside Line Long-Term Test blog is packed with real-world data to support this."

I guess that excludes the Saturn Aura...

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/2007/08/2007-saturn-aura-xr---steering-issues-again.html

belive me japanese reliability isnt what its cracked up to be. honda's transmitions have been poorly built since just before 2000's with the 98+ year accord. i really dont like having to replace my transmition 2 times before 100,000 miles simply cause honda refuses to have a recall. my next car is American. American cars arent bad cars at all. they never were "bad" cars. they were just seen as bad cars simply cause it wasnt Japanese or German.

Although I don't live and/or work in Detroit, I thought the remark about those that did if they disagree re your remarks on the 3 series was out of line. It was the minority of the people, the grossly overpaid executives, that made repeatedly poor decisions over years that caused the big 3 to be on the verge of bankruptcy, and so many of the rank and file to lose their jobs.

The rank and file in Detroit (and in a lot of places) are hurting, and saying that if they disagree with you that they have ball bearings for brains was over the top, IMO.

Nice list but one thing I'd have to utterly disagree about is the 3 series. First off all this car is so positively rated that if it were to receive any more positive press it would supersede Jesus in status. Just look around at all the people driving the 3 series based on its popularity and reputation and that'll give you a reason why its overrated. I've always preferred the a4 to the 3 series personally.

On another note the "driving something that makes you feel good" is great. Look at these ads by toyota, honda, and lexus. They name reasons for owning a car like MPG, resale, etc but I have NEVER heard them mention anything about driving. I'm sick of a car purchase resting on the same laurels as buying a dishwasher.

I could not agree more about the 3 series, BMW seems to want to charge you for everything. I also agree that the 3 series is overpriced, and way over rated. I do prefer the a4 over the 3 series myself. Audi's just have that functionality + fun to drive factor that makes it a preference for me.

And I also couldn't agree more about buying a car for fun to drive + functionality. I think there is nothing worse than not having a car that you love, just because you are trying to save a buck or worry about resale value, a car is a rapidly depreciating investment, plain in simple. Unless of course a car is an exotic/ rare car then it might actually keep its value or go up or down. ddark13 we should grab a beer some time and talk about cars, I couldn't agree more with your statements.

I finally agree with pretty much most of this list... especially "domestic quality." I'm impressed with what I've been observing in regards to domestic quality over the past year. Only the past year. Seems like GM in particular is starting to really get it right starting with new models released for 2008 and each new model to follow... pretty much. I haven't checked it out for myself, but IL is saying the new Traverse needs improvement in some of the build quality for the interior. I was impressed when the new Malibu grabbed the J.D. Powers award for Initial Quality. If the new LaCrosse is equal to or better (which I would think/hope better) than the Malibu, then I think GM has 2 home runs so far.

Speaking of the new LaCrosse: many want to jump all over the fact that GM designed it with the Chinese market in mind. Buick does best in China, but has anyone really looked into why? I'll tell you why: the Chinese Buick gets Buicks that we don't see here in America. They get GM cars from Europe and Australia that are rebadged as Buicks. The new Opel Insignia (Europe's '09 Car of the Year) is being rebadged as the new Buick Regal for China. The Chinese Park Avenue was/is a Holden Commadore from Australia and so on. So, in that case, if a car is good enough to be a Chinese market Buick, then it's a pretty damn good car. Check out the Chinese Park Avenue at this link and explore the Chinese Buicks and wish they were in the American offerings!: http://www.buick.com.cn/parkavenue/index.aspx

To sum it up: not all current domestic offerings are of the much needed improved quality, but basically all new models coming out are. It's about time. Now to hope the engines and transmissions are equal to that improved quality.

I have to let you know that I, along with tens-of-thousands of other "ball bearings-for-brains" Detroit auto industry workers, thank you for your slightly misguided opinion that represents the 80th percentile of the average car buyer in the USA.

So thank you, and the others, for your ignorant remarks that continue to contribute to the demise of the single greatest industry in our country.

And yes. My "ball bearing brain" does agree with you that the BMW 3 Series is the single most wonderful vehicle being built today.

In regards to the comments on wagons and hatchbacks:
I totally agree. Underrated. Car performance with SUV-like practicality. With little or no compromise on fuel efficiency. People would have to be silly not to buy them.

I honestly wasn't a fan of hatchbacks at all. But then good-looking hatchbacks like the Mazda 3 and Volkswagen Rabbit came out and I was hopelessly converted to being a huge fan of hatchbacks.

It clearly shows as I drive a VW GTI and I couldn't think of a much better car for all seasons and moving people and stuff around while getting good mileage (when I'm not driving like I stole it, anyway).

I love how the title of this article is "the underrated listed", yet half the items on the list aren't things that are being underrated.

Who underrates the ZR1? Has anyone on the planet even said that it is anything less than a great car?

Who underrates the BMW 3 series? Personally, I think that while it's a good car, it's overrated.

Concept cars don't save companies. Chrysler is so far behind the times that I simply don't see them surviving. Their current "Halo" car is old and still uses a four-speed automatic. Only when you go to the top-of-the-line model, which is double the price of the base model, do you even get a five-speed. Hello, the eighties are calling..

How does complaining about the look of the Murano or Maxima show those vehicles to be underrated?

The same applies to iDrive.

And I absolutely love when journalists talk about the "It" factor. You know what you call something that cannot be quantified as a fact? An opinion. Don't try and use some vague unmeasurable metric to try and validate your opinion, it's not possible.

And it just goes on and on. You have no focus in your article, other than principally to spout your opinions and to do so in a way that will get people to challange you.

You're not attempting to provoke thoughtfull discussion, or educate your readers, you're just trying to get a response. It's just sad and pathetic, that with all of the anger in the world already, you feel you have to incite more just to get some attention.

I guess that I'm almost as sad, because I expect you'll actually read this, then ignore it.

The Lancer may well be underrated. Then again, it's 300 lbs overweight and gets about the same fuel economy as my MIL's nine-year-old LeSabre. It also comes with a bloody awful CVT. So it has a lot to overcome, including its own spec sheet.

A correction to my earlier post. The Chinese Park Avenue isn't the Commadore, it's the Holden Caprice, and if Buick in the US offered cars like that here, they wouldn't have to WISH for Lexus customers to flood the showrooms ... they would HAVE Lexus customers flooding the showrooms.

I heart wagons and hatchbacks too, but all the wagons seem to come from Europe. This isn’t a bad thing necessarily, but they’re damn expensive. Unless you want a tall wagon an Edge, Murano or Venza, the pickins seem a little slim.

With all the “right sizing” going on today in the auto industry, I think the Malibu Maxx and Dodge Magnum were a little ahead of their time. They would both probably fare better in today’s market.

I’m super-stoked about the Honda Crosstour (or whatever it ends up being called). That’s going to be my next vehicle.

I'll see your list and raise you one. SIMPLICITY! Designers and manufacturers alike are getting stupid when it comes to simplicity. Have you tried to get in a few new cars out there lately and just start it and drive away? First you have to figure what if anything that you need the key for. Then there's the shifters that do not make any sense. And forget about figuring out the radio or climate systems!

I mean I understand that lots of sweet technology is proliferating its way into every car made. It's just that I think some transparency would be nice! Can I get an AMEN!?!

Thank you for championing the cause of wagons and hatches. As some regular comment readers might know, I too am a wagon fan. In fact, I own the domains wagonfan.com (blog) and wagonfans.com (forum). I'm formally inviting all my wagon-loving brethren over to wagonfans.com to talk about these great vehicles. :)

"Hatchbacks: "they only buy good hatchbacks like the Mini Cooper and the VW Rabbit". Let me rephrase this for you. They only buy overpriced hatchbacks because they're posers. The bang for buck on the Copper and Rabbit is pretty low."

The bang for the buck on Cooper (and on my old Golfs...ie the pre-Rabbit) is great. You'd be hard pressed to name me a more fun vehicle for the price.

If by bang you literally mean engine power, then yes there are others out there with more for less. However, I don't believe in shopping by spreadsheet.

So is your dad on vacation when your articles get approved? That's the only way I can see them getting by anybody of authority.

You obviously don't have a dictionary to explain the true meaning of "Underrated". The iDrive, Murano, It Factor. Seriously?

"And not some fake high-riding wagon like the Benz R-Class, the Ford Flex and that new Toyota Venza thing". Then, towards the end of your dribble, "Ford Flex
Ford's best. Proof Mulally and Co. are capable of getting it 97 percent right."

From your last OVERRATED list, "2009 Chevy Corvette
Fast? Yup. Affordable? Kinda. Plasticky? Oh yeah. Looks like it got rear-ended by a semi? Twice."
But now your love the ZR-1...

When daddy gets back, make sure to tell him that your work needs proofed before you let it hit the web.

Also, the Lancer is DEFINITELY underrated. Its a decent vehicle on the inside, with plenty of features for a good price. On the outside, I think its the most interesting (in a positive way) looking 4-door car under $30k. I drive stick, so the CVT doesn't bother me. My Lancer was getting mileage similar to my friend's Mazda3, so that shouldn't be an argument against it. Not everyone buys small cars for mileage, else the 3 wouldn't exist.

So is your dad on vacation when your articles get approved? That's the only way I can see them getting by anybody of authority.

You obviously don't have a dictionary to explain the true meaning of "Underrated". The iDrive, Murano, It Factor. Seriously?

"And not some fake high-riding wagon like the Benz R-Class, the Ford Flex and that new Toyota Venza thing". Then, towards the end of your dribble, "Ford Flex
Ford's best. Proof Mulally and Co. are capable of getting it 97 percent right."

From your last OVERRATED list, "2009 Chevy Corvette
Fast? Yup. Affordable? Kinda. Plasticky? Oh yeah. Looks like it got rear-ended by a semi? Twice."
But now your love the ZR-1...

When daddy gets back, make sure to tell him that your work needs proofed before you let it hit the web.

Also, the 3-series and Honda Accord? They're the leaders in their respective segments! How is that underrated? I know enough people have pointed this out, but I don't think it can be pointed out enough.

And driving a car that makes you feel good?
Doesn't that kind of negate 3/4 of your list?

Oh, and jettawolf, did you really feel the need to throw in the SUV=roadrage comment? I can probably list about 20 other things that cause road rage. A good rule to follow to cure your problem, when you see brake lights come on in front of you, move your foot to your brake pedal.
If all cars were the same size, you still wouldn't be able to see what's going on ahead of you...

"If all cars were the same size, you still wouldn't be able to see what's going on ahead of you..."

Totally not true. I move around SUV's as fast as I safely can. I may as well be driving behind my house given the lack of visibility. If I may assume you are an SUV driver given your response, how do you like driving behind a tractor trailer. I thought so.

The top three underated on my list are the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8, Pontiac G8, and Domestic quality.

While we all love the overpriced XK, ZR1, TT, and the V-Series cars they belong to the exotic not underatted.

"...I hope you die."

I second that motion.

WTF? A tractor trailer? At least you're not stretching it a little. Tell me this...you are the same height as the car in front of you. Let's say for example he has tinted windows (which most cars do these days). How is it exactly that you see what's going on down the road?
Swerve to the side? "I thought so"

Also, not every SUV is a Ford Excursion.

"Totally not true. I move around SUV's as fast as I safely can". Jumbo Shrimp, military intelligence, etc.

I agree, I love underrated vehicles. I drive a 2005 GTO and my wife has a 2007 Suzuki XL7. With the GTO, where can you get another vehicle with 400 hp all aluminum V8, 6 speed tremec trans, fully independent suspension, APB racing brakes. full leather non old school GM interior for $27k brand new?

With the XL7, its a stretched GM Equinox/Torrent but with all the upgrades! 3.6L V6 (Yes the engine GM is putting in all their good vehicles) AWD, ESP, ABS, leather interior, sun roof, fully transferable 7/100k powertrain warranty and the works for $22k new.

I think you can spot a REAL car guy/gal if they drive an underrated car. The only downfall is on the resale value but I don't care, I keep my cars for at least 10 yrs.

Having owned 3 foreign cars and 6 american cars I don't understand what the fuss is about foreign cars. I had 1 German and 2 Japanse cars. These cars cost more to buy, repair and had more problems than my 6 american cars, and I've had at least one from all the Big Three.
Quality is in the eye of the beholder, now that foreign cars aren't as reliable these people automaticaly think the american cars are worse than their's.
And finally if we all bought from the Big Three our counrty wouldn't be in such a big mess.

Everyone in the comments saying the 3 series is over rated is exactly why it's under rated.

I agree completely. Americans have really bad taste when it comes to vehicles. Seriously, SUV's are so passe and boring and there are so many good American cars out now, such as the G8 and yet it gets ignored. I don't get it.

"Pontiac G8 GT
Dollar for dollar, pound for pound, feature for feature, this is America's best sedan."

I agree.
I bought a 2009 G8 GT last November.
No issues, so far.
- Ray
3,000+ miles...

I love irony. All the folks complaining that the 3 series is overrated are making The Mechanic's point. YOU are among the people who are underrating it, not the automotive press (who, justifiably, love it). Half the world loves the 3 series, and the other half hates the first half for loving the 3 series.

Here in socal, 3 series are a dime a dozen... well maybe not so much anymore as I look on Autotrader and find a ton of them for sale within my 25 mile radius. Hmmmm.... all the former mortgage lenders and real estate agents apparently can no longer afford them.

I used to own one and it was a yawner. Why? too refined and too overpriced. OK, so I don't like my cars so refined that they seemed to have lost their soul. Kudos to BMW for that feat in engineering. And I don't really blame them for overpricing those things. After all, we reached a Euro exchange rate of 1.60 over the summer. BMW and other German cars were going ot lose their shirts on their intro cars if they didn't jack up the prices. Hopefully with the Dollar stronger BMW can get back to basics. Afterall, in Germany, a 3 series is the equivalent to a Honda Accord in status and in price.

For now, it's way overrated - at least here in Orange and LA County.

Now I'm certain you've lost your mind. The $75,00 Nissan GT-R is overrated while the dime a dozen-bodied ZR-1 at $100,000+ with performance numbers strikingly similar to the Nissan is underrated? The GT-R looks like nothing else and turns heads. The Vette looks like a Vette and they're everywhere. You can put a Kleenex over the difference in their performance numbers.

Here's underrated... buy the GT-R instead of the plastic Vette and buy your wife a loaded Honda Accord or Maxima with the spare change.

You need to get a job in a field you know something about.

I missed compliance's comment. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees such an obvious answer.

Please name a car or wagon that can tow a 4,000 pound trailer...

There are actually those of us that need an SUV.
Now don't get me wrong, I can't stand to see the soccer mom with one kid driving a Yukon XL just because she thinks it's the safest vehicle when an accident occurs (quite the contrary).

But to say that SUV's are passe is just stretching it too far.

I wanted more than anything to get a Dodge Magnum R/T AWD for here in the mountains. It fit the dogs, the kids, out stuff, was all sorts of comfortable and got decent gas mileage, but as I said before, it wouldn't tow our camper.

So I had to go the SUV route. I looked at the American contingent, but didn't see anything that got the gas mileage I get (avg. 19) had enough giddyup to it, and had a good resale value.

I've had 4 American made vehicles...all quality rides. I was happy with them, but when it came time to trade in, I had to look at every factor, not just one or two.

I feel American made vehicles have made huge strides in their quality, interior and exteior design and dollar-for-dollar quotient. When the need arises for my next vehicle, I'm going to everything I can to buy American. But I'm not going to trade in my year-old vehicle because it'll make me look patriotic in everyone elses eyes.

Alero 6 said it best. Foreign cars are more expensive to buy, more expensive to repair, and their quality is slipping. And with everything that the Big 3 are throwing at us in terms of rebates, warranties and new line-ups, I think anyone would be foolish not to at least take a serious look at what they have to offer. I did my homework, and it just happened that there wasn't anything that fit the bill.

Next time.

I know your column is supposed to be somewhat sarcastic, but BMW3? Underrated?! Every InsideLine reader and above-average consumer knows that BMW 3 IS the benchmark sedan.

What about Hyundai? They continually sell reliable and well built vehicles at a much lower price and industry leading warranty package and yet, average consumers still cite the old reasoning about how awful Korean cars are. These are the people who truly live in the past.

Domestic quality is underrated? I disagree. Even your "real world" data proved that Ford Focus, Jeep, and Caravan were all disasters. Domestic quality still has loooooooooooooong ways to go.

XK with the Taurus front end no way come on someone give that car a face lift…

Murano vs. new Maxima? Can’t tell you which one is truly uglier? Drives great, feels wonderful, but looks like a kindergarten finger-paint gone so wrong.

And so disagree with the XLR! It is the closest that us mere mortals can get to owning the Batmobile… Little flat black, pop-up guns, smoke screen (o-wait it’s a GM it will smoke on its own) and you need a good mask (to hide your shame).

Hatchbacks YES! We have a MINI S and I still own my first hatchback which was also my first sports car, 1973 240Z 2.4L SOHC with Twin SU side drafts and a 5sp no that’s a usable hatchback!

Cheap tires! You deserve to die of thirst stuck with a blown tire in the middle of No Where for buying $15 tires! My trailer tires cost $70 per and average tire for any of my vehicles is $120 per! Only change one blow-out in 15 years and I average about 40,000 miles a year.

ZR1, Yes! Pushrods Yes! Awesome just sorry it looks like the $35k Vette the 45 year cougars are driving around trying to pick 23 year boys? And this comes from a Vette family (my uncle still has is all original 1954). However I do agree with artsy3 about the GT-R. I would buy the GT-R WAY before a ZR-1. Besides I can’t fit my gun rack in the back window of a Vette? So un-American…

Wagon vs. SUV? Comes down to your needs! Towing a horse trailer with kids and dogs or trying to park your Escalade with 22”s in Starbucks while typing this blog?

iDrive? Exactly what degree does one must have to use this devise? And if it is illegal to talk on the phone or txt while driving then how is it legal to try and operate the Battlestar Galatica with a washing machine spin knob? Should I ask this in German?

Flex? Why o why? it’s just a hearse with aluminum siding isn’t it?
3 Series? Good, but just so not me.

Mitsubishi? My god man have you never owned one of their cars before? I will not even think about that car until I see them on the road with 100K miles on it and not missing 50% interior/exterior, smoking, knocking and just being a disgrace to the Japanese market. No I have no confidence in their cars anymore.

Domestic? Hmm I like my crack imported. Still better quality in fit and feel besides I have enough things rattling in my head and don’t need my Dodge Caliber competing.

Good luck with the bugs…

I really must challenge the mental capacity of people who say that iDrive is too complicated to understand.

Too complicated to operate while driving? ABSOLUTELY.

Too complicated to figure out with a degree? Seriously?!

The G8 (V/6) and the G8 GT (V/8) are both vastly underrated. High performance handling, braking, power, reasonable fuel mileage, etc. for a delivered price that is astoundingly low for all that. Fifty-some-odd years ago, Pontiac's slogan was, "Dollar for Dollar You Can't Beat a Pontiac." Twenty-Five years ago it was, "Pontiac! We Build Excitement!" Today, they have both with this car.

smilez, i stand by what i said. it's just a random thought, not an end-all statement. chill.

compliance, i second the 3 series comment.

and i agree with the fact that domestic quality is good, but not every brand and model are necessarily up to the same level as each other. the dodge caliber and ford focus come to mind. but people still live in the past with much of their thinking, otherwise the G8 and Flex would be selling much better than they are. it's not quality at this point that's flushing the big three away, it's the perception of the brand name.

"Pontiac G8 GT
Dollar for dollar, pound for pound, feature for feature, this is America's best sedan."

This car is absolutely phenomenal! A blast to drive. Solid, sporty, and affordable. Austrailian design and engineering at its best--look out BMW!

You know you want one. Life's short--go for it!!!

I'm chill bra, but if you stand by what you said, then "you" are the reason for road rage, not SUV's.

I do agree that too many people are generalizing domestic quality.
It isn't a all-or-nothing issue. Some makers have stepped it up, while others just don't get it.
We've taken steps, big steps. But we do indeed have a long way to go.

And am I sensing that the majority of everyone here likes the G8?

The idea that the media indoctrinated people into believing American cars weren't as good as foreign cars is just ridiculous. Fact is, foreign cars were better back then. Just because a select few had no problems with their American cars doesn't make me wrong either, so don't leave stupid responses to this comment because I don't care about your uncles '85 Silverado. Americans loved American cars in the golden days, but then the quality slipped and foreign competition grew. Thankfully, now American cars have gotten up to par. But you can't blame Americans for not trusting domestic manufacturers when many went through the years and years of below average vehicles.

"Even your "real world" data proved that Ford Focus, Jeep, and Caravan were all disasters. "

Nonsense.

The Focus may be a dull underachiever but it's reliable transportation which is what most people want.

Many many millions of people have used and abused the Caravan as the family workhorse for decades and it's been the top selling minivan every year since minivans were invented (by the Caravan). No disaster there.

Jeeps may not be a good choice for Camry drivers but they are tough, last forever, define the word character and have the loyalist following of anything short of a Harley.
How is that a disaster?

The BMW 3 series is too big and heavy.
Because of that, I do not find it very appealing, and I am quite a reasonable person.
Oh yeah, and the styling gets more and more questionable with every new generation. I don't like that.

I want the E30 M3 back.

"And finally if we all bought from the Big Three our counrty[sic] wouldn't be in such a big mess."

I guess I'll just have to keep on undermining the US economy...

Dougtheeng,

I guess I left a lot open to interpretation. The reason wagons/hatchbacks make sense is because they're practical, not because they're fun to drive. The "bang" I was referring to was practicality. Buying the cool wagon over the practical wagon isn't bang-for-buck.

mydog52191 writes: "Fact is, foreign cars were better back then."

Back when? You mean in the 80's and 90's when the Taurus was beating Camry and Accord in reliability, but no one would believe it?

You mean the 90's and 00's when the Toyota execs were falsifying reliability reports to the point that the Japanese government eventually sent them to prison?

When exactly is back then?

"You mean in the 80's and 90's when the Taurus was beating Camry and Accord in reliability, but no one would believe it?"

Are you for real?

Everyone I knew with a Taurus in the 90's suffered both engine and transmission failures.

I remember my neighbour buying a loaded 95 taurus when he retired. In the 6 years he had it, there was never a time when there wasn't something broken on that car. The transmission was replaced 3 times and the engine once. He had been a Ford guy for life, right back to his Ford galaxy in the 60's but now he drive a Honda Accord.

That's how bad the Taurus was.

It might have been a good car in the 80's but cost cutting in the 90's made it a complete piece of crap.

Yea, I'm for real. I'm having a hard time finding any kind of references (pro or con) right now, but I distinctly remember the Taurus repeatedly beating the Camry and Accord in the 90's. That's one of the reasons (along with TCO) it became so popular in fleets.

"The 3 series has been overrated for a very long time. Overpriced to boot. It may be a good car, but it's expensive and only bought buy people who want to say they have a BMW."

No! BMW 325's are bought by people who want to say they have a BMW. The cheapest, most base of any german maker are the "I own a german car" model. Just like people who bought that hideous Mercedes Benz C230 coupe/hatchback thing, or people who buy a Boxter just so they can say they have a Porsche. They're the Mustang V6 of Germany.

A larger majority of M-car owners and people who buy BMW's in general are massive poseurs and have no clue of the motorsports dynasty that BMW has, but there are the few of us who buy the damn things because we like straight sixes and an FR layout, something we can't get from the other two anymore.

BeefSupreme get behind the wheel of a 325i and tell me that it's a bad car. I agree with you on the C230 coupe and the Boxter but I can't have you ripping on the 3.

And to all of you that think A4's are better than 3's, get a clue. The BMW 3 is and has been the benchmark sports sedan since its creation.

I think there are more "ball bearing heads" where I live in N California. We buy Hondas that have multiple transmission problems, rattle, Dvd players that skip, abismal dealer service departments that are still living in the 80's, and arrorant sales people staffing them. We buy Toyotas that blow engines due to sludge. But Toyota still denies any wrong doing (its called a RECALL! NOT a service bulliten, stupid!) We also keep on buying from these overrated mishaps do to the fact we are all dope smoking idiots. I'm moving to Detroit. After years of bashing them for reasons unknown (except that it was the thing to do), I'm re-thinking my devotion to only imports. Detroit will be getting my money next time. You're right on about Nissan though. Last one out of the Nissan design studio, turn the lights "on"

Here's one for the "domestic reliability (and oxymoron)" department: Anybody owned a GM product with the 3.1 six? They made MILLIONS of Luminas Gran pixs, etc with them and for YEARS left a faulty torque converter solenoid lock up in them knowing they go bad and cause the car to stall dangerously in traffic. The interior of my old 91 Lumina fell apart in record time. What a junker.

How about the Chrysler automatic transmissions that were good for about 30K before they burned up? Anyone owned an Intrepid -- or better yet had a Dodge minivan with the A/C compressor that went before 100,000?

You don't hear of these things with Japanese cars. Cry me a river on the sludge problem - most of those Toyotas had 150K + before it was an issue.

The domestics have adecades long littany of knowingly putting out junk and turning a blind eye to customers. How about the early 70s Vega with aluminum heads and steel pistons that started burning oil after a year? GM diesels in the 80s? Come on folks, get real.

"I guess that excludes the Saturn Aura..."

Do you know what "reliability" means? How many times did the Aura fail to start? How many times were drivers stranded? How many times was it towed? The Fit was towed more times than the Aura. A steering rack noise is an annoyance (that should be fixed) but not a reliability problem.

"You don't hear of these things with Japanese cars. Cry me a river on the sludge problem - most of those Toyotas had 150K + before it was an issue.

The domestics have adecades long littany of knowingly putting out junk and turning a blind eye to customers. How about the early 70s Vega with aluminum heads and steel pistons that started burning oil after a year? GM diesels in the 80s? Come on folks, get real."

why dont you get real and stop talking about cars that are 30 years old. Some of the problems you are talking about occurred before I was born. That stuff is irrelevant now. Hyundai, MB and the domestics have shown that quality can improve dramatically in as little as 10 years. What happened in the 70s is irrelevant and you are delusional if you think import cars havent had problems with transmissions. And lets not even get into rust problems. Imports typically cost more to purchase, more to finance, more to maintain and more to repair. You better hope you dont have any problems because you are going to be taken to the cleaners when you need a significant repair. Also, if the domestics are so committed to ignoring quality why to they offer better warranty protection than Toyota and Honda?

"What happened in the 70s is irrelevant"

Even that's overstated. In the 70's the Japanese 4cyls did run substantially better than the domestic 4cyls. However, the domestic V8s ran better than the Japanese 4cyls. This favored the Japanese when the oil crisis hit hard. They got all the positive attention, never mind that they were unsafe and rusted within two years (for those in the snowbelt).

The problem has long been that the media focuses on the strengths of the imports and the weaknesses of the domestics, ignoring the strengths of the domestics and the weaknesses of the imports.

I am so sick of all the comments sections deteriorating into the domestics vs imports argument

On the three series. I am sure it handles great, but my first thought when I sat down in my brother in laws new 3 last year was "wow, this is no bigger than my nissan sentra" I can't see spending 50K and still having no leg room in the back seat.

If it is a sports car, I get it. If it is a sedan, I don't. To each his own. To the fella who said it's too big I say "please explain"

BTW, I want a G8 GT, as soon as they offer it with a 6M (without springing for the GXP) I will have one. Sporty and practical for around 30K.

First you say:

". But if you're not buying a Ford Flex or a Buick Enclave or a Pontiac G8 or a Cadillac CTS or a Ford Edge, etc. because you think it's going to fall apart and spend most of its days at the dealership service department, you're living in the past. And the Inside Line Long-Term Test blog is packed with real-world data to support this."

Then you say:

"If you find it unappealing, you probably live and work in Detroit or have ball bearings for brains. Wait a minute, that's the same thing. Forget it."

So you are saying that the reader should not worry about the quality of American cars but the people that are working for the plants and engineering them have brains made of nuts and bolts. Amazing.

I wish inside line would stop with this bullshit mechanic column who writes in his own blood (so silly) and stop trying to be funny. This hero needs a better editor or too at least read his work before posting it. No I am not a hater, I just love this website but the mechanic is just so pretentious and dying for an audience. Go work for motor trend.

"I am so sick of all the comments sections deteriorating into the domestics vs imports argument"

This usually comes about because a significant # of posters here get irate if the Mechanic or anyone else has the nerve to suggest American cars may have achieved parity with Almighty Japanese cars. When the ignorance is revealed and the horror stories from 1975 are brought out for the umpteenth time the record has to be set straight.

"The problem has long been that the media focuses on the strengths of the imports and the weaknesses of the domestics, ignoring the strengths of the domestics and the weaknesses of the imports."

You are 100% on point. Let a domestic car not have a telescoping wheel and they will make that grounds for skipping over the car. When the corolla or Pilot (last gen) or Odyssey or 370Z lacks one no one gives a damn.

It also happens because of domestic fans that have a giant chip on their shoulders and cannot accept criticism without launching into a triad of how it's all a conspiracy.

BTW ... I have no allegence to any automaker. I've owned over a dozen cars (and trucks) and have never bought the same make twice in a row. The are no carmakers from my country so everything is a foreign car.

Do yourselves all a favour, test drive lots of cars and buy the one you like the best. Forget about brand or national loyalty.

For that much money you deserve to have the ride that suits you best.

Domestic vs. Import 101

1) 2010 Mustang 4.6 V8 has 315hp. where as the 370Z, G37 V6 puts out 332hp. Talk about American technology.

2) American's have used rebadged import (Japanese) cars for years, I wonder why? (Better cars)

3) I would choose a G37 any day over a Pontiac G8. Why would you buy a car from a company that may file for bankruptcy??

3) Pushrods- Underrated for a reason. Why is it that only the companies filing for bailout money use them (besides the Bently 6.75 V8)?

4) ZR1 vs. GT-R. GT-R hands down of course. Way better technology, unique styling, longer warranty, better quality, and instant classic. ZR1 is a great car but for $100,000? Put a Vortech supercharger on a stock corvette and you'll get the same thrill.

"I am so sick of all the comments sections deteriorating into the domestics vs imports argument"

It happens because regardless of the vehicle being discussed, we are reminded that there is a GM or Honda (depending on the person arguing) vehicle that is faster, cheaper and better all around. And since there is an immense amount of brand loyalty, particularly from those who have the brand in their screen names, lol, debate ensues. Nothing wrong with a little debate.

"It also happens because of domestic fans that have a giant chip on their shoulders and cannot accept criticism without launching into a triad of how it's all a conspiracy."

Dont be stupid. There is no comparison between the two camps. How often do you read "domestic fans" comments in which they say imports are cheap pieces of unreliable garbage and anyone who buys one is some sort of unsavvy pro-Japan moron? Never. Most of the so called "domestic fans" merely say that most cars are on the same level when it comes to quality and performance. They dont say Japanese cars such or anything similar. One side is arguing parity while the other side is saying no intelligent person would ever consider owning a "clearly" inferior product from a US branded manufacturer. Big difference.

"American's have used rebadged import (Japanese) cars for years, I wonder why? (Better cars)"

They have? give a few examples. You are a typical import fanboy. Totally ill informed and borderline delusional. Pretty much everything you listed makes little sense or is build on half truths. BTW, compare the hp of GM's 5.3L PUSHROD, 2 valve V8 to Nissans 5.6L DOHC V8. DOHC V8s should always have more specific output than 2/valve OHV engines. One reason the Mustang has less hp than the Z is that its a 2 valve engine. The results speak for themselves however because the heavier Mustang is about as fast as the Z.

Pushrods should definitely be discontinued because they are slowing up the ZR1 and CTS-V big time. Same for 300 SRT-8 and the rest of the SRT vehicles. Try coming up with some legitimate engineering based criticisms of pushrods instead of making stupid comments relating them to government aid. Ford has been using OHC engines for quite some time but until recently most experts would have given GM the nod in terms of powertrains even though GM continues to use OHV engines heavily. There is no comparison between the top GM truck engines and Ford's
"high tech" 2 valve Triton engine.

doug,

I dont know brand loyalty being a huge factor. For many people (primarily domestic bashers) the location of the manufacturer's headquarters is all that matters. Most import fanatics will take ANY import over a domestic, the brand doesnt matter too much.

"Domestic vs. Import 101"

Freshman level?

"1) 2010 Mustang 4.6 V8 has 315hp. where as the 370Z, G37 V6 puts out 332hp. Talk about American technology."

It's not about technology. It's about cost vs reliability vs performance. In that respect the Ford 4.6L is a logical choice. Ford is more than capable of producing small engines with lots of power (see their 340hp, 340ftlb, 3.5L), but they've some good reasons for going with the 4.6L

"2) American's have used rebadged import (Japanese) cars for years, I wonder why? (Better cars)"

Yup, like the Chevy Aveo. Compare that to a Cobalt and tell me which is a better vehicle.

"3) I would choose a G37 any day over a Pontiac G8. Why would you buy a car from a company that may file for bankruptcy??"

Contrary to popular belief, bankruptcy doesn't mean they're going out of business or won't be able to support their customers. It allows them to rework issues with their creditors.

I'm just glad that nobody's talking about THE MECHANIC anymore. Oh crap, just brought him up again...my bad.

I think its all fair that you guys think that the 3-series is overated but you know what, there is someting about the 3-series that is very underated and that is the 328i wagon, because no one would ever associate a wagon with sporty.

Rebuttal...Dodge Magnum R/T.
Awesome car that I'm pissed they got rid of.

Rebuttal...Dodge Magnum R/T.
Awesome American car that I'm pissed they got rid of.

And also the Audi S4 Avant. Regardless of what people think about the looks, it's definitely on the sporty side. Of course we'll probably never see it again in the states.

I'm not disagreeing on the 328i, just adding my choices.

I completely agree with the failure of the Cadillac V-Series- the STS-V and XLR-V were automotive equivalents to bringing a knife to a gunfight.

I would also add:

Mercedes E63 AMG Wagon- Here is your underrated wagon.

Honda Pilot redesign- Honda royally messed up this one. What were they thinking?

"America's best sedan" (the Pontiac G8)is made in Australia.

"Best all-around car on the market today. A marvel of engineering. If you find it unappealing, you probably live and work in Detroit or have ball bearings for brains. Wait a minute, that's the same thing. Forget it."

I don't work for the Big 3 nor do I live in the D, but really with that comment? You've not only fed a stereotype, you've essentially kicked dirt in the face of folks that are already down and out. Way to go.....

As far as the 3 is concerned, it is far from underrated. If anything in that class is underrated it's called the G37. It offers up damn near the same performance and driving experience, without breaking the bank. For crying out loud an optioned 335i sedan will run you damn near 60K vs the 45K of a loaded G37 S.

Don't get me wrong I'd drive a 3 in a heartbeat but the pricing on these things is totally out of whack, none of which harkens to an underrated vehicle.

"I completely agree with the failure of the Cadillac V-Series- the STS-V and XLR-V were automotive equivalents to bringing a knife to a gunfight. "

How the CTS-V a "knife"? 550hp and a faster Ring time than the M5 qualifies as a knife in a gunfight? If the CTS-V is a knife what do you call the M5 and E63? Niether is going to beat the CTS-V at the track. In a recent C&D issue the M3 coudlnt even beat the CTS-V at the track.

1487,

I never said the CTS-V was a failure. In fact, I consider the 2009 to be a huge step in the right direction for GM, just like the ZR-1.

I consider Cadillac's past work on its V-Series to be an overall failure. The STS-V and XLR-V are substandard to the competition, that is why I specifically mentioned them and not the CTS-V.

And in response to your question about what I call the M5 and E63...I think they are absolutely amazing cars.

tds27,
Careful now, you are arguing with an expert. He's read at least one or two magazine articles about every car he's talking about.

The hate on the 3-Series is quite funny at best. Even the poster who said people who buy the 325i only want to say they have a BMW was dissing an excellent car (if properly equipped).
Besides, why buy new? I got my 05 325i, 5-speed w/sport package for 20K in early 08. It had 30K miles and plenty of warranty left and believe me, it's not something I bought just because I want to say I have a BMW. I bought and drive this car because it's fun. I drive just to drive, damn the gas prices. That will never change. And when I get my M3, I'm sure some people will call me a poseur, but I'll probably be on my way to a curvy road to enjoy the car and won't hear you.
Nowadays, the definitions have changed for me. Whereas Bimmer used to mean all things BMW, today it's Bimmer -- manual tranny, sport package or M-car; and Beemer -- automatic, non-sport, non-M. The car for the poseurs.
And to the other poster with the 240Z -- they had 4-speeds, not 5.

sgude,
Come on now, you know a V6 FWD domestic sedan would be just as good...;)
Seriously, I bought my first Bimmer back in 1983, when a sizable percentage of people didn't know what a BMW was- and most of those who did thought that BMW stood for "British Motor Works". In those days GM was pushing the Chevrolet Celebrity Eurosport[sic], the Pontiac 6000E and the Cadillac Cimmaron as worthy competitors to European sports sedans. The more things change...

I HATE not having the edit function...
Anyway, I was going to add that the Corvette, CTS, G8, and Sky/Solstice are truly outstanding enthusiast cars, but the rest of the GM passenger car line is pretty uninspiring. That said, if GM would take the turbo I4 from the Cobalt and put it in the Astra they would have a solid winner in the hot hatch sgment. And, since the Astra isn't assembled at a UAW plant, I'd strongly consider buying one.

Ford ruined the Jaguar brand. The Corvette ZR1 is really under appreciated, but I'll still rather have a GT-R. The lancer is a better performing car than the other three. Mazda 3's new styling is really ugly. Did they use three year olds to design it? Toyota quality has gone down within the last year. They're recalling 1.4 million vehicles. Toyota is on par with quality to USDM vehicles.

As the proud owner of an 04 Jetta wagon and former owner of an 04 Mitsubishi Lancer Sportback and 01 Ford Focus ZX3 Hatchback, this list really nails it. Wagons and hatchbacks have to be the most under-appreciated cars on US roads.

I've owned sedans,coupes,wagons and hatchbacks. Nothing beats the versatility of a hatchback car. I was down on them until I bought my Focus. Now, I don't think I can go back to not having one hatch or wagon in the driveway.

Pickings are slim though. It's either another VW, a used 3 series, Volvo,Sabb,etc. wagon or the closest new thing currently is a Mazda 5.

Not enough emphasis is put on tires. Buy GOOD tires. Buy close to what your car came with, if not better. BUY 4 DEDICATED SNOW TIRES for those of you in snowy climes, the difference in performance is incredible. But it's almost preaching to the choir here. Your tires are the ONLY thing connecting you to the road. Don't skimp!

The BMW 3 series is an excellent car. If you have never driven a German car, you cannot appreciate the feel of driving one. As close as the competition gets, there is still no comparison to the all around feel of the 3 series.

I'm not totally against Idrive, but I prefer normal switches for HVAC and entertainment.

As for the quality and domestics vs imports, it's a toss-up. The domestics have gotten better and the others have declined. As mentioned, it's a perception thing. Imports aren't as great and the domestics aren't as bad as Joe Carbuyer thinks. The main thing is to MAINTAIN your car. You MAINTAIN so that you do not have to REPAIR. People who feel that $100 for a transmission fluid change is too much are asking for early transmission failure. $30 for an oil change?

For the poster who said "cars and their problems from thirty years ago are irrelevant". Yes it's irrelevant, but your average,uninformed car buyer, doesn't know that. All they remember is their 86 Dodge Caravan with engine problems. They remember their Olds Diesel. They remember their Ford Tempo. They remember their 88-94 Lincoln Continental. People have a long memory with their cars. Some people still think a Pontiac and a Chevrolet are two TOTALLY different brands. It's ignorance, but to many, a car is an appliance, a way to get from A to B, not a passion-inducing choice like it is for us enthusiasts.