2012 Toyota Camry SE: Feels More Expensive Than it is

The old Camry was the car of choice for person #2. If you only knew how Toyota was a few decades ago, you'd just assume the phoned-in Camry was the best and everything else was necessarily worse because, well, that's just how it probably was.

"At $23,760, our 2012 Camry SE is money well spent. "

Feels more expensive than it is? It's about $5000 more expensive than you think it is.

You're evaluating a $28,658, as if it's a $23,760 car. Is $28,658 money well spent? That's a heck of a lot for a 4-cyl mid-sized sedan.

Take a look at my post when you bought the car:
http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2011/12/2012-toyota-camry-se-introduction.html#comments
so I can say "I told you so".

2 types of people for #3 (another generalization of course):

- people want to just get from point A to B and don't care too much how it looks as long as it blends in and is reliable
- car enthusiast who wants great handling, seats, fit and finish and good looks (subjective of course), cutting edge features

I hope it's not industry wide trend like the recent Passat to make more bland boring cars. Corolla is still selling amazingly well but for car enthusiasts this is what killes the fun if you want more than just getting from point A to B.

BTW some stats from autonews: average age of Camry dropped from 60 to 52 (due to SE average age of 45). That's still not quite what Toyota wants but with these sales they're fine for few more years (until age again goes up).

@brn - Magrath's post highlights features standard at that price, and is not at all misleading. At under 24K, the Camry SE 4 includes a lot of content in a well executed package, which I think is the point that he was making. The power moonroof, Entune/NAV, etc, are all icing, and are not baked in to Magrath's eval here.

I don't see how anyone can look at that photo above and say that the Camry SE is "an ugly and disjointed design." Ugly is a very strong word to use on a car that, for many, may look average or bland. But, ugly it is not.

And don't forget, the previous Camry was the highest selling midsize car. Why would Toyota radically change the styling? They put the development money into making a better car.

For the same $23k you can get the classier styled, faster, more powerful and just as fuel efficient Sonata SE with dual exhaust and expensively styled 18 in rims.

alpha01, the quote says "our" Camry. He's referring the the Camry in the long term fleet, so he's referring to a $28,658 car. To say that he's not taking all the features into account is inaccurate. The features are there while he's evaluating.

This is the formula that worked so well for Toyota back in the 90's. The 1992 redesigned Camry was successful because, IMO, it looked like and felt like it's more expensive corporate cousins from Lexus but for less money. The switch gear and materials were first rate just like Lexus but without the leather, wood, features and technology. But the dash, switches and everything you touched felt like high quality materials. The generations that followed got worst by having cheap interiors that offered nothing but hard plastics. The same for Honda and their products. Maybe they are going back to what worked. A 1994 Camry and Accord have a much higher quality interior than their current versions. I've said it once and I'll say it again. Hyundai new found success is not some new philosophy but a very old one. They are using the formula that Toyota and Honda (especially Honda) used but have strayed from. Offer the best quality you can with great reliablity and dependabilty for a price lower than what someone expects to pay. Camrys and Accords didn't offer the most features or newest technology and they certainly didn't have powerful engines but they had rock solid constuction and went on forever with little maintenance. It has taken many years for Hyundai to get people to trust in their products reliability but patience and resolve is paying off for them now.

1. Who leans on a car thinking people will notice them? Seriously? It's a car.
2. Screw a dealer? Um... dealers make their money on finance, used cars and repairs. New cars, like drug dealing, just lure you into the the relationship. They're not your friends and they will take advantage of you in an instant. $500-2500 profit is a ridiculous sum for doing nothing beyond having a high school educated guy in a tie take you for a test drive.

I would steer someone toward a Sonata, Fusion, Altima, Accord if they just want a basic, big, reliable car and demand it's new; really these come down to do you like Vanilla Bean, French Vanilla, Vanilla, etc. ? Nothing wrong with that. But I'd counsel don't buy from the sales guy, find the car you like, go home, find out what cash back is out there and hit the Internet. Within a day or two you'll have a car for a $100-200 over invoice (assuming no trunk money) and you didn't have to deal with what the pimply faced kid at Best Buy all-grown-up. It should all be handled and ready before you ever step into the dealership to get the car. And if a dealership doesn't give you a quick price on email, move on. If they demand a phone call, they're not listening.

@brn - My point is that the features that Magrath lists, are noted as standard, meaning that EVERY Camry SE has those feature. You'll note that his list does not include the optional equipment. Such optional features may be present in this car, definitely true, but I believe the case is being made for the standard level of equipment.

alpha01, I think we understand where each other is coming from. I get what you're saying and generally agree. I just think, well I already went there. :)

blueguydotcom: "dealers make their money on finance, used cars and repairs"

That used to be true. Dealers don't make much on the back end (repairs) anymore. In the olden days, warranty work was the cash cow. Cars are too reliable and there's not much warranty work (except maybe for VW and Nissan).

The big money is still in used and financing.

Most of these features are standard on most cars and especially for 24K. E.g. do you pay extra for this on competitors base models: 60/40 split, cruise control, power door locks, fog lights?
The SE is a more expensive Camry model so I'd expect it to have it a few extra's.

So how does this compare to the Kia Optima Turbo? Similar price and also lots of features.

@brn - Word. :)

@lucien4 - the Edmunds.com IL Optima SX Turbo is two grand more ($30,840) than this Camry, which is about exactly the price this Camry would be if it was optioned with the only other option Edmunds didn't choose - the V6.

I have a hard time seeing the value for the price quoted.

In March 2008, I bought a brand new Subaru Legacy GT for $24,500 (yes, this is discounted - I understand that).

Add on to your list AWD, 4-level heated seats, perforated leather seating, far more power (243hp/241tq)....

And otherwise about the same for options :)

At that time, I felt that was a good value. The point over the years is to gain more for less...

The Subaru price was 4 years ago. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the same car if it were available in 2012, would be about $28,000 (at least)? What type of real MPG does the 2008 Subaru achieve? Regular gas or high octane? How many airbags? Bluetooth, USB, and AUX input standard? In 2012 dollars, the I4 Camry SE is a pretty decent value.
With that, I really like that vintage Legacy, especially in wagon form and manual shifter. That was a great choice in 2008.

Would love to see future blog posts regarding this Camry vs the Optima vs the recently departed Sonata vs the very long departed (but unchanged) Accord and Altima. Especially how the Camry SE vs Optima vs Altima (ostensibly, the 3 sportier-tuned cars) stack up as driver's cars.

Seems like LTRTB has owned everything I'd possibly consider in this class- just need more direct comparison!

The base SE price of $23,760 excludes Toyota's processing and handling fee of $760, and this amount is even higher in some select states. So with out additional options, and prior to taxes, surcharges, local dealer fees , etc the real base price of the 2012 SE is $ 24,520. Final purchase, in most states, if you base a transaction on sticker price, is close to $28,000 after taxes and fees. I understand that all other vehicles by other manufacturers are subject to these same taxes, tags and other fees, but it is best to disclose the true cost of said bargain. Individuals frequently boast of the 24,000 car that they just bought for $28,000-- after being wrung out by the various commissioned individuals of a new car dealer ( tint , protectant, extended warranty, finance, insurance). Even in the negotiation stage, calculate the taxes, tags, escalation in your insurance, and doc prep fee to keep perspective on the "bargain" that they are packaging for you.

prof, that's simply untrue on multiple levels.

The base SE lists $23,000 and destination is $760. Yes most states will hit you with close to two grand in taxes and fees, yes some dealers will charge you $400 for scotchguard if you let them, yes some people are even dumb enough to pay MSRP, even a perfect storm of all three isn't going to make this $28,000.

The dealership right down the street posts no haggle pricing on the window of every car on the lot. They have over 100 Camrys in stock and 4 cylinder SEs are about $900 under invoice before taxes.

This is a fairly high tax state and you, I or, anyone else could drive a base SE off that lot tomorrow for under $23,000. That's a bargain right up there with the Sonata.

Mike, I liked the write-up and more-or-less agree with your conclusion. Your headline photo shows the car to be better looking than the previous generation it replaced, IMHO. It no longer has a bloated and kinda melted plastic, undefined syling of the last ones. And, while I do agree like some who say that this continues the stying of the Corolla only in a larger size, this still seems more pleasing to the eye.

What I've just realized is that considering I see Camrys on the road and in parking lots everywhere, I can't recall every driving or even riding in one. Of any previous generation. Ever. Makes me wonder how many others like me are totally unfamiliar with this top selling sedan. Of course, a lot of people in this part of the country - not all that far from Detroit - still have a greater loyalty to the Big3 that those on either coast.

"At $23,760, our 2012 Camry SE is money well spent. "

But yet you paid $26,397 for yours and it had a sticker over $28k.

I didn't mean the Kia Turbo model (that's 274 hp versus SE 178 hp). Rather the EX (which has more features like pano roof, cooled seats, ...).

I don't see much of a styling change really. The only way I can tell is from front and back slightly. But I think most couldn't tell which generation it is. That is sad (well unles you're the other type and just want a good car getting from point A to B).

I had previous gen Camry as a rental car and was shocked how much it felt like a boat. Way too heavy. And that was not how I remembered previous gen Camry's. This generation seems they improved it but it's still big car...

How about some track # for this car? I'd expect it to be middle of the road at best.

I stand by my first cvomment. Ugly may be a strong word. The Honda Crosstour is ughly. But this design looks to much like a Corolla and is not appealing to me. Check out the new 2013 Ford Fusion for exciting desgn and the Sonata. They show the way. BTW, I would not be in the market for one any way, I want more than an appliance for my car.

lucien4 wrote: "How about some track # for this car? I'd exect it to be middle of the road at best."

IL's track test of an LE I4 with federal emissions:
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2011/10/il-track-tested-2012-toyota-camry-le.html

IL's track test of the SE I4 with California emissions:
http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2012/01/2012-toyota-camry-se-track-tested.html

All of the #'s are up there with (and in some cases surpass) the best of the I4 midsize class.

"lexuslvr says:
09:21 AM, 01/29/12
For the same $23k you can get the classier styled, faster, more powerful and just as fuel efficient Sonata SE with dual exhaust and expensively styled 18 in rims."

In the real world it's not any faster so the fact that peak horsepower is slightly higher is pretty meaningless. Even the last generation Camry would win in a 0-60 battle. The Sonata is a paper tiger here, just looks better on paper.