2011 Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt: April "Fuel" Economy Update

So you kindly excluded the Leaf's "what if" test mpg. Good, but why did you include the 800 mile trip of the Volt to San Francisco? Because is a road trip you will often make? How often does the average LA resident makes a road trip to Los Angeles? I don't know, but my guess is that not to often, at least not enough to compute in a car's stats.

zoolander1 made a good point

@zoolander1: Probably because the "occasional" long distance use is what the Volt's marketing folks focused on from the get go. "Electric car" with no compromises.

Unfortunately it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that someone with the disposable income to afford a Volt will probably have another car, in which case, for the daily commute and shopping, entertainment, etc - the Leaf has sufficient range for most.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of financial sense to drop that much dough to save gas money.

I politely reject zoolander1's point on the grounds (as acbayard mentioned) that being able to extend range via gasoline is indeed one of the Volt's selling points.

One long trip included in a three month chart is actually a very useful thing to see on there, as without it we wouldnt know what the Volt's cost effectiveness would be in that very real-world scenario.

You'd have grounds to complain if they were to conject that the Leaf's foray on the test track should be included in it's numbers (which would favorably skew its cost-per-mile numbers). As it stands, I think that both charts are very well presented with the most realistic numbers possible.

Thanks Dan for the very well put together charts and data! This blog deserves a lot of exposure, as it answers a lot of questions people will have about these vehicles as we move forward.

@acbayard - But the entire point of the Volt is that you don't need the second vehicle. You don't need to buy, house, insure, or maintain a second vehicle.

I think the comparison to make is what the Volt cost to operate on the SF trip compared to renting a comparable compact sedan; i.e. Cruze, Focus, or Elantra. The comparison needs to spell out all factors: rental cost, gas cost, and any incidentals like costs & added time, if any, for picking up & dropping off the rental.

My guess is that despite the ICE-only car's higher highway MPG once you factor in the daily rental cost the second car becomes significantly more expensive. End result: If you can afford & don't mind the Volt's high initial price it still makes a better all-purpose compact sedan v. the two-car approach.

the longer and longer these vehicles are on the road, at dealers, and in various car magazine and blog's test fleets, the less and less sense they make to me for everyday people.

It's an interesting read, but I see why some people are getting fluffed. The problem is that these vehicles have some strong similarities, but some very key differences. The article shouldn't really be read as a comparison. It's more like "here are the stats from two vehicles that don't fit into our normal ICE model".

fushigi, that's assuming the highway mpg of the rental really does beat the Volt. I don't know why IL is getting such crappy mpg. The EPA rating for it is 35/40/37, which isn't bad at all.

@fushigi: I would like to see the statistics on household car ownership for people making over $100,000 a year. Most people I know who are in that income range, either have one car per adult, or have no cars because they're in the city - I don't think we'll be seeing anyone scrapping their old cars and using the Volt as their exclusive vehicle.

Sidenote: if we're going to talk "real world" then I think it's high-time someone looked into roadside assistance policies for dead electrics.

@zoolander1
Oldman's 800 mile round trip drive in the Chevy Volt to San Francisco is a real world test that demonstrates the Volt's ability to defeat "range anxiety". Try doing that in the Nissan Leaf. Oh, and bring a 400 mile extension cord.

InsideLine readers overwhelmingly picked the Nissan Leaf in an InsideLine poll as the car for Riswick to drive to Las Vegas for a bachelor party. He was not happy with that pick!

We're a fun bunch of InsideLine readers.

Cost/mile for the Volt vs. Cost/mile for the Prius... 'Nuff said.

The Volt only makes sense if you only use the electric range with "occational" (like once or twice of a lifetime...) long trips. But if that's the case why not get the Leaf which gives you double the range per charge and just rent a car (like a Prius...) for long trips.

"Revolutionary" technology? I think not.

I think it comes down to the real reason you would buy one of these cars. If it's to save money then neither is a good idea.

If it's to give the finger to the oil companies then the Leaf is better.

If it's because you like the latest technology the Volt is best.

If it's to make an Eco statement then it would be a tie IMHO.

To me the only reason to buy either car would be the novelty of driving on electricity. The Leaf will get me to work and back on a charge while the Volt will not. Volt wins.

Damm no edit feature. I met to say Leaf wins. Need more coffee.

@acbayard, you are assuming that there are no single adults in this world, or that all the single adults will choose to have multiple vehicles. If I were living alone (which I am not at the moment), a Volt is a possible vehicle; the Leaf is not.

@nelsonlu: I'm not saying they don't exist - they exist, just like people with no arms and no legs but want to drive a car. I just don't see the mass market appeal necessary to make the Volt profitable. How many young people making $100k will get a Volt? vs a luxury sedan? There is just something very contradictory about choosing to spend $40k to spend on a car, and then picking the one that saves you gasoline.

"If it's to make an Eco statement then it would be a tie IMHO."

Really? A gas burning hybrid is on par with an all electric when it comes to making an eco-statement? You have the bar set pretty low or you are buying into GM's hype, or both. This is why the comparisons have to stop because there isn't any comparison, unless you do not use the Volt's long range capability.

The one thing that always gets overlooked in these discussions about running costs is where the electricity comes from. It's fine to say that the Leaf isn't as cost effective as some hybrids in places where electricity is expensive, but what if a person is already supplementing their electricity supply with solar panels, etc? It seems like early adopters of those green technologies would be pretty excited about getting their hands on a Leaf since electricity is something a they could conceivably make themselves, unlike gasoline.

jukiemcjuke

LOL, me buying into GM's hype? I hope 1487 reads your post, he'll get a kick out of it.

I've alway been a big critic of the Volt. I think it's too expensive, too complicated and overrated.

However from an Eco point of view it has huge marketing appeal. It shows to the world that the driver has chosen a car that is eco friendly but still practical enough to be an alternative to an all gas car and upscale enough not to feel like an economy car.

True enviromentists wouldn't buy that but they won't buy Leafs either. They either bike or take public transit. There are a lot of extreme eco types (polite terms inserted) in British Columbia and I have never met one yet that could afford one anyhow.

@acbayard:

First, you don't spend $40K (or $41K) on a Volt; you spend $33.5K on a Volt. The continued (and I'm now convinced, intentional) refusal to acknowledge the $7.5K tax credit on the Volt by its detractors irks me, I'll say. It makes the comparison an unfair one since it incorrectly puts the Volt in the same price range as, say, the IS. The $7.5K difference is major.

Second, for many people it would make perfect sense *because the Volt is a fairly nice car*. It's not a stripped down econobox (or econohatch, if one objects to using "box" to describe a hatchback). When you look at it as a car rather than just an environmental statement, it's a premium compact that is also highly efficient. (Similarly, the Leaf is also a premium compact that is even more efficient but obviously has the major limitation of a 100-mile range.)

The way I look at it is this: when I got my fully loaded Fusion Hybrid in 2009, I paid $34K for it immediately but I spent $32K on it because of a $1,900 tax credit. It was not the most efficient car out there; the Prius was, and soon thereafter the Insight would take over second place. But the Prius was not anywhere as nice as a Fusion Hybrid, and the Insight certainly doesn't belong anywhere in that discussion. With a fairly decent paying job and a long commute that included a high, windy mountain pass, what I was looking for were, in order of qualifying/disqualifying criteria:

1. Safety.
2. Fuel efficiency.
3. Comfort.

The Fusion Hybrid fits all of these criteria. If the Fusion Hybrid (and its main direct competitors at that time, the Camry Hybrid and the Altima Hybrid, both of which I looked at intensively as well -- I took a look at the mild Malibu Hybrid and disqualified it immediately based on the lack of options) did not exist, I would have considered, but probably not gone with a Prius. The possibilities that I would have considered would have included both non-luxury and luxury mid-size cars that I considered the most comfortable. That would have included the Camry, the Fusion, and the Malibu among the non-luxury brands and the BMW 5-series, the CTS, and the MKZ, probably. (I considered Lexus overpriced and probably wouldn't have considered the ES, but I might have.) I hardly think that I am in a demographic that is unique, and I think that the idea that everyone who wants a fuel-efficient car would do so by sacrificing all "niceness" is delusional. (Indeed, neither GM nor Nissan bought into that delusion, as they made the Volt and the Leaf fairly nice cars, as I said.)

And that brings us back to the Volt and the Leaf. The idea that anyone who would consider both of them would or should definitely go for the Leaf is not realistic; the Leaf's range issues makes it not a realistic car for a much larger group of the population than the Volt. The Volt is still not going to be ideal for everyone; had it been on the market at the time I was shopping for my Fusion Hybrid, I would have seriously considered it, but probably ultimately still bought a Fusion Hybrid. But had my commute been shorter, I would have considered it even more seriously. It's not quite as nice or comfortable as a Fusion Hybrid, but it uses substantially less fuel and has more usable power.

To conclude: the Volt doesn't compete with econoboxes. It, in effect, competes with the high-end non-luxury and low-end luxury cars, and in that comparison it looks pretty good because in that range, people will still care about gas prices. If they see not only an economic but also an environmental incentive in getting the Volt, it will look *very* attractive assuming that the Volt fits within their needs. The Leaf doesn't realistically compete there because of its limitations. That doesn't make the Leaf a bad car, but it's simply not going to be competitive with the Volt for as many potential car shoppers.

(I misremembered the tax credit I got on the Fusion; it was $1,700, not $1,900; still, the point stands; ignoring the tax credit when evaluating whether a car makes sense is simply wrong.)

"still, the point stands; ignoring the tax credit when evaluating whether a car makes sense is simply wrong"

Unless of course you don't get the tax credit. We don't thus the cars must stand on their own merit and be judged by their real prices.

Which is why (IMHO when it come to spending real money) the top three cars in this class are the Fit, Mazda2 and Fiat 500.

@firstwagon: why won't you get the tax credit?

But firstwagon, in any case, in an argument here on whether the Volt and the Leaf make sense *for the public*, "*I* won't get the tax credit" is not a good argument at all. It would be like saying, "But the people who are allergic to leather won't want the leather seats in the Volt!"

Incidentally, when I was looking at comparisons in writing my responses to firstwagon, I found something that ended up having no relations to what I was responding to firstwagon about: the Smart ED, despite being far, far smaller than the Volt and thus presumably far lighter, got a 94 city/79 highway/87 combined equivalency rating compared to the Volt's 95/90/93. This Smart ain't smart. (Not that you'd be able to convince many men to pay for this or any other ED, anyway.)

Well, then let's talk about how the Volt makes sense "for the public"...

So with the Volt, is GM trying to provide the masses with an affordable fuel efficient vehicle or just a niche hybrid with the statement like "Hey, look at me, I made something that's more interesting than the Prius!!!"

louiswei, I don't know, but what I do think is that GM made a *better car than the Prius*. Whether it's worth the price differential will depend on the driver's needs and usage pattern.

"nelsonlu says:

08:14 PM, 05/ 7/11

@firstwagon: why won't you get the tax credit?"

I'm not American, I'm Canadian. They might give us the rebate but I doubt. Our government rarely wastes money buying cars for people who can afford them on their own.

"But firstwagon, in any case, in an argument here on whether the Volt and the Leaf make sense *for the public*, "*I* won't get the tax credit" is not a good argument at all. It would be like saying, "But the people who are allergic to leather won't want the leather seats in the Volt!""

Not sure I understand the comparision but my point was without the tax credit these cars are even more priced out of their real value.

I could live with the Volt...

firstwagon, so you don't get the tax credit yourself. That doesn't invalid the tax credit for most of the people here. Again, I never said that the Volt is the right car for everyone -- and as I said, it is probably not the right car for myself. But the tax credit is a major part of the equation as to whether it would make sense for many people, and it's incorrect to simply ignore it except as to an evaluation as to whether the car is right for you.

In any case, I don't know what province you live in, but Ontario does have a EV tax credit of C$5,000 to C$8,000, and also gives EV drivers access to carpool lanes. If you live in Ontario, that would change the equation again. Your kilowattage may vary.

"Really? A gas burning hybrid is on par with an all electric when it comes to making an eco-statement? "

When injecting the realities of life, it is the "gas burning hybrid" that goes the furthest and fastest on pure electricity. Yet it is also about as useful as a conventional car in terms of what you can do with it.

nelsonlu

I wasn't speaking for everyone else here. Who does?

I don't live in Ontario (but we do have much cheaper hydro rates here in BC.)

Is the US rebate you mention federal? I actually thought it was a state thing so it would only apply if your state had it.

The US$7,500 tax credit is federal. Some states have additional credits. California, for example, would provide $5K for the Leaf, but not the Volt, so that's an additional consideration. Again, all of these need to be part of the equation.

And I know that Wikipedia may not be the most reliable source at all times, but according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles, 17 states have substantive incentives for EVs. Again, this means that for everyone, the equation will necessarily be different.

One more thing I will add: you suggested the Fit, the Mazda2, and the 500 as the top vehicles "in the class." The Fit and the Mazda2 can arguably fit in the same class as the Volt and the Leaf, but there is no way that the 500 does. It has just 85 cubic feet of passenger space and 10 cubic feet of luggage space, compared to 98/18 for the Volt and 90/23 for the Leaf. It would be like saying that the Ford Focus and the Ford Taurus are in the same class.

I wasn't talking rear seat or trunk space when I said that. I was talking car choices to save money on fuel and have a minimum effect on the enviroment.

Much lower purchace price combined with much higher fun to drive value moves them to the top of the Eco class... IMHO of course.

Thousands of people driving Fits (or Fiestas, 500s, 2s, etc) will do much more good then a handful of Leafs and Volts.

firstwagon, I assume, based on your comments, that you haven't driven either the Volt or the Leaf. With that being the case, it is really inappropriate for you to opine that the Fit/Mazda2/500 are "higher fun to drive[.]" For the record, I've not driven the Leaf yet, but the Volt's power is far greater than any of the other vehicles you mentioned. It would be just as ridiculous to say, from that standpoint, that the Fit is in the same class as the BMW 3-class.

And your assertion "Thousands of people driving Fits (or Fiestas, 500s, 2s, etc) will do much more good then a handful of Leafs and Volts" is a complete red herring. The two are not incompatible phenomena and one need not trade off one for the other. Plus, thousands of people driving EVs will do even more good than thousands of people driving Fits. Not to mention, as I think I argued above and as I noticed you failed to rebut, the Volts/Leafs don't take people out of Fits/Fiestas; they take people out of CTS/ES/TL/3-class types, which means that they do a lot of good that way.

You're right, I haven't driven the Volt or the Leaf (neither one is available here yet). However I can read and I have read every review I can find. I don't remember fun to drive ever being mentioned for either one.

BTW.. power alone does not make a car fun to drive (nor does lack of power make it boring). It's how it drives that matter and I have driven Fit(s) and they are great fun to drive. Light, nimble and tossable around town I would say they rival the 3 series in smiles per mile.

"Not to mention, as I think I argued above and as I noticed you failed to rebut, the Volts/Leafs don't take people out of Fits/Fiestas; they take people out of CTS/ES/TL/3-class types, which means that they do a lot of good that way."

I don't think I was part of that debate and I'm not here to rebute everything you say. If you insist though I think anyone who trades a CTS/ES/TL/3-class for a Volt or Leaf will likely trade again back to a luxury car within a year or so. I think it's a huge stretch to say either the Volt or the Leaf will drive as well as any of those cars. Thus the owners are likely just trading to have the latest trendy thing. They will move back after a short time.

"And your assertion "Thousands of people driving Fits (or Fiestas, 500s, 2s, etc) will do much more good then a handful of Leafs and Volts" is a complete red herring. The two are not incompatible phenomena and one need not trade off one for the other. Plus, thousands of people driving EVs will do even more good than thousands of people driving Fits."

Not really trying to trade one off againest the other, just trying to say subcompacts do more good then low volume specialty cars. It will be a long time before the number of EVs approach the number of Fits on the road. If you think about it, it would be better to give rebates for subcompacts then electic cars. Get people out of their Accords and Camrys and into more sensible cars.

"It will be a long time before the number of EVs approach the number of Fits on the road."

People said that about hybrids, too, a couple years ago. Last month -- even with the supply problems due to the earthquake/tsunami -- 24,797 hybrids sold in the United States. Very comparable to the top-selling compact (Honda Civic) at 26,777.

So all the hybrids combined can't even match a compact which is at the end of it's model life?

Interesting. I thought they were more popular then that. Hopefully EVs will be doing better after they have been on the road for a decade too.

Can you say "tsunami"? If not, can you at least say "earthquake"? I know you can.

The Civic was, for whatever reason, the top selling compact for the month. The Fit isn't anywhere in sight of the top selling list. I was trying to show how your assumptions were wrong.

1. If you don't like or can't afford a Volt, don't buy one
2. The Volt isnt a mainstream car and its not going to sell in volume like a Prius, its not a Prius competitor and it's technology is beyong the Prius
3. Everytime anything is posted on the Volt we have to endure dozens of repetitive posts from GM/Volt haters who want to dismiss the car and tell us how it doesn't make sense financially. They never explain how other $40k+ cars make sense financially however.
4. Until last month the Volt that no one here likes and everyone here is saying has no appeal to consumers outsold the Leaf in spite of costing $9k more than the Leaf. There is some demand for the car and if GM was making more they could sell more.
5. It continues to amaze that people stare at these cost comparisons provided by IL and act like they have any relevance to potential Volt owners that don't live in LA. They do not and most people pay about 1/3 of what IL editors pay for electricity which drastically changes the cost/mile equation. So if you live in LA you can take solace in the fact that a Prius is cheaper to drive- well at least if you do the majority of your driving on gas as IL does- most Volt owners seem to be able to use the car as intended and drive mostly on electricity. If you don't live in LA the cost comparisons are pretty much useless.

They did list out the average cost per mile for BOTH the California and US.

Still can't read I see...

"They did list out the average cost per mile for BOTH the California and US.

Still can't read I see..."

I said LA costs are relevant in LA and nowhere else, but people keep citing the LA costs as proof positive that the Volt is expensive to operate. The other factor of course is that IL is doing most of their driving on gas, not electicity- which defeats the purpose of the car and skews the cost per mile. On top of that they are comparing a real world observed MPG figure for the Volt to EPA figures for Prius and Fusion- even though their Fusion hybrid is currently getting 7mpg less than it's EPA average. My reading comprehension is fine- how about yours?

Use real world mileage figures and reduce the amount of Volt driving on gas and then see which car is cheaper to operate. When EV utilization was at 60% (still a low figure) the Volt was actually cheaper to drive than the Prius. The typical owner is well above 60% EV factor.

As a Volt owner, I'm atypical in that I have to commute 82-90 miles a day. And I take some longer trips on business (about 300 miles round trip).

My average commute day now nets 70 to 80 MPG. While that includes one charge (about 2 bucks for me at $0.17 per Kw/h), there's still no other car sold right now that can serve my purposes and use as little fuel as the Volt, except the Tesla Roadster (100K, less comfortable, less practical, way fewer amenities). And even if I had the Tesla, I'd have to use a different vehicle for my longer trips. The Volt is also just a great car to drive in its own right; one guy on the forums traded in his BMW 540 and prefers his Volt in just about every measure. I doubt that kind of thing has ever been said about a Prius.

Meanwhile, more typical Volt drivers (than me) are using so little gas they're measuring time between fill-ups (a miniscule 9 gallons) in months.

I don't really know how Edmund's is getting such poor fuel economy in their Volt. Just on gas alone I get 36-40 mpg, even on 70mph+ commutes. Based on the forums, my results are typical, and Edmund's result are atypical.

In summary, after nearly 6 months of ownership I believe the Volt is one of the most most brilliant cars currently offered for sale, the best balance period of fuel usage and utility, and almost certainly the most car for the money. And unlike many of the other posters, that's experience talking, not my a**.

1487 writes:

"3. Everytime anything is posted on the Volt we have to endure dozens of repetitive posts from GM/Volt haters who want to dismiss the car and tell us how it doesn't make sense financially. They never explain how other $40k+ cars make sense financially however."

Point is taken, but another reminder: the Volt is not a $41K car; it's a $33.5K car. As a $33.5K car, it makes perfect sense given its contents as long as you can live with its limitations.

Also, I would like to point out that most people who are not on the Volt bandwagon don't necessarily "hate" the Volt like a GM fanboy here want you to believe. They just simply don't see as something that will revolutionize the auto industry. Most will agree that the Volt is an excellent alternative energy option alongside all the hybrids, NGVs and EVs but due to its cost, limit EV range and the ho-hum mpg figure after the EV range it wouldn't be a POPULAR choice to change the industry.

Just because people are not on the bandwagons does not make them "haters"

BIG DIFFERENCE!

yamahr1, the same reason why IL drivers get such poor results from the Volt is probably the same reason why they get such poor results from the Fusion Hybrid: 1) they don't drive the way that these cars are supposed to be driven and 2) the Santa Monica region's traffic pattern is bad for hybrid mileage.

To add some reality to this discussion, here are some other real world numbers. In the last month I've driven the Volt 1132 miles and used .23 gallons of gas. Do the math and you'll find that's an MPG of 3538 MPG. Did I use any electricity? Sure, I used roughly 280 kWh. And how much did this electricity cost me? Well, I have a PV system that produces more than I use so the cost was zero. If I had to pay for the electricity I would have paid $37.80. Which for all you score keepers out there would be about $216 less than I would have paid to gas up my previous car. Do I care a lot about this? Not really. The ride is smoother than anything you've ever experienced, the cabin is quiet, and avoiding gas stations and giving Abdul the finger every day puts a smile on my face. If none of this appeals to you, or if you can't afford to step up to a superior ride, then great, don't buy a Volt. Plenty of people will. No reason to try to ruin every one else's fun. What's up with that?

No reason to comment on the "test" because other than pointing out that it's 100% unscientific and otherwise completely useless there isn't much you can say.

People buying $40k+ cars are NOT trying to make any financial sense. They buy those cars for many reasons such as:

The brand
Persormance
Status symbol
Dealer/Customer service experience

or any other reasons.

I know if I was trying to make any "financial sense" I would've drove my old '97 Honda Accord to the ground instead of getting a new car...

Oh by the way, I don't think it makes much "financial sense" from buying a Regal either... The Aura worked fine didn't it?

"Point is taken, but another reminder: the Volt is not a $41K car; it's a $33.5K car. As a $33.5K car, it makes perfect sense given its contents as long as you can live with its limitations."

I get your point, but not everyone would qualify for the full $7500 tax credit. Either way people buy cars because they want to own them, not based on some cold calculation about cost per mile. How does the Volt compare in cost per mile to other $41k cars? Bet we wont see any comparison like that. In other news, most cars with similar pricetags cost far more to operate than any Prius or Leaf.

"Just because people are not on the bandwagons does not make them "haters""

No, it just makes you ignorant. And there is no bandwagon, there are rational people (including a few owners that post) who understand what's been accomplished here and there are irrational haters who are making stupid arguments about cost per mile or the superiority of the prius simply because its cheaper. And at no point did GM or anyone here claim that this is absolutely the future of the automobile. For the foreseeable future we will have regular ICE cars, hybids, electrics and Volt like vehicles. The Volt's tech isnt going to supplant conventional powertrains anytime soon and no one has claimed as such. What has been said is that its the first car of its kind and its bound to spark numerous imitators going forward. Supposedly BMW has one for reverse engineering and they hired the former chief engineer so they must disagree with your assessment that the car is nothing special.

"People buying $40k+ cars are NOT trying to make any financial sense."

agreed which makes all the arguments about cost per mile or the price premium vs the Prius stupid. People buy luxury cars because they want something that other people don't have. The Volt represents the same thing. The people who buy one want something innovative, exclusive, effective and statement making. I think they could care less about the Volt's price relative to cheaper hybrids or the cost per mile vs a Prius.

well said Donc. The same people have been making the same arguments about the same car for some time now. It all stems from the fact that they feel GM is getting too much credit for this car. That's the long and short of it.

"Oh by the way, I don't think it makes much "financial sense" from buying a Regal either... The Aura worked fine didn't it?"

New cars rarely make financial sense which is what I've been saying. Preaching to the choir on that note. Aura was a lease BTW. But you know it all so I'm sure you knew that as well. Besides, Aura isn't a Lexus so it likely would've broken down soon anyway.

This great big circle jerk (the exact same one that appears with every friggin' post for this car, as if anyone has anything NEW to say) is missing the most surprising data point:

The Volt is using less electricity/mile than the Leaf. Despite being outliers on the fuel consumption compared to other Volt drivers, the Edmunds editors are doing BETTER than EPA (36kWh/100mi) with the Volt and WORSE with than the Leaf EPA (34kWh/100).

My personal observation has been that I use less electricity than the few Leaf owners who post real at-the-wall electricity usage. I've been reluctant to draw a conclusion since so many of them live in the hilly Bay Area. Is Edmunds confirming my observation? It's a shame they didn't tow the Volt out to the Leaf maximum range test.

I have not been properly OCD about recording but my last 3 EV weeks in the car:
223.6 miles @ 33.9 kWh/100mi
249.7 miles @ 29.3 kWh/100mi
191.1 miels @ 32.6 kWh/100mi

I drove 19 miles on .56 gallons during that time, which is 33.9 MPG for my gasoline miles although I'm not convinced I can believe the car's fuel number out to two significant digits.

I'm at about 2000 miles since I last put gasoline in the car on March 15.

1387 writes:

"I get your point, but not everyone would qualify for the full $7500 tax credit."

Other than our Canadian friend here (firstwagon), I have yet to "meet" (in person or on the Web) anyone who actually would not qualify for the tax credit. If such a person exists, he/she is in such a tiny minority that we shouldn't let the exception swallow up the rule.

One very surprising point. I went to Toyota.com and ran lease numbers with the same basics as the Volt (same due-at-signing amount, 3 years, 12k/yr, 720+ FICO) and guess what? You can lease a Prius III w/NAV or a base Prius IV for the same $$$ as a Volt. A V or a IV w/NAV costs MORE than a Volt! A Prius II stripper saves $65/mo vs. the Volt, a base Prius III is $50/mo less.

The Prius was much cheaper to lease last year but not any longer.

" The people who buy one want something innovative, exclusive, effective and statement making. I think they could care less about the Volt's price relative to cheaper hybrids or the cost per mile vs a Prius. "

Glad we agree on something.

"The Prius was much cheaper to lease last year but not any longer."

Tsunami anyone?

Also, have you considered that there are some people who buy cars instead of lease them?

The prices went up before the Tsunami.

I own all my other cars outright. So what? My point is that there's already an intersection of ownership costs between the two vehicles despite the tired "the Volt costs sooooooo much" arguments.

@louiswei: "Glad we agree on something."

Yes, you've already won that one. Over and over and over. We all get it. It's cheaper overall to BUY a Prius, and cheaper to LEASE one, as long as it's a stripper. Why don't you enjoy your victory and save a post in every single thread?

I don't recall if you mentioned where you live. Can you go drive a Volt and then really tell us how much it sucks? That would be much more interesting.

"Yes, you've already won that one. Over and over and over. We all get it."

I brought up the Prius because this post brought up the Prius. Got a problem with that? Then talk to the IL editors...

"Why don't you enjoy your victory and save a post in every single thread?"

Victory of what? Why does the discussion for every thread need to result in winners and losers? Last I checked that we are all just here to express our opinions. Some likes the Volt and some don't. Some see the point to spend $35k on a Chevy and some don't. Some think the Prius fit their needs better and some think the Volt does. Don't like my post? Fine, skip it. I didn't hold a gun on your head to read it. Oh and don't tell me that it's annoying, JUST SKIP IT!

"I don't recall if you mentioned where you live. Can you go drive a Volt and then really tell us how much it sucks? That would be much more interesting."

Have no interest in buying a Volt so I won't waste my time AND the Chevy sales' time. As matter of fact, if it was up to me I would have no interest buying a Prius at the first place, it was the wife's decision (her car by the way, I was rooting for the VW GTI) and I find it extremely pefect for long road trips. I am sure the Volt has a nicer interior and drives better but to us that's a moot point since the Prius is a daily for the wife and road trip beater, simple as that.

@Louiswei:

"The Volt only makes sense if you only use the electric range with "occational" (like once or twice of a lifetime...) long trips. But if that's the case why not get the Leaf which gives you double the range per charge and just rent a car (like a Prius...) for long trips.

"Revolutionary" technology? I think not."

Firstly, you basically tell people to get a Leaf or rent a Prius, rather than getting a Volt. Your exact phrase is "only makes sense". You discount every aspect except for "financial sense". It is a non-reasonable argument that indicates you have an emotionally-based disdain for the Volt. If you're a hater, go for it but don't try to wrap your hate into pseudo-logical arguments.

Secondly, for you not to see the revolutionary aspects of the Volt borders on ignorance. Please read the comments from ACTUAL VOLT OWNERS. The car's integration of ICE, almost fully-electric drive train, battery maintenance system and associated complex software appears to be smoother than anyone expected. It IS revolutionary.

Finally, I would hope you have the ability to see the big picture for this early-adopter 1st gen Volt. This car will bring real-world testing/experience and push market forces towards cheaper, lighter batteries, breaking price and range barriers. Without the Volt, we will not get there, simple as that.

Broaden your horizons, buddy!

Louiswei is just emotionally dis-invested in the Volt, apparently the Volt is stealing sales from the Prius, from the lastest GM sales report.. and there has always been lots of angst about the Volt from Prius owners.. but to be fair lots of Volt owners make fun of the Prius.. its like a wresting match at the special olympics :)

Just wanted to repeat that if you dont pay enough taxes to benefit from the fed tax credit then you can lease the Volt, the credit is taken by GM and reflected in the lease cost.. if you like the car you can always buy it at the end of the lease.

"mfennell says:

The Volt is using less electricity/mile than the Leaf. Despite being outliers on the fuel consumption compared to other Volt drivers, the Edmunds editors are doing BETTER than EPA (36kWh/100mi) with the Volt and WORSE with than the Leaf EPA (34kWh/100).

My personal observation has been that I use less electricity than the few Leaf owners who post real at-the-wall electricity usage. I've been reluctant to draw a conclusion since so many of them live in the hilly Bay Area. Is Edmunds confirming my observation? It's a shame they didn't tow the Volt out to the Leaf maximum range test."

I assume the Edmund editors are driving both cars over the same terrain so that should wash out, but I'm sure the mess that is EPA mpg testing will eventually get sorted out. Reports coming out of flat Phoenix are starting to come out, they show some owners getting extreme ranges for the Leaf:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=3752

"Also, have you considered that there are some people who buy cars instead of lease them?"

The lease cost is valid because Volt bashers like yourself continue to ignore it, I'm glad it was mentioned. Many middle class people can afford the Volt's lease price and anyone who knows anything about luxury cars knows a HUGE % of them are leased. BMW and MB specifically thrive on leases.

"Why don't you enjoy your victory and save a post in every single thread?"

I've been wondering the same thing. He acts like we aren't all capable of understanding the Prius is cheaper than the Volt. No one has argued otherwise but he keeps making the same stupid point repeatedly.

" Last I checked that we are all just here to express our opinions. Some likes the Volt and some don't. Some see the point to spend $35k on a Chevy and some don't. Some think the Prius fit their needs better and some think the Volt does. Don't like my post? Fine, skip it. I didn't hold a gun on your head to read it. Oh and don't tell me that it's annoying, JUST SKIP IT!"

You are completely obnoxious, almost as much as your mentor. First of all this isnt a Prius thread so there is no reason to praise the Prius in every Volt post. If you love the Prius (because really you seem to be the only one talking about it) I would say a Volt thread isnt the best place to constantly proclaim the Prius is the only smart choice in this segment. You infer that you don't see the point in spending $35k on a Chevy- numerous chevy models exceed that figure in terms of MSRP so if you're suggesting the Volt is far too expensive for a vehicle wearing a chevy badge I suggest you look up Traverse, Corvette, Camaro SS, Tahoe, Silverado, Suburban, etc. Lots of people see the point in a $35k+ chevy. If you have nothing more to say about the Volt othert than anyone who considers it is making a poor decision there really is no value in your presence any further. It's been well established that you don't like the Volt, you dont like the accolades its gotten, you would never buy one, you think Toyota products are more innovative, you think it's too expensive, it costs too much to own, etc. The horse is dead, trust me.

" I am sure the Volt has a nicer interior and drives better but to us that's a moot point since the Prius is a daily for the wife and road trip beater, simple as that."

OK well those who can afford a Volt might be willing to pay more for a better drive, nicer interior, better styling, a more advanced technology. Since you don't like either car I don't get the obsessive Prius defence. You say you don't care about the Prius but you are selling it to use like you care quite a bit.

Spare me with the "bringing up Prius in a Volt tread" argument.

Lets see who brought up the Prius first... Oh yeah, Dan Edmunds, Director of Vehicle Testing...

Like I said, I don't "love" the Prius, I like it for long road trips because it gets me 50 mpg whenevery, everywhere. There are people who don't take long trips often so the Volt is perfect for them, like I said before. Also, I don't speak for anybody else except myself when I post here so you can automatically insert IMO in front of every single post under my name.

Let me know if I ever said something like "Buying a Volt is WRONG" then I'll be more than happy to correct that.

In April:

$20.45 spent in electricity to charge the battery
$24.00 spent on premium gas used (5.9 gallons consumed)

$44.45 total spent to "fuel" the Volt in April over 843.7 miles driven.
5.2 cents per mile for the second month in a row.

I would have had a much lower figure but we took the Volt twice to watch the Lightning sweep the Capitals. Without that unusual 214 miles in hockey travel, my cost per mile would have been significantly lower (3.2 cents per mile) as no gasoline would have been consumed in April. (The mileage was lower than usual as the car sat for 7 days (FYI, no degradation in range during) while I was out of town.)

It goes to show again - your range/mileage/cost/etc. WILL vary greatly depending on how/where you drive it. I also noticed that my "all-electric" range averaging of about 46 has fallen to about 40 as I've had to use the A/C nearly every day for a month. Looks like this car will be best from Nov-March 30 down here.

According to CNN: http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/02/autos/volt_1000_miles/index.htm (I've stopped twice to refuel since Jan 29th.)

Regards

@hermperez: "Reports coming out of flat Phoenix are starting to come out, they show some owners getting extreme ranges for the Leaf:"

Thanks for that. It will be interesting to see how they work when the temps get brutal out there. IIRC, GM has been quoted as (essentially) saying the Volt isn't going to be the greatest choice in the brutal southwest and it's liquid cooling capability for the pack should be better than the Leaf's air approach. Battery chemistry is the wildcard though.

FWIW, my personal, actual, cost-per-mile of 4.9-5.7c is less than any Prius I'm not Flintstoning, even at 0.17/kWh. While I appreciate the real data in the blog, I think it's misleading to post comparative cost per mile numbers based on EPA numbers that the editors would NEVER attain. Their long term Prius average was 42 IIRC.

Tomorrow, I promise to drive my FFR Cobra replica and burn both gas and rubber. :) It gets who-the-hell-cares MPG.

LOL More shilly-ness from Edmunds. Big surprise.
And it starts with the photograph of a Kill-a-watt picturing the "worst case" Volt charging energy-how typical.

This data is so statisically flawed in so many ways it's almost humorous.
Take for example their "averages" of 2 samples "Worst" and "Best"
What kind of crap science is this?
Mr. Edmunds why don't you show us what your REALLY getting on average (of ALL trips) in terms of EV range and MPG?

Just another anti-EV/Volt/Leaf site hell bent on portraiting only the numbers that meet their own twisted agenda. Sad commentary indeed.
It will hurt their reputation and their sorry-ass site in the long run...
WOT

"While I appreciate the real data in the blog, I think it's misleading to post comparative cost per mile numbers based on EPA numbers that the editors would NEVER attain. Their long term Prius average was 42 IIRC."

Agreed. They have real world values for the Fusion but they keep pluggin in 39mpg in the cost comparison. The Volt is actually closer to its EPA mileage than the Fusion hybrid- why not use the obeserved mpg for both vehicles?

WOPONTOUR sez: "This data is so statisically flawed in so many ways it's almost humorous.
Take for example their "averages" of 2 samples "Worst" and "Best"
What kind of crap science is this?"

Right on! Normally you'd have to go to Consumer Reports for testing this bad or purposely skewed, but IL has it all over them.

IL has clearly had it out for the Volt ever since the infamous and outright deceptive "GM Lied" article (back in November I believe?), which managed to create more negative misinformation spreading about the Volt than probably any other single event. While at times since they have tried to pretend some level of objectivity, I think Dan Edmunds and company's hostile view of the Volt will certainly prevail in the end of their testing, no matter how they have to juggle the data-- probably with the main emphasis on "cost per mile" as they plug it into the most expensive juice in the USA and flog it into getting worse gas MPG than just about any other real-world owner.

I believe the top four on the loathsome list of Volt enemies have to be (in no special order): Rush Limbaugh, George Will, Glenn Beck, and Edmunds / Inside Line.

@wopontour: "Take for example their "averages" of 2 samples "Worst" and "Best" "

Those are the overall averages, not the average of best and worst. Check the math.

I did just notice something. The fact that they're not matching the EPA Leaf numbers for kwh/100 BUT beating them in "estimated range" suggests that their Leaf is often way overestimating range in many cases. I thought there was a firmware update for that?

"I believe the top four on the loathsome list of Volt enemies have to be (in no special order): Rush Limbaugh, George Will, Glenn Beck, and Edmunds / Inside Line."

LOL! George Will is obsessed with the Volt, but he never mentions that the Leaf is eligible for the tax breaks he loathes so much. He also doesn't mention that the rebate/tax credit programs existed when Bush was president. Will was one of the most ardent critics of the American auto industry and since the bailouts worked he has to focus his ire on cars like the Volt.

A different picture shown here with regards to cost of operation for Volt vs Prius.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2011/05/cheapest-commute-nissan-leaf-chevy-volt-toyota-prius-ford-focus-or-a-train.html

Commute length and electricity prices totally change things.

OMG what a bunch of whiners! Did somebody say something bad about a Chevy and something good about a Toyota? The Horror!

"I believe the top four on the loathsome list of Volt enemies have to be (in no special order): Rush Limbaugh, George Will, Glenn Beck, and Edmunds / Inside Line.""

How about the ENTIRE 'bamster regime is the enemy of the free market? That is a much more accurate statement. Wait, I am sorry they do like ONE part of it...the companies that contribute to the Democratic party! Yep, Barry wants EVERY company with a Federal contract to disclose who they give political contributions too! Talk about a repressive regime! It is quite chilling and for those that dont object to it, you are beneath contempt. This is Obama and his Unions trying to do ANYTHING to stop opposition to their policies.

On-Star info just emailed to me since the last report for the last rolling 30 days:

Electric Consumption: 24 kW-hr/100 miles
Electric Miles: 868
Gas Miles: 234
Total Miles: 1,102
Percentage on Electric: 79 %

regards,