2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS: Stunning Details

^ +1

+2. Cartoonish describes it best. It makes a big impact and then after awhile you realize how ungainly it is.

-3

The car still looks good and consumers must agree. This car is still a head turner in a way the current competition never will be. Bashing the Camaro is now almost as cool as bashin anything Chrysler makes. All of the "in" crowd hates on the Camaro now. Considering its still selling well I would say many agree with my assessment that its still one of the most striking cars on the road, certainly amongst the top AFFORDABLE cars with compelling styling. I wish more details had been provided about the design elements that don't work because I can't find them. The rear end could use a little work but on the whole the car is a nearly flawless exterior design.

--"on the whole the car is a nearly flawless exterior design.--

@1487,

Did you forget style is in the eye of the beholder? For someone who preaches objectivity until he or she is blue in the face, why don't you PRACTICE it for once.

The Camaro is a head-turner. I wouldn't call it beautiful, but that it made people excited about the Camaro (and Chevrolet) for the right reasons makes me think this is a successful design. Now, if only I could see out of the thing...

The Camaro has an absolutely stunning side profile, but disappoints a bit from the front or rear.

I think the stance is the car's issue. Looking directly at it from the side, you don't notice it, but from the quarter angles, it looks like it is riding pretty high...and I know the wheel tire combo is fairly wide, but the massively flared fenders make em look skinny.

I saw a Mustang GT 5.0 recently, and it had the same issue...too much wheel gap, and not enough wheel+tire for the bodywork.

These modern muscle cars seem to need some seriously wide rubber for the visual finishing touch. Good thing there are plenty of aftermarket options..

"The rear end could use a little work but on the whole the car is a nearly flawless exterior design."

ROFLMFAO....you are a complete shill for GM and that statement really shows it. Just like the lie about being an engineer, that is a pure BS through and through. Spread your lies and and corporate ass kissing somewhere else.

I'm a fan of the Camaro's design, for the most part. There are just two items that jump out at me as being not completely thought out or cheap. First off, the reverse lights could have easily been integrated into the tail lights instead of being set off by themselves. I mean, they're tiny enough as it is, so they just look odd where they're at now. Second, the cheap plasti-chrome rings around the tail lights also rub me the wrong way. Other than those minor personal preferences, I like the Camaro.

uh oh, people dared to criticize a GM car... all bow to the mighty sales figures!

Remember everyone, never have an opinion of your own that isn't backed by up-to-the-second sales numbers. Because if 1487 says something is nearly flawless, you damn well better respect his authoritah!

"Did you forget style is in the eye of the beholder? For someone who preaches objectivity until he or she is blue in the face, why don't you PRACTICE it for once. "

Styling isnt objective, never has been. when the car debuted most of the press loved the styling, now that its been out for a while its become fashionable to criticize the styling. I don't understand that. How was this car a stunner in 2009 but "cartoonish" now? It looked good when I saw the concept and it still looks good to me. People on the street (and buyers) seem to like the styling as evidenced by the reaction of passsers by mentioned in the post above.

I would like those who find the styling so objectionable to tell me which cars in this price range are more appealing from a styling perspective. Genesis coupe? WRX Sti? 135i?

"Just like the lie about being an engineer, that is a pure BS through and through. "

My BSME (you prob don't know what that stands for) is a fake? News to me. Don't tell my employer! Your one man crusade to destroy the rep of a car whose success keeps you up at night is pathetic. Did you see the Sept sales results vs Mustang? Guess not. Weren't you the main one reveling in the imminent sales domination of the 2011 Mustang? I tried to tell people (including IL editors who were happily predicting the overtaking of the Camaro) that buyers care about LOOKS, especially in this segment. The Mustang's engines are MUCH better than before but its irrelevant to many people because the car LOOKS the same. The Camaro has ONE version and less options and is still outselling the Mustang. THAT is an indication of how popular the styling is to consumers.

"just like the lie about being an engineer..."

WOW. Now that is really lame. And sad. I kinda feel sorry for this guy.

As for the car's styling, I think its eye-catching, but not necessarily beautiful as thegraduate said. I agree with sherief's assessment about the tires. The Shelby GT500 has it about right. The Challenger also has good wheel gap. A bit of rake would be appreciated on the Camaro as well. But overall its an unique design. I personally prefer the Challenger and Mustang's styling. Particularly the Challenger's heft and size. Oh yes, and Chevy totally stole the "halo" headlights from BMW.

@1487

Oh, so you're really a mech. engineer? My bad. Didn't see you're later post. My old man's a MME. What school? And year?

Since "engineer" 1487 declared the Camaro's styling to be nearly flawless, I must retract my previous statement and now declare that I love nearly everything about it.

"My BSME (you prob don't know what that stands for) is a fake? News to me. Don't tell my employer! Your one man crusade to destroy the rep of a car whose success keeps you up at night is pathetic"

You are indeed a liar...why not tell us who you work for and I will try and get in touch with them. I could care less about the sales of any car......you are the corporate whore, not me. But since we are on the subject of sales, what are the Ford vs Chevy sales? Oh and why has not GM gone public yet? Could it be because they know they cant get near the $105 per share it needs to even get close to pay back the American tax payer? I have seen several articles that things at GM arent as rosy as they are saying. OK corporate shill......lets hear it.

Oh and what college did you get your Mechanical Engineering degree at? (Bachelors)

PS be careful about lying on the internet....your name is out there.

"all bow to the mighty sales figures!"

He hates to admit that Ford is having bigger increases than GM month after month......and that it is far more respected for not taking bailout money both on Wall street and mainstreet.

First of all, design is subjective (IMHO). Second, I'm not a fan of the Camero - its flashy and has good angles and bad angles. I like flashy (I drive a 370Z - which has good and bad angles too), but I'm not a fan of having a rear-seat and I liked the original Z's (Datsun) and enjoyed the lineage.

Interesting conversation above...

Kevin

"I would like those who find the styling so objectionable to tell me which cars in this price range are more appealing from a styling perspective. Genesis coupe? WRX Sti? 135i?"

Dare I say...Kizashi? haha.

But for real, Mustang, Challenger, Z car, 135i, used M3, used 911, Genesis coupe, and the now-officially-used Pontiac G8 and new Dodge Charger. And the new Focus.

"Your one man crusade to destroy the rep of a car whose success keeps you up at night is pathetic. Did you see the Sept sales results vs Mustang?"

Whoa, bro. Take a chill pill. Just cause people disagree with you doesn't mean that they are crusading against you. You're starting to sound like Stalin. Anyway, Mustang sales are only about 600 units back. Plus Mustang sales boomed this summer, whereas Camaro sales have hovered around the 5750-6000 mark for most of the year.

But of course, I'm not hating. I'm just stating facts.

Oh whoops, forgot a GM car. used Corvette Z06.

To bad the 2012 Camaro mirrors likely won't look so nicely sculpted.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109383

holy hell those new mirrors are ugly.
but i'm sure 1487 will say they're expertly engineered.

Mr. Reed... you forgot the most important detail... did you get a photo of the young women?

@cah11705

Who cares what they look like they are now big enough that you can see something with them.

i guess thats why it hasn't sold yet?

"I saw a Mustang GT 5.0 recently, and it had the same issue...too much wheel gap, and not enough wheel+tire for the bodywork. "

My biggest problem with Mustang styling is the rear. It's so weak and bland...

It's ironic that Phil posted an image of an outside mirror. Yes, it's beautiful—but it is also a big FAIL in my book.

Why? It doesn't fold inward.

Why is that such a big deal? Because it's easy to break off in close quarters. I should know, as I accidentally broke off an non-folding mirror years back, as I was walking past a car in a parking lot.

From that point on I swore I would never own a car with non-folding outside mirrors.

1487, you might not want to make the same conclusion but you made a correct observation. People initially liked the looks of the camaro. Some might call that a first impression. Now you say its just popular to dislike the car, while maybe the whole world or at least of large group of enthusiasts might do such a thing, would it not be at least equally likely that maybe the looks might not have the ability to continue to look good?

Not like having a BSME has anything to do with a discussion of styling, neither does my BSEE or does my working for a car company, everyone has different tastes and they are entitled to express them.

This thread is beyond hilarious. EVERYONE. ALMA MATER. NOW.

"The rear end could use a little work but on the whole the car is a nearly flawless exterior design."

That is definitely a statement that jumps into beyond the pale territory, BSME or not. I can only imagine this sort of unchallenged arrogance must be at deafening echo-chamber levels at GM studios, as an explanation for the car stylings subject to most of their aggressive design trends as of late.

Yeeesh!

"Not like having a BSME has anything to do with a discussion of styling, neither does my BSEE or does my working for a car company, everyone has different tastes and they are entitled to express them."

This made me chuckle. I completely agree that degrees and employers may have an affect on our perceptions - however perhaps our personality (which gave us these perceptions) may have lead us to our degrees and employers. The Chicken & the Egg problem again.

BTW throwing around degrees to show status, depth of knowledge, superiority, or whatever only diminishes folks in my eyes. If I need to state my degree to gain respect in someone's eyes, then I've already fallen prey to a basic tactic - that somehow I have something to prove to that someone.

Honestly, I just take 1487's diatribes with a grain of salt. When a three year old tells me the sky is green, I don't argue. I just let that three year old go on believing what they want - no use in arguing with a child. Likewise with staunch personalities: why waste my time and effort trying to change their subjective view. Rather, I just let them make a fool of themselves - the world will slowly and consistently teach them a lesson.

But then again, that's just one man's humble opinion on a vast board of opinions. Please take what I'm saying with a grain of salt too, and devise your own opinion. I enjoy the variety and take none personally.

Kevin

wrinklebump-- exactly. This thread has been a good chuckle.

I have the feeling that since I got my BS at the University of Texas, that just like our football team this year, my opinion was initially vastly overrated, but quickly has fallen in respect and now anything I say will struggle to really make a name for itself.

My opinion about cars will be tumultuous until December, when (hopefully) I can place a little trust in what I say again for the coming year.

"Since "engineer" 1487 declared the Camaro's styling to be nearly flawless, I must retract my previous statement and now declare that I love nearly everything about it."

You are off target, as usual. Your comprehension skills are lacking. I never said there was any correlation between engineerng and appreciating good design. I mentioned having an engineering degree after you falsely claimed that I have no technical acumen in another pots. Your comrade in ignorance- Bodyblue- then decided to accuse me of lying based on his in depth knowledge of my educational background. Never did I say my education had any bearing on my credibility with regards to evaluating the design of the Camaro.

"You are indeed a liar...why not tell us who you work for and I will try and get in touch with them. "

You are pathetic. My employer has over 22k employees so I fail to see how you could "get in touch with them" to inquire about me. That's one of the dumbest things you've written thus far- and that's saying something. I fail to understand what basis you have for calling me a liar. Pretty strong words for someone of limited credibility.

"holy hell those new mirrors are ugly.
but i'm sure 1487 will say they're expertly engineered."

Grow up. And once that occurs simply tell me which cars in this class sport superior styling to this "ugly" Camaro. Once you do that, see if you can explain why those cars are getting severely spanked on the sales charts by this ugly car. Considering the press (and the syncophants here who yearn to be patted on the head by IL staffers) has now decided the car has no redeeming qualities aside from the LS3 I would like to know why people are buying this car in droves if the styling isnt a hit. Do tell.

"Not like having a BSME has anything to do with a discussion of styling, neither does my BSEE or does my working for a car company, everyone has different tastes and they are entitled to express them. "

Never said any type of degree was relevant to the discussion.

"BTW throwing around degrees to show status, depth of knowledge, superiority, or whatever only diminishes folks in my eyes. If I need to state my degree to gain respect in someone's eyes, then I've already fallen prey to a basic tactic - that somehow I have something to prove to that someone. "

I'm amazed at the lack of reading comprehension here. You have no idea why I mentioned the degree. NEVER did I claim it was relevant to the discussion nor did I suggest it implied any superiority. Since you have no clue as to what is going on I will tell you that Bodyblue referenced it here by calling me a liar and the original point was made IN ANOTHER THREAD when I was accused of lacking any technical knowledge. THAT is how it came about- it had nothing to do with status, putting anyone down, bragging, etc. I didnt even bring it up in this thread. Your eagerness to pounce and gain cool points without knowing anything about the issue at hand speaks to the dangers of the mob mentality. Get familiar with the subject matter you are commenting on first and then see if its prudent to add your two cents.

"But for real, Mustang, Challenger, Z car, 135i, used M3, used 911, Genesis coupe, and the now-officially-used Pontiac G8 and new Dodge Charger. And the new Focus"

I was mainly talkng about affordable, sporty vehicles currently for sale NEW.

I dont count the Focus as a similar vehicle in price or mission. Never been a fan of the Charger or Challenger's styling. Genesis looks pretty good but is totally generic. M3 is not a compelling design, its a compelling performer. 135 is not attractive to me or many others if you read reviews of the car. Z is OK but don't think it gets noticed in traffic.

"tell me which cars in this class sport superior styling to this "ugly" Camaro."

It's two closest competitors, for one. The clean design of the Challenger has less of the angry robot look that plagues the Camaro, and the Mustang will age much better with it's muscular-yet-conservative design.

I still get a hearty laugh out of your statement about a good-looking car not being subjective.

"He hates to admit that Ford is having bigger increases than GM month after month......and that it is far more respected for not taking bailout money both on Wall street and mainstreet."

Never had any issue with Ford's increases. Everyone knows they are doing well and I haven't said anything negative about them. Stop lying. Ford and GM have increased retail marketshare this year and last month. GM's sales gain overall was smaller largely because their retail gains were large but fleet sales presumably tanked.

"since we are on the subject of sales, what are the Ford vs Chevy sales? Oh and why has not GM gone public yet? Could it be because they know they cant get near the $105 per share it needs to even get close to pay back the American tax payer? I have seen several articles that things at GM arent as rosy as they are saying. OK corporate shill......lets hear it."

None of the above is relevant to the discussion. Rattner is the one saying he belives most, if not all, the money will be paid back. GM isn't making those comments. IPO will be after election based on what I read, they don't want it to be caught up in pre-election debate and controversy. I already said (more than once) that the government will NOT sell all its shares up front. Recent reports suggest it may take up to 2 years to fully exit as GM's stockholder. The stupid share price you keep quoting is based on outstanding number of current shares and the government trying to reap $40B in one shot. The value of the company (and its competitors) will rise if US and global sales rise. With the US market still near 30 year lows common sense tells us its probably not the ideal time for GM to be near its maximum value.

"I still get a hearty laugh out of your statement about a good-looking car not being subjective. "

Um, no I said styling is not OBJECTIVE.

I think the Challenger is preferred by older people who remember the original. I wasnt around when the original was on the market and I dont appreciate the literal translation of the styling to the new car. The overhangs are too long and I do not like the rear fender/quarter panel area. I don't like the full width plastic lense on the back either. Mustang's styling is really very close to what its been since 2004, its attractive but too familiar at this point.

"Styling isnt objective, never has been. "

thanks for my morning chuckle. style is the most objective thing in the world. there is literally nothing more objective.

"I would like those who find the styling so objectionable to tell me which cars in this price range are more appealing from a styling perspective. Genesis coupe? WRX Sti? 135i?"

I think all three are better looking. You always refer to the Genesis Coupe as bland, but I'm not really sure what that means. I think it stands out in the crowd, especially because its crowd of competitors is so small. It certainly doesn't look like anything else on the road, except perhaps one of the late genation Tiburons. The 135 is probably my least favourite of the bunch, but I don't really consider it a competitor to the Camaro.

IMO, the problem with the Camaro design is the back end. I cringe whenever i see that awful trunk deck and the lights. From what I can tell, the refresh will be no better in this regard. As someone else posted above, the side and front profile for the Camaro are great. Unfortunately, baby don't got back. I'd take a Challenger over the Camaro, but probably a Camaro over a Mustang.

The problem with talking about a vehicle like the Camaro is the lack of objective personalities. For the most part, the type of people to post in these threads are either Camaro or Mustang fanboys. There really is no common ground, and as a result we end up with a thread like this.

One more thing for the record: listing educational stats is irrelevant - in this respect 1487 is correct. I know plenty of people with engineering degrees, master's degrees, doctorates, etc. Anyone who has spent time in higher education should well aware that a piece of paper on a wall - even one earned after 4 years of school - means very little. The best engineers are not hired for their degrees or because of which school they attended.

""Styling isnt objective, never has been. "

thanks for my morning chuckle. style is the most objective thing in the world. there is literally nothing more objective."

Whoops, excuse me. I misread the item I quoted: i thought you typed subjective, not objective. my mistake - haven't had my morning caffeine. Please disregard that portion of my post. I guess this is why it pays to hit "preview comment"

@dougtheeng -"The best engineers are not hired for their degrees or because of which school they attended."

maybe after 10 years those might not matter, the first 5 those things are crucial

I think on the camaro refresh if they go a bit more conservative and less 'made for transformers' it could be a very classicly attractive car.

You're right, you said styling isn't objective, but your sentiments are that those who find the Camaro to be distasteful are simply wrong, which rebuts your original statement - hence my confusion with trying to comprehend what you say; typing one thing, then implying another.

I agree with 1487 in saying that it is a visibly striking car. So was the Aztek. The Camaro is an obviously more well-received design, but to say a car is striking is not to say it's beautiful.

Maybe the Camaro doesn't have to be beautiful? To me it's more brutal than beautiful, which almost fits these machines; 400+ horses, nearly 2 tons - pretty brutish if you ask me. :)

"I fail to see how you could "get in touch with them" to inquire about me"

Like I said, your name is out there.....you need to be far more careful when kissing asses on GM boards. Now what is your employer again?

"Pretty strong words for someone of limited credibility. "

HUH? Oh yeah you are going for the big lie, nazi style, again.

"Stop lying"

About what?

"Once you do that, see if you can explain why those cars are getting severely spanked on the sales charts by this ugly car"

600 units last month are a spanking? What about the last 30 years? Ohh never mind

"Your eagerness to pounce and gain cool points without knowing anything about the issue at hand speaks to the dangers of the mob mentality. Get familiar with the subject matter you are commenting on first and then see if its prudent to add your two cents. "

This thread is your swan song. This is not mob mentality...it is a lot of people fed up with your lies and BS. Your evasions and accusations about folks trying to get in good with IL and all of your other paranoid BS have finally driven a lot of us crazy. You are the worst kind of troll....one that does not know when it is time to go. You contribute nothing, but only trumpet your crazy crusade against IL and anybody who does not agree with you. Take a look at this thread and ask yourself if you are respected here. If you were capable of independent thought you would realize you need to change the way to speak to people.....come back with a new attitude and way of posting and maybe folks will listen to you at some point.

"maybe after 10 years those might not matter, the first 5 those things are crucial"

Not for my company, and not in my experience as a new engineer. Maybe its different in your neck of the woods :) Every company values different things in a new employee.

"Take a look at this thread and ask yourself if you are respected here. If you were capable of independent thought you would realize you need to change the way to speak to people.....come back with a new attitude and way of posting and maybe folks will listen to you at some point."

@1487,

Bodyblue makes at least one very valid point here. The way you approach anyone with a different opinion, editors, contributors, and fellow posters alike, shows one of two things:

1.) You are a troll that relishes the extra attention he or she gets by making posts bound to be flamed by others in a particular forum, or

2.) You lack adult communication skills, the ability to admit when you're wrong (instead you leave the conversation; Crosstour convo anyone?), or the ability to present any information or opinion without insinuating that those who differ from your opinion are blithering idiots.

The funny part is, I agree with you on the topic of the vehicles about as often as I disagree, but your attitude makes many, MANY people WANT to disagree with you and WANT to make you look like one of the fools that you imply all of us who participate at Inside Line are. You've created a very spiteful group. This isn't a group of GM hating, BMW driving, import-butt-kissing people. That's not why people have seemingly "rallied against you."

We're car enthusiasts. We like to read about them and talk about them. We also generally maintain a dose of respect for our fellow posters, as adults. When you fail to offer the same respect, you fail to get it.

Prove me wrong. PLEASE.

"I'm amazed at the lack of reading comprehension here. You have no idea why I mentioned the degree. NEVER did I claim it was relevant to the discussion nor did I suggest it implied any superiority. Since you have no clue as to what is going on I will tell you that Bodyblue referenced it here by calling me a liar and the original point was made IN ANOTHER THREAD when I was accused of lacking any technical knowledge. THAT is how it came about- it had nothing to do with status, putting anyone down, bragging, etc. I didnt even bring it up in this thread. Your eagerness to pounce and gain cool points without knowing anything about the issue at hand speaks to the dangers of the mob mentality. Get familiar with the subject matter you are commenting on first and then see if its prudent to add your two cents."

Sounds like someone had their bottle taken away...
1) Me gaining cool points - I don't need anyone's acceptance on this board. But unlike you, I don't find it necessary to stomp on others' opinions. I believe a step back and perhaps a bit of modesty would allow you to fit into this board much better.
2) And, not understanding the issues on this board - I think you're out of your league when you assume to know anything about what I understand. Perhaps you should take your engineer background and apply that to what you do and don't know. Have you tested my knowledge? No, so perhaps you only have a small snippet of data (what's posted here) and should be a bit more conservative in your assumptions (like an engineer should).
3) But then again, you don't seem like an engineer - your consistent posts frame you as a person jerk. Worry not, I shan't be responding to you again - its like arguing with a child.

Kevin Kelley

yay more internet fights

"You always refer to the Genesis Coupe as bland, but I'm not really sure what that means. I think it stands out in the crowd, especially because its crowd of competitors is so small."

It means it could be from any Japanese/Korean manufacturer and fit in their lineup. It has zero distinctiveness and no design flair whatsoever. It's a very safe design. The Sti looks horrible.

"You're right, you said styling isn't objective, but your sentiments are that those who find the Camaro to be distasteful are simply wrong, which rebuts your original statement - hence my confusion with trying to comprehend what you say; typing one thing, then implying another."

My sentiments are simple- there are MANY people (probably tens of millions) who find the car attractive. The reviews of the concept, the response to the car in Transformers, the initial reviews of the production car and the sales verify this truth. Everyone is entitles to their opinion but it gets annoying when biased fools (not you) pop up repeatedly to state this car is ugly and in need of a redesign when the overall response to the car says the opposite. Simply put, the view that this car is the ugliest in the class and one of the worst looking on the road isn't shared by most people. I'm confused as to why I am getting lectured as if I just declared the Aztek or Crosstour is beautiful. There is ample evidence that my views are shared my many folks- enthusiasts and casual observers alike.

I dont know that I would call this car (or any) beautiful- I said its a nearly flawless exterior design. It's a concept car that regular people can afford.

"Now what is your employer again?"

WTF are you taling about? Never said it the first time. I did say that I don't work in an auto related industry and never have. Do you work for Ford?

"600 units last month are a spanking? What about the last 30 years? Ohh never mind"

Wasn't talking about the Mustang and the last 30 years are irrelevant to this generation of pony cars. Next.

"Your evasions and accusations about folks trying to get in good with IL and all of your other paranoid BS have finally driven a lot of us crazy. You are the worst kind of troll....one that does not know when it is time to go. You contribute nothing, but only trumpet your crazy crusade against IL and anybody who does not agree with you. Take a look at this thread and ask yourself if you are respected here. If you were capable of independent thought you would realize you need to change the way to speak to people.....come back with a new attitude and way of posting and maybe folks will listen to you at some point."

1. I'm not trying to earn your respect. I'd be ashamed if I ever got it.
2. I don't evade anything, I respond to whatever is posted.
3. I have no desire to speak to you in a friendly manner based on how you conduct yourself and the fact that you have proven yourself to be an unabashed liar and prone to personal attacks. When you can explain to me how you are qualified to make statements about my level of education perhaps I will think (briefly) about how I address you.
4. If you call agreeing with you "contributing" than you are correct that I have nothing to contribute. As far as I can tell you only like people who whine about auto bailouts and praise Ford. You're a two trick pony you don't talk about much else.

"2.) You lack adult communication skills, the ability to admit when you're wrong (instead you leave the conversation; Crosstour convo anyone?), or the ability to present any information or opinion without insinuating that those who differ from your opinion are blithering idiots."

You are hilarious. If I'm wrong I will let you know. I can't go back to every conversation to address the latest round of nonsense. I don't even know what you're referring to with the Crosstour but I probably didnt respond because the topic got pushed off the front page. Hate to burst your conspiracy theory bubble but I assure you I didnt refrain from responding because I was scared of you or Bodyblue or whomever else you are aligning yourself with today. What was the CT issue? Its funny that you remember my statements more than I do. I don't even know what CT comments you're talking about. Should I go back to month old posts to make sure I get the last word? better do that or I might be accused of disappearing in fear.

"This isn't a group of GM hating, BMW driving, import-butt-kissing people. That's not why people have seemingly "rallied against you."

If the shoe doesn't fit dont wear it. Obviously everyone doesn't have the same viewpoints but there seem to be many who are incapable of staking out any unpopular position. Its like they plan on being politicians one day.

"We're car enthusiasts. We like to read about them and talk about them. We also generally maintain a dose of respect for our fellow posters, as adults. When you fail to offer the same respect, you fail to get it. "

I respect those who can make adult level points. I don't have an issue with you so Im not clear why you are taking up the mantle for Bodyblue and his ilk. If I hurt your feelings, I apologize- I really don't spend much time replying to you but obviously you have a major issue. Forgive me and move on. I have no respect for certain folks for obvious reasons and I would question your rationality if you didnt direct some of your soapbox speech towards some very obvious targets. Its curious that you are so offended by what I'm saying but your defending a name calling, hostile, irrational, one topic specialist like BB. How does that work?

" I believe a step back and perhaps a bit of modesty would allow you to fit into this board much better."

Thanks for the tip.

"And, not understanding the issues on this board - I think you're out of your league when you assume to know anything about what I understand. Perhaps you should take your engineer background and apply that to what you do and don't know. Have you tested my knowledge? No, so perhaps you only have a small snippet of data (what's posted here) and should be a bit more conservative in your assumptions (like an engineer should). "

No my undertanding was clear. You jumped on the bandwagon by chastising me for associating one's degree with their qualifications to interpret style when I made no such assertion.

"Likewise with staunch personalities: why waste my time and effort trying to change their subjective view. Rather, I just let them make a fool of themselves - the world will slowly and consistently teach them a lesson. "

Exactly- hopefully you will learn yours and read carefully before going into attack mode. You're on the high horse being making condescending references to being immature and yet you didn't even realize in your quest to pile on that you were responding to things I never said. I've never believed in a strong correlation between a college degree and intelligence- plenty of folks have made it out of college without learning much.

"3) But then again, you don't seem like an engineer - your consistent posts frame you as a person jerk. Worry not, I shan't be responding to you again - its like arguing with a child."

I wont lose any sleep over it. So you feel maturity is jumping into the fray without knowing the facts, refusing to acknowledge you made a mistake and then bowing out when you realize you looked foolish? Interesting because to me thats the epitome of spoiled, child like behavior. And how the heck would you be able to determine anyone's profession or college degree type just by reading a few comments? What does an engineer "seem" like on a blog? Actually, my background is partially what makes me less tolerant of ambiguous subjective ratings so often employed by auto journalists to justify their biases.

"You are the worst kind of troll....one that does not know when it is time to go. "

LOL. When will it be time for you to go?

I can't stop laughing at this thread.

"Take a look at this thread and ask yourself if you are respected here. If you were capable of independent thought you would realize you need to change the way to speak to people.....come back with a new attitude and way of posting and maybe folks will listen to you at some point."

Bodyblue, you and I don't often agree, but I 100% agree with you here. Well said. For the regulars on the site, I can't think of a single poster besides 1487 who is clearly not respected largely because of his attitude and utter lack of self-awareness (and the blatant GM bias doesn't help).

"2.) You lack adult communication skills, the ability to admit when you're wrong (instead you leave the conversation; Crosstour convo anyone?), or the ability to present any information or opinion without insinuating that those who differ from your opinion are blithering idiots. "

Hehe.... case-in-point:

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/09/2010-gmc-terrain-button-rich-center-stack.html

So many other great points yellowmiata and thegraduate.

"What was the CT issue? Its funny that you remember my statements more than I do. I don't even know what CT comments you're talking about. Should I go back to month old posts to make sure I get the last word?"

Having posted it more than once, in more current threads, looking for answers, you refused to admit you were wrong; instead, you ignored it. That's fine, as it dings the precious credibility you might have as an informed poster.

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/09/2010-gmc-terrain-button-rich-center-stack.html#comments

Here, I'll link it. Enjoy the read. I won't expect a reply.

Bimmer, your post appeared after I made mine. Great minds think alike, and apparently, so do we. :)

"Bodyblue, you and I don't often agree, but I 100% agree with you here."

Very true but I always enjoy bantering with you because you know your stuff and are not a paranoid creep.

"I have no desire to speak to you in a friendly manner based on how you conduct yourself and the fact that you have proven yourself to be an unabashed liar"

Wow...really? I eagerly await your proof.

"I'm not trying to earn your respect. I'd be ashamed if I ever got it."

Proof again of your mental age...around 13.

"I don't have an issue with you so Im not clear why you are taking up the mantle for Bodyblue and his ilk."

I dont have an ilk or a following nor do I want one. Your statement is again proof of your mental age and mental problems. You have a huge persecution complex...and I think you love being the martyr...."look at poor me being ganged up on because I am right all the time"....you are one sick puppy.

"If I'm wrong I will let you know."

Yeah right....you never have even when proven so.....you solution is to evade and attack.

"WTF are you taling about? Never said it the first time. "

I am asking who you work for and where you got your supposed degree. It will be easy to check.

"I was scared of you or Bodyblue or whomever else you are aligning yourself with today."

Nobody aligns themselves with me or anybody....you are using your usual tactic of evasion and lying to change the subject to other than you.

The final fact is that even though you dont believe it, you are incredibly rude and arrogant in the way you post. If someone does not agree with you, you attack and belittle, then when proven wrong you dont post on that thread anymore. There is nobody ganging up on you....just several of us are tired of the way you act on here and wont let you get away with it anymore. We did not talk about you behind your back and plan this. But your statements on this thread were the final straw for a lot of us it seems. Go away and think about how you treat people.....it is obvious that you dont care about respect because you are incapable of earning it.

Tru dat, thegraduate.

Great minds, do indeed think alike as I agree totally with you on this one. This post is really getting to be really funny. Great entertainment, guys. Keep it up.

Being an aspiring journalist, I would've looked up the crosstour post had you guys not already put it up. Also, as an aspiring journalist, I have to quote 1487 here:

"I respect those who can make adult level points."

So what exactly is an adult level point, 1487?

"Hehe.... case-in-point:

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/09/2010-gmc-terrain-button-rich-center-stack.html"

I did not see that thread, Jay...very well done.

Hey 1487 why dont you respond to Jay in a reasonable manner and tell him he is correct this one time....because only you would not think so. His argument is spot on and correct and shows you to be clearly wrong. Here is your chance to be a real man...now man up and tell him he was correct in this instance.

""Stop lying"

About what? "

You accused me twice now of being a liar.....tell me when and where...put up or shut your hole. Your nazi tactics of making even bigger lies wont work with me or with anyone else it seems.

"Being an aspiring journalist, I would've looked up the crosstour post had you guys not already put it up. Also, as an aspiring journalist, I have to quote 1487 here:

"I respect those who can make adult level points."

So what exactly is an adult level point, 148"

You already know the answer to that question! LOL The answer is an adult point is one that agrees with his point of view! DUH LOL :)

OH NO! This thread is no longer on the top page! 1487 will have yet another excuse!

"Having posted it more than once, in more current threads, looking for answers, you refused to admit you were wrong; instead, you ignored it. That's fine, as it dings the precious credibility you might have as an informed poster."

Heh, you know he read it, he's just pretending that he didn't. I posted that list a mere 2 hours after he made that silly remark about "consistency".

I suspect he won't be back to this thread either.

"Bodyblue, you and I don't often agree, but I 100% agree with you here. Well said. For the regulars on the site, I can't think of a single poster besides 1487 who is clearly not respected largely because of his attitude and utter lack of self-awareness (and the blatant GM bias doesn't help)."

You nor anyone else has EVER been able to articulate a credible argument for "GM bias". If you have anything resembling proof feel free to share it. I point out inconsistencies in coverage that often lean towards the negative when GM vehicles are involved. That's not "bias" and saying otherwise suggests you don't understand what the word means. To be biased one has to make subjective arguments that are totally at odds with the facts in order to support one viewpoint. Fox News would be an example. Whatever I say about GM products (or others) is rooted in reality, not blind favoritism.

"Having posted it more than once, in more current threads, looking for answers, you refused to admit you were wrong; instead, you ignored it. That's fine, as it dings the precious credibility you might have as an informed poster."

What gives you the impression that I spend lots of time reading or dissecting your posts? I don't recall you mentioning this "many times" and if I didnt respond it was probably because you had nothing worth responding to. Again, its a little sad that you spend so much time worried about what I'm saying or how many times I respond to the same points. I will be sure to respond since this is of such concern to you and Bimmer.

"Wow...really? I eagerly await your proof."

Proof would be the fact that you said unequivically that I do not have an engineering degree and you have stated several dozen times that I work in the auto industry. Two complete lies posted by someone who has no personal knowledge of what I do or what my educational background may be. Need more examples of your lies?

"you are one sick puppy."

What does that makes someone who spends hours per day shadowing my posts and responding to me? Think about it.

"Yeah right....you never have even when proven so.....you solution is to evade and attack."

I know specifics arent your thing but I challenge you to cite a REAL EXAMPLE of when you proved me wrong and I failed to admit. JUST ONE will do. ANY EXAMPLE. ANYTHING.

"I am asking who you work for and where you got your supposed degree. It will be easy to check."

Provide that info about yourself. I most def will not be telling you where I work considering I'm posting on the internet. I would presume (may be a stretch) that you are smart enough to not reveal that info either.

"Nobody aligns themselves with me or anybody....you are using your usual tactic of evasion and lying to change the subject to other than you."

I never evade and I never change the subject. I stick to the subject. You continue to use words incorrectly, it's a little concerning. PRovide one example of evasion of the topic at hand. This entire thing for you is all about anti-GM feelings. Nothing more, nothing less. As far as I can tell you know little to nothing about cars, the industry, technology or anything else discussed in these threads. You only know one thing- you hate bailouts and GM and you hate anyone that doesn't share you hatred of GM. You have NO purpose other than that and you have demonstrated an acure lack of kncwledge of anything other than anti-GM talking points.

"There are more that I left out. So it looks to me like there is plenty of criticism from a variety of editors. You just can't deal with criticism of GM. You even posted in many of those threads, so either you're suffering from significant memory loss or you just choose to ignore the Honda's clear criticisms."

Here is the much vaunted line that has gotten Bimmerjay so much attention and adulation here. First of all I dont read most of the crosstour posts. I asked if they can come up with anything negative to say about the vehicle and Bimmerjay provided 10 examples in which minor criticisms were leveled against the vehicle. I don't follow it closely so I missed many of them. Overall, their impression of the vehicle has been positive and considering there have been 99 entries on the vehicle the fact that there have been about 10 semi-negative posts about it don't really prove much. Overall it has been praised effusively for doing basic things. ON top of that my ORIGINAL POINT was that I didnt see how the Terrain's stack was busy relative to any HOnda products. THAT POINT wasn't addressed by any of the well researched links posted by Bimmerjay. My original point was simple- a design feature that is widely accepted in a Honda comes up as a point of criticism in a GMC. Period.

Bimmer and his stunt double BB will be elated to know I went all the way back and responded to the infamous Terrain blog responses that have elevated Bimmer to instant hero. Feel free to read them. If I had known that so much relevance was being given to that one thread I would've responded a while ago. I didn't know you guys actively partroled and added comments to old threads.

"Heh, you know he read it, he's just pretending that he didn't. I posted that list a mere 2 hours after he made that silly remark about "consistency".

I suspect he won't be back to this thread either."

Wrong, as usual. Unlike you I eventually move on from these threads and read the new stuff. I just saw your "smackdown" for the ages a short time ago. I hand't been back to that thread since I really didn't have much more to add and I didnt think the discussion was all that riveting. If I don't respond to you it's because I didn't read your post or I just lost interest in trying to rationalize with you. It has no bearing on the strength of your arguments, none. If you actually go back and read the simple statement I made the point was that the Terrain was being criticized for something that is endemic to Honda dash designs and yet I didn't recall Honda/Acura products being faulted for button count. That's ALL I said and your 20 link epic response really had minimal relevance to my point. My initial comment wasn't even specifially aimed at the crosstour so I'm baffled as to why you and the peanut gallery were so excited about all your Crosstour references. I mentioned the Crosstour later and I shouldnt have said it got ONLY positive responses because there were some negative ones (although I hadnt read them or noted them due to lack of interest) but overall the tone for the crosstour has been to justify and defend its value and capability. I simply said the public hasnt embraced it which suggest potential buyers arent nearly as impressed as IL and the rest of the auto media.

1487, not that I would have ever expected you to admit you're wrong, but when multiple commenters that are substantially more objective and credible than you are all agree you're wrong, you are. It's kind of sad that you're the last person in the room to realize it.

"If you actually go back and read the simple statement I made the point was that the Terrain was being criticized for something that is endemic to Honda dash designs and yet I didn't recall Honda/Acura products being faulted for button count."

Despite changing the subject, you're still wrong. At least one of the links is dedicated to criticizing the Crosstour's button count. And I re-posted the "simple statement" that you made (twice actually) and clearly refuted it.

"although I hadnt read them or noted them due to lack of interest"

Then perhaps you shouldn't make incorrect statements of fact about things you are clearly uninformed about.