2010 GMC Terrain: Can You Trust Mr. Goodwrench?

Oh dear, Dan just pulled out the "I am an engineer" line. FYI, he also may have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

another dealer rip off

I have a question for you all. I have a brand new car, and plan on performing all of the factory maintenance at least while it is under warranty. My first recommended maintenance is at 4 months/5,000 miles whichever comes first - I've reached neither milestone quite yet.

I will hit 4 months at the end of this month, but I've only accumulated ~2,800 miles so far and may be around 3,200 or so when the interval hits. Is the period of time between changes really important when compared with the number of miles driven?

That is, should I do my vehicle's maintenance at the end of this month, or wait until I'm nearer the 5,000 mile mark?

Oil life monitor for me.

Oh, my Ford dealer does this 3 month 3000 mile sticker thing every time I have the oil changed there. I peel it off before I even leave their lot. They also send home these ridiculous estimated "report cards" for our cars showing us where they thing our oil life, tire wear, brake wear, etc are currently at. It's all based on the severe driving description from the manual which is for vehicles like taxi cabs and the like.

I really, really hate dealer service depts. Every one I've dealt with (Ford, Honda, Mazda) have been exactly the same. I understand they want to make money off of me but c'mon! I pity the people who fall for this crap too.

@mrb5091, miles are more important than months, especially when so few months are involved.

@baggs32: Don't forget the quick-lube outfits. They pull the same trick.

@jonmc: Absolutely false! I stayed at the St. Regis in Atlanta, and it was the night BEFORE last.

@mrb5091: I have to respectfully disagree with actualsize here... depending on when your vehicle was manufactured, the oil and filter could have been sitting in your vehicle for well over a year. I haven't done any oil analysis on new engines with much better QC & tolerances, but in the past, we dumped the first oil and filter at 1,000 miles.

But then again I tend to err on the side of caution and keep my cars for over a decade...

@mrb5091:

If 4mo/5k is indeed the longest service interval allowed by your owners manual, then it must be strictly adhered to for warranty purposes. In the event of an engine-related warranty claim, the dealer and the mfg's tech line is going to ask for proof that maintenance was performed in accordance to manufacturer's recommendations-- which in your case, is 4 mo or 5k, whichever comes first. If you do not follow that recommendation, you may face an uphill battle with the manufacturer, even if you are right-- and none of us have the time to fight a vehicle manufacturer.

I dumped the oil at 500, 1000, and 1500 miles in my brand new Mustang (2005) then used Mobil 1 and changed it every 7500. I am just old school but I wanted the break in oil out of the engine. My 98 Stratus (2.5 V6) gets its oil changed about every 3500-4500 miles however. It has 132k on it and I need it to last me a while longer. When I had the valve covers off two weeks ago it was sludge free, and I was very happy. I am down almost a quart at the 4500 mile mark but the valve covers were leaking so I bet my consumption will be less than that.

I think the stickers are just a failsafe. It's impossible for a service technician to tell exactly how many miles/when your particular car will need an oil change next. And I'm sure there are people out there who would find a way to sue them if they didn't inform them when the next service was due.... So they stick to a safe (and probably outdated, but you have to account for old cars running the cheapest dino oil) interval. With a lot of newer cars and owners using synthetics, oil life can be extended and shelf life becomes almost a non-issue. So just take the sticker as a reminder of the stupidity of other drivers or a time gone by.

@csubowtie: a) this car informs drivers when the next oil change is due, loud and clear - the technician or service writer need not bother with a prediction or a reminder; b) this sticker was imprinted with the specific mileage, date and oil type associated with a specific "work ticket" that was assigned to a known year/make/model/VIN number vehicle. They knew exactly what car this was going on. If this were a hand-written label, I might have conceded your point. I do agree on the forgetfulness of some drivers, though, especially if we were talking about a car without an oil minder system.

I run synthetic oil in every vehicle I own(ZTR mowers included). Used oil analysis has shown that I can easily go 7000 miles between changes with my MS3 and 8500 miles with my wife's X3 2.5. That said, I change the oil every 5000 miles in the MS3 and every 7500 miles in the X3. I like to have a significant safety cushion...

Heck no you don't trust Mr. Goodwench. 3k miles can kiss my butt in any new car. Except during break in.

I had my oil changed at Midas and they put the normal 3 months, 3k miles sticker in. I saw it and talked to the manager (a friend of mine) and told him that was silly. So he asked what I wanted, and I told him 10k, just so I would know when to pay more attention than usual to the oil. So we switched the stickers out, no problem.

@roadburner: GM doesn't want to pay warranty claims, especially for expensive items like engines, so the Terrain's in-car predictive "oil analysis" system almost certainly includes a significant safety cushion, too. The labs that do oil analyses typically cater to big commercial fleets that depend on reliability for profitability, so I imagine their lab results also include a significant safety cushion. You're probably working with a very significant safety cushion.

@actualsize:

What are your thoughts on situations when oil analysis labs return with results that do not agree with the manufacturer's recommended service interval?

I think there have been instances where users have analyzed conventional oil after a short, 5,000 miles interval on GM Direct-Injected Engines and the GM Oil Life System predicted over 50% oil life remaining, but Blackstone Labs clearly stated that the oil did not have much life remaining.

@fuhteng

I asked the service manager where I bought our Equinox what interval they recommened, and he said 5000 mi. I then asked if I needed to do it sooner in particular than that after break-in. He said no, it was a waste of money. The engines are machined so precisely these days he said it wasn't needed anymore. He recommended doing the change at 5k intervals and be done with it (similar advice comes from Click & Clack). I had no problem with that advice and the dealer so far has been quite honest and competent the few times I've had to take the 'Nox in.

The Mazda dealer I go to though still had 3k/3 months on the oil change sticker, even though Mazda recommends 7500 mi. Go figure.

3mo/3kmi was heeded when cars were disposed after 50k miles (~40 years ago?). Times have changed, but Jurassic service departments haven't. It's a shame, especially with the new types of clientele that the domestics want.

dealers somply stick to this because they have been using that interval for years and more service means more money. Its that simple. If your car has an oil life monitor than you should use it and bring in the car when neccessary. Owner's manuals are pretty detailed so if there is a need to change oil early (and there isnt) it would be documented in the manual. I dont doubt that there are people who still take their cars in every 3k miles or so. The intervals depend on your driving environment, with city driving you arent going to make it 10k miles. My last two cars were good for 5k-6k miles between changes due to lack of highway driving.

@1487: I agree on all counts. Furthermore, dealers are independent of the automaker and can more or less do what they want. They're not all alike on this point, though.

@sodaguy: That's a tough one. One one hand, oil lab analysis is an actual chemical analysis of a sample, while the oil life monitor is using ECU sensors to predict oil life. They're similar, but different. I'd tend to side with the lab results in that case. Also, direct-injected engines such as those you allude to oftentimes require fuels and oils with a higher-grade of certain additives. If the user didn't realize that and didn't follow the recommendations, then oil life could be shortened by parameters not monitored by such an oil life system. This engine is not direct-injected, so I doubt that possibility here.

@actualsize: Thanks for the opinion. Most of the issues have been with the 3.6L DI engine found in the Lambda SUVs, such as the Traverse in the fleet. However, the 2.4L Ecotec in the Terrain is direct injected.

What exactly was out of spec according to the lab results? Was it just low TBN or was it too much fuel in gasoline?

@sodaguy: *slaps forehead* Oh, yeah. Duh. I'm one generation on my Ecotech thinking. Call it Friday afternoon afternoon senility. Anyway, you've already guessed my post for next week, in which I withdraw a sample and send it to the lab for comparison to the OLS prediction.

Make sure you do the HOT OIL FLUSH when you change the oil.
And get an ultrasonic fuel injector CLEANER too.
And don't forget to replace the air on the tires with NITROGEN.
While you are at it, add the touch-up PAINT SEALER and a re-application of the impermeable SEAT PROTECTION.
You may want to replace those weak bulbs for X-tra-Ray Double Vision Xenon Bulbs (10% more light) and never, ever, forget the under body sealant.

I meant too much gasoline in the oil....

Crackhead: Don't forget to have them check the blinker fluid and have the horn oiled too.

actualsize:

The UOAs on the X3 show that the TBN is 1.0 or below by 9,000 miles- and the results are the same no matter whether I run a BMW LL-01 oil(Mobil 1 0W-40) or an HDEO(Mobil 1 5W-40). With the BMW SI/CBS systems calling for an oil change at @15,000 I consider a 7,500 OCI to be essential.
In contrast, the DI turbo in my Mazdaspeed3 has yet to exhibit any evidence of fuel contaminating the oil, even after a three day HPDE. Note that I run an HTO-06 synthetic(Mobil 1 5W-30) in that application.

@roadburner: The X3 results are perplexing, and I don't disagree with your strategy in the face of your TBN results. How many miles are on this one?

actualsize:

My first UOA for the X3 was a 9,378 mile OCI with 40,229 miles on the engine. I was running M1 0W-40 and the TBN was 1.4. My most recent UOA was a 7,932 mile OCI with 96,491 miles on the engine. The oil was M1 5W-40 and the TBN was 1.5. There is no evidence of fuel, coolant, or water in the oil. The wear metals look great; the numbers are anywhere from 75% to 25% of the universal averages. The TBN issue is the only thing that keeps me from running an extended OCI.

Can't blame them for trying to make some money. If something's worn below 50%, they'll probably recommend replacing it.

I was kinda impressed to notice my mechanic put 5,000 miles on the sticker. Talking to him, he's firmly against believing the oil life calculator on my previous car, a Chevy. Well, at least he's a bit more realistic on his estimates than the mechanics/techs who just default to 3,000.

I suppose if you want to be less cynical, you can believe that they're not doing this to generate sales, but rather simply because their fathers taught them decades ago that changes come every 3000 miles and that's just what they know. Click and Clack, the car talk guys, will back me on my assertion that most bad car knowledge is passed from fathers to sons.

"Maybe GM ought to have the HR department talk with this particular Mr. Goodwrench guy because, frankly, he can't be trusted and he's attempting to rip people off and/or he doesn't understand the workings of the very cars he's supposed to repair.

Wow. A nice bold statement there stating that you getting "ripped off", and the whole oil company conspiracy. Do you wear tin hats to bed at night as well?

Get over it. It's a suggestion by the dealership service department, I don't see anywhere on that sticker that says "3/3 or ELSE!".

The typical sticker that gets placed on my window has a 3 dollar off coupon on it as well, so $~17 bucks every 3 months on a Saturday or Sunday morning isn't going to kill anyone. (Considering people spend more on Starbucks, fast food and tobacco in an entire week) And typically that sticker reminds of tire-rotations as well, something the car WILL NOT tell you.

I change the oil in the Yukon when the computer gets to 10%. Seems to be about 7k on average but I haven't kept detailed notes. I used to change the Mazda3 2.0 at 5K but switched to 7500. I do use synthetic. Maybe not necessary but I reckon I save a lot of money from the longer intervals and doing it myself, might as well spring for the good stuff, and a decent filter.

My Mazda dealer gives me free 5000 mile oil changes for as long as I own the car, so I let them do it. The rest of my cars get their oil changed in my garage.

Wow! They tell you only 3k for that N/A hog? This is 2010, right? It should be able to go at least 5,000 on a change. I don't believe in oil life monitors, just go by mielage. With my 08 MS3 I do changes every 5,000 miles with Shell Rotella T6 (full synthetic, direct injection formulated) 5w-40 and a purolator pure one filter.