That's it, I'm done with big wheels. Every time I roll over the slightest ripple in the pavement, I can feel these monstrous 20-inch wheels with their massive low-profile Pirelli P Zeroes unsettling the chassis. Pretty much what you'd expect, since each wheel and tire weighs, what, 500 pounds? (We'll have to weigh one.)
Designers love the big tire thing. They say a big wheel makes a car look planted on the road. For me, these big wheels make every car a cartoon, a kind of life-size Hot Wheels.
Listen, it's great to put all that tire on the road in the corners, but there's also unsprung weight to consider. It takes quite a lot of damper control to rein in a heavyweight wheel and tire, and too much of the time this Camaro's tires spend so much time bounding over the bumps that cornering grip is pretty much a moot point since you can't corner if your tires are in the air. And let's not even talk about the power absorbed by simply keeping them rolling.
The irony is, the original Hot Wheels got their name in 1968 because they were faster than the British-built Matchbox die-cast cars of the time. Harry Bradley, the designer who styled the first Hot Wheels (a dark-blue Camaro was among the first 16), told me that he and the other Mattel designers spent a lot of time rolling the cars up and down the hallway at their office in El Segundo until they came up with a Delrin plastic bushing to interface between the springy wire axle and the plastic wheels.
The Camaro puts down some impressive numbers on the skidpad and there's sure to be a payoff on the race track, yet every time I register a jounce in the suspension, I get the feeling that the car is slowing down. Car designers might like the Hot Wheels look, but in a full-size scale, you get a car that feels slower, not faster.
Michael Jordan, Executive Editor @ 19,075 miles
zcalvert says:
03:17 PM, 07/28/10
1: According to Dan's suspension walk-around, fronts weigh 63lbs, rears are 67.5lbs.
2: The reason so many cars have them is because many designers do a bad job with cars' proportions so the huge wheels are necessary to keep the car from looking like a blob sitting on top of skateboard wheels. It's certainly not performance - look at any number of racing series for evidence.
pe_tor says:
03:29 PM, 07/28/10
After bringing up the belt-line so much that it's up to the chin of any regular sized person sitting up front, they need all that wheel so it doesn't look like it's on roller skate wheels.
So, we get something that's great to look at and had a very strong body, yet has an obscene amount of unsprung weight and sprung weight, and you can kinda, sorta, slightly see out of it too.
eville_stu says:
03:32 PM, 07/28/10
I agree with this post, I think the trend toward bigger wheels is silly and doesn't necessarily make the cars look better and gains in grip are offset by weight and ride quality. Another negative aspect to this trend besides those mentioned is tire cost, each additional inch of tire costs $$.
dman says:
03:33 PM, 07/28/10
maybe upgrading the suspension will help
inlinesix says:
04:20 PM, 07/28/10
Isn't the Camaro kind of a life-size hot-wheels car anyway?
dg0472 says:
05:07 PM, 07/28/10
Amen Mr. Jordan. Amen (and pe_tor).
herrstreet says:
05:34 PM, 07/28/10
The wheels on the SS do look so much better than the base (18's?). My G8 has the 19's and they really doubloon a he'll of a lot better than the standard wheel. I can't imagine needing a bigger size though and the G8 is probably more massive visually than a camaro.
jederino says:
05:49 PM, 07/28/10
Zcalvert and Pe-tor are right - designers are stuck building sporty cars on shared platforms that are huge. The upshot is a very competitive price for the performance, but still...
subytrojan says:
06:08 PM, 07/28/10
Love the info about Hot Wheels development!
hybris says:
08:29 PM, 07/28/10
If I wanted 20in rims then my tire would be along the lines of 325/85/R20 at least.
majin_ssj_eric says:
10:38 PM, 07/28/10
I'm so sick of all the "big wheel" bashing. 20" wheels look great and thats all I really care about. 10 years ago you couldn't get car makers to put 17's on their cars and now they are coming with 20's standard. I think its great and absolutely makes the look of the Camaro SS (have you seen a base one with the 18's? Its hideous)...
wrinklebump says:
11:05 PM, 07/28/10
I rode in a Camaro with dubs and found the ride right agreeable. Also, in black that car really just screams
scottyscooter says:
03:50 AM, 07/29/10
"have you seen a base one with the 18's? Its hideous..."
*shrug*
I actually like the look of the car with the base 18 "heritage" wheels. My favorite factory wheel for the Camaro is the 18" silver wheel that comes on the 1LT. When I was considering getting a Camaro I was pretty bummed out that all SS’s came with 20” rims. I was even looking into downsizing aftermarket or trying to trade with someone who had the 18” from the factory but the brakes would have gotten in the way of that.
I guess I’m “old school” because the idea of cars coming from the factory with 20”+ wheels just seems kind of crazy to me. I’m definitely having a hard time getting used to it.
roar02ram says:
05:26 AM, 07/29/10
Yup, 20s officially jumped the shark when they became standard equipment on the Toyota Venza V6.
1487 says:
06:04 AM, 07/29/10
The camaro doesnt look as bad as most cars do with the base rims. The 18s look acceptable but I cant see buying the car with those wheel after seeing the 20s. The car has been praised for its ride quality so I'm confused by the complaints here. I drove one for a short time on city streets and the ride was compliant, not much worse than my car. There is no way I would've known the car rides on 20s based on the ride quality or noise levels. The reality is that suspension tuning and platform rigidity have come a long way and now a car with 20s can ride decently. In the 80s or 90s large wheels may have spelled trouble but they dont anymore. As for unsprung weight- this car has 426hp and weighs 3900lbs so I don't think the wheels are really a dealbreaker in terms of handling.
ptcdawg says:
07:58 AM, 07/29/10
BIG HUGE WHEELS...are just silly, make a car slower and you get lower gas mileage as a bonus.
andersendl says:
08:16 AM, 07/29/10
Dubs are for posers, pure and simple. You rarely see serious racers running 'em on the track because of the detrimental effect the higher rotational mass and weight penalty has on handling, braking and performance in general.
majin_ssj_eric says:
08:34 AM, 07/29/10
Who the hell said anything about racing? My car will never see a track but I sure like it looking good when I drive to the store and back. Why do you think the concept cars always look so good? Because they put huge wheel/tire combos on them! The Camaro concept that everybody fell in love with in the first Transformers movie had 22's I believe. I'm just glad Chevy decided to give us at least 20's to preserve some of the concept's look.
Btw, anyone who truly believes the base Camaro with the stupid looking 18's looks better than the SS is probably too old to be taken completely seriously. Same with the Challenger base vs. the SRT-8. Big wheels look better. Period.
adamb1 says:
08:42 AM, 07/29/10
My Ram 1500 QC HEMI has factory 20" wheels. It is on its 3rd set of break pads, 2nd set of rotors, 2nd set of shocks, and 4th set of tires in 75,000 miles. Hit an expansion joint and the normal axle hop you get in a truck turns into tire dribble. The truck looks nice with big wheels and tires but there is certainly a handling and ride penalty not to mention that the tires run $1,000 - $1,200 per set depending on brand.
jeepsrt says:
08:47 AM, 07/29/10
I drove an SS Camaro in downtown Denver and thought the ride was pretty good, only thing I'm dreading is replacing the tires on my SRT8 Jeep, around $450.00 a piece. :(
ttopjohn says:
08:59 AM, 07/29/10
Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about big wheels on new cars if you don't like them. Unless you're willing to stick with older cars drawn before high belt lines and train tunnel sized wheel arches became the fashion. One nice side effect of driving older vehicles is that you can run a more reasonable size and still have it look right - one reason my 4th gen Camaro loses a lot less power through the drivetrain than a 5th gen Camaro.
If all we're talking about is a wheel itself, I generally like a 16 to 18 inch wheel. 18" seems plenty big, as I developed my enthusiast habits when 16" was big and 17" was exotic.
But you don't make wheel choices in isolation, you make them in concert with car and tire choices. These are my general preferences, and there are exceptions, but I prefer 15" on a car from 1960 to 1979, a 16" on a car from 1980 to 1985, 17 from 86 to 95, and a max of 18" from 95 to the present. Today, I'll go with the smallest possible wheel that still looks right on the vehicle. The Audi A4/S4 and the BMW 3/M3 look good with 18"s, something the designers should be commended for. The new Camaro sadly does look best with the 20" wheels. Though I'd be tempted to try an aftermarket 19" - most of the look, still clear the brakes, a bit more sidewall and less weight? Sitll like the car, it wouldn't stop me from buying it, but in a perfect world they would have designed the thing to have full wheel wells on 18" wheels and barely be able to fit a 19"
Tires are another consideration - many of the latest high performance tires aren't available in a broad array of 16" sizes. Will they eventually be 17"+ only? Will 17" tire choices face a similar fate in the coming years?
bodyblue says:
09:18 AM, 07/29/10
The Camaro is so searingly ugly it makes no difference what size wheel it has. It just looks more like a cartoon blob with the 20s than with the 18s. I saw one in that bright green color the other day....and burst out laughing along with my wife and boys in the car........the dude driving it flipped us off and did a burn out to show us how cool he really was in is Jell-0 colored Chevy.....Camaro owners sure are touchy! Just because a Kia Soul wears the color better is not my fault!
makakio says:
10:42 AM, 07/29/10
I dig the way they look, but living with 20s and 40-series rubber (or less) on these CA roads would be a deal-breaker in itself. Add to that the loss of real-world performance over lighter / smaller setups and all I'm left with is hunting for performance rides that don't look ridiculous with 18s or less...
1487 says:
10:59 AM, 07/29/10
"BIG HUGE WHEELS...are just silly, make a car slower and you get lower gas mileage as a bonus."
on a 426hp 3900lb coupe you are kidding yourself if you think smaller wheels would lead to measurable acceleration or efficiency gains. If this were a Yaris I might agree with you.
"You rarely see serious racers running 'em on the track because of the detrimental effect the higher rotational mass and weight penalty has on handling, braking and performance in general. "
This is a race car?
makakio:
What evidence have you seen that the Camaro (or any large powerful car) performs better with smaller wheels? I've seen none.
"Same with the Challenger base vs. the SRT-8."
Thank you. The Challenger is a joke with the 18s.
"The Camaro is so searingly ugly it makes no difference what size wheel it has. It just looks more like a cartoon blob with the 20s than with the 18s. "
Oh, good one! Must be why no one's buying it....oh wait never mind.
half_ton says:
11:03 AM, 07/29/10
I think 19's are an ideal compromise of looks, performance and ride comfort. Interesting post though. If anyone is interested check out this article by Car and Driver on this same subject:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/10q1/effects_of_upsized_wheels_and_tires_tested-tech_dept
ptcdawg says:
11:34 AM, 07/29/10
1487, your claim of it not being slower would easy to verify. EVERY test I've seen of cars, when they are run on smaller wheels, they are faster and get better fuel economy. You may be right, that a more powerful car might not notice it, but the physics of it seem the same to me.
Frankly, my main gripe is how expensive tires have gotten for these new HUGE wheels. That and I just don't like the tiny sidewall look.
bimmerjay says:
11:34 AM, 07/29/10
Having 20" wheels wouldn't be so bad if they weren't a heavy cast aluminum design. A supposed performance car should be using a forged or otherwise lighter-weight alloy design if it's going to go 19"+, like the Nissan 370Z's 19" forged Rays. Otherwise you get saddled with 60-70 lbs (!!) of bricks at each corner. But it comes at a price and people generally just want their dubs as cheaply as possible.
I'll tell you one thing though... with this trend of ginormous wheels continuing the tire manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank. Low profile tires wear out faster and are more prone to damage requiring replacement, plus they are a higher-margin product with a higher up-front cost. Win-win for them!
lostboyz says:
11:40 AM, 07/29/10
the mustang looks just fine with 18s
roadburner says:
11:45 AM, 07/29/10
I had a 2008 Alpina B7 press loaner fitted with 21" wheels. The ride was remarkably smooth. The new F01 based B7 also gets 21" wheels; I'm interested to see how it rides and handles.
According to "Super Chevy" magazine, downsizing the 2010 Camaro wheels will provide a small increase in performance- of course that's assuming all you care about is accelerating in a straight line:
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/completebuilds/sucp_1005_tune_time_camaro_weight_reduction/index.html
You'd have to be a real idiot to downsize the brake after adding an additional 124 rwhp. Maybe the magazine should be renamed "Stupid Chevy"...
ttopjohn says:
02:37 PM, 07/29/10
I will say that the majority of cars I have driven with OE installed 20" or larger wheels actually ride and handle just fine. Camaro included. But in particular, the E65 and F01 BMWs come to mind, similar to what roadburner notes above though I haven't had the pleasure of the B7. But think how much better they'd be with lighter wheels, lighter tires, and a bit more sidewall.
onramp says:
11:27 PM, 07/29/10
I'm not crazy about the big wheels look, either. That said, I think there is a certain threshold for clearance where it comes to high performance brakes. When you get to a fast *and* heavier car, you're gonna need the big disc rotors and the robust calipers to generate the appropriate braking force and keep doing so w/o fade (more important for track duty, rather than street duty). That combo of hardware on a 3600+ lb car puts it just outside what you can fit inside an 18" rim...hence, the move to 19" or 20" rims.
Naturally, the penalty is increased unsprung weight which impacts a bit of suspension dynamics. Additionally, it presents increased rotational mass, beyond just the static weight. So that will be a small penalty to acceleration. So you end up needing even more hp to be as fast as you expect for that kind of hp, because you are now committing considerable energy just to rapidly spin-up those big wheels. So it comes down to if you need the clearance for brake hardware, then you need the clearance, but it will come at a penalty, so it better be worth it (or use expensive light-weight rims, at the risk of durability for street use). That is why you want to keep the car light, so you don't have to use big disc rotors and big brakes and big rims to fit around them.
If you are running around with big rims with undersized brakes that do not even fill out that clearance, that is just pointless. It's going to be slower, worse handling, and worse braking than you could have had with a smarter choice in smaller wheels.
bodyblue says:
04:42 AM, 07/30/10
"Oh, good one! Must be why no one's buying it....oh wait never mind. "
There is no accounting for taste. And remember GM sold lots of cars the first year or two before they turned out to be really bad cars....Vega...Citation.....Celebrity......Omega.....as a matter of fact GM sold more cars than anybody right before the went bankrupt.....so forget the sales argument, it has no bearing on the quality of a product. The LT Camaro has had some severe problems but lets wait a year or three and we will see about the sales and quality then. Mustang sales are right with the New Camaro....not bad for a near 6 year old design. And with better quality to boot.
northsparrow says:
12:29 PM, 08/ 5/10
These huge wheels that are so fashionable these days remind me of the jeans people
wore back in the 70s. They were called bell-bottoms or wide-legs and unless the
legs of your pants rendered your entire foot invisible you were horribly uncool.
When people driving family vehicles like the Ford Flex and Venza realize that a replacement tire
costs nearly double for a 19" rim compared to the 15" rims they are used to then the 'fashion'
might change.
Speaking of the 70s, I saw a BMW 2002 recently on its original 13" wheels.
How uncool is that?