2010 Honda Accord Crosstour: Adding Some Oil

So, what generally causes excessive oil consumption?

If there is not oil leakage, then it is being burned and expelled from the exhaust system or, heaven forbid, into the cooling system.

It can't be rings,can it? Because all new engines have very high compression ratios, I would assume that the rings must be doing their job.

So, what is causing it?

I have the same question as ed124c. I've never had a car or my parents have had a car with drinks oil, except the Corvette which just leaks. My G35 has never needed more oil, with 49k miles. Somehow I don't think the front pads have been changed either, but I could be wrong about that.

Something is definitely wrong with this. this car has less than 6000 miles and it needed to add a qt of oil? I had read in the forum that Odesseys also have similar problems and apparently Honda isn't doing much about it. A design flaw somewhere that takes too much $ to correct? Glad I never really wanted a Honda except for the Accord Coupe V6 and S2000.

New entries in the weekend? Nice nice, keep it up like that, !!

First the Terrain and now this? Geez...

A quart every 5000 miles is no big deal, certainly not cause for concern. Some cars use less, some more but all cars burn some oil. That's how engines are designed.

Oil consumption is really only an issue if it starts changing. If the distance traveled between top ups starts decreasing then you have a problem coming your way eventually.

I think that is a bit high for a newer engine. My 2.5 V6 with 130k on it burns about 1/2 to 3/4 of a quart in 5000 miles. ( I change it between 3 and 5 k) A half a quart should be more like it.

Oh, the horror! Given all the concern over (slightly) high oil consumption, would someone at IL put together some stats on oil use for a variety of cars?

Given the engine in this car is still a bit "fresh" even with 5000+ miles on the odo, the "oil consumption issue" is normal for new Honda's and should cease with more milage and an oil change. Our 2005 Odyssey Touring and our 03 Acura CL-S 6MT used oil but they both don't use any currently.

I don't think 5000 miles per quart is all that bad; I certainly wouldn't call it "excessive".
And selling a one year old car because of that level of oil consumption? I didn't realize that the thought of having to add oil yourself was so terrifying...

First of all, excessive oil consumption is usually defined as more than 1 quart every 1000 miles. Some manufacturers might spec more or less, but there you go. I know that Honda, Nissan/Infiniti and Porsche all say that 1 qt/1000 miles is perfectly normal (I believe Porsche may have allowed for 1 qt every 1000 km on some 911s).

Oil consumption (not leaks) in the engine usually takes place through two different avenues. The first, and less likely on a new car, is the consumption of oil vapor from the crankcase, through the PCV system. With a good working PCV system, and no unusual driving behavior (Honda S2000s on race tires in high G right hand turns would push oil so far up the valve cover that some would be sucked into the intake manifold, causing a nice plume of smoke for 100-200 ft), this should not occur.

The more likely method of oil consumption is through the rings. No matter how good the ring package on a car, there is going to be a ring gap. Additionally, the oil scraper ring can not always remove all the oil. The rest is really down to how tight the ring gap is, how high a ring tension the oil ring runs, the operating range of the engine and the volatility of the oil.

I happen to know that Honda tends to run very low tension oil rings to improve fuel economy (ring friction makes up a big part of internal engine losses). On its higher revving engines (not so much the V6's), Honda also runs a little larger than average compression ring gap. Additionally, Honda runs its ring package very high on the piston to reduce crevice volume, which is a source of HC emissions, this can result in some rocking and sealing deterioration at high rpm. Finally, the V6 Hondas these days are all running 0w20 or 5w20, which has to be a bit more volatile than a heavier oil.

I think you'll also find that engines that are revved more tend to burn more oil, as ring sealing tends to deteriorate at higher rpms. I know that if I drive 500 miles in my S2000 with the cruise control on the freeway, it burns almost no oil. But if I spend the day at the racetrack between 7k and 9k rpm, I burn about a quart/1k miles or more. OTOH, my Tahoe might see the far side of 4k rpm once a month or so and it never burns any measurable oil between changes.

In summary, 1 qt/5k miles is pretty good for a modern engine, especially with today's focus on fuel economy/emissions and the attendant compromises made in engine design for those reasons. To put it another way, 5500 miles on the Crosstour is probably between 150 and 200 hours of operating time. At an average engine speed of 2500 rpm, that equates to over 22 million revolutions With 3 firing events per revolution, that's 66 million combustion events. That's about 0.000015 cc of oil per combustion event.

Burning a little bit of oil isn't bad at all. It only becomes bad if someone never checks between oil changes.

church123: Thank you for the great info. Does low friction rings = low tension?

My 09 Honda Fit burned oil the first 10,000 miles or so, about 1/4 quart per 5,000 miles. Now at 25,500, it doesn't burn any oil.

Yes, low friction is basically the same as low tension

This oil consumption seems excessive to me. I have never had a new vehicle that has consumed oil during break in. My 2009 Ford Escape has 36,000 kilometres currently and other than changing the oil for maintenance it has never had to have a top off between service visits. Even my 1994 Escort at 194,000 kiometres never had to have top offs between service visits!

My vehicles only drink oil when I'm hard on them, and thats going back 30+ years.

So it costs $5-$10 extra every 5,000 miles?

Seriously, who cares.

It's not a cost thing at all. I would worry that down the road problems could arise. Has this always been a common thing on Honda engines or is it a more recent thing?

All this anguished hand-wringing over 5000 miles per quart?
Please...

It is kind of a lot!
I've just added a quarter of a bottle to my GTI MK6 after 3000 ml. I was told it is normal for a car to use some extra oil during brake-in period, but in case of this Honda it shouldn't be this much:(

I agree with what sreed said, and it's not about how much additional cost per 5000 miles.

And texases has a very good point as well. I sure would like to see if all modern engines (pretty much almost all of them use 5W20 or thinner oil now-a-day) have similar oil consuming issues (ok... oil consuming "characteristics").

I know roadburner, crazy, isn't it? For all those people who are worried, please, do some more reading on oil consumption, don't take my word for it. Piston engines will consume some oil over time. Even if the rings sealed perfectly, you would lose some oil to volatility burn off.

Formula 1 engines of recent vintage would consumer 2-3 quarts of oil per race. BMW's S54 engine (E46 M3) would drink a fair bit of oil. The average Honda F20C (S2000) uses some too. As another poster put it, when you're hard on the engine, it'll use some oil.

BTW, even if you think your engine uses no oil between change intervals, I invite you try this test. Take a sample of oil at your next oil change and send it in for analysis. Then marvel at how much fuel contamination you have. Your oil at the end of its lifecycle isn't all oil anymore. Some of it has been burned off and replaced with other stuff. If you check oil without sufficiently heating the engine, there will also be a fair bit of water in the crankcase from condensation - especially in cool seasons and moist climates.

church123:

Some of these people would pee their pants if they owned my 318ti track rat; it has consumed a quart of Mobil 1 every 2500-3500 miles ever since it was new, yet it's still running strong at 121,000 miles. And back in the 1980s BMW stated that 800 miles per quart was acceptable. My MS3 doesn't use much between 5000 mile changes, but if it was down a quart or so at 5000 miles I wouldn't worry one bit. Sheesh...

Just did a cursory google search for "oil add" on Edmunds. Here is a non-exhaustive list of all the cars in the long term fleet that required oil additions between services:

GMC Terrain
Chevrolet C5 Corvette Z06 (provenance of used car unknown)
BMW 135
BMW E92 M3
BMW X5 4.8
BMW 750i
Honda Crosstour
Nissan 370Z
Pontiac G8 GT (2.5 quarts in 11.5k miles according to Erin's post)
Audi R8 (needed 1 qt halfway through the 10k mile oil change interval)
Audi A4 Avant
Mazda 6i
Cadillac CTS (1.3 quarts at 6600 miles)

There is more, but I stopped after a couple pages of links.

Clearly, modern engines, if you check them frequently and have long oil change intervals (7500+ miles), are going to use some oil. If you change every 3k miles like in the old days, maybe there won't be anything noticeable.

Thanks Church. The insanity on this thread regarding oil-consumption-fear is mind-boggling.

Oil consumption is a normal characteristic for many vehicles, can vary dramatically with how a vehicle is driven, and can even vary based upon construction variations.

Joe

Great info as always church. It's nice to hear some expert opinion.

Thanks church123 for providing info, however, it's hardly an expert opinion but just one's opinion from reading stuffs on the internet.

And any concern over oil consumption shouldn't be considered insanity. You just formed an opinion that it shouldn't be a concern, however, to some it could mean a great deal. And just because some 318ti burns a lot of oil doesn't make it a great sample to represent every engine. My car has over 150,000 miles on it and it hasn't required me to add any oil since day one in between oil change and I have had oil changed on it every 5000-7000 miles. Oh yeah, it's still running strong as well.

"Thanks church123 for providing info, however, it's hardly an expert opinion but just one's opinion from reading stuffs[sic] on the internet."

You really don't know who you are talking about, do you?
Hint: you are bringing a water pistol to a thermonuclear exchange.

"And any concern over oil consumption shouldn't be considered insanity."

Any concern over a car using one quart of oil every 5000 miles IS insanity.

"And just because some 318ti burns a lot of oil doesn't make it a great sample to represent every engine."

And just where did I say my ti made a "great sample"? That's right, I didn't. I just imagined how some of the Chicken Littles in this thread would squawk if they had to add(or more likely, pay someone to add) a quart of Mobil 1 every 2500 miles. They'd probably need more than Depends, come to think of it.

"My car has over 150,000 miles on it and it hasn't required me to add any oil since day one in between oil change and I have had oil changed on it every 5000-7000 miles. Oh yeah, it's still running strong as well."

Goody for you; how does that prove that oil consumption of 5000 miles per quart is either abnormal or has an adverse effect on engine longevity? Or 2500 miles per quart for that matter?

@alman08

It's not just opinion. The information is readily available. And I did invite anyone who is really concerned to educate themselves on oil consumption. Start with an oil analysis on your own car. Also spend a little time on bobistheoilguy.com for a basic introduction to lubricant technology.

And while I don't like to refer to myself as an expert in anything, my career involves spending a lot of time working with internal combustion engines. I'd like to think I'm pretty successful in said career, and have done work for several OEM auto manufacturers, an oil company, and a variety of national champion and record holding race teams. So, maybe not an expert, but probably a little more than just "some guy". :)

p.s. - alman08, do you do your own oil changes? (I often take my under warranty cars to the dealer myself) I ask because if you aren't doing your own oil changes, you may not know how much oil is left at the changeover.

alman08: you might want to check into church's background before making comments like that.

I agree with the folks saying 1 qt/5k miles isn't anything to worry about.

At the same time, my personal experience (e.g., not a scientific study on the matter :) ) has long been cars that don't burn any oil -- until very recently. Yes, I suppose it could be fuel oil dilution keeping the levels high (though if there's a quart of fuel getting in there every 5k miles that WOULD worry me).

Cars that I've owned that burned oil: 74 BMW 2002 until I got a remanufactured engine (leaking past the valve guide seals, leaving a James Bond-esque smoke screen behind on throttle lift), 2009 Audi A4 Avant.

Cars that I've owned that didn't burn oil (at a noticeable level over 5k OCIs): Saab 9-5, BMW 318ti, BMW 323iT, Acura TSX, Honda CRX, Toyota Camry -- all 90s to late 2000's vintages.

Makes me wonder if getting to Bin 5/ ULEV II /etc. plus evolving CAFE regs has caused some changes (as discussed above) that have caused oil consumption to go back up after a period of cars that didn't consume much.

So I think many people have probably gone their entire car-owning lives without every needing to add a quart. But obviously, looking at the Edmunds test fleet, those days may be gone.

@church, thanks for the info. I have submitted a couple oil samples to a lab from my G35, and each time the lab encourages me to try extending the range between changes - now suggesting a 6,000 mile interval and testing again. Is that a marketing tool to keep my samples coming?! Also, my G35 consumes 10 oz per 1,000 miles. Since I am gradually adding new oil over the interval, would you be comfortable extending the oil change interval? Last question, should I avoid trying to get the oil to the top of the safe range, in case I overshoot and add too much? Thanks!

church123, I didn't mean to offend you in that way about your profession. however, the info that you put on here was certainly something I had read on internet blogs about oil consumption and it's purely just opinions formed by those bloggers. and no, i don't change my own oil but do check oil on a weekly basis. oil is always around the same spot on the dipstick.

roadburner, no, I had no idea who I was talking about... so who are you? Batman? or you pee motor oil on a regular basis and that makes you know about oil that much more?

dougtheeng, didn't know a background check is required... I apologize. I will call a PI right now to check on everyone's background before I post again.

"so who are you? Batman? or you pee motor oil on a regular basis and that makes you know about oil that much more?"

Articulate, humorous, and fixated on my bathroom habits; now THAT'S a winning combination...

I don't know - somehow the idea of a car using oil before it hits 100k surprises me, unless it's a BMW M or Porsche (known oil-eaters).

My '03 325i w/ 111k miles has never consumed any measurable synth oil b/t 7500mi changes - and that's with a lot of WOT and high revs.

Similarly my '01 4Runner also doesn't consume any dino oil - 147k mi on the ODO.

Given that I drive my cars to 150k - 175k miles before replacing them I'd be concerned about longevity and what all that missing oil is ruining. Like my cats. Just sayin'.

alman08 - not offended at all. As you can tell, I generally don't make point of listing qualifications every time I post. I generally hope that what I write speaks for itself, or is generally verifiable if you look.

jederino - I find oil analysis to be a great tool. That said, if your car is still under warranty, I would follow the recommended change guidelines. The money you save just isn't worth it if you have a problem and there are issues with your warranty. If you're out of warranty and are using a good quality oil, then go ahead and push a bit further. Personally, I don't like to go more than 5-6k miles between changes on my cars, and even less on my forced induction vehicles (3k miles on the nose for those).

In terms of filling, a little overfill isn't going to cause any problems. Some vehicles can easily tolerate a quart or more of overfill without issues - not that I'd recommend that. On some race vehicles where we can't run a dry sump, baffled oil pan or other protective device, we'll often overfill them deliberately just to ensure enough oil to keep the oil pump pickup covered under high-G cornering.

My S2000's engine blew due to a crack crankshaft. Honda's drink oil and it's insane, I will NEVER buy another Honda again.

"My S2000's engine blew due to a crack crankshaft."

Is that anything like a crack head?

Of the very small percentage of S2000 engines that blew (all early, early models), the vast majority were caused by a piston to bore scuffing issue. There are actually two different size factory pistons because the FRM cylinder liners are so hard to machine. Wrong piston in the wrong bore size and failure in about 1000-2000 miles.

Otherwise, I've never seen a factory Honda crank fail - even on 1000 hp 2 liter turbo engines.