2010 Volkswagen GTI: Better Than an M3

Oh my...

YES, Vdub love

I'm not going to comment on the M3 comparison, because Ive driven neither an M3 nor a GTI (damn I wish I have tho), but I'm glad to hear the GTI get some praise rather than get picked apart for less-than-truckworthy cargo capacity, or how its not some super pissed off Japanese microwave on wheels.

VWs have never been totally hardcore drivers cars, they've been the peoples car, thats Das Auto :)

No words can possibly come close to describing how strongly I disagree with this post. Don't worry Michael; we still like you, but be prepared for the FLAMES!

Ok. What? The GTI is a great car, but put the crack pipe down...

That's interesting. I used to have a (lowly) Mark IV GTI with the then-new 180 hp 1.8T engine. That engine was a revelation compared to the 12V VR6; the car felt light on its feet and the powerband was insanely flexible. I started thinking of it as the Whispering Bomb, for precisely the reasons that Mr. Jordan describes. It was so much easier to use in the cut and thrust of urban driving than my other car, and I think in most day to day situations it was faster, as a practical matter, simply because of that flat torque curve. There were days (many of them, actually) that I preferred driving the GTI (nominally my wife's car) to our other car (nominally mine).

My car was an E46 M3.

I've got one eye on the Mark VI GTI; I will probably pull the trigger one day, and it won't surprise me if I find, like Jordan, that there are days I prefer driving it to my current car--an E90 M3.

I kind of agree.
The M3 is a car you cherish and treasure, and you will cringe every time you hit a pothole or get a rock chip.
The GTI is kind of like a beater that is also comfortable, drives well, and has pretty good power.
I may just get one if I need to commute by car.

Crack is whack.

And just when you thought this blog was getting boring.... BOOM!

I'm not sure that I completely agree with the whole better-than-an-M3 thing, but I would agree that when price, comfort, features, practicality, and performance are all taken into account, the GTI is probably one of the best cars on the market right now.

I agree in the sense that I believe that the E9X M3's character is much more akin to that of the E24 M6 and E28 M5. It's a big comfortable GT coupe or sport sedan that can still perform at an extremely high level on the track. I guess that explains why there is a 1975 2002 and a 1995 318ti Club Sport in my garage- and why I'll probably end up owning an E30 M3. The mega-horsepower Panzers are kind of fun in their own way, but after I drive one I they simply remind me that my favorite cars are light, nimble, and tossable.
Having said all that, I'd take my 2007 MS3 over the 2010 GTI. I much prefer the VW's interior but I've grown to enjoy the Mazda's "pit bull on crystal meth" personality. The MS3 lacks the sharp handling of the GTI but it's fun in its own way. The Brits call bikes like my Speed Triple "Hooligan Bikes"- lots of horsepower coupled with decent handling and a low-key appearance. An MS3 is simply a Hooligan Bike with four wheels.

I like that you stated a point, and then backed it up. And after 12 posts, no flames yet. I'm amazed. The more I read about this and the MS3 the more convinced I am I need to test drive them both, on the same day, to get an idea what they're like against each other. As I said in a previous post about the GTI, I'm more GTI style than MS3 style.

Look at that, a whole post from me on the VW and not one comment about reliability.

Rather have a pissed off Japanese microwave on wheels

duck, cover, and watch the fireworks...

Michael, I don't think I remember reading a blog post with this much passion from any of the IL staff in a LONG time. This was a heartfelt, well-written piece on a beautiful car. While the M3 is a fantastic car, it's financially out of reach for most people and the GTI indeed fills 90% of that void beautifully.

I would choose the M3.

I can't really think of an eloquent way to tell you why you're wrong, so I guess I'll settle for "agree to disagree."

Lots of IL love for the Vdubs lately...did VW send you guys some cake or something?

I see your point. However, repeat after me, RWD is ALWAYS MUCH better than FWD. Class dismissed.

What a fun post! Made me think of racing those first GTIs back in the day with my V8 Maverick.....until I punched out the cats and let the Grabber breathe could I smoke them every time on the straight.....until the first corner. My buddy's dad got a Omni GLH and we spent the summer blowing the doors of every GTI we could find......we thought it had HUGE tires at the time (205 60-15) those GLHs' were something else! Camaros and Mustangs had their hands full until about 70 or so.

My girlfriend and my daughter both have Jetta Diesels, one with auto, the other with manual. They both seem like exceptional cars, but I can't seem to shake the nightmare that was my '75 Audi Fox.

Let me preface this by saying that my personal vehicle is a 1997-1998 MCS14, but I daily commute/carpool in a VW Beetle (don't ask) So I may be slightly biased...

I agree with VVK... RWD is always better than FWD... for me.

Now having said that... if 90% (maybe even 95%) of the driving public just hopped into any car and started driving, they would not notice the difference between FWD and RWD. For the 5%-10% that would notice, in your daily life it really doesn't make that much of a difference unless you're outside-passing people on every freeway onramp.

I think Volkswagen has a great niche here.

First you say this: "It's not that it's less than half the price as an M3; it's that it's more than twice as good as an M3."

Then you say this: "because it combines the M3-style virtues in a car that is not only affordable but also responsive and nimble. "

I thought you didn't care about the price?

Both cars are equally great at their price points and performance level. if the Vdub is as fast as the M3, I am willing to bet that the price would be within $5K of each other, which means that the premium you pay in the M3, you pay for that extra performance and luxury acoutrements. I have driven and ridden in the GTi on long trips; it is not as comfortable as the M3 for short or long drives. I really don't see how you could say it is twice the car. Impossible.

+1 on Crack is whack.

It's funny, just today, I left a white 2010 VW GTI -- much like the one pictured -- choking in my dust while driving my 135i. (Yes, he did try to go for it, too. He failed.)

I like the GTI. In fact, I may yet buy a 4-door version when we need to replace my wife's car. But better than an M3? Whatever.

"Most of my disappointment in the BMW 1 Series has to do with its unwillingness to embrace a new personality as a light car rather than simply perpetuate the old 3 Series template."

Agreed. I went to the dealership to buy one...but didn't because of this^

In general though RWD>FWD

@roadburner

You have two classics in the garage, an ‘07 MS3 and who knows how many other cars, that must be nice. For a person like my self who can only afford one car, I would go for the GTI; I test drove both the MS3 and GTI. The MS3 is a blast, but the GTI is also fun to drive but much more livable for my day-to-day commute.

If you are a one car DD person like myself I would recommend the GTI as the best mix of practicality, comfort and fun.

I think the GTI is better than an M3 for other reasons: There is no way I could afford an M3…but a GTI….

I missed the part where you made that case that the GTI's better than the M3.

GTI's a great car, but I'd argue the WRX 5-door is a better sports car all-arounder. It is true that the WRX carries a certain...owner association with it, but that's not a big problem for some (like me).

The long-term ownership experience reputation on recent VWs falls strongly in the "con" category.

I'm thoroughly convinced only VW people like the way VW (and Audi) shifters/clutches feel. Worst part of the car, IMO.

I see your point here, I don't necessarily agree with it, but I respect your opinion. I'm biased because I just bought a '10 M3, but I still think saying the GTI is a better car is kind of crazy. It's a fantastic car, no doubt, but in an entirely different way. I wouldn't say either is necessarily "better" than the other. Both are comfortable, nimble, tossable, and easy to drive hard. The difference is that the when the GTI maxes out the M3 still has a whole lot left in it. On the other hand, the VW costs less than half as much and is just as much fun and nearly as capable out in the real world.

It totally depends on what you are looking for. I have not a single regret about choosing the M3, but I could see myself really enjoying the GTI, too. One isn't really better than the other, just different.

It is indeed the best car on a road for everyday driving. But you just can't compare it to M3; it's just different class. And if you are comparing it to M3 then why not say GTI is better than 911.
I have about 1500 miles on my 2010 GTI and every time I sit behind the wheel I'm proud of myself for making a good decision buying it. This car spoils me, I'm noticing that people stare at this car everywhere I go. When I had my Honda SI, I never had this kind of attention. Yesterday, I set in a car for 30 min. just admiring its interior.

@jkp1187 - of course - you have 100 more hp and lb-ft than he does... BUT if he were to spend enough in mods to get him to where you are he would still have $10,000 in his pocket.

The point is context.

"You have two classics in the garage, an ‘07 MS3 and who knows how many other cars, that must be nice."

Thanks. I've had the ti for almost 15 years. I nabbed the 2002 on eBay a couple of years ago; my son is helping me with a few minor repairs and upgrades so he can drive it when he gets his license. With regards to the GTI vs. MS3 debate, either one is an excellent choice, it all depends on your preferences and priorities. I'd probably be driving a 2007 GTI today if any of the local VW dealers had shown an interest in ordering a car the way I wanted it equipped...

I have a GTI and love it, so I'm probably biased about this...

I'd love to have an M3 and at some point I might; but if i really think about it, how often do I find myself in situations where I could actually use the extra capability of an M3?

Buying a car like an M3, or a Porsche, or a Ferrari isn't necessarily a rational decision; that's part of the fun of being a car enthusiast. A GTI is a very rational purchase for those looking to have fun in most daily driving situations with only one car...but yes, I'd still rather have RWD. There's not really a "right" way of looking at this.

@roadburner

I am going through the same thing right now with local dealers. I don’t want the hole in the roof, oversized wheels, leather, DSG, etc. etc….I just want a 2010 GTI.

"I am going through the same thing right now with local dealers. I don’t want the hole in the roof, oversized wheels, leather, DSG, etc. etc….I just want a 2010 GTI."

Exactly. All I wanted on my 2007 was the upgraded sound system and heated seats,, but every car was loaded with ALL the junk you mentioned. On top of that, the sales guys I talked to acted like ordering a car was a virtually impossible task- and that the process would take 5-6 MONTHS. Have you checked out the VW Vortex forums? They used to have an "Ask a VW Salesperson" topic, and the salespeople that participated were good people; they would even do vehicle locates.

Dear Michael Jordan:

Enjoy your bobcats and your GTI.

I will enjoy my M3 and the Cavaliers.

Thank you.

Agree with the blogger. Just a fun little car. Of course a used 328i is about the same price and even more fun.

My God. Jordan's at it again. I read the post, re-read it again to make sure I'm not the drunk one here; then just sit for a couple of minutes, shaking my head.
The GTI is awesome, incredible and a whole lot of fun and value all wrapped up in a tidy package. I should know -- I've had an A2 and A4 GTI (which wasn't as bad as people make it out to be). I've sat in the A6 and was mightily impressed. I have driven M3s, and especially love the visceral nature of the E46 version.
But to say the GTI is "better" than the M3 is just crazy -- or Jordan is going for the same sort of ridiculous hyperbolic effect he perfected during his Automobile magazine days and that Top Gear exhibits now (where everything is either "brilliant" or "rubbish"). As much as I love the GTI -- and I am getting another one; it's in my blood now -- the M3 will "rubbish" it when it is driven in the manner it was built for. I wasn't stupid enough to think I could run with E30 and E46 M3s when I had my GTIs, and I'm not stupid enough to think the current GTI can run with the E9x M3 in any contest of speed, especially on a track. The GTI is an all-around, all-purpose car, not a speed demon like the M3.
C'mon Jordan. You can write a nice piece on how good you think the GTI is without going off the deep end and suggesting it is better than a purpose-built speed machine like the M3. Other posters may think you're being passionate and whatnot, but I know you're a better writer than this and it's like you're not even trying. That's why I don't like your stuff nowadays.

Actually in you live in the lake affect area, during the winter the GTI is wayyyy faster then the M3. The diff being the GTI actually moves vs. the M3 doesn't.

I like the GTI but the M3 is a achievement car it shows that you have done something to get a excellent car.

The GTI by comparison is more along the lines of a dreamers car*.

*Stock that is.

Also my take on drive lines.

AWD/RWD = FWD

All I need is a AWD Mustang 5.0 and I'm good until someone gets a W12 for it.

I'm sorry I couldn't hear that over the 8000 rpm howl of the M3 echoing in my head..

I like my GTI. I plan to get another. While people try to speak ill of the car, I'm out enjoying it every single day. No matter what purpose I use it for. When I catch another GTI out the corner of my eye and not recognize it immediately, it makes me do a double take because its so pretty... then I realize its a GTI and it reaffirms why I bought the car.

"Actually in you live in the lake affect area, during the winter the GTI is wayyyy faster then the M3. The diff being the GTI actually moves vs. the M3 doesn't."

Proper tires are the most significant factor in coping with winter driving conditions. A GTI on summer tires won't do any better than an M3 running similar rubber.

"Of course a used 328i is about the same price and even more fun."

Or you could find a nice 330i ZHP and spend a weekend installing an Active Autowerke supercharger.

I think they need to give Michael Jordan the keys to the M3 this weekend... maybe this is his way of asking for them?

This is a ridiculous post. The M3 is a world class car. I know cause I've had my E46 M3 new since 2004 and I am not selling it. I am actually selling the 2007 335is convertible for this GTI because the normal 335is is too heavy and underdamped although it is a great highway cruiser. The GTI, I'd imagine would be just as good for a lot less cash and gas. I don't expect it to come close to an M3 in it's visceral feel everytime I take that beast out, nor do I want it to. I remember my mazda MX6 V6 with 5speed manual and if the GTI is as good as that car, then I will be happy enough. My only concern is the VW nameplate since my last one was a 1985 scirroco which was fun but literally fell apart in my hands. door and sunroof handles, seat controls and various trim pieces.

@ROAD,

I've got a coworker with a supercharged 330i. He's modded the hell out of that car. Impressive work but I'm not into modding cars. I don't trust cars from the factory. Modded...no I don't have the time, skill or desire to work on a car. Wish I did.

31 months and counting...

I don't subscribe to the whole RWD better than FWD mantra. I am no racing driver, but I think the differences in the real world are not as pronounced as they once were.

That said, I think AWD is simply the best, no matter what the purists say.

It is funny how VW is perceived here as being unreliable, whereas in Europe it has a reputation for sturdiness.

@mcgs999

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Clearly didn't. If we're playing the 'mod' game, a $500 JB3n and the modded GTI continues to stay choking in the dust. So what?

Hell, with a judicious budget, you could probably spend the difference in purchase prices between a 135i (DEFINITELY the price of an M3) and a Camry and make the Camry quite a sleeper. Of course, you're still driving a CAMRY, and that, for me, does not fit anywhere on the 'best car ever' list.

And you're right - context is the key. If you're looking for an inexpensive hatchback with sporting pretensions that gets decent fuel economy, the GTI is a winner. But if you're shopping for an M3 (or, indeed, a 135i for that matter,) that actually has a premium feel, then clearly there are other priorities driving your sale, including luxury, power, etc.

So ultimately, we agree -- it's ludicrous to call the GTI 'better' than the M3.

Though kudos to the fellow from Edmunds who posted this -- his intention was clearly to generate a lot of attention, and he is succeeding.

*Just a correction on my post.

AWD/RWD > FWD

Thanks Edmunds for the mobile site support now can you move on to something useful like a edit button?

Apples & oranges on the better than M3 part... Sure, for commuting, mpg's, range, livability, probably GTI>M3 (as well as all sorts of porsches etc). No need to really comment on this moot comparison.

BUT, the new EA888 engine that this GTI is a gem. I have it in my '10 a4 2.0T 6MT and it is better than paper specs suggests (perhaps for the first time for a VAG engine other than the RS4). Coming from a 255hp 330i, I was ready for a bit of disappointment with higher weight, awd and lower power. But the torque, and most importantly the newly sweet response makes up for it, the car feels just as fast in everyday situations if not faster. Sure, if you're willing to shift both cars at 6500rpm, the bmw will dust it, but in daily driving, it is an excellent engine with excellent mileage (for me).

"I'm biased because I just bought a '10 M3,"

CONGRATS!!! I hope you like your new ride! Are you going to change your screen name now?? LOL :) We totally dis-agree about cars but I am glad you got a new toy....hope it perfoms well for you.....What made you decide on the BMW?

I agree that the GTI is a fantastic car. Driving one, I would never consider any of the Japanese cars (in the same price class) as competitors. The GTI really felt THAT much more expensive and well-made!

It is interesting that you suspect it as a loss-leader. It makes sense though, because the GTI really does feel like a premium car. Of course the dealer I went to had a "dealer markup" of $3500 and $2800 (yes, the added sticker actually said "dealer markup"! To push the GTI final price to around $32500.

Of course I'm not buying from a dealer that isn't going to take it's customers with respect so that guaranteed I would not buy from them.

I would definitely buy the GTI but my wife likes the Audi A3... honestly, at the price that dealer is asking, I might as well get a A3!

I agree that RWD > FWD, and right now my options are either a new GTI or an '04ish 3 series, which both run in the low 20Ks. The 3 series was winning in my mind because of the RWD, Inline 6, and my general preference for used cars (get more for your money without producing another good, instead recycling what is already there. Now that's caring for the environment). However, even in Southern California, the land where 3 Series are more common than anything else, there is apparently not one E46 with a manual transmission for sale within a hundred miles from me. I want a manual, so this is a dealbreaker.

I'm still considering a MS3, but as much as I want something more fierce and bonkers than the GTI, whatever I get has to be my daily driver and put up with slow commutes, long road trips, and puttering around town. I'm not convinced the MS3's extra fun is enough to make up for what I believe will be greater challenges in the everyday stuff, but I'll give it a test drive and see. Still, the horrid red dot interior and stupid smiley exterior are practically deal breakers.

Also in defense of the GTI, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like a lot of basic compact cars are around, what, 2800 lbs these days. The GTI adds a turbo, intercooler, heated seats, 8 speakers, and a solid interior and still only weighs 3000 lbs. That's commendable.

"I don't subscribe to the whole RWD better than FWD mantra. I am no racing driver, but I think the differences in the real world are not as pronounced as they once were."

Yeah you'll only feel RWD when turning, using a freeway on ramp/off ramp, accelerating hard, freeway exchanges, twists in the road and when making a u-turn. Otherwise, in the real world, if you're driving in straight lines and never, ever turning you'll never notice the difference.

"Yeah you'll only feel RWD when turning, using a freeway on ramp/off ramp, accelerating hard, freeway exchanges, twists in the road and when making a u-turn. Otherwise, in the real world, if you're driving in straight lines and never, ever turning you'll never notice the difference."

Oh BS. If you drive in a normal, safe manner there is very little difference in feel. RWD fanbois hate to admit that for a family car or minivan FWD is more space efficient and has better traction in bad weather. The vast majority of cars sold in the US are FWD for a reason......it is the most efficient way to design a mass market car. High performance cars are a different story of course...RWD is the way to go but there are many fun and sporty FWD cars like the GTI. I get such a kick out of those who pretend to be snobs about a man trans or RWD. MY commuter car is a Stratus....it has a ton of room inside (remember cab forward?) corners pretty well (when they came out they were widely praised for the sporty way it drove) and is very comfortable......every time I open the trunk or put my kids in the back seat I am glad it is FWD....oh also it has been raining a lot for California lately and it is a rock in the wet. With its V6 and Autostick it can be fun to drive as well. If you turn and stand on the gas there is some torque steer buy why would you floor it all the time unless you are an idiot? My long winded point is that even 12 years ago FWD cars were pretty damned good and even better now. RWD has indeed made somewhat of a comeback in the past decade but guess what folks, as gas prices rise and regulations get worse RWD will begin to fade again except for the extremely high end cars.

I think CAR magazine said it best a few months back when they proclaimed the GTI to be the 911 of hot hatches...All I can say is that I absolutely love my new 2010 GTI and its allroundedness(!) Sedate and comfortable after a long day at work and sharp and powerful enough to put a grin on your face, both on the highway and a curvy back road.

I think CAR magazine said it best a few months back when they proclaimed the GTI to be the 911 of hot hatches...All I can say is that I absolutely love my new 2010 GTI and its allroundedness(!) Sedate and comfortable after a long day at work and sharp and powerful enough to put a grin on your face, both on the highway and a curvy back road.

"I'm still considering a MS3, but as much as I want something more fierce and bonkers than the GTI, whatever I get has to be my daily driver and put up with slow commutes, long road trips, and puttering around town. I'm not convinced the MS3's extra fun is enough to make up for what I believe will be greater challenges in the everyday stuff, but I'll give it a test drive and see. Still, the horrid red dot interior and stupid smiley exterior are practically deal breakers."

Having driven both MS3 and GTI (current year), the MS3 is way sharper (handling and steering) and way faster. MS3 has a good interior, GTI great. I don't think the MS3 would be overly difficult in daily driving , but I DD an EVO so my tolerance may be high. The maniacal grin of course and the questionable reliability history of the MZR seems to be the downside of the MS3. That said we have spent $1,200 out of warranty this year on an FSI equipped Passat between door locks/electronics, various valves, and the trunk failing. I'd also want to see the performance (wider track) and pricing of the new WRX before committing to either of these two.

lol! I had to check the calendar and make sure it wasn't April 1st. FWD VW preferred to an M3? Good lord, so insane.

"Oh BS. If you drive in a normal, safe manner there is very little difference in feel."

When was the last time you drove a RWD car? There is a HUGE difference in feel between my MS3 and my Club Sport. But then, I don't consider driving a RWD car in the rain to be a death-defying act.

sorry but driven lightly, you would be very hard pressed to guess if a car was FWD, AWD, or RWD. your cars may feel different but that is because they are completely different cars. my WRX was converted to RWD for a while and it felt the same.

driven hard, then FWD is at a disadvantage, but I'll still take a GTI over most cars. it is truly far more capable than people think or want to believe. keep this in mind guys... Ford says their Focus RS is faster than their GT supercar around their test track... and Honda says the same about their Civic Type R vs. their NSX. also interesting is the Focus RS is FWD because it is faster than the AWD version they had in testing.

sure, RWD is more fun because you can do smokey burnouts, donuts, drift, and even just powerslide out of a turn or it may just feel more natural and offer more control to the driver... but give credit where its due. FWD is no joke.

You don't have to break a law to feel the difference in RWD v. FWD. The GTI is really fun. So is the Cooper S. Just crazy fun. But do they feel like RWD? Not ever. Even within the law.

I'm not saving FWD is bad. Just the differences are immediately noticeable. Sheesh. Nobody is saying FWD must die. But to contend a driver can't feel it on a normal drive...well that says more about you as a driver.

Again, driven lightly there is just not that big a difference.....I have driven 30 years now and I know the difference. The key word is driven lightly. Moving from stoplight to stopligh at light throttle and cruising down the freeway there is just not that much, if any, difference.....that is why FWD will continue to be far and away the best selling drivetrain. It is not 1960 anymore where almost every car was RWD and had a man trans.

There is definitely a noticeable difference between FWD and RWD, and while its true that most people would not detect a difference in normal/light driving, there is a large group of drivers who can quickly feel the difference even when driving well within the bounds of law. Full disclosure: my daily driver is a 2007 Mini Cooper which is probably one of the best handling/most communicative FWD cars on the market today. It's a hoot most of the time, but it absolutely falls on its face when compared with a similarly sized and similarly powerful RWD car like the Mazda MX-5. Before even leaving the parking lot in the Miata, its immediately evident that the steering is providing more feedback, and hard acceleration produces none of the hints of torque steer that the Mini displays. When driving hard on a twisty road, the differences are even more obvious. Turn-in is much more immediate, and you can apply gas a lot sooner when coming out of a corner without any of worry of understeer.

By the way, this whole least-common-denominator argument is ridiculous. "Most people won't notice so it doesn't matter." That's really just an excuse for overlooking details and cutting corners. Imagine if a student turned in a calculus exam with incorrect answers and then tried to argue that most people who saw the exam wouldn't notice the errors. It wouldn't fly. Toyota builds cars for "most people," and look what that has yielded: the most beige and boring range of cars ever offered by a single company. Is that want we really want?

*Is that what we really want?

"Toyota builds cars for "most people," and look what that has yielded: the most beige and boring range of cars ever offered by a single company. Is that want we really want?"

Well Toyota is still the number one car company in the world even with all of its problems lately. Mazda builds cars with that special "feel" and Kia with its boring cars has blown it away in sales. Sales and profits are what matter to a company and that is the way it should be. I see your point but equating FWD with cutting corners is not correct. FWD is the most popular system because it is better for the vast majority of poeple and their needs, not because it is cheaper to build and easier to cut corners on. And so what if FWD feels different? It does not feel terrible by any means in todays cars. If you are taking freeway on ramps fast enough to worry about the handling then you are driving too fast for the situation, period. The street is not a track and there are enough idiots out there that think that the street is their own personal race course. Other drivers have a right to a safe driving enviroment.

"my WRX was converted to RWD for a while and it felt the same."

huyracing, that does not make your WRX a RWD car. You are very naive if you think that. Nothing personal, but you need to learn more about the difference.

In order to convert, you would need to move your engine behind the front axle, move you steering rack and tie rods in front of the axle, move the front brake calipers to the opposite side, etc., etc. A very long list, including some extensive body reengineering.

And it would still lack the perfect 50/50 weight distribution of good front engine/RWD cars.

Honestly, I'm not sure you can call yourself a driving enthusiast if you're genuinely trying to argue that FWD is an ideal or even good performance platform. Sure there are numerous advantages to FWD for a commuter car (cost, efficiency, space savings, complexity, adverse-weather handling, etc.) but from a pure performance standpoint, FWD is simply doing things the wrong way. There are a handful of performance FWD machines out there, but all are extremely lightweight and as a consequence, don't need much power and won't demolish their tires when driven hard.

The MS3 is one of the quickest FWD cars out there today and even that car has to electronically limit its torque in 1st and 2nd to cope with its FWD platform. Result? It's 0-60 times are almost a full second slower than what they should be given its power and weight. And beyond that, there are the issues of torque steer, inferior handling dynamics, and less feedback from the wheels.

FWD is a great platform for practicality and efficiency, but I don't think there are many valid arguments (if any) why it's a good performance platform for an enthusiast to start from.

Give me a GTI for the weekdays and an M3 for the weekends.

Thanks.

"FWD is a great platform for practicality and efficiency, but I don't think there are many valid arguments (if any) why it's a good performance platform for an enthusiast to start from."

Exactly. One reason I bought my MS3 was the fact that a lot of my HPDE students drive FWD cars. I thought it would be a good idea to live with a FWD car on a daily basis in order to more fully understand the handling characteristics. And I decided that I might as well get the fasted FWD out there while I was at it. That said, a 3150 lb. FWD car packing 287 hp IS a lot of fun, but overall I still prefer RWD.

"Give me a GTI for the weekdays and an M3 for the weekends."

Sounds like a plan... ;)

"If you are taking freeway on ramps fast enough to worry about the handling then you are driving too fast for the situation, period."

Sorry, but that is simply not true, and adding the word "period" to the end of your sentence does not make it any more so. Example: Torque steer is primarily a low-speed occurrence that afflicts a lot of FWD cars in first and second gear. It is a dead giveaway that a car is sending its power forward and can be pretty disconcerting if a driver isn't expecting it. The other factor which others have mentioned is steering feel, which is present at all speeds, not just extra-legal ones.

"Sales and profits are what matter to a company and that is the way it should be."

I really don't want to live in a world where all things are built simply to sell as many as possible, and thankfully we're not there yet. If that were really true, all breweries would be pumping out cheap Budweiser clones and all wine would be sold in boxes. True, FWD is fine for a lot of people (heck, I own a FWD car), but thankfully there are still auto makers willing to invest the time and effort to build a RWD car even if it means that only a few will even notice.

"Torque steer is primarily a low-speed occurrence that afflicts a lot of FWD cars in first and second gear."

True but mostly under heavy throttle applications....like you would be useing if going on the onramp too fast which was my point to the period does make it so :)

Anyway we will just have to agree to dis-agree on the FWD vs RWD debate....On normal cars, driving nomally FWD just does not feel that different. RWD is best for high performance driving which you should not be doing on the street anyway.....thats my story and I am sticking to it! :)

vvk: you are the naive one and frankly don't know what you are talking about... you only supported my statement that comparing a FWD car vs. a RWD car is very much THE CAR and not the drivetrain. a Rear Wheel Drive car is a car with power being sent to only the rear wheels. all that other crap you said was... crap. the M3 in question isn't even 50/50, lol. (its 51/49 according to IL)

fundango: i would say you are not a driving enthusiast if you put down FWD cars as a viable performance option. you are an ignorant snob and would not last a day among REAL driving enthusiasts. i eat punks like you at the track regularly. (and they usually never return)

"the period does make it so :)"

Haha...Cheers, man. I just didn't think you'd want to be sounding like 1487. :)

When people say things like RWD is better then FWD it's the same as to say that GTI is better then M3. I can't imagine a hatchback with RWD. There is NO RWD cars in WRC, they are either FWD or AWD and it makes a perfect cense to them.
To me living in a city there is no use for RWD unless you prefer it this way; especially if I go places where it snows sometimes.

"huyracing i would say you are not a driving enthusiast if you put down FWD cars as a viable performance option. you are an ignorant snob and would not last a day among REAL driving enthusiasts. i eat punks like you at the track regularly. (and they usually never return)"

Wow, it's amazing how everyone is a race car driver nowadays. The reason the most sports cars are RWD is because the engine is in the back and it's powerful. But when you have a 200hp engine in front and send that power to the back you lose some power respectively as well as add extra weight. However, if you have a very powerful engine you don't want to put all that power on your front wheels, there is a very good example for that in one of the Top Gear shows about this VW GTi W12-650. I'm sure you are a hell of race car driver, good luck eating punks:)

Sorry, wrong example regarding GIi W12, but this thing is sick. It's this one that I meant earlier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgntxiKrOPc

@roadburner

Haha, yeah, for practical reasons, a lot of kids start out driving FWD and it becomes their platform by default (I did). Not insurmountable, but definitely not ideal for the track. So many accomodations have to be made to compensate for the FWD platform -- ultra-stiff spring rates up front to reduce lateral weight transfer, reduction/removal of the front sway to reduce understeer, huge rear sway to get the rear end to step out (esp the auto-x guys), reverse-staggered wheel/tire setups to put more tire on the front end, big brake setups up front to compensate for the front brakes doing all the work, drastic weight reduction, etc. Man, the list just goes on. And to think things just get worse with the mcpherson front suspension so many cars are coming with from the factory these days. It just boggles my mind what performance-related reasons a person could have for picking a FWD platform over a RWD one if given the choice.

It's awesome though that you got the MS3 to help your students out with their FWD cars -- that's pretty cool in my book. Did you decide to pick up that E30 M3?

@huyracing

"you are an ignorant snob and would not last a day among REAL driving enthusiasts. i eat punks like you at the track regularly."

Hahaha, I get the sense you're trying to drag me into an e-pissing contest. Don't get offended by me stating my opinion (my comment certainly wasn't directed at you personally). I just don't see how a knowledgeable person would prefer a FWD setup over a RWD setup for performance-related reasons. Anyway, I didn't see you rebut any of the points I made, so I'll just let my earlier comment stand as is: when it comes to performance, RWD > FWD.

I'll have what sabastian's having. Spot on.

"Did you decide to pick up that E30 M3?"

I am thinking about it VERY hard. I don't know if I've mentioned it before but it only has 54K miles and the first and second owners were both obsessive-compulsive about maintenance and cosmetics. On one hand, I just know I couldn't stop myself from driving it-unless the roads were covered with snow or salt- and I kind of hate to put so many miles on it. On the other hand I'm thinking that I may never get a chance to get an E30 M3 in that kind of shape and the car WAS built to be driven like you stole it. It's kind of like the scene in Animal House where the guy has a devil and an angel sitting on his shoulders...

I'd say the GTI is the M3 of hot hatches and in some ways of budget cars in general.

I would not call it "better" than an M3 for the fact that the M3 caters to a different performance category altogether. However, I would say overall it is more practical than an M3 and in many ways better value. A lot of people don't want to spend extra for tires just for winter driving and would prefer better fuel economy etc. I live in the Northeast and for many people AWD or FWD take priority simply because of the traction advantage and most people drive on all-seasons over switching to winter tires, so in that sense the GTI would be the better alternative to the M3.

Is it more fun than the M3? Certainly not. Can it be as good as an M3 in certain situations? Absolutely.

I would rather buy a pissed-off Japanese microwave on wheels. Without question.

If money wasn't an issue for me at all, I'd say Michael is just nuts, non-sense. Give me an M3 and end of story. However that's is not the case, and value is extremely important to me. With that in mind I'd pick the GTI. Of course, there is always the risk of stopping at the BMW dealer first for a test drive and making a stupid emotional decision, which I'd love.

I think both cars are phenomenal. The GTI is a po-boy M3 and I dig it.

I think some have touched on this, but I think the main "point" of the blog entry is that auto companies that tend to build cars for the sport-minded driver have recently been building heavier, technologically-replete cars that are undoubtedly awe-inspiring, but have lost that sense of simple, light athleticism that the 2002 so well represented.

No doubt there isn't a huge market for this, but as a long standing icon, the GTI in many ways fits this bill.

So I see this more as a nostalgia piece for the BMW 2002 than necessarily trashing the WRX or the MS3--they just don't fit thematically in that tradition (which obviously has lain fallow for too long a time--Porsche, the builder of the '73-'74 911 RS now building SUV's and 4-door sedans?!).

I haven't had a chance to drive a 1-series, but I see BMW more as a company that builds fantastical spaceships than light and fast enthusiast machines.

Cars like the Boxster Spyder are now more boutique oddities (and I'd love to have one), than something that a large segment of the auto buying population want.

@roadburner

I say go for it -- life's too short not to jump on an opportunity like that. Maybe because it's the first generation M3 or because it's the purest of the breed, but I've always felt like the E30 M3 was a classic, even more so than the E36 and E46.

Why do people who like RWD keep getting hit with negative "racer" stereotypes? Ya'll admit you can feel the difference. It comes down to personal preference.

We can all eat at McDonald's but some of us will not do so and not because of snob appeal. Some people just don't like American-style food. If given the choice they'll pick mexican or thai or indian or ethiopian. Some people just prefer something different and they don't need to be boxed into this racer/snob category. Or told that "the majority like X." No kidding! Try going to a quick lunch when you detest American fast food (McDonald's BK, Wendy's, Subway, etc) and you're in a town in the middle of America driving a FWD rental. The choices get slimmed way down and still you'll opt for something different not because you're a snob but just because you like one kind of flavor over another.

We've got two FWD cars right now. They're decent cars. I don't really enjoy driving either of them - even in a parking lot at 5 mph. It's a difference in tastes. A $1 burger or $1 taco, to me there's a massive difference that I cannot ignore.

@bodyblue:

"I drive a Dodge Stratus! People fear me!!"

Haha. You admission made me think of that great sketch on SNL. And I agree, the cab-forward design by Chrysler was ahead of its time and the cars looked great.

"And I agree, the cab-forward design by Chrysler was ahead of its time and the cars looked great."

They did look good and provided better space efficiency. The unfortunate side-effect was poor structural performance in the tougher offset frontal crash tests. The cab-forward Chryslers had high cabin intrusion measures.

Not having driven either and only ridden in an E46 M3, I can't really say which is better. Of course the M3 will out-accelerate the GTI and can handle better through the track but when you think about it, how much of the populace tracks their cars let alone take them on some very aggressive roads? I know of several enthusiasts that don't even drive their cars like that or if they do, it's about once a year and not even close to its potential.

As for the RWD vs FWD argument, it's really subjective to personal taste. In a 4 cylinder vehicle, I really don't see the difference apart from the fun you can have with a RWD car. I have moved from a Altima 3.5SE (FWD) car to an M45 (RWD) car and to tell you the truth, apart from the fact that in straight line performance the RWD puts more power to use and I can kick the back end out, it's not a huge difference, if there is even one, in day to day driving. even in aggressive driving or on tracks, at least in my ability, there was little difference. I know both could have been pushed further to their limits and it would show which is better but 95-99% of the time, the difference is negligible. That being said I would still take RWD any day just because I like to option of having the power in back and more usable in certain situations.

Torque steer and spinning tires are just a common problem with FWD but in reality, the sporty cars nowadays are amazing at what they do. Take a looks at some of the track numbers of the high-end FWD sports cars with RWD sports cars. Sure they're behind but by how much really?

I was beginning to wonder if i was the only one thinking of the will ferrell/SNL connection. i'll never be able to take the stratus seriously again after that sketch.

LOL when I bought the Stratus off of my buddy I thought the very same thing! It was my first and only MOPAR and I hate to admit I rather like it..it is comfortable, pretty good on gas and rather nice to drive and has a huge back seat when I need to throw my teenage boys in the back....the damn thing just runs and runs 127K and
counting.
Bimmer....it was the off center front impact test that was marginal on the 1G Stratus (like you said)....I dont think the larger cab forward cars did as bad.

bodyblue;
send me a PM at roadburner@carspace.com

I completely agree with the article - I think the VW is a better car than my 2006 M3 was. I do miss rear wheel drive but only a little. The dynamics of the VW are very similar especially with upgraded sway bars. The power delivery is better with an APR upgrade and 3" downpipe - actually, the GTI will spank the M3 with these minor upgrades. I have spent under 30K with tax and my M3 was over 60K.

Add to this that I'm getting 26mpg around town and 32 on the freeway and I'm sorry, but I LOVE my 2010 GTI!!!