Forgive me, but the above picture is of the Tremec TR-6060 as it appears in a Camaro SS, but you get the idea. This post, unfortunately, is about our Challenger's own TR-6060.
I had our Challenger about a week ago, and as much as I didn't want to, I parked it outside.
I don't know how cold it got, our thermometers in Southern California only go down to 55 degrees, but at around 9 am the following morning our Challenger was nearly impossible to shift. Any attempt to shift into second was met with a slow, but equally loud, thunk-thunk-thunk-thunk. Eventually, after about four or five thunks, it would slot into gear only to suffer the same ordeal when attempting to shift into third. After a few of these painfully awkward shifts, I decided to dust off my seldom used double clutch upshift.
Amazingly, ten years after I last used did it, the double clutch shift worked and the gear lever slotted into second without protest. Ditto for third.
The thunking dissipated as the car, and the gearbox, warmed up but was still perceptible and occasionally caused a sloppy and abrupt upshift - but only into second and third gears. The other gears worked without protest, even in the cold morning leading me to come to a few possible conclusions.
1. The synchros might be lunched. These are the gears people want to 'power shift' and since that fast shifting goes completely against the grain of this transmission, enough over-aggression has cause the synchros to wear down and cry uncle. Remember, there are 30+ people of varying abilities who have access to these cars and not everybody is as awesome as I am.
2. The tranny fluid might be ill-suited for cooler temps. I find that hard to believe in that this happened in Southern California which never gets that cold. If that's the case, I can't imagine what this car would be like in North Dakota.
3. The floor mat might be keeping the clutch pedal from being full depressed and thus keeping the clutch from becoming fully disengaged. If that were true, the other gears would be just as recalcitrant as second and third.
So basically, I don't know.
What do you guys think?
Kurt Niebuhr, Photo Editor @ 17,630 miles
campi3ell says:
11:38 PM, 01/ 7/10
Drivers of varying abilities. Cruiser, sports car, muscle car...people are showing off in the baby, rather than shifting correctly.
3ricchu says:
11:40 PM, 01/ 7/10
Haha, maybe someone's stepbrother got a hold of the keys.
To be honest, I would think it's your first guess, the synchros. The symptoms all seem there, and the reasoning is sound.
hondaacura21 says:
11:50 PM, 01/ 7/10
These new manual transmission cars(exception of the Chevy Silverado) are exhibiting more transmission problems then automatics even though automatics are more complex and more prone to failure compared to its manual counterparts.
drewliuscaesar says:
12:18 AM, 01/ 8/10
wow, there is no way you guys ruined this cars tranny in 17k miles. if you did, I hope to god it was a faulty part from the start, because I learned how to drive stick on an old dump truck, and I know that there are tons of people who cannot drive stick even though they own a manual. It's ridiculous, and manufacturers should live by my personal motto: a person can be smart, but people are stupid.
clarkma5 says:
01:15 AM, 01/ 8/10
drewliuscaesar: "a person can be smart, but people are stupid." I like that a lot. I intend to steal that from you and not give you credit, thanks :D
Anyway, I must be forced to agree that there is less than a snowball's chance in hell that the synchros have been abused to this point unless there was a defect to get the ball rolling...I think the most likely scenario is that the shift linkage got knocked slightly out of adjustment somehow (it's definitely the sort of thing that could only affect one or two gears instead of everything) or my secondary vote goes to the transmission fluid...the shifter in my GTI gets a bit graunchy when the temps dip to around 40 or below, but never "can't get into gear bad".
srlracing says:
01:56 AM, 01/ 8/10
One of the ways around it, which is an old Ferrari trick, is to skip from first to third until things warm up. It's what I do on my quarter million mile Miata which is probably broken in by now.
ekimfeenux says:
03:32 AM, 01/ 8/10
Could it be possible that when Mike Schmidt lent the Challenger to his brother-in-law back in September who fried the clutch could have also severely progressed the wear on the syncros?
bodyblue says:
05:39 AM, 01/ 8/10
Even man transmissions use ATF so the temp cant be the problem......I think it could be the linkage and or the synchros due to abuse.....not much of a co-inky-dink that the clutch was fried not long ago......the Tremec box is a good unit but the Challenger could have got a bad one but I doubt it.....I remember the video of one of the eds shifting the M3 like a monkey......pulling it out of gear before the clutch was fully engaged........my dad would have kicked my ass out of the car if he ever saw me doing that....I was taught to drive smoooooooothly......that is the measure of a good stick driver.....oh and dont rest your hand on the gearshift.....it wears the syncros.
arm51 says:
06:34 AM, 01/ 8/10
I'd have to say that it probably is the synchros...no car should shift like that in the cold. The floormat idea could have lead to the fried clutch and these worn synchros...shifting with the clutch half-in\out isn't good for it's longevity. Hopefully it's a quick and painless fix, but I doubt it.
lowmilelude says:
08:04 AM, 01/ 8/10
I used to have a Prelude, so I'm familiar with worn synchros. Never noticed temp being a problem though. At any rate, have the linkage checked first before paying big bucks to have someone crack the case and check the synchros. If it's two or three synchros, you might be better off getting a whole new tranny. The labor cost of replacing a $20 synchro assembly is pretty steep.
eidolways says:
08:08 AM, 01/ 8/10
Unfortunately the TR-6060 in my G8 GXP does this all the time, and most especially when it's cold. It even does it to a lesser extent when it's warm, and I'm the only person who's owned the car. With only 15,000 miles on it, it's been doing this since it had just a few thousand on it. And even I'm not THAT bad at shifting; not bad enough to wear down the synchros on the gears in just a few thousand miles.
jeepsrt says:
08:31 AM, 01/ 8/10
My guess is from the brother-in-law, who knows what damage that caused from a fried clutch in one weekend.
joefrompa says:
09:02 AM, 01/ 8/10
No manual transmissions, to my knowledge, use ATF. If they exist, they are rare.
They either use manual transmission fluid (a modified version of 5w30 motor oil essentially) or gear oil (i.e. 75w90).
Both my 2006 Honda Civic SI (MTF) and my 2008 Legacy GT (75w90) exhibited poor cold weather shifting characteristics below 40 degrees. I swapped both to a high end aftermarket synthetic fluid, and both improved dramatically in cold shifting. The Civic got amsoil MTF (1.8 quarts) and the Legacy GT got amsoil severe gear 75w110 (essentially a high-end of the grade 75w90. 3.8 quarts. Shared with front diff on this car).
I think it would be valuable to your readers to try to swap the trans fluid to a high-end synthetic, such as (not knowing if the challenger requires MTF or gear lube):
1. GM Friction-modified Syncromesh
2. Redline MTF
3. Redline Gear Lube MIXTURE (per redline's site, you mix 2 of them 50/50)
3. Amsoil MTF
4. Amsoil Severe Gear 75w110
This is a fairly cheap fluid improvement that can yield immediate and tangible results.
Joe
joefrompa says:
09:04 AM, 01/ 8/10
Oh, I'll also add that on my 2006 Civic SI, from 0-15k miles I was experiencing the dreaded "3rd gear lockout" where you go to shift to 3rd and it's completely locked out until you de-clutch.
I then experienced the dreaded "3rd gear pop out" where you think you put it into gear, it accelerates fine for a minute, and then pops out of gear.
And an occasional 2nd gear grind.
All of these things occured mostly when cold out, but affected almost all versions of this otherwise great 6-speed transmission.
I swapped to AMSOIL MTF at 15k. I'm now at 80k, and I have never once had a 3rd gear problem since. No matter how cold. 2nd gear grinds were reduced notably, and overall it became more bolt-action in feeling.
Joe
sgude says:
09:37 AM, 01/ 8/10
I agree with joefrompa. However, the brother-in-law theory is sound as well. Who knows what damage could have been done?
deagle13 says:
09:43 AM, 01/ 8/10
If you surf the Corvette and Camaro forums (and probably Viper and Challenger forums as well), you'll see that "cold weather clunkiness" is a very common trait in the Tremec TR-6060 and T56 transmissions. You can double clutch the first few shifts until the tranny warms up or upgrade the tranny fluid (Redline and Royal Purple are popular choices in the Corvette community).
carlisimo says:
09:50 AM, 01/ 8/10
Previous-generation 6-speed Miatas like mine shift terribly in the cold. (And by cold, I mean like 40 to 50 degrees.)
I replaced the transmission fluid with Redline MT-90 and now it’s 90% better. Some Miata owners swear by GM Synchromesh fluid w/ friction modifiers. Either one helps a lot.
roadburner says:
10:06 AM, 01/ 8/10
"No manual transmissions, to my knowledge, use ATF. If they exist, they are rare."
Several Getrag boxes use ATF, as do many Tremec transmissions.
Lots of manual transmissions/transaxles can experience difficult shifting when the fluid is cold(ambient temperature). The 1-2 shift was especially difficult on my MS3 until I drained the transaxle and refilled it with Ford Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid(XT-M5-QS).
I'd check the OM and see what oil the transmission requires and change to an Amsoil or Redline product that meats those specs. As for GM and Ford TR6060 boxes, General Motors uses Texaco ATF Type III 1863 fluid and is certified "fill-for-life," requiring no fluid changes. Ford US lists a fill specification of 3.65 quarts of Mercon-V automatic transmission fluid.
SadButTrue says:
10:21 AM, 01/ 8/10
I don't have any new theories on the cause, but there's no doubt 2nd has seen some abuse. As Kurt says, even in higher temps with the car warmed up, there's still some extra resistance/gnarliness going into that gate.
Would be interesting to hear from some of the R/T owners on here about their experiences.
-Sadlier
audisport says:
10:36 AM, 01/ 8/10
Lesson learned. Don't let anyone who can't properly drive stick drive you tremec TR-6060 equipped car.
joefrompa says:
11:05 AM, 01/ 8/10
Roadburner - I thought I remembered like 1 or 2 trans that took ATF, but didn't realize it was that many. Surprise surprise for me.
Also, I didn't realize there were domestic manufacturers that still said the fluids were good for life.
crowb says:
11:55 AM, 01/ 8/10
@ joefrompa -
Did you ever try the Honda MTF with the green and white packaging for your civic? It was supposed to be a vast improvement over the old Honda MTF with the red packaging. If so, I'm wondering if that fluid helped your shift feel at all.
I want to change my MTF on my civic si soon and I think I will go with the new Honda stuff since I'm still under warranty.
roadburner says:
12:47 PM, 01/ 8/10
"I thought I remembered like 1 or 2 trans that took ATF, but didn't realize it was that many. Surprise surprise for me."
The only reason I knew was because of my fooling around with older Bimmers. I was surprised about the "lifetime" fluids as well; I change ALL driveline fluids at 30,000-50,000 miles- "lifetime" or not...
joefrompa says:
02:12 PM, 01/ 8/10
Crowb - I switched to amsoil MTF at 15k miles before they came out with the new stuff (back in 06). All of my problems went away. Why would I try the Honda product then?
:)
I strongly recommend swapping it out ASAP....so many people with transmission problems and here I am someone who quickly swapped and now has 80k with a solid trans.
john405 says:
04:24 PM, 01/ 8/10
I own a R/T 6 speed and I live in Alaska. I have no transmission issues, and the car is stock including fluids. The car has been in temps of -25F with no shifting issues. Other challenger owners who I have talked in state and live in colder parts have never mentioned transmission issues. Hopefully, somehow, a warranty applies. (I believe you only have 12 months/12,000 miles on a manual). Good Luck
sferrv6 says:
06:37 PM, 01/ 9/10
I have an RT 6-speed with no issues at all...stock. I'm in NC...the weather here the last few weeks has been in the teens overnight. By 8am it gets up to 20-25 degrees and my tranny is not clunky at all. Granted the first shift into 2nd and 3rd are a little bit stiff, but once the car is somewhat warm its very smooth. This is with 12,500 miles. Maybe I got lucky with a good unit.
If it's a transmission issue, it should be covered by the Lifetime Powertrain warranty. The clutch is only covered for 12/12000.
powell_jr says:
07:17 AM, 01/12/10
I drive a wrangler with the AX-15. I have issues in the cold on my 1-2 shifts. I usually drive to the stop sign at the end of my street at 5 mph in 1st gear. By the time I get to the stop sign and restart the shift from 1st to 2nd it shifts fine. I think the Tranny Fluid is cold because other than the cold starts I have no problem with my transmission.