2009 Honda Fit Sport: Honda's Shifting Priorities

Very well said/written. I've been thinking exactly the same thing lately, and find it kind of ironic that Toyota is now going back somewhat to their roots and/or Honda's roots as well. That is, we've abandoned sporty vehicles, that didn't work out too well, so we're now rushing to bring back some excitement to our brand!

Let's kill the RSX, S2000, replace the successful previous-gen TL with a new, douche bag inspired replacement model, bring out the awe-inspiring Insight, and call it day! Wake the eff up Honda!

totally agree.

Honda has lost it's way.

I'm tired of manufacturers telling us "Americans want this" or "Americans want that." That's a load of horse crap- Americans want GOOD cars. I'm tired of manufacturers (Honda, Subaru, Volkswagen) telling us it's our fault they are giving us crap cars.

Honda's best year was 2006. Prior to this, Hondas were simply too loud, cheap, underpowered, and junky on the inside. I'm hard pressed to find another car with a vinyl headliner in the mid-90's but Honda did it like it was just coming in to style. Remember driving the 1998 CR-V? Wasn't pleasant at all. Okay they were fairly good handling but they were far from being excellent overall cars.

But in 2006 They had the current-gen Civic and Civic Si, the then-excellent Accord, the TSX. This was the time when Honda was focusing hard on interior quality (the 06 Accord was near impossible to beat) , AND efficiency (5 speed transmissions in an era of four.)

After 2006, Honda then bloated everything in their product line. The Accord grew AND cheaped out. Americans don't want that. It got slower, the asthmatic A/C system struggles to keep the ginormous cabin cool. It's ugly. The transmission is only 5 speeds in an era where you've got CVTs and 6 Speeds. The interior quality is garbage. Then they follow it up with the krap-E Insight, claiming they did it because "Americans Wanted It." BS, it's absolutely nothing Americans want- tiny, cramped, and underpowered. Honda only sells cars under a facade of reliability- nobody buys a Honda ANYTHING anymore because they think it's the best car in class- they just buy it because they're stupid.

I have to wonder if these Japanese and German car companies are just passive-aggressive. Volkswagen thinks we want worse handling cars as an answer to us shunning their atrocious reliability. Subaru thinks we want bland Toyotas as an answer to us shunning their poor design. Mazda thinks we want big fat cars instead of better cars.

That leaves us with Nissan, Ford, and General Motors. Nissan has been shrinking their cars for better weight management and fuel economy, Ford has been honestly making improvements to their vehicles (you've always got the Mustang) , and GM has been shooting to improve their vehicle's handling dynamics. All of the disenfranchised owners of these niche cars are going to move somewhere else.

People forget who the buyers of luxury Hondas/Acuras of today are. Yesterday, they were drivers buying CRXes, Civic Sis, Preludes and used Integras. Honda probably didn't make much on some of those cars but they did build incredible brand loyalty that would carry over to their higher margin, more boring products. Look at how Subaru has really survived the downturn... how many of those buyers owned or aspired to the STi back when they were young?

I think by dropping or neglecting their *low cost* performance lines, Honda and Toyota are cutting off their future lifeline. It won't be long before they're the Buicks of today.

The EG6 and the DC2 will always have a place in my heart. Everything Honda has made since then doesn't thrill me.

As a former owner of a much-loved 2006 TSX (as well as a long-ago CRX owner, and someone who learned to drive in an early 80s Accord) I agree about 100 times over.

When the TSX lease was up, we couldn't find a single Honda/Acura that appealed to us. The new TSX was an abomination -- at least until the already awesomely described as d-bag inspired TL came out.

I've found each successive generation of Accord to be uglier (and more BMW/M-B aping, in a bad way), but I've also found that the successive increase in ugliness and bloatedness makes the previous generation look much better in hindsight. Maybe Honda's trying to drive CPO sales, b/c they sure as hell aren't making anything I'd want to buy new.

Prior to , Hondas were simply too loud, cheap, underpowered, and junky on the inside.

Really, you think that Honda only started making well appointed interiors 3 years ago?

I'm going to have to disagree. My 1974 Civic was loud, cheap and underpowered. My best friend's 2nd gen '84 Prelude was fun to drive, fast (by the standards of the time) great handling, and had a thoughtful, tastefull interior. My 1991 CRX was quiet, comfortable and (again, by the standards of the day) quick.

For the past 20+ years Honda interiors have been some of the best. Nice fabric, good looking plastic and filled with useful nooks and crannies. GM, Ford and Chrysler have been chasing them for years and Chrysler still hasn't caught up.

I agree, Honda has lost its way over this past decade and its become evident in the lower than industry average sales figures for 2009 & 2008.

As a previous owner of a 1998 Acura GSR I'm disappointed in Honda/Acura's current designs and engineering.

I guess Honda having horn bottons on the steering wheel spokes for all those years was considered a "well engineered" interior? Maybe the quality of their cars was there but the design was unimaginative and plain boring. And those tiny single DIN radios buried deep in the center dash were anything but ergonomic, espcially when much of the competition used double DIN size faceplates with more features and convenient placement (not to mention steering wheel radio controls).

Honda still hasn't fixed the road noise issue because every Honda I've riden in (and some Acuras) have been louder and rode harder than their competitors. There's no excuse for a loud cabin when even some small econoboxes feature serene interiors. I've never been a Honda fan and found little to like about Hondas besides their dependability- never got all the hype. I don't drive manual transmission vehicles because this city is not condusive to "fun" driving. Also, how much "steering precision" does the average Accord or Civic driver notice. 95% of Honda buyers purchase their cars because of perceived quality. Autowriters and enthusiasts can fool themselves into think it's because of their supposed superior engineering but that is balderdash. And someone tell me why Honda's V6 still uses a timing belt?

- I wouldn't say that Honda "has lost its way" but I will say that Honda has steered a bit off course, at least with a few of its product offerings.

- Honda became a bit too Americanized which diluted their overall philosophy and product in many ways.

- Honda's of yesterday were more exciting to drive, had better designs, and had certain unique elements that made them truly stand out from competitors. (Ito wants to bring that back.)

- I think this subject has been exaggerated just a bit as 10-20 years ago most of Honda's direct competition was spitting out mediocre products which of course would make Honda products standout.

- Today it's a different story as most all car manufacturers that compete directly with Honda stepped up their game significantly which of course would dim Honda's light compared to 10-20 years ago. Just about every car manufacturer makes at least one highly competitive offering.

- Honda has shifted an extremely large portion of its R&D teams to develop cars like the FCX Clarity (outstanding car) and other models like it. Honda's R&D teams are quite small in comparison to others and their (financial) resources aren't nearly as plentiful as many other larger car manufacturers such as Toyota, Hyundai ETC ETC. Honda is investing in the next generation of vehicles not more of the same that's currently offered by just about every manufacturer.

- Even though Honda shifted a large portion of its R&D, I don't think that is an excuse to produce some of the "average" products Honda currently offers. We expect more.

- I know this sounds a bit cocky, but given the substantial change in the automobile THAT WILL occur within the next 15-25 years, Honda will AGAIN be a dominant force in providing fun yet environmentally friendly/responsible products. Mark my words.

If you are smart enough to read between the lines (this video, one of the many from the "Dream the Impossible" documentary series) pretty much tells you where Honda is going. Watch it as it's really interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eVO5mkjeh0

"Where did the so-called Japanese BMW go wrong?"

The problem is, they were never the "Japanese BMW". That has always been Infiniti, and continues to be so. Acura is now more like the Japanese Audi.

Well I've been losing interest in Honda as years go by. I absolutely loved my 84 Civic wagon. Still miss that thing. When it died on me, the only hatchback option was the 98 Civic 3 door. Wanted 5 doors, but I went with the coupe because I wanted another Honda. When I was finally ready to let that one go after 247K miles, there was nothing in a 5 door configuration that I'd even consider. The Fit, though practical, was way too small. The Element and CR-V are nothing I'd ever desire to own. Eventually left Honday for a 5 door Mazda6. And now that I've seen the Cross Tour, I'm very glad I made the choice I did.

"The problem is, they were never the "Japanese BMW". That has always been Infiniti, and continues to be so. Acura is now more like the Japanese Audi."

Drew, I STRONGLY disagree as ONLY on paper is Infiniti anywhere near close to BMW. When one considers and compares the vast (successful) racing heritage, philosophies, innovations, execution levels, overall ideas..... BMW, Honda and for that matter Ferrari have a substantial amount of similarities. With that said, there are many parallels between Honda's, BMW's and Ferrari's performance strategies, and consequently, they are all manufacturers I admire more than others.

The all tend to go for lightweight, high revving NA engines (with BMW changing course just recently, which turned me off), that are ultimately responsive, precise and engaging, just to various degrees based on their price point. The Honda Type R, BMW ///M and Ferrari Scuderia/Challenge/ Challenge Stradale philosophies are unsurprisingly (to me) similar.

"Where did the so-called Japanese BMW go wrong?"

2001. Honda killed the Prelude, the Integra (in the US), and every Accord and Civic thereafter got considerably heavier and less refined. Additionally, that's when the Civic lost the double wishbone suspension. Clearly, that was the turning point.

I was going to challenge the 'Japanese BMW' comment myself, since I have never viewed Honda that way.

Josh explains his logic well enough, but as admired as Hondas have been, Honda has never been the first car to come to mind as a Japanese alternative to the 'Ultimate Driving Machine'. Pre-Lexus I would have ID's Honda as a Japanese Mercedes. Rock like quality, excellent ride, exceptional resale value.

Acura and later Infiniti tried to stake out the 'Japanese BMW' territory. But neither was completely successful. Acura has steadfastly refused to produce a RWD sedan, and Infiniti sqandered the capital created by the original Q45 and G20 with years of boring cars until finally finding its way back with the G35 and M35/45.

It's cheesy, but Top Gear's take on the UK version of the last Civic Type R agrees with you exactly.

Jeremy complains that the last generation car was slightly lighter, slightly more responsive, had slightly better gas mileage, and understeered a little less. The new one cruises slightly better and has leather seats and a nicer stereo.

The newest generation Civic Type R is just a little bit worse than the old one, and that's not okay for a company like Honda.

Have any of you test driven a newest gen Civic yet? Numb steering (hooray for EPS), squishy + slow responses, and quite a bit of weight. It feels similar to a Corolla, actually, except the wind noise is worse.

I loved my old '89 accord.

But, would not buy the new one.

"Now, I'm searching for reasons why I shouldn't tell people to buy Fords or Hyundais instead."

More like Mazdas and Subarus. Back in the 80's it was all about Toyota and Honda, in the 90's Honda ruled the younger crowd.

Now everyone I know in their 20's wants a Mazda or Subaru.

I still like some Hondas but most remind me of focus groups. Product designers ask a lot of people what they want and then they just throw it all together and make a car.

It maybe a way to make money in the short term but no one loves a compromise.

If you have to try and draw parallels, Honda=BMW is right, because Toyota=Mercedes.

For most of the 30+ years of Accord vs Camry, the Camry was more vault-like, softer riding, quieter and felt more solid/substantial (ie like the Benz stereotype). The Accord was quicker on its feet, feeling sportier, stiffer riding, and with less isolation between road and driver (in both good and bad ways).

I think Toyota rides and handles more like a Cadillac than a Benz.

My Fit reminds me of my 89 Civic Si hatchback. Light, easy to rev & shift, and can drive the snot out of it & still get 30 mpg. I like the Element, too, but didn't need something that big.

Today's Accords are terribly ugly on the outside and poorly laid out on the inside.

I absolutely agree with this blog post. The Fit represents the best of Honda. It represents a time when Honda made lightweight, fun to drive, fuel efficient, fantastically engineered vehicles. The Fit is a simple car like Honda's of old, but don't confuse simple with cheap. Make no mistake, the Fit is engineered to a very high level. I have not had a SINGLE thing go wrong with my 2009 Fit Sport in the year I've owned, nothing, not a squeak, not a rattle, not a single strange noise.

American Honda has lost its way. The company now tries to appeal more to the fat lazy American, than to make cars for the home market that Americans also loved. And just like the typical American, Honda's have grown too big in all dimensions and lazy. No longer can you get a manual transmission for 2010 on any of the top trim levels in the Accord, Fit, or Civic. There is no V6 six speed sedan and there probably won't be, and Honda just killed off the last of it's truly great cars, the S2000.

The Fit is a dying breed, and probably represents the last car of its kind from Honda that has distinct ties to its past. Sad really, but at least their cars are still better than anything Toyota makes these days, another company that has gone to sh!t with their cars. But the Camry is the number one selling sedan in America so what does that say about American driving taste? We demand turds like the Camry and that's what we get.

I need to move to Europe, I really do. I am so not American in my choice of cars, women, architecture, and lifestyle.

In my eyes my generation has seen Honda's as the "Tuners Starter Car" Get a cheap Civic and go out buy some performance parts from the massive sea of Civic parts bolt them on and suddenly you are a tuner.

With Honda dropping or redesigning the cars that the youth want they have set themselves a trap.

Green is nice but the Tuners that gather every night at the Taco Bell parking lot they gave you the bank roll to go green in the first place... Never forget that Honda.

I agree that 2005/6 was Honda's best year.

The Pilot, although bland, was good looking, quick, versatile, reliable, etc. etc....and it sold extremely well. Everyone you'll ever talk to either has a Pilot or knows someone who does. The Civic is still good (Honda's best design) but back in 2006 it was such a groundbreaking design that it had companies like BMW talking about how to copy it, inside and out (I remember reading several articles about this).

The 2006 Accord was sharp looking on the outside and (at the time) had the best interior in its class, by far. Good design, BMW-like leather, materials, etc. Now, it is bloated, strange looking, and has become too heavy for the V6 to really pull like it used to.

The old gen Fit was best in class, but others are closing quickly, and the interior is worse than the old one. Plus, it now looks like a wedge of cheese.

The Ridgeline, Element, Pilot, Accord, and Odyssey are all uglier in 2009 than they first were because Honda insists on making them heavier and slapping that hideous front end onto them. Plus, where are the HID's, wheels larger than 17 inches, and even simple things like projector beam headlights, LED taillights, etc?

It seems like Honda can't keep up with the latest trends in automobiles and they are suffering because of it. Mazda has become the new Japanese BMW and has pretty much replaced Honda in the fun to drive category, which is why their sales numbers have increased dramatically in the past 5 years despite the slow economy. Honda's sales are starting to slip....slowly, yes, but every avalanche starts out as a little snowball at one point. Honda needs to get their sh*t together.

Thank goodness they still have the Accord Coupe and the Civic SI. Those are still standout vehicles and good looking ones, too. The Coupe will rip 0-60s in the mid 5 second range all day.

"2001. Honda killed the Prelude, the Integra (in the US), and every Accord and Civic thereafter got considerably heavier and less refined. Additionally, that's when the Civic lost the double wishbone suspension. Clearly, that was the turning point."

I agree. People used to say that Honda was like BMW because their cars leaned towards the sporty side of the spectrum as compared with their rivals (sportier handling, higher-revving engines, and slick gearshifts). In 2001 when the Civic lost its dual-wishbone suspension and got heavier and Accords started getting noticeably bigger/heavier was probably the first step towards Honda losing their way.

Personally, I wouldn't look at any new Honda for my next car purchase. I agree with the above comment that Honda will likely dominate again once gas prices soar and their low-cost, fuel efficient, practical approach will pay off, but even then, I wouldn't purchase a Honda because driving for me has always been at least partly about pleasure and excitement. Honda just isn't delivering in that area anymore and while that may increase their sales to the "masses" in the future, that approach doesn't fit with what I want in a car.

yeah..fun to drive, quick, luxury and comfortable design...that's what people want.
So why isn't Honda delivering vehicles that suits our needs?
Do they not have the ability to do it? I don't think anybody would question that.
So why aren't they?
Think about it, in a few decades, when the black gold runs out, or reach a point where the price is just unreachable by everyone?
Where are you going to take your fun to drive and quick car then? In your garage?
Which manufacturer is going to deliver the vehicle that doesn't rely on fossil fuel at all, and at a price that everyone can afford?

Remember the words you say today that you will never buy a Honda again.
See you in the future.

"The EG6 and the DC2 will always have a place in my heart."

Lysine, the 1992-95 Civic and the 1994-01 Integra were awesome cars. I have a heavily modified Isle green/tan 1995 Civic EX sedan (EG9) and even after I purchased yet another S2000 (a 2005 S2K in Rio Yellow Pearl for her own project car and I took over the 2002 S2K for my next project car) I still cant find it in my heart to sell the Civic. We now have 5 (Honda/Acura) cars in the garage (1 double door and a single, I can park 2 deep) and the wife is b*tching at me to ditch the Civic. I keep telling her the recession is the reason it won't sell, muahahahahaha!

I know many of you are thinking, "it's just a Civic" but the combination of the stock EG Civic, the carefully selected aftermarket parts, the modified Acura Integra GS-R/Type R drivetrain and those wonderful double wishbones just all come together so well and the end result is a package that makes me grin ear to ear every time I drive it. Even with FWD, it has great traction (LSD), it's dead reliable, pretty fast (high 13's) , gets great FE, and I can beat the snot out of it and it simply just begs for more.

Mikeolan, I have to disagree with a few things you stated.

"Prior to this, Hondas were simply too loud, cheap, underpowered, and junky on the inside."

- Honda's have never been Lexus quiet and hopefully never will be.
- "Cheap" should equal inexpensive as the quality of materials back then was better than many competing brands and the durability of the interiors were 2nd to none.
- Honda has never been known for making over powered or brute powered vehicles as that's part of their core philosophy.

"I'm hard pressed to find another car with a vinyl headliner in the mid-90's but Honda did it like it was just coming in to style."

- Although the vinyl wasn't "luxurious" it was of good quality and much easier to keep clean as you could wipe it down with soapy water and it was like new again. Try that with a felt liner.

"Remember driving the 1998 CR-V? Wasn't pleasant at all. Okay they were fairly good handling but they were far from being excellent overall cars."

- Yes, we had a 1999 CR-V EX AWD 5MT. Loved that little thing. Sure, it didn't offer much power (no CR-V has), but the quality was good, it was efficient and it did what it was supposed to and did it very well. Better overall package vs the Toyo Rav4.

"Mazda has become the new Japanese BMW"

- Zooom, I guess if you look at it from a chassis dynamics only view, I could see a few similarities in chassis tuning execution. However, Mazda and BMW don't have similar philosophies and performance strategies. I still think that Honda and BMW are much closer overall and closer than any other Japanese company. Mazda has a very unique philosophy which certainly is a good thing as it makes their products desirable. Kudos to Mazda.

"Plus, where are the HID's, wheels larger than 17 inches, and even simple things like projector beam headlights, LED taillights, etc?"

- 18 inch (and larger) wheels are currently available on select Honda's.
- LED's were available on the 06-07 Accord's, and certain model year AP2 S2000's and the Insight.
- HID's were standard on the S2000. Although I'd like to see more availability on Honda models, I guess they're reserved for Acura. (Honda shot themselves in the foot)
- Projector beam headlights were on the last generation MMC'd Honda Pilot, reside in the current Accord coupe and current Honda Insight.

"It seems like Honda can't keep up with the latest trends in automobiles and they are suffering because of it."

- Maybe in terms of no available 6AT and electronic gizmos, I do fault them for that.
- Honda has never really followed trends (depends on the trend) as currently they are heavily investing and focusing on the next generation of the automobile. Forward thinking is what's kept Honda in business.

"Now, it is bloated, strange looking, and has become too heavy for the V6 to really pull like it used to. "

- Although the Accord has gained some weight (and size), the V6/5AT combo doesn't pull like it used to because of the VCM system. VCM prevents the V6 from making great production of torque at low to mid engine speeds because VCM rids the V6 of the VTEC's performance mechanicals. I actually hate the VCM engine as it's sluggish, unresponsive, lacks expected performance and lacks the eagerness that Honda engines are known for. I've knocked Honda for this many times and will continue to do so.

- On the contrary, the non VCM V6 in the 6MT equipped coupe is EXCELLENT! Great torque at any RPM, ultra responsive, ultra refined, efficient, very powerful (actually a bit underrated), overly eager while being more compact and less complex (SOHC design) than it's heavier, DOHC, dual VVT (intake/exhaust) competition. The Nissan Altima 3.5 6MT for example makes similar power, has a bit more torque, uses a DOHC design, has dual VVT, and REQUIRES premium fuel. The Altima 3.5 V6 6MT weighs less, has "the advantage of more engine technology" yet can't outperform the simpler SOHC VTEC V6, regular fueled, heavier Honda Accord. Looks like Honda still does more with less in some applications yet comes out better in the end.

- http://www.insideline.com/honda/accord/2008/comparison-test-2008-honda-accord-coupe-vs-2008-nissan-altima-coupe.html

- http://www.gtchannel.com/content.php?cid=10294

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asPpa51ZL80

"And someone tell me why Honda's V6 still uses a timing belt? "

- Chavis, because the V6's architecture dates back to the mid 90's. All Honda engines at that time used timing belts and Honda used timing belts initially because they are quieter in operation. Currently, only the Honda V6 uses a timing belt as all the 4cyls have switched to chains.
- You may also want to consider that Honda is the first manufacturer to implement dual VVT using a SOHC engine configuration even it was said to be mechanically impossible by other manufacturers. Doing so keeps it lighter, more compact and less complex. Pretty good for a engine that dates back to 1996.
- SH-awd would be another great innovation even though it's based from the simpler VTM-4 AWD system used in the Ridgeline and Pilot. Others have (BMW/ZF) and will (Audi) copy the successful and innovative design.

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asPpa51ZL80

Although I do agree Honda has steered off its course with some of its current mainstream products, I still think Honda is ahead of the pack. Why you ask, their investment in the future.

- http://www.gtchannel.com/content.php?cid=12902

- http://www.gtchannel.com/content.php?cid=10724

- http://www.gtchannel.com/content.php?cid=10720

To many of the above comments:

The Accord before 2003 wasn't anything to write home about. A crappy 4 speed transmission that crapped out just after the warranty period, vanilla styling, and low-grade interior appointments- all of which were greatly improved with the 2003 Accord which simply became excellent and everything. The Accord simply schooled everything in regards to power, efficiency, and interior quality. Why Honda couldn't build upon that we may never know, but they didn't- they screwed it up royally with the 2008 Accord- possibly one of the worst cars in its class.

Oh, let's not forget the last-generation Civic, which had the build quality of a Yugo (Car and Driver ranked it Sub-Focus... OUCH!) Or the last-generation Civic Hybrid, with CVT failures every 25k miles. Or the original Insight, with its numerous battery problems. Even the current generation Civic Si has numb steering compared to even most mid-size sedans- it isn't very fun to drive beyond revving the engine.

At the end of the day, you're stuck with a company that builds neither sporty nor comfortable, nor efficient products that sell only under a rapidly-deteriorating facade of reliability. Their four cylinder engines can't really match the torque or power band of their competition, and their V6 engines are second-rate also-rans that rely too much on complex noise cancellation systems to minimize their crudeness.

@HondaAcura4: The Altima is mostly confined to the limitations of a FWD platform when comparing 0-60 times from a standstill (front wheelspin, etc.) In most other performance measurements the Altima smokes the Accord for both times AND efficiency AND handling AND ride comfort AND interior noise AND curb weight. (You can replace "Altima" with most modern sedans in the segment, too.)

Re. "Last week I called the Honda Fit the "no-brainer" winner among econoboxes, and nothing changed my mind in the spirited discussion that ensued. But what I'm stuck on today is the fact that the Fit is frankly the only no-brainer Honda has left"

COMPLETELY agree on both points.

Jaeger

"@HondaAcura4: The Altima is mostly confined to the limitations of a FWD platform when comparing 0-60 times from a standstill (front wheelspin, etc.) In most other performance measurements the Altima smokes the Accord for both times AND efficiency AND handling AND ride comfort AND interior noise AND curb weight. (You can replace "Altima" with most modern sedans in the segment, too.)"

Mikeolan, if you bothered to look at the Edmunds IL link I posted above it was clear I was speaking of the Accord COUPE 6MT's V6 and not the Accord sedan's.

In my previous post I bashed Honda for the implementation of the VCM V6 as it's an underachiever in performance, power delivery and response while returning small efficiency gains promised by the VCM system. Advantage Nissan.

You're post still doesn't make much sense as both the Accord and Altima V6 6MT coupes are traction limited especially the Accord 6MT as you can hear the tires fighting for traction in the video. The Altima beats the Accord to 60 by a tenth of a second and the the Accord takes and keeps the lead from there. Edmunds (and other publications) also determined the Accord was more efficient, more refined and built to a higher standard. The Motorweek video review I posted above showed even faster times for the Accord 6MT V6 coupe: 13.9 1/4 @ 101mph. Advantage Honda.

As for the Accord V6 sedan, aside from it's neutered V6 it's a competitive family sedan. The Altima has sportier suspension tuning but I think the Accord manages and transitions its weight in a more refined and composed manner as handling specs on paper don't transfer the information provided by doing real world testing. The Nissan V6/CVT sedan is quicker vs the Accord's VCM V6/5AT but the Accord V6/5AT gives you 3MPG more on the highway despite being in a roomier and 200lb heavier car. Compromises.......power and brisk acceleration vs better efficiency in a roomier, more refined package? Tie.

The Accord has proven to equal or better the Altima in real world testing in regards to fuel efficiency. Anyone who has a VQ powered car knows they aren't all that efficient and REQUIRE premium fuel for optimum performance and output. Given the Accord 6MT's V6 is a SOHC design, uses VVT only on the intake cam, uses regular fuel, is more refined, and faster while equaling the Altima 6MT's DOHC, dual VVT V6 in power, outrunning it in a roomier, 200lb heavier package tells me Honda did a better job. Advantage Honda.

As for the I4's, the Accord's 190hp unit is slightly smaller in displacement vs the Nissan, is much more refined and has comparable efficiency ratings (Nissan bests it by only 1MPG) even though the Accord makes more power and resides in a roomier, 200lb heavier car with an "outclassed" 5AT or 5MT vs the Altima's CVT/ 6MT. Advantage Honda.

The fact that this thread even exists and that fact we're having this debate proves that Honda had a sizable advantage over many direct competitors for many years until those competitors decided or in many cases, were forced to produce better products. Although there are many good products on the market (from various manufacturers) that equal or exceed Honda products in many areas, that still doesn't make me like Honda any less.

No, I don't drink the Honda koolaid as many "Honda enthusiasts" do as I have criticized Honda for many stupid decisions over the years. The FACT that I have consistently praised various cars from other manufactures (Mazda3, Chevy Malibu, Cadillac CTS just to name a few) proves that I'm pretty open minded when it comes to vehicles. That doesn't change the fact that Honda is still my favorite mainstream auto manufacturer. In the end, their current SUBSTANTIAL investment in a new breed of environmentally friendly products will give them back the lead in the near future. Happy motoring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eVO5mkjeh0

"But what I'm stuck on today is the fact that the Fit is frankly the only no-brainer Honda has left"

My first thought too but then I remembered another best in class honda.

The Odyssey is clearly the best minivan on the market. The Grand Caravan is a better price and has some cool features but overall the Odyssey is a no- brainer for minivan shoppers.

firstwagon,

I'd rather have a Sienna myself. Better powertrain, less road noise, nicer interior. Odyssey handles better, but who cares?

-JS

@Firstwagon: Until it catches on fire and burns to the ground.

or it gets struck by a meteor or a terrorist bomb or maybe sucked into a black hole.

SadButTrue

I thought the same until I drove one. The Siennea suffers from the same failing as the Camry and Corolla. Totally dull and uninteresting to drive. The ultimate in bland. The Odyssey is no sports car but it's very nice to drive. easy win for Honda.

Well said Josh. I've owned a number of Hondas over the years but there's nothing in the current line up that I would buy. No disrespect intended but it looks like Mommy Focus groups got a hold of the brand and killed it.

We actually drove a Sienna XLE Limted before purchasing our Odyssey Touring. The Sienna was nicely finished (as is the Odyssey) and had a few features the Odyssey lacked (HID's, AWD) but driving it was as interesting as driving a toaster suspended by marshmallows.

I do feel that the Sienna has a better V6 engine as it's powerful and responsive compared to the duller actions and responses of the VCM V6 in the Odyssey. Although only EX-L and Touring Odyssey trims are come with the VCM system, there shouldn't be a sacrifice in torque production or engine response as other more powerful V6's get similar or better economy (based on EPA estimates) with no dilution in performance. The same goes for the similar VCM V6 found in 5AT Accord's.

"Well said Josh. I've owned a number of Honda's over the years but there's nothing in the current line up that I would buy. No disrespect intended but it looks like Mommy Focus groups got a hold of the brand and killed it."

Benson, I feel the same to an extent although I could see myself in a Accord I4 coupe/sedan, Accord 6MT V6 coupe, Civic sedan or a Fit Sport if I was single and lived in a large metro area. The CR-V is a good vehicle (I don't need an SUV) also but there are some interesting alternatives on the market like the Chevy Equinox. I could see myself in a Ridgeline as I do quite a bit of home improvement/landscaping around the house (also my profession) as it gives me everything I need in terms of utility and performance yet doesn't provide the thing's I don't require like superior off road capabilities or substantial towing capacity.

I do feel the American market has changed Honda's ways of execution for the worse in a few applications, but that could be said for a number of other manufacturers as well.

The funny thing is that many here seem to have thought that various publications and Honda enthusiasts/loyalists felt that Honda offered the best product in every segment and had the best performance in every category. That's not the case at least with me as I've always thought Honda products were very GOOD at just about everything but the masters of none. That's the kind of package that I prefer.

As for Honda, I have faith in the company and Ito's change of course as I think Honda will refocus on the strengths that made them successful, address the current issues of the Honda/Acura lines while seeking to resolve the environmental drain the automobile causes. I think Honda has been and always will be a leader in that area as the FCX Clarity is an outstanding technological and environmental achievement.

http://ninemsn.carpoint.com.au/news/2009/large-passenger/honda/hondas-hydrogen-fightback-17297

@HondaAcura4 : I've thoroughly test drove the current gen Accord Sedan, and it handles like a barge compared to its more nimble competition (especially the Altima and Fusion.) Honda's chassis dynamics feel a generation behind (more likely do to the structural compromises to bloat it up so large) , and the steering is comparatively numb to both as well. If you're to test drive both, the crisp turn-in and confident shifting of weight just isn't present in the Accord, which can't decide if it wants to wallow or dig in and ups the harshness factor while doing so.

The CR-V is still a nice vehicle for its class, mostly because Ford hasn't really put much effort into the Escape, but that's faint praise.

The Odyssey is the best minivan.

I will give Honda credit for that.