2009 BMW M3 vs. Everyone Else

A 2006 Honda Civic Si does 0-60 in 5.9? is that right?

5.9 seconds to 60 in a Honda Civic Si is pretty quick... I'd guess it's a typo because everywhere else I've read quotes closer to 7 seconds for the Si's 0-60 time.

Really though, street races tend to boil down to a drivers' race, where the skill varies so much, because at a race track you'd assume that people there are generally more interested in driving fast and are therefore better drivers, or trying to be better drivers. I usually take street races with a grain of salt, too many external variables.

As for sizing up up the competition at a street light, it's always fun, but I don't think I'd ever race on public roads. I like to consider myself a fast driver, not a reckless one. I've had people rev their engines at me though when I'm in my GTI, but I've never taken up the challenge; it's a waste of gas to me, especially when you consider what people consider a "tuned" car in my hometown. It's gotten better, but not by much.

I'd also like to add that as far as sizing people up at stoplights, it's always nice to see someone who sizes you up because they "know" what your car is. Like some people who roll up to the M3 probably don't realize it's an M3. But people who "know" will notice the bulge in the hood, the wheel style, the quad-exhaust, the badging, etc.

People like that, are definitely cool in my book.

Caroline, isn't the 328 the 'regular' 3-series? That is no 5.3 car. The 335 is sure.

There is no stock Si on the planet that can do a 5.9 0-60. Even C&D (which gives low times for everything) says 6.7.

Sadly, I can't find any worthy challengers for my G8. Whenever I'm first at a stoplight, I'm next to grandma, a minivan or a pickup. That isn't any fun!

Ha, top this. I once had an early 90's Mercury MINIVAN trying to beat me at a stoplight. Needless to say, I ignored him.
The other challenges I've had include:
--Infiniti G35/37, mostly couples but also some sedans
--Nissan 350Z
--Mustangs of all shapes and sizes
--The indispensible Civic SI sedan and coupe. One tried to race me when we were both stuck in 5mph traffic. WTF?
--Previous generation Merc C230/C240 sedan
--Various SUVs and pickups--the bigger they are the faster they think they'll be, Newton's 2nd Law of Motion be damned.
I ignored them all. Not worth risking a big ticket and possible license suspension over some kid.

And a previous generation C65 AMG.
Since I never knew that car existed, I must be awfully unknowledgable about cars...
(or he just bought the badges off eBay for his C230).

I had a MazdaSpeed 6 revving his engine next to my SRT8 Jeep and the road was completely open with no cross streets so I punched it up to about 60. It was pretty amusing I took him by about 15 car lengths and let him catch up, he gave a thumbs up.

I don't get the idea of stoplight challenges. Are people so one dimensional that they are only capable of driving in a straight line? I don't see the thrill in burning as much fuel as the engine is capable of in a short burst and pound on the brakes to scrub off all that speed at the next light. It is more a show of wealth than driver skills.

The M3 can pull it off but it isn't meant for that kind of activity. Zipping around cars and turning at ridiculous speeds a la The Italian Job and Bourne Identity in a nimble car is the way I roll.

I once saw an SLK65 AMG 4MATIC Kompressor BiTurbo. A super-and turbocharged 6.0 L V12 with AWD in a roadster! For some reason it looked strikingly similar to an old 2006 SLK280... But the badging was hilarious- it stretched nearly across the back of the car.

Oh I also had an X5M SUV trying to race me when I had my 325i. BMW must be doing some secret testing here around NYC because that was about 3 years prior to they announced the M SUVs.

I don't remember what forum I saw this insightful tid-bit im about to share with you posted on or by who but it sort-of explains the mentality of a stoplight engine revver when confronted with a better/faster car:

These drivers aren't really trying to race you to see if their underpowered car is faster than yours. No, that can be determined with a quick Google search. The idea here is seeing if you "deserve" that pimp ride you're sporting. Can you handle all its glory? Do you know how to launch it and beat an underwhelming competitor? That's the idea. Because, if you do take them on, and fail - it's very amusing to them, and sort-of the whole point of their challenge.

So, I guess the best bet is ignoring a stop-light challenge... although it is fun to take them on sometimes and prove you are indeed worthy of sitting in that sweet ride (probably why the jeepsrt challenger gave him a thumbs up afterward).

In my town, every newer Benz I see is seemingly an E350 4matic, but any older Benz I see always have the eBay AMG logos!!

@jeepsrt- That's why the SRT-8 GC is the ultimate sleeper. Young punks don't know that they run sub 5.0 0-60's and low 13's 1/4 miles!!

0-60 times in magazines usually dont apply in the real world. they drop the clutch or use brake torquing that no normal person would do at a stoplight. i raced a civic SI could w/ a 2006 audi a4 2.0t and it was no contest. without a harsh launch the civic si has no torque and it takes at least 1/2 sec off 0-60 i think. street start (5-60) is a much better indiciatino of acceleration

+1 to operators. My '97 M3 attracted constant challenges from drivers that never stood a chance. With my '05 Saab 9-2X ~360awhp sleeper wagon I rarely saw a challenger that didn't (a) recognize what they were looking at and (b) bring enough muscle to play.

Now with my G8 GT I can't find anybody to play with...

My GTI seems to be a magnet for idiot 18 y/o taco bell employees in civics and neons with lots of plastic walmart pieces tacked on and ironing boards functioning as "wings".
They often get mad when i start laughing at them and try to exact their revenge by making me deaf with their fart-can exhaust tips.

If I catch myself getting annoyed with these people, I just remind myself that they are driving a 10 year old econo-bucket with at least $12.50 of mismatched plastic crap stuck onto it. In other words, they're not terribly bright. Why give them the time of day?

To echo others, the Civic SI won't do 0-60 in under 6 seconds. It's quick, but it only has 197 HP and VTECH can only do so much. Most times are closer to 6.5 seconds.

A 2005 Mustang GT will clock 0-60 in the mid 4 seconds, i've seen numbers as high as 5.5 for that car and as low as 4.6. Depends on the driver, but that engine, although small-ish for a V8, is definitely capable of putting down numbers like it has 400 hp. Ford's V8 is superior in the muscle car category (was back then, still is today).

Also, anyone who looks at your M3 and says oh hey its a 328 or even a 335 shouldn't have the right to race you in the first place.

street racing comes down to balls. i beat a lot of cars (when i was much younger), not because my car was faster, but i was stupider and was willing to go up to a higher speed then they were.

also, agree with what others have posted, .4-.5 sec's difference to 60 is a drivers' race.

the first couple of years owning my mustang gt were pretty uneventful but lately a lot of people have been challenging me. i was a bad boy a couple of weeks back on the interstate when a e39 5-series challenged me. triple digit speeds. bad, bad...

+2 to operators.

i've had people ask me to smoke the tires in my mustang gt because everyone knows that it can do it and they expect that if you are driving one you will take every opportunity to show it off.

it's like picking a fight with the big guy. no shame in losing, people expect it! it can only work out in your favor, especially if you somehow pull out a win.

Full disclosure: I am a Civic Si owner.

But I don't so much street race as I search for a willing playmate. Especially on long trips, its fun to find someone who wants to run their car. I once played leap frog with a C class while crossing the twin spans into New Orleans (about 1:00 am, roads totally empty). Just miles of dead straight bridge. We were dipping in and out of the triple digits and it helped pass the time.

Odd thing is, me and this guy were grinning like idiots the whole time, but his girlfriend and my wife both looked mortified. So yeah, pretty idiotic, but so very fun. I never presume I can beat anyone in my little car, but I do like to find a partner to drive fast with.

@jeepsrt: you don't live in Denver, do you? At that altitude not too many normally aspirated vehicles run very close to my 335i coupe (manual of course). The only real, and I might add ego-bruising, a$$-whipping was a Jeep SRT8.
Kids, in a light-to-light race those things hook up all four and positively leap off the line. Just wave politely and look the other way at a red light.

I have played "first one to the speed limit" with several friends and the looks I get when I do win (keeping in mind I'm driving a pickup) are worth it. Am I willing to race anyone who challenges no mostly because where I live the police just about have every corner watched but even if I could I don't think I would go over the speed limit.

95% of these "stop light challenges" everyone is getting are in their heads. Nobody cares about your car, don't be so self conscious any time someone pulls up next to you. I drive a sports car and I've never been "challenged" once.

You forgot one thing. Drivers who street race are very likely to be modding their car. They may be much faster than those 0-60 times you posted, except for the Civic Si time, which is ridiculous. Next time try to listen/detect what mods those cars have.

zoomzoom22 says:

01:40 PM, 11/18/09

To echo others, the Civic SI won't do 0-60 in under 6 seconds. It's quick, but it only has 197 HP and VTECH can only do so much. Most times are closer to 6.5 seconds.

A 2005 Mustang GT will clock 0-60 in the mid 4 seconds, i've seen numbers as high as 5.5 for that car and as low as 4.6. Depends on the driver, but that engine, although small-ish for a V8, is definitely capable of putting down numbers like it has 400 hp. Ford's V8 is superior in the muscle car category (was back then, still is today).

-----
Um, I'm with you on pragraph one, then you lose me on paragraph 2. A stock '05 Mustang GT couldn't lay down a mid 4 second 0-60 if the start was on a steep downhill.

Our esteemed friends here at IL got 5.9 out of the '05 GT when they tested it and 5.2 out of a 2010 GT (4.9 w/1FRLOADS). You have to go to the GT500 to have any hope of hitting that kind of 0-60 in a stock Mustang.

Funny thing for me is that I do not usually look for the challenges...but I welcome them when they come (if they are worthy). Most times it is some pick-up truck with loud pipes....I sigh and blow them away up to the speed limit and continue on my way (I drive a modded 135i BTW). Most times when this has occured it is because my GF is egging me on...she is such a speed-freak...LOL.

But seriously has anyone ever considered that sometimes those people just want to see what your car can do? For example I would love to race a GT-R at a stoplight.....Why you ask? Because where else can I see a car like that do 0-60 in real life?

Sometimes those "challenges" are presented because they want to see if the driver of the faster car will actually drive it like it's supposed to be driven. I've done this to a Carrera GT, BMW M3, Mustang Cobra and a few Corvette's while in my S2k. It's not that I think I'm faster, I just want to hear the exhaust notes and to really get a feel of how much faster those cars are vs my S2k.

Those cars of course can outrun me now but after that GT35R turbine is installed...........

I haven't gotten any challenges in my 2009 335i sedan. Must be the quad pipes, wheels, and hood bulge of the M3 that's getting everyone's attention.

It's America, land of the underdog. You can be driving a Bugatti Veyron and the guy in a 90s Dodge Neon is still thinking "I can take him!"

That's one thing I still like about my MS3; most mullet-heads and idiot ricers don't know what the car is- so I have the pleasure of thumping them on a regular basis.

i always enjoy embarrassing people at the lights.. i'm a child

Interesting thread. I find that many (most) FWD stoplight warriors don't really understand that their cars, no matter how much power they have, are limited by the grip of the front tires. If I look over and see typical summer performance tires (or corner tire store specials), I usually don't even bother. If they've got some drag radials or DOT legal race tires, then things might be worth a go. But woe be the performance car driver who underestimates the suspicious Civic hatch in the next lane on the freeway. A big turbo and enough traction to use at high speeds makes for a quick car.

One thing I find funny is that of my two performance street cars, far more people try to goad me into a race in my S2000, which looks totally stock from the outside, save for a 1" suspension drop. It's usually someone in an E46 M3, or a supercharged AMG Benz. Rarely, when I'm driving by the Porsche dealership I run into a 911 looking to throw some weight around. It's almost like a stock S2000 is fast enough to be worth racing, but not so fast that they think they'll have to worry about losing - you know, kind of an ego booster. Of course, said S2000 has run low 12's (and will probably go 11's now) and with a 2000 rpm launch will run 0-60 in 4.5 seconds. It'll go quicker still with a higher rpm launch, but they can't even hear the car (or the blower) at 2000 rpm at the light, so they usually aren't as focused when the light turns green.

By comparison, my Evo is somewhat quicker to 60, but slower afterward. But in the almost 9 months I've had the car, the only cars to hit me up at a light were a Scion xA, and on the freeway, a modded WRX. The Evo apparently has a big street rep, so many folks don't bother messing with it, even though it requires some effort - make that a very obvious effort - to get a good launch from a stop. If an Evo (or WRX) owner isn't revving at 4k+ rpm, they're not going to launch very hard and aren't going to be too fast to 60.

I guess perception of power is at least as important as actual power and the ability to use it.

I only "race" when I need to make a maneuver, say catch a freeway on-ramp a couple lanes over. I am almost never up against someone I wouldn't beat, but I have been deliberately challenged several times. In the ///M an F-body Camaro SS wanted to drag me on the freeway, another time an '08 M3 sedan did the same (why??). The strangest was a Civic Si that pulled up a couple lanes over from me while sitting at a light. The female front passenger leaned out the window and starting yelling at me at the top of her lungs, "Hey you! You in the white BMW!!! Let's race! Come on let's go!!!" I did not oblige.

"jeepsrt says:

12:22 PM, 11/18/09
I had a MazdaSpeed 6 revving his engine next to my SRT8 Jeep and the road was completely open with no cross streets so I punched it up to about 60. It was pretty amusing I took him by about 15 car lengths and let him catch up, he gave a thumbs up."

I HIGHLY doubt you took a MS6 by 15 car lengths to 60 unless the driver completely sucks at driving a stick. I used to have a MS6 myself (now have a G8 GT) and when I was completely stock, I would only lose to my friend's Jeep Srt8 by about 1.5 car lengths. With only $2.5k in mods which included a beefy differential mount and grippy tires, my 0-60 was consistently 4.3-4.5sec.(per DashHawk).

i used to have a 1996 black 300zx non turbo. i did fairly well against most cars that i raced. and had people wanting to do highway pulls all the time.

ever since i got my twin turbo Z, and i have the twin turbo badge in the back, people seem to be scared to race me lol. it's nice though i recently saw what was possible on pump gas with stock turbos with fairly few mods and around 450whp on 93 should be possible.

i raced my buddies E46 M3 and he always got the jump on me due to the response of those motors. but i catch up the higher the speeds get.

it was pointless for me to race anyone in my WRX... i only had 500hp, which makes me low man on the totem pole among my speed freak friends, and the fastest cars to try and race me were stock and they had no chance. (Lamborghini's, Porsche Turbo's, etc.) other modded cars that try to race me on the street really had nothing major done... its really disappointing to find out that the obnoxiously loud EVO or STI next to you has nothing more than a loud exhaust and blow off valve...

I agree with adrean8j and hondacura4 -- most of the challenges are from people who want to see what your car can (or what you will) do.

@crowb

Agreed crowb. I own a Si as well and can agree with the same sentiment. It's fun to meet people on the road that share our enjoyment of motoring goodness. I know for sure that the Si won't beat a M3, but that doesn't mean I don't like seeing what the car is capable of. Heck, I'd egg on a Ferrari or a Lambo just to hear them run through the gears, though they'd probably just laugh.

I'll say this too, I'd bet that 90+% of Civic Si, Mustang GT, Cayenne S, and G35 owners out there can easily recognize an M3 over a regular 3-series. Think my estimate is too high? Maybe I have too much faith in people that own sporty cars.

Gongal -- trust me, not that many people who drive sporty cars recognize others. Many people have the mentality of buying or leasing the most expensive or option-laden version of a vehicle, or the salesman upsold them to the more expensive sporty model. Out of the four vehicles you named, I'd say the Mustang GT drivers are the most saavy, closely followed by Civic Si drivers. And that depends on where you are.
That's why it is fun for me to meet a fellow enthusiast as well.

I never get challenged in my Kia Soul. Its pretty obvious to those beside me at a stoplight that I'd bring them then HEAT!

@trickshot: dashhawk is a joke. The times it generates are waaay off.

@ sgude

I think it depends on the driver as well as the car. I see a lot of clueless people driving Mustang GT automatics in my area. The lady that cuts my hair drives an Si and she has no clue about cars. She just wanted to drive a stick shift and got upsold from a regular Civic to an Si. She didn't even know the engine required premium and was different from the regular Civic's 1.8L.

Going back to what some of the others have said, its the most fun just seeing what other cars can do and having some fun with another driver. I never treat it like a race, just good fun between two people. Maybe the other guy is sitting there with a chip on his shoulder, determined to "beat me", but for me its a cooperative thing.

Every now and then, you run across a fellow driver who gets it and it makes it so fun. There's another black Civic Si in my area that I see on the road from time to time. He always salutes me with some nice stacato engine revs when we meet.

dougtheeng says:

06:12 AM, 11/19/09

I never get challenged in my Kia Soul. Its pretty obvious to those beside me at a stoplight that I'd bring them then HEAT!

ROFLMFAO

I definitely agree with the "playing around on the road" comments.

I got to play with an RX-8 around here that looked like it had some minor exhaust work done. I've only got the (non turbo) 2.3 4 cyl Mazda 6, but it's still nice to run around on twisty roads with someone who's having as much fun as you are.

Some of them have aftermarket mods that they now want to benchmark to see if they can beat a particular car. The M3 is well known how fast it is, and is a good benchmark. Same thing happens all the time with my Z06. Depends on the situation and the challenger. Some I choose to ignore because it's not worthy of wasting my gas and risking my license, or it's just not a safe environment (some people race in the dumbest, most unsafe locations - I don't). Some I entertain and 99% of the time show them my taillights.

Good post...

I own a 07 Mustang GT-a few performance mods

I completely agree with many others that most of the challenges are from people who want to see what your car can do. I live in rural WI, so I don't see too many performance vehicles. With that said, I don't get many stop light challenges. If I do, it's usually diesel 4x4 pickups, or random n/a fwd 4 cyl cars. Basically, if I think it'd be competitive, the area was okay, and they initiate it, I'll bite.

@huyracing:
I guarantee you that a new 2010, all-stock, 500hp 911TT w/PDK trans. & launch control would blow your 500hp WRX into the weeds! Even the previous-generation 911TT w/automatic trans. would take off and hide from your car - auto trans. 911TT were actually faster than their 6-spd. manual counterparts. Your WRX probably required high octane fuel and/or meth injection etc. to achieve 500hp, so we're probably looking @ right around 400-420 on pump gas vs. a stock Porsche @ 500hp on 91-93 octane, correct?
Your ego's just lucky you never encountered a slightly modified 911TT, and a driver willing to take a pretty big risk against a WRX.
Don't believe me? Just take quick look on YouTube for 911TT videos.

@m3shmem3
I live in Colorado Springs, I actually thought the race would be a little closer but I just left him at the line, I slowed down and he caught up and passed me laughing and giving the thumbs up. I have yet to line up a 335i but have driven a few of them and they are very nice.

@triksh0t Edmunds has the 0-60 for a Mazdaspeed 6 at 6.1, so you dropped almost 2 seconds off your 0-60 from a couple of mods, I highly doubt it. I have no reason to make this up, if I was going to make a race up, it for sure would not be a MazdaSpeed 6. I actually got beat by a Cayenne turbo S from a roll which Jeeps are not good at going from.

Hey charlesncharge, don't underestimate what can be done with a WRX. 500 whp does not require methanol, even on CA 91 octane, if you have the right turbo and setup (I'm thinking GT35R). Hell, there are plenty of guys with import 4cyl engines (from various makes) that are hitting 600 and even 700 whp on pump gas and stock blocks. I don't recommend that, not one bit, but some guys get a kick out of finding the limits like that.

And don't forget that a WRX, especially the older ones, are pretty light. At least 200 lbs less than a 911 turbo. But for simple comparisons, just note the 2007 911 Turbo Tip that Edmunds tested. 0-60 in 3.4 and 1/4 in 11.6@118 - quickest car they ever tested. Now note the Project Evo X. Heavier than a 911 (or WRX), wrong launch limiter and maybe 400-420 crank hp. Still ran 0-60 in 3.9 with a 113 mph trap speed. Get the launch right and you're looking at 0-60 in the mid 3's and a 1/4 in the mid 11's at 115-116 mph or better. Now, imagine said car with another 100 hp, less weight and the mods to use it and you've got Huy's car. Do you really think that a stock 911 Turbo of any vintage, or even a slightly modified one, is going to run off and hide from a car like Huy's?

I drive a modded and fairly loud C6, stock internals, but sounds scary when it's standing still. Surprisingly, only 1 or 2 people have tried to race me since I've had the car. Typically, my GF is in the car, so a race will simply NOT happen anyways.

One such occassion where I got on it was an M6 coupe from a stoplight on my way to work in the morning. He took me by surprise, no revs, no looks, not even a smile, he just nailed it off the line, I saw him go and I spun through 1st and 2nd but stopped his pull and let off. I see him every so often.....If I ever get him lined up at 7:15 again....his a$$ is mine! LOL

lmbvette would never exceed the posted speed limit of 40.

@huyracing:
Looks pretty stock to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5xMyVaqtkU&feature=related
Rear engine + AWD = great traction off the line!

@Church123:
I know what you mean, but my point is that it's sometimes difficult to make reliable power with a modified vehicle vs. one that's already starting out at a higher level straight from the factory.
It's hard to beat the consistency of an automatic when it's mated to a turbocharged engine.
Now, please say a prayer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5xMyVaqtkU&feature=related
Amen, my brother, amen!

@jeepsrt. First of all, most car reviewers didn't know how to properly launch a MS6 and what rpm to shift. By launching properly and speed shifting at the correct rpm, a 5.1sec 0-60 on a stock car is easily attainable. The Mazdaspeed6 was best launched by *slightly* slipping the clutch at ~4300rpm (not dumping the clutch). Shifting at redline (6700rpm) actually makes times alot slower due to power dramatically decreasing after ~5800rpm (all stock bypass valves leaked at high rpm). Speed shifting at 5900-6000rpm kept the car in it's powerband.
As far as knocking 2sec. off my 0-60 time. I actually only knocked about a second off my stock time. My mods included: Spec Stage 2+ clutch, Turbine Tech Front Engine Mount, CP-E rear engine mount, Turbine Tech Rear Diff Mount, ETS Top Mount Intercooler, Cp-E Intake, Custom midpipe, Forge Bypass Valve, Turbosmart Boost Controller (set to 18psi), Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec tires (most parts were purchased secondhand). With these mods, I had 18psi to 6400rpm that tapered to 16psi by redline and a firmly bolted down drivetrain that would take the abuse.

btw, if what you said happened with the guy in the MS6 did happen, that was a HUGE FAIL on his part. I feel embarrassed for him. lol
____________________

@audisport As long as the speedometer is accurate, DashHawk times are fairly accurate for awd cars that don't spin their wheels past 60mph.

@church123 &
@huyracing:
I'm still waiting for a 9-second, street driven, daily driver Subaru WRX video.
I hope you took notice of that trap speed, too - that's one-liter sport bike territory!
Vehicle's curb weight is one thing, but how a vehicle hooks up counts for an awful lot, too!

I find the lack of torque makes the M3 a lousy stoplight drag racer. Consequently I combine avoiding looking bad with avoiding tickets. It is even hard just to keep up with normal traffic. Sure, if I redlined it in 1st and powershifted 2nd, it could do well but that makes for a lot of noise and attention that one doesnt need.

My old six speed 540 with a couple of mods was much better at that particular sport as a couple of porsche's and at least one jag xj could attest as long as I remembered to disable the traction control.

@ Retiredtwice -- The 540i six-speed I test drove a few years back was an absolute beast with a lovely exhaust note. If I had the means at the time, I would have had it. I can easily see it taking down a couple of Porsches. I would probably not have given the Jag time of day.

I don't do stoplight races: it's asinine. If they want to race, then do it on a track where the complete car and drive equation are assessed.

@retiredtwice - agree. The M3 is not optimized for this kind of challenge. It's a track or tricky B-road kind of car. Have owned a 540i and it's a great car :thumbsup:

Just ordered a 335d as my DD: I suspect this car - with more torque than a 5.7L Hemi in a 3-series (!) - will be an absolute sleeper in typical urban driving requirements. Maybe I will start doing the stoplight drags....