2009 Hyundai Genesis V6: Even BMW Owners Like It

Glancing at that picture, it even looks like a 5 series.

"Rides a little too soft"

Are you kidding?! This is the bounciest, firmest, most nervous and jittery suspension this side of the Yugo!

No disrespect to your friend but given that he has a 5"28"i, I would assume he's a bit (maybe just a tiny bit) of a brand snoob (nothing wrong with that though)... So sure he likes the Genesis, I like it too but here comes the million dollar question:

Would he consider buying one over his 528i?

It's not just BMW owners that like this car as many Honda/Acura enthusiasts have said similar things. Some over at TOV have said if this was the new TL (with Acura drivetrain, suspension tuning and TL interior of course) it would have been more well received vs the real TL.

Of course the styling of this car isn't nearly as bold and odd as the TL but the Genesis looks the part as even the detailing is right. You could easily slap a Lexus, Acura or Infiniti badge on this car and few would know the difference.

I currently own a 2 yr old 7 series and my parents also drive BMWs. After we gave up on Detroit, the cars in our family have been mostly Mercedes and BMWs (and one SAAB which was a bad bad bad mistake). I did not finance/lease my car so I am sure I will hang on to it for a few more years to justify the steep initial depreciation. However when my dad and I went to check out the Genesis, we loved it (v8 especially). I would not mind trading in my car for one of these and I know a few people who have gotten the Genesis when their BMW/Merc lease was up.

A lot of people think that the Genesis is a poorman's luxury vehicle. However I don't think that's entirely correct view of how people assess this car. I haven't met a former Audi owner with the Genesis yet though.

BTW a 528 has a plenty of power for everyday driving and freeway passing. I even rented a 523i in another country and had no problem driving it for two weeks. After spending two weeks with 523i, it made a lot of sense to me and wondered why it was not available in the States.

I think the point is Hyundai has a good car for once and not just in value. It does have an identity crisis though. I saw one in front of me and I thought it was a Lexus. Hyundai has yet to deliver its own "identity." (acura's weird V, Lexus' curves, Infiniti fish, BMW nostrils, Audi simpleness)

I don't own cars for the sake of identity. If the new Acuras decided to have ugly as their identity, good for them. Even if I buy an Audi, it won't be for the sake of its identity. Image perhaps but not identity. Come to think of it I don't have particular traits I have in mind when shopping for cars. I just look at what's out on the market, see what looks good and start comparing them to see what offers a package that I want to live with on a daily basis at a price that I'm willing to pay for. If I had money to burn in my fireplace, I would have a large luxury sedan for work and commuting, an M5 or S5 for the weekend, a Lambo or Ferrari just to show off to my neighbors, a large pickup truck just in case I might need one and a Hummer to hunt down militant environmentalists and Prius drivers.

I don't care if the car has an identity crisis. Not like I will foot the bill for a shrink or have to stay up all night listening to it.

Shame that even if the car is good, most Hyundai dealerships are still awful.

He may have complimented the car, but he wouldn't buy it. Hyundai has similar hurdles as the domestic automakers- many wont consider thier cars simply because they are concerned about what their neighbors would say. This is especially true of people in higher income ranges.

"Shame that even if the car is good, most Hyundai dealerships are still awful."

I don't understand this argument but its often made by people who want to defend buying overpriced cars. How often do you visit the dealer? I go 2-3 times a year for service. I wouldn't pay thousands more for a car just to get a nicer dealer facility.

Hyundai is everything that GM should be. The cars they have look better and better every year, quality is improving, and they stand behind their products with a hard hitting warranty. No cost cutting is apparant.

They have econoboxes for people that want those, a GT coupe that competes well with similar offerings, and a high quality luxury sedan. Throw a truck or two in there and that's the new Chevy.

Oh, and something hardcore for enthusiasts! Extreme Motorsport should be important to all car makers because it's important to me :-P

@1487: it's not just about the quality of the dealership's facilities--it's about the quality of service. Hyundai should take a lesson from what Saturn and Buick dealers have been up to in the last decade and a half.

"Hyundai is everything that GM should be. The cars they have look better and better every year, quality is improving, and they stand behind their products with a hard hitting warranty. No cost cutting is apparant."

GM and Hyundai are both doing the same thing at the same time. GM definitely has better styling inside and out. Hyundais are no longer dowdy, but their designs do not stand out at all.

"Hyundai is everything that GM should be. The cars they have look better and better every year, quality is improving, and they stand behind their products with a hard hitting warranty. No cost cutting is apparant. "

Dealers are independent. Your personal experience with one Hyundai dealer means little with regards to their overall network. In my area large dealer group sell various brands. If service is bad at one facility does that reflect poorly on that ownership group or the manufacturer?

""Hyundai is everything that GM should be. The cars they have look better and better every year, quality is improving, and they stand behind their products with a hard hitting warranty. No cost cutting is apparant."

Like it or not 1487, this is the truth. Sales prove it. Over at Kia, the Forte looks really nice and drives well also. Mazda has been in the US for 40+years and Kia has overtaken them in sales. Hyundai is something to be watched.

It is impossible for us to separate the packaging from the product - and this probably includes cars as well: that when we sit in a BMW, regardless of how it drives, we're affected by the "BMW" brand.

I think that Hyundai has some great products that span the needs of many consumers.

I continue to be extremely impressed with Hyundai in general and this vehicle in particular. An off-lease Genesis is a purchase I would well consider in a couple years.

I also find this bleating about the "non-luxury dealer experience" puzzling. As long as a dealer does an efficient intake of my vehicle and repairs / services it properly and promptly, I'm happy. The several grand I will save will buy me a whole lot of "free" cappuccino.

"I haven't met a former Audi owner with the Genesis yet though."

Current Audi owner here, I'd probably buy a Genesis if I didn't need a wagon or suv/crossover for dog-hauling duties.

"Dealers are independent."

Very true 1487, however they still represent the brand(s) in a lot of ways.

Speaking of Hyundai dealership experiences, my sisters Hyundai dealer (Glenn Hyundai Lexington, Ky) offers an exceptional and professional level of sales and service. Even though it's not an upscale dealership their practices speak for themselves as they sell tons of Hyundai products.

"Like it or not 1487, this is the truth. Sales prove it. Over at Kia, the Forte looks really nice and drives well also. Mazda has been in the US for 40+years and Kia has overtaken them in sales. Hyundai is something to be watched."

GM is outsold by Hyundai? News to me. Hyundai is relying HEAVILY on fleet sales to post these impressive numbers. The Big 3 have cut back on fleet sales- whom do you think has picked up the slack? Hyundai is making some nice cars but to suggest that their improvement over the last 10 years in unparalleled is a little presumptious. Like it or not the current lineup from GM is every bit as good as what Hyundai is selling. Not to mention GM competes in many segments where Hyundai does not. Why does every compliment directed towards Hyundai have to end up as a jab towards GM? Both are improving very quickly and both give Toyota reasons to be concerned long term.

"I also find this bleating about the "non-luxury dealer experience" puzzling. As long as a dealer does an efficient intake of my vehicle and repairs / services it properly and promptly, I'm happy. The several grand I will save will buy me a whole lot of "free" cappuccino."

You mean car dealers aren't about leather seats and quality coffee? What I love about luxury dealers is that they charge more for the same parts and labor you would get at a non luxury dealer. Why should mechanics at a luxury dealer be billed $20/hr more than "regular" mechanics?

@1487,

Are you really as dense as this always?? Where did bodyblue say that Hyundai had overtaken GM?? READ first before you jump in making your absurd claims! He said that Kia had overtaken MAZDA (which wasn't owned by GM the last time I checked)!

Tell me seriously, are you Bob Lutz???

@ wobbly_ears,

You are given him too much credit...

Thanks Wobbly.....

1487....Sales INCREASES are the reason Hyundai should be watched. Broken and bankrupt Government Motors is not going the right direction in sales. It still outsells hyundai. Should I type slower so you can understand better? Good products dont always mean good sales. Mazda has some really great cars that dont sell that well. GM has a few good cars....more mediocre cars and trucks and poor sales trends. It is contracting but still not making any money. Ford reduced fleet sales and is making more per car with LESS incentives per car than GM and Mopar. That is the right way to be going. Now back in your corvette jammies and back to bed for you.

wobbly:

Let me clarify- I thought you would be able to figure this out without further explanation. He said that the proof that Hyundai is executing much better GM can be found in the sales figures. I responded by asking him if and when Hyundai had surpassed GM in sales. GM far outsells Hyundai which suggests to me they are still know something about designing vehicles people want to buy. I think his point was that Hyundai is posting sales gains this year why GM is not- then again Hyundai is working its way up from the bottom and GM has been #1 in the US for 80 years or so. When you sell fewer vehicles to begin with you have the most to gain.

Try and connect the dots and stay with me. Read reviews of current GM and Hyundai products and they will note tremendous improvement and parity with Toyota/Honda products. That's not even debatable at this point.

All in all, a funny ending as usual when 1487 steps up....and the people that like to debate....mucho. lol

Hyundai is going up, up and up....but the million dollar question remains: the guy with the bmw 528i would buy this genesis instead of his car?
I won´t. But ain´t buying a 528i either....lol.

bodyblue:

Oh boy, you are going down a road so many others have already traveled. You aren't ready for primetime and the fact that you threw in "government motors" (how original!!!) speaks volumes. You cannot deal with reality and thus you are trying to make Hyundai's gain to be Gm's loss. Doesn't work like that. Both manufacturers are facing similar perception issues and both are making better products every year. I know all about sales increases and decreases. I know all about GM's sales. You failed to mention Toyota, Ford and Honda are facing serious sales declines this year as well. Are they too run by the government? Are they do making products that are lacking vs Hyundai? Hyundai has gained ground with clever ads, record high incentives, fleet sales and improved product. The fact that their product is better doesn't mean Gm's product isnt' better. Again, this isn't my personal opinion- this is the prevailing sentiment amongst auto publications. Motortrend just posted a new review of the Lacrosse in which they say its unequivocally superior to the ES350. Leave the tired "government motors" commentary on the bench and come with something legitimate.

"Good products dont always mean good sales. Mazda has some really great cars that dont sell that well. GM has a few good cars....more mediocre cars and trucks and poor sales trends."

When did I say good products = good sales? You made a statement about GM needing to take lessons from Hyundai about how to build good cars. I said GM is already doing that. That isn't debatable to anyone with a shred of common sense. As for their lineup- its actually got far more competent products than mediocre ones. Subtract the Cobalt, HHR and small pickups and GM's lineup is pretty solid. BTW, one could easily say Hyundai has "few" good cars. Smae could be said for Toyota. What's your point? Ah yes, there isn't one other than the same old tired GM bashing. In what alternative universe can the idea of Hyundai and GM improving simultaneously be impossible?

"Try and connect the dots and stay with me. Read reviews of current GM and Hyundai products and they will note tremendous improvement and parity with Toyota/Honda products. That's not even debatable at this point."--1487

Well, yes and no. Let's look at some market sectors individually:

midsize sedans: Accord, Camry, Sonata, Malibu, and let's throw the Fusion into the mix. Parity check? Achieved. Sonata and Fusion are the best values, but nobody makes jokes about the Malibu anymore either. Camry and Accord are coasting on brand loyalty, not on quality now.

compacts: Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Cobalt/Cruze, Focus. Parity check? Incomplete. Elantra arguably leads the pack here. Cobalt and Focus trail a bit, but both are due for replacements, and early reports on those replacements are encouraging.

subcompacts: Fit, Yaris/xD, Accent, Aveo, Fiesta. Parity check? Not yet achieved. Honda and the upcoming Ford are the gold standard here for the driving experience, with the Ford also probably taking the lead in interior quality based on early reports. If you want bigger-car feel, the Accent's the pick of the litter. The Aveo is roomy, but otherwise a relatively joyless conveyance. Yaris is just silly.

small-medium unibody SUVs: CRV, RAV4, Tucson, Equinox, Escape. Parity check? Not yet achieved. Toyota leads the pack here. Tucson is due for replacement next year. Recently redesigned four-cylinder Equinox is roughly comparable to CRV; optional Equinox V6 is a plus, but reliability is not yet established. Escape trails the pack.

entry-luxury sedans: Acura TL, Lexus ES, Genesis, CTS, MKS. Parity check? Achieved. The Acura, which used to be the leader in vehicle dynamics, has gone off the high-tech deep end. The Lexus is comfy and boring. Genesis seems to be every bit as well made as either one, and finds a better balance between handling and ride according to most reviews. CTS drives great, possibly the best of the five on the road, but still displays minor interior quality issues. MKS is overpriced and arguably uncompetitive--it would make a great competitor to the LaCrosse, if Ford dropped the price by an amount equal to the base price of next year's Fiesta.

1487, I could really care less about Hyundai actually. It is just fun to get a reaction out of you, you are so predictable. I dont care what car companies do what or to whom. Why should you? I tend to favor domestics just because I was raised in them and own them. Is GM making better cars than they were 10 years ago? Sure. Should they have gone out of business for making so many crappy ones over the years?? YOU BET. I find it offensive that one freaking dollar of my tax money went to GM and Chrysler. Cant compete? You lose...period. I find it hard to believe you even own a car actually. You sound more like a 14 year old with poster of corvettes and Farah Fawcett on the wall. GM does not care about you at all....

"CTS drives great, possibly the best of the five on the road, but still displays minor interior quality issues."

Such as? And don't be quick to quote Edmund's remarks on their LT CTS - one car doesn't necessarily indicate an epidemic. Motor Trend's long term CTS didn't display any of Edmund's issues.

It seems to me that IL has had just as many problems with the so-called 'premium' dealers as with the 'cheaper' makes like Hyundai.

You should expect that the $10k+ premium you pay for the BMW should get you a better car. But just because you are paying substantially more to BMW that doesn't mean the substantially higher profits for the dealer.

The gross profit on a base 528i ($3,665 per the Edmunds site) is higher than a Genesis 3.8 ($2,007), but the BMW dealer's operation costs will be higher, parts inventory costs more, which means higher interest costs on the loan the dealer probably uses to finance the inventory, the car inventory has a higher price which means that a 528 sitting on the lot for 120 days (at an invoice of $42k) costs more in interest expense than a Genesis V6 ($32k). You can throw in a higher mortgage for the fancier building that BMW requires its dealers to have.

body:

I got your anti bailout position. Take it up with Obama, I didn't authorize it and thus there is no need to post snarky comments rebutting mine simply because you are bent out of shape over the auto bailout. Not my decision, not my problem. My points still stand regarding the competence of the product. I understand you are one of those people who wants GM to suffer due to the tax money they got and are on a mission to let the whole internet know how you feel. That's fine, but GM's product is still much improved and wholly competitive.

What 14 year old has Farah Fawcett on his wall in 2009? As with most of what you said that comment made no sense. When you get angry and irrational you start saying things that are irrelevant. What does the fact that I pointed out the fallacies in your arguments have to do with me owning a car. There are several folks who make it their business to police my posts who can tell you what I drive- not that its relevant. Stop whining about the bailout and take that issue up on a political blog where you care vent about how the "free market" was not allowed to work.

Saying its not "fair" that GM got a bailout is akin to me saying its not "fair" that Toyota and Honda operate in a protected home market while they operate freely in the US market and their government manipulates currency to make them more competitive. Life aint fair.

"care" should have been "can".

I have been reading Motor Trend and Car and Driver since the mid '70s. I usually liked c&d better because they had more of an attitide (R&T was just too boring) Motor Trend has been the milder of the two magazines. I remember a test of an 1981 Granada with a 98hp six. It was "drivers, sporty, family car that was a lot of bases to cover with one product". Um yeah whatever. I do think that most auto mags have to make some consessions to their advertisers. It is a business after all so I am not ragging on them, just stating the truth. Consumer Reports says it is unbiased but that is BS as most of us know. They come from their own political point of view. So I dont believe anything I read for the most part...I tend to pick and choose and consider the source for my car info along with my own experience. I will buy what I want to buy because I like it and consider it a good value for my needs no matter what the brand. I cant believe in this day and age a person would blindly buy anything because of brand alone.......foreign or domestic.

As much as I like to make fun of 1487, I agree with him on the point that it is irrational to prejudge GM's products because they got the bailout. I do have my views on the bailout but I don't wish to expound on them on an automotive blog. But now that everyone's tax money is in the company, why should anyone wish GM to fail?? I wish that they succeed & succeed quickly so that everyone's tax money is out of GM.

The past few years, GM has been putting out competitive products. The Buick lineup, CTS, Malibu, Equinox, Torrent are definitely as equal, if not better, than Japanese competitors. However, there are some duds from the past such as the Cobalt, Aveo & HHR. Until their replacements arrive soon at the dealer lots, GM is severely handicapped in the low mass market.

Also, GM needs to amp up its warranty. No, gimmicks like 60 day money-back isn't going to work out. Stand behind your products & try to entice people into showrooms with something tangible to assure them. Saying that GM's quality is better than yesteryears isn't enough anymore.

Whether you like it or not, the 5yr 60k/10yr 100k warranty HAS helped Hyundai/Kia in the marketplace. Why is GM afraid of raising the warranty period??

"I cant believe in this day and age a person would blindly buy anything because of brand alone.......foreign or domestic."

What does this comment have to do with me? Nothing. Try this: pay close attention to what I say and refrain from making assumptions based on what other people say about me. You have NEVER read anything from me suggesting I only buy a car based on country of origin. NOTHING. I've owned 3 cars and one was a Subaru. You know what they about assuming......

Here is the real deal: many people get aggravated with people (like me) who refuse to be drawn into accepting the commonly held views of who is doing things right and wrong in this industry. I back up what I say about the products in question- its your choice to dimiss my arguments on the basis that I like cars based on where they are made.

"But now that everyone's tax money is in the company, why should anyone wish GM to fail?? "

I've been trying to figure that out for a while now. Its called cutting off your nose to spite you face. You are against the bailout so you root against GM and hope they go under so none of the money gets paid back. Its foolishness.

1487 that comment indeed had NOTHING to do with you so why are you responding to it? Oh now that I know you have owned 3 entire cars, how could I possibly have argued with your automotive experience. Now back to bed or you wont get your apple flavored Camaro Jacks for your bedtime snack.

This wasn't even a GM thread and it turned into a GM fight

Pretty stellar

If only GM comes out and say they are sorry for screwing people over and over and over with their crappy products in the past, maybe I can move on.

Hyundai folks came out and said our past products were crap and we will not repeat that mistake again and introduced the awesome warranty package that others in the industry scrambled to imitate. No doubt they are game changers even if you don't buy their products.

On the other hand, GM never admitted anything. They say their cars are now competitive and I can see how far Maliboo and some buicks have come in recent years. I grew up watching my dad spending hefty moola on cadillacs and also watching him scrambling to jump start his car too darn often. Did GM ever come out and say sorry we screwed our most loyal customers and we have addressed these issues? I don't remember them ever doing that. So the new Caddies are supposed to be awesome. I bet they have kickass engines. But will they start every time when I need to get my ass in the office and there are five inches of snow on the ground? I won't bet on it.

Im writing everyone of you a prescription for Valium, now play nice :)

"Also, GM needs to amp up its warranty. No, gimmicks like 60 day money-back isn't going to work out. Stand behind your products & try to entice people into showrooms with something tangible to assure them. Saying that GM's quality is better than yesteryears isn't enough anymore. "

Edmunds is saying consideration is up 15% so your claim that it's not working is premature. Why wont Ford or Chrysler or Nissan increase their warranty? Hyundai's warranty is partially responsible for their success, but products and incentives are a bigger factors. Lets not forget they have had the 5 year bumper to bumper for many years now. Their sales really started to take off in 2008 and 2009.

" However, there are some duds from the past such as the Cobalt, Aveo & HHR. Until their replacements arrive soon at the dealer lots, GM is severely handicapped in the low mass market."

Older products are typically the least competitive. One reason Gm is dumping brands and models is so that they can refresh models more quickly and keep a higher % of the lineup current. Cobalt will only be on sale for 6 more months. Besides, three dated models out of 50 or 60 isn't really a big deal.

" However, there are some duds from the past such as the Cobalt, Aveo & HHR. Until their replacements arrive soon at the dealer lots, GM is severely handicapped in the low mass market."

Numerous statements have been made and they even had an ad campaign discussing past mistakes several years back. Move on. Waiting for an apology is ridiculous. The folks that supposedly screwed you over are long gone, if not dead. Apologies are pointless under these circumstances. I don't recall any other automakers apologizing for recalls or poor quality.

"Hyundai folks came out and said our past products were crap and we will not repeat that mistake again and introduced the awesome warranty package that others in the industry scrambled to imitate. No doubt they are game changers even if you don't buy their products."

When did Hyundai ever apologize publically for poor quality? I've never seen any ads or seen any comments attributed to Hyundai leadership in which the company officially apologized to customers.

"But will they start every time when I need to get my ass in the office and there are five inches of snow on the ground? I won't bet on it."

5 year warranty covers the powertrain. GM is bettting the car will start for at least 100k miles- and its transferrable unlike the Hyundai warranty which applies to one owner only. If you follow the LT blog you would know vehicles such as the Fit, 370Z and Honda Pilot have left IL staffers stranded so your assertion that you stay "safe" by buying trusty imports is questionable. Most cars are reliable and any car from any manufacturer can have a serious problem that would require towing services.

"This wasn't even a GM thread and it turned into a GM fight

Pretty stellar"

There is no fight. Some people feel its necessary to trash domestic brands whenever they offer praise to a brand like Hyundai. Its unecessary but when you are obsessed with covincing others that domestics brands are inferior you can't help yourself. Is there really any need to criticize and slander domestics in EVERY single blog? Probably not, but its hard lesson to learn for some apparently. They cannot stand the fact that others don't share their mistrust and dislike of domestics and feel that they can still convert folks if they just spread enough misinformation and rehash enough mistakes from the past.

"Oh now that I know you have owned 3 entire cars, how could I possibly have argued with your automotive experience. Now back to bed or you wont get your apple flavored Camaro Jacks for your bedtime snack."

LOL! Great one- comedy is obviously your forte. That's how many cars I've owned- but you don't know how many I've driven. In the last 10 years probably 50-75. How? Through work, rentals, manufacturer events, edmunds events, etc. Just drove the new SRX, GLK and RX350 a few weeks ago in New Jersey. Furthermore, the discussion here doesn't hinge on actual driving experience since we are talking about the widely discussed competence of recent Hyundai and GM vehicles. I see why you had to change directions though- you were caught off guard when you learned I've owned an import brand and it made your previous statements look foolish.

@1487,

I stand by my claim that extending standard warranty is a good option for GM to condider. I have a coworker who is trying to decide between a CTS, Genesis and a Bimmer 3. But he has told me that he might be choosing the Genesis over CTS & 3. He likes the aggressive styling of CTS but is queasy about the Caddy because his last GM car engine threw a rod right after the warranty ended.

I still say the 60 day money back is a gimmick. It isn't like going to Walmart to return a 10 dollar pair of pants. You'd be signing all sorts of paperwork & make big financial commitments. People aren't going to sign those papers cavalierly.

Wow, haven't seen so much writing since copying my buddy's paper for the master thesis.

Hyundai folks admitted making crap cars. This is an introduction to the lecture Krafcik gave at MIT's sloan school (read below). My feelings wouldn't have been so hurt if only GM folks came out and said, "Sorry, we really didn't know what we were doing with all the electricals in a car before. But we hired a couple electricians and we have addressed the problem." We are talking about FEEELINGS HERE!!!!

In 1986, Hyundai’s first export to the U.S, the $4995 Excel, developed embarrassing quality problems, and the company found itself grist for late night talk shows. But John Krafcik recounts with pride Hyundai’s turnaround, from laughingstock of the American auto market back in the 1980s, to seventh best-selling brand in the U.S., and fifth largest car maker in the world.

By 1998, Hyundai’s name was so tainted in the U.S. that its market share fell to .4%, and the company was on the verge of pulling out altogether. But instead, says Krafcik, Hyundai determined to redeem itself, and win back car buyers with a focus on quality design and manufacturing, and with “America’s best warranty.” The 10 year, 100 thousand mile power train guarantee the company put in place, says Krafcik, was “an incredible clarifier for the engineering team,” forcing them to design systems for “infinite life.” Hyundai’s “top down, hierarchical management approach” proved critical, too. Chairman Chung Mong Koo combines “Bill Gates, Barack Obama and the Pope,” and “when he says we must do something, the company aligns well around that goal.” In 2001, Chung declared that Hyundai needed to beat Toyota’s quality standards in five years.

Unlike BMW’s approach of challenging the car owner, says Krafcik, the more “humble” Hyundai engineers focused on ergonomic engineering. An “obsessive customer focus” meant getting cars at early stages in the hands of real drivers, and using feedback to improve designs. Indeed, unlike Toyota, which imposes an engineering freeze at a certain point in development, Hyundai resolved to adapt to suggestions even late in the car development game: “If there’s an imperative for a late quality change, the system is adaptable to that change.” Also, Hyundai chose to design and build cars where it sells them. The result speaks for itself, say Krafcik: Hyundai’s achieved strong, consistent quality performance, rivaling the industry leaders globally.

Current challenges for the company involve developing a proprietary hybrid solution (with a novel lithium polymer battery) to achieve 35 mpg by 2015; and confronting “residual brand issues.” The economic crisis, which has reduced the world’s appetite for cars, could prove advantageous for “agile” Hyundai, believes Krafcik, which has been positioning itself prominently in the downturn, by, for instance, saturating the Super Bowl and Academy Awards with ads. Huge recent gains in “brand perception” have “Hyundai on a roll”, and Krafcik expects that the company’s persistence and passion will pay off, despite the grim times.

" super_ongoy says:

08:11 AM, 10/15/09

Hyundai folks admitted making crap cars. "

The difference is, GM has NEVER made cars as crappy as Hyundai has. Even in their darkest years with their crappiest products (Chevette, Cimmaron, Cavalier, Aztec, etc.) - those cars were still much better than the best 1980's-1990's Hyundais.

ongoy - you keep talking like GM has recently made the worst cars in the world. Yet, I don't think I've ever seen a GM brand at the bottom or even in the bottom quarter of quality or satisfaction ratings. Well, Hummer was once at the bottom, but that was when stupid people were buying them and then complaining about the poor fuel economy - Duh!!!

Seriously - name a GM product in the last 10 years that was truly awful, and prove it with bottom of the barrel quality and satisfaction rankings that was like the first Hyundai Excel. I'm listening....

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Buick/Regal/2000/

Now there was a crap!

Not that the Time mag is a car lover's best source but take a look:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/completelist/0,,1658545,00.html

And correct me if I am wrong. The Hyundai Excel was not build within past 10 years. So fair comparison has to be made during the period when Excels were imported to the US.

Anyway, that Genesis is sure a nice car...one that GM would love to have produced so well the first time. GM cars often turn out well, but not usually in the first few model years. That is where GM needs to improve......actually build a well designed car carefully and not rush to production.

Now this thread can die! :)

" super_ongoy says:

09:39 AM, 10/15/09

http://www.carcomplaints.com/Buick/Regal/2000/

Now there was a crap!

Not that the Time mag is a car lover's best source but take a look:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/completelist/0,,1658545,00.html"

FAIL - try again ongoy. I've never heard of carcomplaints.com before, and the Buick Regal was never a bad car.

Time magazine? Sorry, but one editor's opinion of cars doesn't count either. By what measure does he rate a Chevy SSR a bad vehicle? Just because he doesn't like the look or practicality of it?

Let's see some REAL data from a REAL publication that measures quality and customer satisfaction. Like JD Power, Strategic Vision, etc.

" super_ongoy says:

09:46 AM, 10/15/09

And correct me if I am wrong. The Hyundai Excel was not build within past 10 years. So fair comparison has to be made during the period when Excels were imported to the US."

Neither has any of the worst GM cars I've mentioned. So let's go back 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. Name it. Like I said, GM has NEVER produced a car as bad as the early Hyundais.

" bodyblue says:

09:47 AM, 10/15/09

Anyway, that Genesis is sure a nice car...one that GM would love to have produced so well the first time. GM cars often turn out well, but not usually in the first few model years. That is where GM needs to improve......actually build a well designed car carefully and not rush to production.

Now this thread can die! :)"

blueboy - How did you conclude GM doesn't build a well designed car carefully? How did you conclude they rushed their vehicles to production at the cost of design? Examples please. If you knew cars at all, you would know that GM tests their cars before production more than almost any other manufacturer. If there was any manufacturer who is apparently deficient in this area, it would be Nissan (GT-R launch control, transmission, etc.) and BMW (335 fuel pumps, E46 M3 grenading engines, M5 transmission overheating, etc. the list is long) right off the bat. Not GM.

And this thread is nowhere near dying.

wobbly-ears:

Someone buying a Hyundai because they have concerns about quality of GM product is interesting. A "thrown rod" is covered by the 5 year/100k warranty. if you don't want a particular car you can come up with a reason no to buy one. Not only is Hyundai's warranty not transferrable there are certain components in the car that are only covered for 3 years like the AC system and audio system. I just learned that a few weeks ago.

"That is where GM needs to improve......actually build a well designed car carefully and not rush to production."

Right, because the CTS, Camaro, Lacrosse, C6 vette, Equinox, Lambdas, etc. are all proof that when GM debuts a new model its half baked and in need of thorough improvement. Makes perfect sense to me. What is significant about the Genesis is what it delivers for the money and that its Hyundais first RWD car. Nothing about the car is actually groundbreaking or shockingly innovative. It just delivers far more for your dollar than any comparable luxury sedan.

"Seriously - name a GM product in the last 10 years that was truly awful, and prove it with bottom of the barrel quality and satisfaction rankings that was like the first Hyundai Excel. I'm listening...."

He wont be able to. When people demand things like Fritz Henderson come to their home and beg them to buy a GM product after offering a lengthy apology they aren't seriously considering a GM product. As I said, Hyundai nor any other automaker has ever publically apologized for lapses in quality. Toyota's CEO recently apologized for the floormat incident but no one even knows about that. Its not like they have put that in an ad or any forum that Toyota consumers would actually see. In fact, in spite of numerous recent quality glitches Toyotas current ad campaign is touting "the best quality in America" or something similar. Does that sound contrite or humble to anyone?

"I still say the 60 day money back is a gimmick. It isn't like going to Walmart to return a 10 dollar pair of pants. You'd be signing all sorts of paperwork & make big financial commitments. People aren't going to sign those papers cavalierly. "

In this case what you say is inconsequential. The terms of the program are clear and there isn't any ambiguity. A "gimmick" is something in which you lure people in with a promise and then tell them what they will get is something totally different. The terms of this plan are on the internet for any buyer to see. The point is that after test driving and reviewing the vehicles most buyers see no reason to pass up on the $500 offer since they know there is little chance they will return their vehicles.

Stingray:

If you scroll up a bit you will see bodyblue is still bitter about the bailouts so GM can do no right in his eyes. Everytime one of his "points" is addressed he shifts to a new reason to dislike GM products. Virtually every product GM has rolled out since 2007 has been solid from day one.

stinkray:
GM cars tend to get better with age (model years). how about the Citation as an example? Probably the worst American car for product problems ever made (all of the x-cars) But buy the end of the model run (Citation ll) it was a decent reliable car. If you knew anything about cars you would know that. Or how about the 1982 Camaro/Firebird twins.....Celebrity-Pontiac 6000.......all of the 80-90s A bodys....bad problems first few years but getting better near the end of the run. GM's quality control is its biggest problem..one that is improving for sure. So before you make an ass out of yourself with the little shots, be sure you can back up your accusations. OH and the x cars were no better than the Excel... you obviously arent old enough to remember how truly bad they were. A turd is a turd no matter who makes one.

bodyblue:

can you talk about cars from the last 10-15 years? Since you are praising Hyundai's current cars, its a little ironic that you are basing you opinion of GM on stuff from the 80s.

In terms of reliability I think its hard to say that GM as a whole was on par with Hyundai in the 80s. GM had hit or miss quality until the 2000s. Hyundai just had "miss" from a quality perspective.

The early 80s Gm cars may have been unreliable- I'm too young to know or care but I do know that has little relevance to the recent products I named.

Oh lord 1487 you are the master of being obtuse. Stink ray said "Neither has any of the worst GM cars I've mentioned. So let's go back 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. Name it. Like I said, GM has NEVER produced a car as bad as the early Hyundais."

Did you read that? I thought not. That is why I used those examples..do you understand now?

If you are too young to know then why are you talking about something you dont know about?

Take a pick of any source. CR or JD Power or whoever you want. GM has had a FEW products that were rated well in quality the past 10 years but they have not been on a level as a whole as other makes. I think they are on the way up there is no doubt about it. But what I am saying is that Hyundai turned it around a lot faster than GM did and I think they are a bit ahead of them now in quality.....even it they are the same, what does that say about GM?

I am not bitter about bailouts at all......I just think they were a mistake and GM deserved to go out of business. I only wish them the best. If for the only sake that the US taxpayer has a vested interest in it.

Oh and I just read again what you wrote. "The early 80s Gm cars may have been unreliable- I'm too young to know or care but I do know that has little relevance to the recent products I named." MAY HAVE BEEN UNRELIABLE????? God you really dont know what in the hell you are talking about. GMs '80s front wheel drive cars were some of the worst vehicles ever produced...look it up. You really slay me sometimes. Oh I am never caught of guard by your posts....I am often surprised by the immaturity and venom in them however. Oh and make sure you get your picture taken and the next Edmunds event to prove your statements.

@1487,

There you go again sprouing lies about Hyundai's warranty terms. AC is warranted only till 3 years?? Where does it say?? Hyundai warranty covers AC for 5yr/60k miles. Period. The only disclaimer they have on AC is about the Freon recharge, which is a consumable. Nothing more.

You seem to conveniently forget that Hyundai's warranty is DOUBLE that of GM. If you're okay with it, that's fine. But you go about rubbishing Hyundai's long warranty & sprouting lies about it.

You, sire, remind me of that Iraqui foreign minister during the second Gulf War.

Anyway, here's Hyundai's terms: (copied from Hyundai's website)

5 YEAR / 60,000 MILES
NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY Covers nearly every new vehicle component
Covers repair or replacement of any component manufactured or originally installed by Hyundai that is defective in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance.

Following components covered for time and mileage limits indicated:
- Radio And Sound Systems (i.e. radio, cassette tape drive mechanism, and compact disc player): 3 years / 36,000 miles
- Paint: 3 years/ 36,000 miles
- Battery: 3 years / unlimited miles (100% covered 2 years / unlimited miles; after 2 years and within 3 years, 25% cost of battery and 100% labor cost covered)
- Air Conditioner Refrigerant Charge: 1 year / unlimited miles
- Adjustments: 1 year / 12,000 miles
- Wear Items: 1 year / 12,000 miles (e.g. belts, brake pads & linings, clutch linings, filters, wiper blades, bulbs, fuses)

10 YEAR / 100,000 MILES
POWERTRAIN PROTECTION Covers most engine & transaxle components.
Covers repair or replacement of powertrain components (i.e. selected Engine and Transmission/Transaxle components), originally manufactured or installed by Hyundai that are defective in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance. Coverage applies to Original Owner only effective with 2004 Model Year and newer model year vehicles. On 1999-2003 Model Years, coverage applies to Original Owner and immediate family members (i.e. wife, husband, daughter, son, stepdaughter, stepson).

Second and/or subsequent owners have powertrain components coverage under the 5 year / 60,000 mile New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Excludes coverage for vehicles in commercial use (i.e. taxi, route delivery, delivery service, rental, etc.).

7 YEAR / UNLIMITED MILES
ANTI-PERFORATION WARRANTY Covers rust-related corrosion of body sheet metal.
Covers 7 years unlimited miles starting with 2005 Model Year (previously 5 year/100,00 Miles for 2004 and prior model years).

Covers perforation (rust hole through the body panel from inside to outside) corrosion of original Hyundai body sheet metal due to defects in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance.

Excludes surface corrosion
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5 YEAR / UNLIMITED MILES
24-HOUR ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE Covers towing (including accident-related), lock-out, flat tire, and battery failure.
Covers vehicle, regardless if current owner is original or subsequent owner.

Includes the following full roadside amenities:
- Towing for inoperable disablements, including accidents
- Battery jump starts
- Change flat tire
- Lock-out
- Out of gas
- Trip interruption

*DISCLAIMER: Hyundai Motor America reserves the right to limit services or reimbursement to any owner or driver when, in Hyundai Motor America's judgment, the Claims are excessive in nature, frequency or type of occurrence.

Hyundai Roadside Assistance Services are provided through Cross Country Motor Club, Inc., Medford, MA 02155, except in Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon, Wisconsin, and Wyoming, where services are provided through Cross Country Motor Club of California, Inc., Medford, MA 02155.

Hyundai Motor America makes no guarantee or warranty regarding Cross Country Motor Club, Inc.'s or Cross Country Motor Club of California, Inc.'s service and is not liable for the actions of its employees, or subcontractors.

EXCLUSIONS ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE is NOT A WARRANTY. For a description of the warranty covering your Hyundai, see the Hyundai New Vehicle Limited Warranty section of the Owner's Handbook. Roadside Assistance is a limited service, provided to you to help minimize any unforeseen vehicle operation inconvenience.

The Hyundai Roadside Assistance Program does not include reimbursement for any costs/charges for repairs, parts, labor, property loss or any other expense incurred as a result of accident/collision, vehicle abuse, racing, vandalism or other items not covered by the Hyundai New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Also excluded are services for snow tires, repair to studs, mounting or demounting of snow chains, and any fines, fees or taxes associated with impound towing as a result of any actual or alleged violation of any law or regulation.

Off-roading is not covered. To receive service, the vehicle must be accessible from a publicly maintained road.
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12 MONTH / 12,000 MILES
REPLACEMENT PARTS AND ACCESSORY LIMITED WARRANTY
Covers repair or replacement of any Hyundai Genuine Replacement Parts or Accessory supplied by Hyundai that is defective in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance.

Genuine Hyundai Parts or Accessories supplied by Hyundai and purchased from an authorized Hyundai Dealer, but not installed by an authorized Hyundai Dealer, are covered for 12 months / unlimited miles.

Accessories installed on a vehicle at the time of or prior to the vehicle's date of first use, are covered under the 5 year / 60,000 mile New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

Accessories installed after the vehicle's date of first use are covered for 12 months / 12,000 miles.
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8 YEAR / 80,000 MILES
FEDERAL EMISSION AND PERFORMANCE WARRANTY
Covers repair or replacement of the following original Hyundai major emissions control components that cause the vehicle to fail to conform to an applicable EPA approved Inspection/Maintenance Program:

1) Catalytic Converter
2) Engine Control Module
3) Onboard Emissions Diagnostic Device (OBDII)

Other EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) emissions warranty parts are covered under the 5 years / 60,000 mile New Vehicle Limited Warranty.
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7 YEAR / 70,000 MILES
CALIFORNIA EMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM WARRANTY
Applies to vehicles manufactured to California specifications, which are distributed by Hyundai Motor America and registered in the states of California, Vermont, Massachusetts, and Maine.

Covers repair or replacement of specific original Hyundai emissions components (specific covered emissions components vary by model).

California Emissions Control Systems Warranty is in addition to Federal Emissions Defect & Performance Warranty.

Other California Emissions Control Systems Warranty emissions warranty parts are covered under the 5 years / 60,000 mile New Vehicle Limited Warranty.
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THERE ARE NO AMERICANS IN BAGDAD, I AM TELLING YOU! Wobbly you NAILED it! I keep thinking he has his hands over ears yelling LA LA LA LA.

Geez, I'm going to put my two-cents in here about the GM vs. Hyundai debate.

I've owned two Hyundais in the past (both Elantras- a 2000 and 2002) and one GM (a Chevy Aveo). The ownership experience was day-and-night.

The two Elantras were bought when they were each only a year old and the worst of the depreciation had gone by (Hyundai's holding value isn't really their strong point). At the time I was working for Enterprise Rent-A-Car and our fleet was full of GM's. Compared to the Cavaliers, Sunfires, and Saturn SL2's we had on our lot- the Elantras seem so much more well-built, comfortable, and solid. The Cavaliers/Sunfires had dashboard parts that would just pop off with the brush of a finger, fragile side mirror housings, steering knuckles that would wear out and pop/crack into place and an uncomfortable knees-to-the chin driving position. The Elantas in the fleet held up much better and were durable cars- hence why I decided to buy one (or two). Both never gave me any trouble at all and when I replaced both at about 50k miles- felt as solid as the day I bought them. Neither had creaks, rattles, or any worn parts. Except for the buying experience of one- Hyundai's service always good- not glamarous, but they were always polite and efficient when routine maintenance needed to be done.

The Aveo replaced the '02 Elantra and was my first brand new car (I was 22 when I bought it). I was sooooo excited to have the new car smell and piece of mind of new car ownership. Initially the car was good and gave no trouble- but after a year it all went down hill. The car had an oil leak, a tempermental dashboard clock, a loose rear spoiler, and major suspension issues. The leak and clock were fixed- but the suspension was a different story. It was a very noticeable creaking/popping/cracking from both the front and rear suspension. I took it to one Chevy dealer and they said the car was in a wreck and they turned me away (I had owned the car since it had 10 miles and never was in a crash). Infuriated, I went to another dealer and they attempted to fix it, but after three visits they gave up and said I have to live with it. Their exact words were "it's an economy car and we can't invest that much into it." I know it wasn't a luxury car, but it still was a new car, and all I could afford, and it was under warranty.

I ended up taking GM to court with a lemon lawsuit and they settled and had me return the car to them. The local Chevy dealer had the nerve to try to sell me a new Aveo in the service drive when the old was taken away.

Granted, the Aveo was Daewoo engineered and not a good product to begin with. But it is a GM vehicle and needs to be backed up by them. My best friend bought a new S-10 in 2000 and it was nothing but trouble from day one as well and would leave him stranded. He only kept it for a year as GM refused to fix the fuel system, electrical, and trim issues it had. Another friend is continually taking their '06 Malibu to the repair shop for stalling and electrical issues as well.

The point is, for die-hard GM loyalists like 1487, that all companies can make mediocre products and I was willing to forgive GM for that. It happens..... But the treatment that I received, as well as many who own a GM is unforgivable. They never seem to care, and try to either avoid their customers, or cut corners when it comes to service. Because of that, I refuse to buy one ever again.

I've owned three Fords (an Aspire, Escort, and now an '06 Focus) and although they sometimes haven't been the most reliable- Ford dealerships have always treated me nicely, fairly, and have always been helpful. Even though their cars sometimes aren't the most reliable, I'm willing to be loyal to them.

GM really needs to not only improve their products (oh, the Saturn Ion is the dud of the last 10 years IMO- no good qualities at all about that car), but also the reliability and customer service. Otherwise, there's a whole new generation of people in their teens and 20's who will be turned off them forever.