Honda Civic: The Two Extremes

Wow. The 0-60 time of GX is closer to the 1/4 mile time of the Si than its 0-60 time.

Honda makes great cars, but I think that taking an engine that performs like a motorcycle engine and slapping it in a sedan is not what I would call a hot rod. I do not disagree that this is a fine car, but a MS3 has twice the torque and gets about the same mileage for the same price.

I know its been a fan favourite for years, but the Civic Si doesn't really interest me at all. The MS3 is far more appealing.

all that and the MS3's craptastic shift linkage included for free! ;)

(Si owner - EP3)

Scott:
"The Civic Si, which is known for eating American musclecars"

Maybe I am a little slow today.. but help me understand how a car that goes 0-60 in 7 seconds can eat an american muscle car? Hell...or any family sedan with V6. Also, for a car that is so small and light, those braking numbers dont impress me. I'm sure 1487 can validate the numbers, but doesn't a camero stop faster (117 ft), go faster, and have better skid pad results (.90) per your publication?

I've never entered the import vs domestic battlefield in these blogs before.. but had to say something on this one.

@indy_mistert: point taken. Put a Honda shifter on that MS3 and we're in good shape. I still like the MS3's shifter better than most that I have used, though, but maybe I'm crazy or I had a really good one. :)

2002blksle: Well said. The Civic SI will get smoked by anything resembling a muscle car. It loses most, if not all, magazine comparisons to the GTI, MS3, Cobalt SS, Cooper S, etc. Sweet gearbox, check, torque???........

The big wallop of the torque from the MS3 is VERY appealing. But it's ridiculous ever-grinning snout sure isn't. And the snickety-snick rifle bolt shifter of the Honda puts the rubbery unit in the Mazda to shame (unless that has been seriously upgraded for the current model).

The Civic SI is an entertaining and entirely practical driver's car, though it is very long in the tooth compared to most of its competition. Maybe Honda will hit a home run with its eventual replacement, but if recent Honda offerings are any guide, I'm not holding my breath.

The only way Honda can make the Si something to compete (I'm talking engine, not the rest of the package) with the other small hot-hatches, is a turbo. A 250 hp, 125 lbft of torque 4 cylinder is probably the next step. Whoopee!

I think the Si can beat the V6 Mustang (any year), the V6 Challenger (because the Challenger can run over it and not even notice) and any of the old classic muscle cars (because they're 40 years old). However, any modern 'muscle car' should be able to smoke it.

Just ask my brother-in-law (happy owner of a modified Si) how he did against my stock G8 GT. I told him I was out of his league!

I own a 07 FG2 Si, and I wouldn't say it eats musclecars (definitely NOT in a straight line). For $25K, I wouldn't buy my car (got it new for $20K, w00t!). That said, I will say, the shifter and pedal placement are top-notch (drive-by-wire FTL), and the engine has lots of character. HAHA, I know some people prefer numbers over character, and I've never driven a MS3 (which I'm sure is a blast to drive), but something about wringing an engine out to 8K RPM is just so satisfying to me (especially when it feels like it can just keep revving even higher). I liken it to a cheaper, baby version of BMW's M-division engines. There's probably a lot of people thinking "blasphemy" right now (hey, I'm not hater or fanboy...I'm a fan of any kind of go-fast engineering). Anyone else think so?

bring back the Prelude and be done with it.

Bring back the Prelude? How about the RSX instead?

have always wondered if honda will give up on the turbo 4 they put in the acura rdx... it sure seems like that's going to be its only application.

is shawn church out there? how is that engine's potential? as memory serves me, he tuned at least one of em.

ditto the gearbox on the si being stellar. along with the s2000, probably some of the best manual transmissions ever, though i've never driven a porsche.

+1 more for not believing that the Si is a muscle car eater. +1 on the MS3 being a better car for the money. I was super close to buying a MS3 and I never even considered the Si. I like the MS3's midrange power, which is more useful in daily driving. I have an M3 if I want to wring out an engine, and honestly, I prefer some low end torque over high RPM HP.

The Si is a fine car, but the interior design bothers me. The look of the center stack just doesn't look like it would come from a sports car. Yes it's black, but that's only part of the requirements. The design looks like it's from an economy car (which the Civic is). My opinion is that sport's cars shouldn't look like economy cars.

gongal, I pretty much agree with you. I own an Si as well. Its just a fun car to drive. Other cars are fun too, sure, but so is the Si. And I got a great deal on mine as well. Almost 19K if you count the positive equity from my trade in. At that price, the Si is definitely a great car.

The K23 in the RDX is pretty good. Hate the top mount intercooler (heat soak), but with just a full 3" exhaust and reflash we were picking up 40+ hp and 40+ lbs-ft of torque on California 91 octane. The turbo is too small for much more than that though. Talking to the original design engineering lead for the car, the intent was a bigger turbo, but then the project got moved to Japan and they decided they wanted a smaller turbo to reduce the turbo "feel" of the car.

I'm surprised that the Si sedans return such low trap speeds in the 1/4 though. We were seeing 95+ mph on the early coupes in 05/06 and guys with intakes were trapping 98-99 mph. Then again, Honda's high revving motors are very elevation sensitive since the VEs are so high, so Fontana probably sucks out some power. OTOH, we tested a tuned model there with Sport Compact Car years ago that was making about 35 whp more than stock and it went 102 mph in the 1/4.

On the MS3, its a very quick car. Mazda's DI engine is a bit of a conundrum though. Some of them like to knock like crazy, even bone stock, and it can be very hard to tune that knock out even pulling timing. Others run like champs. Maybe fuel pump issues are in play. Oh, and on gas mileage, SIs have no problem returning 35+ mpg on long freeway trips, I don't think I've ever seen a MS3 get close, but I wouldn't expect it to either with the more powerful engine.

I'll take a tuned GTI any day of the week. Manual gearbox isn't the best, but I am in love with the 2.0TFSI engine. Stock brakes aren't up to snuff either.

35 mpg? What kind of RPM is that from the little 4-banger? If that is true, I'm impressed. I didn't think it had the gearing to pull that off.

"Basically there's a Civic for everybody and everything."???

I don't see that at all! Where is the hatchback? Where is the convertible? How about a station wagon?? A diesel version, anyone? Oh, and how about an AWD version?

The Civic line-up is by no means complete! If you want a complete line-up, look at the BMW 3. I am obviously not considering the two to be in the same market. Nevertheless, even with a much lower sales volume, BMW manages to offer all of the above.

@audisport: the 2.0T is a sweet engine indeed. My coworker a '08 GTI. Fun fun car with nice interior/exterior styling, but could use an improvement in the shifter and brake feel just like you said.

@daddiod: HATCHBACKS FTW! I actually do like the sedan a bit more than the coupe. Performance-wise, it's the same, but the added convenience would have been nice (the non-functional wing in the back makes the exterior styling of the sedan just right, too. Don't really like the sedan without it).

::Sigh:: why don't we get the JDM Type-R? Does it not pass emissions or do they just like hogging all the juicy goodness for themselves?

SI eats American muscle cars? With 7 seconds 0-60 and 15.3 second quarter mile? My 1970 Olds Cutlass Supreme sedan, with vinyl top, 2 brl 350 and 3 speed automatic completely stock would kick the crap out of that, and I wouldn't dare call my Olds a true muscle car. I think we have undeniable proof the Edmunds editors really are import fanboys, Honda kool-aid drinkers. Wow.

2002blksle: Well said. The Civic SI will get smoked by anything resembling a muscle car. It loses most, if not all, magazine comparisons to the GTI, MS3, Cobalt SS, Cooper S, etc. Sweet gearbox, check, torque???........

excuse me? what magazines are you quoting? i'll have you know that the GTI is a slow POS. first of all, consider this. 200BHP from a turbo engine. the Si makes 200BHP from a NA engine ok? NA!!!! and second of all, the Si weighs less. it's faster than the GTI in the straight line ok? last time i checked, the GTI didn't have a LSD (latest model might). without a LSD, the GTI can't keep up at all on a mountain road.

and did you notice? all those cars you listed, are boosted! if the Si is boosted, it'd be a different story.

the Si has one of the best NA engines in the world. 200-210BHP from a 2.0L engine. that's 100HP/L for around 20K. find me another engine that can do that.

I own a 07 FG2 Si, and I wouldn't say it eats musclecars (definitely NOT in a straight line). For $25K, I wouldn't buy my car (got it new for $20K, w00t!). That said, I will say, the shifter and pedal placement are top-notch (drive-by-wire FTL), and the engine has lots of character. HAHA, I know some people prefer numbers over character, and I've never driven a MS3 (which I'm sure is a blast to drive), but something about wringing an engine out to 8K RPM is just so satisfying to me (especially when it feels like it can just keep revving even higher). I liken it to a cheaper, baby version of BMW's M-division engines. There's probably a lot of people thinking "blasphemy" right now (hey, I'm not hater or fanboy...I'm a fan of any kind of go-fast engineering). Anyone else think so?

gongal, i agree with you completely. we won't beat the muscle cars in a straight line, but we'll keep up with them, if not beat them in a corner. i used to autox a bit, and i had much faster times than the new Challenger. i haven't driven a MS3 either, but i do acknowledge that it's a good car. i wouldn't mind one. i love revving to 8K just like you, and with proper mods, the Si's engine can rev higher. i completely agree with you that it's like a baby M engine. i've driven Ms before and have many friends with Ms. our engine isn't as effective, but it's quite similar :P

Sure, the Honda Civic is a versatile car. But I don't think it does very well in each catagory.

In terms of fuel economy, the Civic Hybrid loses to the Prius and the VW Jetta TDI.

In speed, the Civic Si gets beaten by the VW GTI, Mazda Speed3, Cobalt SS, Camaro V6...the list goes on.

In price/practicality, the base Civic gets pummled by it's litter brother, the Honda Fit and the Suzuki SX4.

With so many options in this price range, I can't find a solid reason to buy this car over a competitor, even one from the same brand.

The Civic Si handles very well, beating out the GTI, and Camaro.

In terms of speed... Go buy yourself a Mustang if that's all you care about. Stock for stock, a GTI will lose to a Si on a road/track with turns. A Camaro would probably lose as well

Anyone can stomp a go fast pedal. Look at the trap speed on the slalom...

No the Si will not eat modern american muscle cars but a good driver can keep up with someone who takes it lightly and drives an automatic.

I think I answered the reasons I bought an Si in the last Si article. It's fun and dynamically a great performer. The costs are low enough that I kept my S2000 as my weekend car.

Just out of curiosity, how many of the commentators have driven all of the cars compared? I have - except for the G8. And those complaining about any of the cars, what do have in your parking lot right now?

I did however rent the Holden Commodore V6 when I was in Melbourne.

the Si beat out the new Challenger at AutoX =) i did the same against a modded GTI

I looked at the Si and the GTI before I bought my MS3. The GTI was my first choice but it was disqualified due to the abysmal sales/service practices of the local VW dealers. The Si was slick, but all the all the dealers loaded them up with "accessories" that were overpriced, or I didn't want, or both. The MS3 is OK, but nothing to brag about. I think all three cars are decent, it just depends on your preferences and priorities.

I hate dealers that add accessories that you don't want, especially since those accessories are all marked up! If the MS3 were out when I was shopping for my Si, it would've been a very tough decision..

dragonzsoul,

Your comment about the Si keeping up with other cars raises a valid point. There is a much bigger disparity in driving ability as opposed to vehicle capability. At every HPDE I attend I invariably see a several "fast" cars being forced to give a point-by to a "slow" car. As a matter of fact, at my last school I had a student in an Si sedan who was really good. He shamed several drivers in "faster" cars. Sweet car, too!

6th is pretty tall in the Si (for a 4cyl Honda that is). About 3000-3100 rpm at 75 mph. We once did a trip to Willow Springs and back with an EX Coupe 5MT and an Si with a couple of mods. The Si actually matched the EX on the downhill run back to LA and was within 5% on the way up. If you just cruise, the K20 is very, very efficient.

"The Si actually matched the EX on the downhill run back to LA and was within 5% on the way up. If you just cruise, the K20 is very, very efficient."

Shawn, unfortunately a large portion of posters here tend to think EPA ratings are from God and are rarely beaten, espcially if the claims are coming from a Honda owner. What they fail to realize is elevation, weather, driving style and many other factors play a significant role in fuel economy.

I know several Si owners (mostly sedans) who have stated they had experienced good milage overall and great milage (32-36mpg) on the highway while cruising.

"I have always wondered if honda will give up on the turbo 4 they put in the acura rdx... it sure seems like that's going to be its only application."

Indy_Mistert, although the K23T (RDX engine) sounds like a logical upgrade to the Si's K20 it doesnt offer that typical hummingbird playfulness the K20 or high performing Honda's are known for. Installing that engine would dilute and ruin the Si's unique character.

Honda could change a few small things with the existing K20 (inake/exhaust/ECU tune), or just install the EXCELLENT K20 from the JDM Civic R to make it more competitive in terms of acceleration. I think 225-230hp and 155-162ftlbs would be more than adequate. Yes, those numbers are still substantially lower the Civic's boosted competition however Honda performance cars have never been about brute power or being the fastest in a straight line. Honda relies more on chassis finess and overall cornering speeds (entry/exit) to remain competitive.

I've read many times that the Civic R's K20 offers much more power and TORQUE all over the rev range and has much better torque production characteristics vs the screaming Honda F-series (S2000). The F and the Civic R's K20 make similar peak torque but the torque curve in the Civic R is much much thicker and is more accessible regardless of engine speed.

The Civic Si is a "fun little coupe." It's no hot rod. There is no such thing as a Civic hot rod.

@stingray454: http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2007/06/civette-honda-civic-with-corvette-ls1.html