2009 Mini E: Quite the Draw

Must be a 15 AMP Breaker box - time to upgrade! =)

Seriously, though, could you guys put a meter to the Mini-E during household charging to see what it is drawing? I think many of us might be interested...

Wonder how your CA "rolling blackouts" would be if even a small fraction of the population was using plug-ins.

Bad idea to leave an extension cord coiled up - especially if there's a decent draw on the circuit.

And now we know the ugly secret of who killed the electric car.

It wasn't some conspiracy led by the oil companies.

It wasn't a neocon cabal led by Dick Cheney.

It wasn't Bob Lutz.

It was everyone who buys a car and would prefer to be able to drive long distances without a recharge/refill, and when those recharges/refills are necessary, to have it complete within 10 minutes.

Fossil fuels - especially petrochemicals - pack a lot of energy into a small, easily transportable package, and we should be grateful that we have them so cheaply. (And considering their utility, even $10.00/gallon gasoline should be considered 'cheap'.)

Don't get me wrong - I do think that the future belongs to plastic cars with electric motors, if only because of peak oil and the problems inherent in buying oil from a bunch of third-world fools and theocratic nutjobs (we don't even have to reach for the environmental issues.) But it isn't going to be a good one for transportation, and unless these range/recharging issues can be overcome, the era of easy, inexpensive, and long-range individual transportation may end with it.

Did it just blow one breaker on the panel or did it blow the main breaker for the whole house?

If it just blew a single breaker that's not surprising. Most wall outlets are only on 15 amps and are often sharing one breaker with some other outlets in the house. My electric lawn mower used to do the same thing if my wife pluged in the vaccum donwstairs. The MiniE will require the owners to have some understanding of how his house wiring works.

If the main breaker for the whole house blew then you friend should have it looked at. You shouldn't be drawing that close to the limit of the main panel.

I'm chalking this one up to you guys running an xbox360, a flatscreen, a stereo, and a CAR on the same breaker.

Give the Mini-E its own dedicated 15A circuit and you won't have that problem again.

You obviously had plenty of extension cord; make better use of it next time. I am curious though how useful the car is in these types of situations. You drive to your friends, hang out for a couple hours while it charges - does it charge enough to remain useful for the next leg of your journey?

Try again!

You shouldn't plug the MiniE's cord into another extension cord either. The more cords you use, the more voltage drop you get and the more amps you will draw at the breaker.

That's a bummer. I think the future of the electric car is not so much in pure electricity but with gas/diesel-electric hybrids. Like the current Prius and the upcoming Chevy Volt, we will begin to see hybrids that can go longer distances on pure electric power.

I like how you sneakily filled up on Mark's dime.

Compare this situation to its gas powered car analogy - guess, what, there is no such analogy. There's no such thing as a gasoline pump for every home. The electic car opens up this new possibility. I think it's pretty cool. So is not rely upon unstable oil suppliers, opening up new, renewable energy sources for transportation, big fat torque bands for right at idle to highway speeds, silent running, etc.

There will be growing pains, but electric cars will improve if the manufacturers can stick with it. This requires some vision here, and some of it needs to be on the part of we consumers. The first mass produced infernal combustion cars were far, far worse than this. The electric car range will improve, the charging time will decrease, the batteries will get lighter, and we'll all become savy to the varies idiocyncracies just as we have with the cars we own now. For example, a dedicated 220 line in the garage like the one I already have for my air compressor would work great for recharging an electric car.

I say the real reason was Magrath's gaming skills are simply so awesome that he blew the power in the whole house - perhaps even the whole block.

"Fossil fuels - especially petrochemicals - pack a lot of energy into a small, easily transportable package, and we should be grateful that we have them so cheaply. (And considering their utility, even $10.00/gallon gasoline should be considered 'cheap'.)"

I absolutely agree. A letter to the editor of Car and Driver about a year ago (during the time of $4 gas) made the simple statement: "Spending $4 to transport 4,000+ pounds of steel and human 25 to 30 miles is really a good deal." Fossil fuels are fantastic as a means of storing, transporting, and accessing energy. Yes, they have their downsides in terms of supply, renewal, and environmental impacts, but to get any other energy source working quite so well will take a long, long time. It took us well over 100 years to get the internal combustion engine as efficient as it is today, but we do have a lot to show for it, as we mentioned. Other forms of propulsion and energy sources have their advantages as well, but we won't see those unless we start developing them now and keep refining them. Hopefully this can be fully market driven, as gas supplies become tighter, gas prices go up, and the incentive for alternatives likewise increases. In time we'll get there, but for now, gasoline isn't nearly as bad as we make it out to be.

I wouldn't be surprised if the manual for this car states that you shouldn't use such a long extension cord when charging for just this reason.

And sorry for the many typos in the previous post - my head is a bit foggy with the swine flu. I hope you don't all catch it from reading my posts.

Get a Kill-A-Watt to check usage and cost, etc.

http://tinyurl.com/6djngr

So I guess Plug-In Cars aren't quite there yet.

Lots of discussion about the cost efficiency of gas relative to other sources - here's some quick math:

Assume 25 miles/gallon and $2.50/gallon. That makes 10 cents per mile for a typical ride. We can lower this to around 6.2 cents per mile if we drive a car that gets 40 miles per gallon.

The tesla roadster claims to get 4.61 miles per kWh. Current costs of a kWh is around 8 cents. That makes it around 1.7 cents per mile to operate the Tesla. That's more than 8 times better than the "typical ride" above, more than 3 times better than the really efficient ride. Of course, YMMV.

Yes the tesla costs $100k, but that will come down big time if the technology is adopted and developed further, as will the 1.7 cents per mile figure.

Oops, meant 5 times better for Tesla vs typical gas car.

To make the math a bit more relevant to the case at hand:

I just found the efficiency rating for the electric Mini - it averages around .35 kWh/mi. That puts it at around (assuming 8 cents per kWh) 2.8 cents per mile. Still more than twice as good as a base Mini (which it can out accelerate, BTW).

@someguy

You're right about the 'growing pains' the problem is that until those are overcome, and assuming that oil remains in plentiful enough supply for us to keep using in quantity, it is hard to make the case for the all-electric car.

Personally, I'll be happy with diesel if I want a fuel-efficient car. I really hope BMW brings the 4-cyl turbodiesel engine from the 123d over here soon. In 10-20 years, hopefully electric cars will be at a point where they will be comparable in convenience to regular internal combustion engine cars today.

Magrath - Let me get this straight: you've got 4 guys sitting around drinking "refreshments", eating steaks, and doing automotive things.

You produce sufficient draw to trip a breaker. Your group solution is to ignore the problem and hope the car gets you there?

WHAT THE HELL MAN? You have abdicated your manly responsibilities to come up with a completely asinine, overly-complex solution to this problem. Or at least try to fix it.

#1: Was only one breaker tripped, or was the entire house main breaker tripped?

#2 Does Mark have a 100 amp or 200 amp box? (I know some of those homes are a little older, so I assume they might still have 100 amp)

#3 If only one breaker tripped, and it wasn't the main breaker, you can safely assume you have all of those products drawing through a single 15 or 20 amp breaker. Did you switch the MINI-E to a new outlet on a different breaker?

#4 Why are you using 2 seperate extension cords?

#5 Perhaps, most importantly of all, do you know if it's possible to re-charge the MINI-E by plugging a beefy DC to AC converter into another car's power point and, while the car/truck is running, plug into the MINI-E and start charging it? Cause that'd be freaking cool.

Since you guys like to throw money around, check this out: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2604113&CatId=237

Buy that, plug it into a truck or similar with big-honking-battery, and see if you can charge the MINI-E with it.

Just remember the golden rules:

1. There is no problem that a bigger power tool of some sort can not solve.

2. There is no solution too complex.

Make this up to me man. You owe it to your readers.

Joe

How did you guys get the C6R is forza 2? I thought it only had the C5R. Is it an update or something?

@jkp1187

It's just a matter of time. There's one and only one hurdle - batteries - and its an engineering problem not a scientific one, meaning that no major leap is required, only refinement of existing technologies.

Once the range is close, and the purchase price is close, the electric car will make too much sense because of the considerably lower cost per mile to fuel it for those republicans out there (especially when you realize gas will not stay as cheap as it is now), plus the lower emissions, more stable fuel suppliers, easier integration of alternative energy sources, etc,, that the rest of us actually do care about. (sorry, couldn't resist)

themadagent: The C6R can be found in Arcade mode / time trials. It's the only car available to set a time at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca (I should get a dollar everytime I correctly name that track, BTW).

everyone else: The Mini tripped the main breaker. In its defense, my home theater can dim my entire neighborhood's lights (uninterruptible power supplies, power cleaners, DVR, Plasma (not LCD), big amps, receivers, subwoofers, blah blah blah). We observed the utility meter spinning pretty fast without the car charging. When plugged-in, it started spinning like a sawblade! OK, maybe not that fast, but pretty darned fast.

joefrompa: It would've been pretty funny to charge the MiniE with my 1957 tailfinned road locomotive (no catalytic converter and 10mpg when rolling downhill). I also suggested driving around town with a big Honda generator strapped to the roof.

Takahashi - The inverter question is actually somewhat serious.

If an electric vehicle can receive some charge from a beefy inverter hooked up to another car, then it at least has an option if it runs out of juice 20 miles from the nearest plug.

Similarly, is there a portable generator that could be stuck in the trunk (or backseat, lol) for such duties. For instance: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100637533

How far could one tank of fuel in such a generator charge the Mini-E?

Hey, if electric cars are going to go mainstream (and it seems like they aren't quite there yet), then this stuff is going to need to be known. You could be at the forefront :)

Joe

P.s. If you are too afraid of playing with electricity, just send the plane tickets to me and I'll buy the tools :)

re: on-board generator for an electric car:

That concept is already in pre-production, due out supposedly in late 2010. Its called the Chevy Volt.

Mark, what kind of circuit is your entertainment center? 20 amp? Two 20 amp circuits? That's 40 amps. Btw, unless your stereo amps are class A, they shouldn't be drawing all that much power.

What's your main circuit? 100 amps, 200amps, more? The draw from your entertainment center and a 20amp draw to the Mini shouldn't be able to blow that.

Something else went wrong.

If he was running a plasma tv, x box 360, and stereo system off a single 20 amp breaker tripped, I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm guessing, without confirming, that the MINI is a 15 amp draw.

I think Mark rigged it to blow. He didn't want to pay that nasty power bill. Mike, that's what you get for leeching off of Mark.

I think I speak for everyone when I say... We need more numbers and details.

We can *blame* big government for a lot of things, and credit them for very few.

If electric cars should some day become more practical, where enough of a charge could be stored in a battery comparable to a tank of gasoline (and right now, that's a big if), where will all that electricity come from? How will it be produced?

Most of our electricity comes from coal, oil, natural gas, and nuclear. Only a small percentage comes from solar and wind. And the problem with solar and wind power is that they're unreliable, so they need a backup means of power generation, i.e., conventional sources as above.

Electric cars aren't the panacea they're made out to be. They would just shift the demand for oil and coal from one use to another.

Just saying...

Folks - MINI E pulls 12amps at min. There is also a setting in the computer that one can adjust (12 / 32 / 50amps). MINI USA says no to extension chords and they are right....I drive a MINI E (I have #402) and one of my co-workers plugged his MINI E into an extension chord and also blew a circuit somewhere in his house.

The 110 cable is designed to trip if there is a bigger load on the line that it can handle and not effect ones home....seems like extension chords mess it up in a big way.

Good luck guys

"Most of our electricity comes from coal, oil, natural gas, and nuclear. "

You forgot hydro. I don't know about the US but the majority of electricity in Canada comes from hydro and judging by some of the dams I've seen in the states, a good chunk of yours must too.

Firstwagen - Hydro isn't as big in the US, accounting for "only" about 7% of our total production, although it still (no pun intended) eclipses Solar and Wind production.

someguyposting - You extoll the benefits of an electric car, but then forget where you are getting the electricity from. You cannot disregard the lifecycle pollution of a vehicle when trying to argue environmental impact - everything from production of the vehicle (including the battery pack), to its source of power, to its eventual demolition must be considered in order to argue a valid point.

Regardless, a lot of people forget that while Nuclear produces "only" 20% of power in the US, it does it with only 104 TOTAL plants - some quick math using DOE figures puts the specific output PER plant at 5 times more than anything else we are currently using to produce power. You might not like Nuclear, but it's hard to argue its efficiency.

tryan - don't worry, I haven't forgotten about where the electricity comes from. Not one bit. No one but the opposition claims that electric cars are a magic fix - just a step in the right direction. The overall pollutants per mile driven, even given the current blend of sources for electricity in the US, is lower for the electric car than for the gas powered car. And if you are going to consider the entire lifecycle, do it for the gas powered car too - every try dispose of something that contained petroleum products? They are considered an environmental hazard, much like old batteries. You should also consider the envronmental impact of oil refineries and transportation for the gas car too, just to put it on equal footing.

The gap will only widen from where it is today as the electric car is made better (remember that relative to infernal combustion powered cars, it's in its infancy) and alternative energy solutions are adopted at the power plant level (many can only be done at the power plant level). You bring up a good example of this last point (thanks, btw) - have you ever seen a proposal for a nuclear powered car? (or hydro or wind powerd cars for that matter). Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future doesn't count.

someguy - The electric car has been around for well over a century, actually much longer than gasoline powered cars. In fact, I believe up until the 1920's electric cars made up the majority of motor vehicles sold. In its infancy? I'm not so sure...

As for a proposal for a nuclear car, there was actually one, and it was from Ford - aptly named the Nucleon. Of course, it was never built.

"electric car has been around for well over a century, actually much longer than gasoline powered cars. In fact, I believe up until the 1920's electric cars made up the majority of motor vehicles sold."

The problem is, it was pretty much dropped because the key enablers allowing it to compete weren't available - until now. So the modern incarnation is just starting up.

"As for a proposal for a nuclear car, there was actually one, and it was from Ford - aptly named the Nucleon. Of course, it was never built."

Exactly my point - of course it was never built. Its the wrong insertion point fot that technology, as would putting a wind mill on a car, or a hydro-electric plant.

The envronmental arguements won't win the day in the US anyway. Americans are glutinous in the extreme. We'd eat the roofs over our homes if we thought it would taste good. The argument needs to be finincial for folks to listen. It will be - I've already pointed out how electricity is cheaper per mile driven than gas, the rest is refinements to batteries which are starting to happen right now. Speaking of financial arguments, there's plenty of money to be made by those with vision.

First problem, and it's a big problem.
never plug an extension cord into an extension cord!

But it does prove that we need to educate not just on the electric car but also basic electric watts/amps/volts stuff as we go into the electric car world.

Jeez.

2300 trouble free miles on Mini-E #183 in just over a month, every day driver driving on sunshine :)

Cheers
Peder