2008 Cadillac CTS V6 DI: Parting Shots

Yes, how dare they state their opinions!

crowb:

Here is the thing either all the people (here and at other publications) who have praised car are delusionsal or secretly driving a BMW or the people who are hating were biased from the start. You chose which one seems more biased. I mean they are all talking about the SAME car. I can even understand some saying its a good car but they wouldnt buy it but when you have folks calling an acclaimed vehicle totally half assed and light years short of a Hyundai you have to wonder if they arent just a bit biased.

What do they gain from being biased towards Hyundai 1487?

Ugh, bias is part of a subjective appraisal of a car. They're not robots. This isn't objective. Critics will never be objective.

I don't know man. No offense or anything, because I kind of mess with you sometimes, but these guys just have opinions. And they don't always agree with those of their readers or other media outlets. Some of the cars on here I'm a big fan of and some I hate. And the editors don't always mirror my views. But when they feel differently than I do, even when they fly in the face of the general automotive media, I don't assume they are biased. I assume they have opinions.

Part of their job on this particular blog is to state what they feel. Its supposed to be raw and first hand. It doesn't mean they have a secret agenda. They aren't acolytes in a cabal of Honda/BMW worshippers. They're just telling you what they think.

I know you're a fan of GM. I like a lot of their products too. The CTS included. But maybe just pull back from the "Edmund's is biased against GM" stuff...

Again, no offense intended.

Still fascinates me that you guys had this car for a year and a half yet never tried to have the squeaks and rattles fixed. The CTS's I've driven (several) have been as tight as a drum.

I also concur that there are odd complaints leveled against the CTS that haven't been leveled against other cars... which car has ever used real chrome on the interior? Sorry, it's all "plasti-chrome" and the CTS's is better than most. Someone else already mentioned the ever-present Infiniti analog clock, so I will simply concur.

I'm also not clear what cars in this class the reviewers think have better interiors. Certainly nothing I've driven from Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, etc., though the Volvo S80 and Jag XF are stunning.

I feel like the inside line guys do a good job of presenting their opinions without being overwhelmingly biased. If one wants to see overwhelmingly biased look no further than the love affair of the Car and Driver staffers with BMW.

The Genesis puts EVERY mid-large size luxury car to shame, not just the CTS. The loop hole to this fact is that the Genesis doesn't claim to be a "sports" sedan therefor BMWs are deemed safe from its sights. You cannot tell me that the Genesis is not better than the 3/5 series for 90% of the potential buyers in the price range. However, magazine editors and tunnel-vision "enthusiasts" will pretend that the majority of BMW drivers own the cars because of some inherent driving qualities that can only be appreciated at super legal speeds here in America.

It seems to me that the CTS is every bit as good as the XF, GS, E350 or 528/535 in every area except raw acceleration. The CTS is MUCH LARGER AND HEAVIER than the 3 series yet some people still can't process this simple matter of fact and expect this car to defy physics and dance like a 335 sport in the twisties. Ain't gonna happen. The CTS is a mid sized porker that features above average handling- adjust your expectations and I think you'd like the car better.

Crowb:

I dont get offended. Here's the point as concisely as I can put it: whats the point of trying to field a competitive car if you have people reviewing those cars that are so biased and so jaded that they will never give your model any credit. I understand that everyone on the internet has an "opinion" but you expect reasoned, thoughtful opinions from editors on a major site like this one. This isn't some fly by night blog run by a guy who based his opinion on dealership test drives. If you have been around long enough (apparently you have not) you would know that these LT tests tend not to reveal any changes of opinions. In other words if they think a car is great from day one their wrap up will back that up and no one learned anything about said vehicle that would change their mind. If the car comes in as an underdog you get "just as I thought this is another half ass effort from brand X". Typically brand X is a GM, Ford or Chrysler brand. You really think the negative opinions above would be EXACTLY the same if the CTS was a BMW or Audi? Don't be so naive. I just find it curious that other publications didn't have all the complaints about the pedals, cheap interior, rattles, poor seating position, etc.

esoterica hit the nail on the head. Its all about double standards. Is the CTS the only car to have a rattle? No, but its the only car in which said rattles are reason to not buy the car- even though no evidence exists that it wasn't an isolated problem. Is the CTS' interior worse than other cars in the $32k-$45k range? No, but the CTS' interior is heavily criticized for being lacking. Compared to what? The CTS has unique standout styling that tries not to mock German car styling (unlike the Japanese) and it gets criticized for being too bold and garish. In fact, not endorsing a long term car based on styling is just ridiculous. Obviously anyone considering the car would not have an issue with the styling so its pointless to even comment on the styling at the conclusion of these LT tests. How can people who like the Evolution, Accord and Fit criticize the CTS for being unsightly?

Typical 1487 rant. If someone doesn't like something about a domestic car, it must be "bias". If they like an import - same whine - "bias"! Pot... kettle... black?

I'm confused - so 1487 would prefer the editors lie about their opinions of a car in order to avoid criticizing anything GM/American?

If you're so convinced that their inherent bias prevents them from accurately evaluating a car, why do you waste your time reading their reviews?

Personally, I would interpret the collective group as saying that it's a very good car that is only a few problem areas away from being an excellent car.

But, I'm sure you'll accuse me of bias as well.

1487: I counted five of the staff who were for the CTS. Five who were somewhat neutral, and three who were against. I'm not sure why you are ranting because that seems pretty unbiased.

I'm a fan of the parting shots sections. Its a good example of how every car will elicit a range of emotions/opinions from those who experienced it.

I think in the case of the CTS, its apparent that the positives are greater then the negatives. Its unfortunate (but completely expected) that there are going to be keyboard-warriors still complaining. If the editors all agreed that the CTS was 'the best vehicle on the road except a Maybach', these people would complain that there is a huge bias and Edmunds is in bed with Maybach.

I'm sure you get my point: If you want to feel like the world is against you, thats what you're going to see in whatever you read.

I think its more reasonable to look at the positives. I like the CTS and I'm glad to hear it getting a positive review. There are things that concern me (chrome-y interior, potential for rattles) but ultimately this seems like a good set of parting shots.

"Typical 1487 rant. If someone doesn't like something about a domestic car, it must be "bias". If they like an import - same whine - "bias"! Pot... kettle... black?"

Not really. You would have to have the ability to actually recognize that the CTS has been heavily praised and received numerous awards to get my point. I don't have a problem with positive comments about good cars- import or domestic. The problems arise when cars are held to different standards based on the manufacturer. Which is what you find here quite often. I'll wait for you to lay out some concrete examples of my unrelenting bias against any and all imports.

"I'm confused - so 1487 would prefer the editors lie about their opinions of a car in order to avoid criticizing anything GM/American?

If you're so convinced that their inherent bias prevents them from accurately evaluating a car, why do you waste your time reading their reviews?"

You reveal you ignorance by assuming that ANY complaint about a domestic car MUST be credible because of the car's origin. Don't shoot the messenger- I've never published a review of the CTS and am merely stating that this car has been generally loved by all that have reviewed it. Just pointing out that some of these harsh criticisms are totally at odds with what other publications (and a few editors here) have said about the car.

I read NEW information as long as its free. My consumption does not indicate an endorsement of the opinions or the validity of the reviews.

1487:

The long-term test is to duplicate real-world experience with the car. This includes any bias that a consumer might bring with them to the dealership and ownership experience. Hyundai is the perfect example: still thought of as the cheap, disposable transportation with spotty reliability from the 80s, they have a major perception hurdle to overcome with every sale of their product. They have to work 10x harder to satisfy a customer than a company like Cadillac which has a mostly-positive, established brand perception. It's a tough sell with the Genesis for a lot of people, yet it's a great product that is pleasantly surprising everyone. I bet every critic went into a test with the Genesis expecting to write about a quality, but otherwise forgettable and unexciting product only to find themselves warning Lexus to watch it's back. Talk about surprise. That's a true success story.

Cadillac has the advantage of a favorable brand perception which sets certain expectations of it's products and the products aren't living up to expectations. So who do you blame? The manufacturer or the critic? It's easier to blame the critic. And thus, the ultimate failure of GM. Let's hope the new GM recognizes this and resolves it immediately.

"I'm not sure why you are ranting because that seems pretty unbiased."

Let me help you:

"After driving the CTS back-to-back with our Hyundai Genesis for our Luxury Sedan Showdown (http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/2009/03/luxury-sedan-showdown-2008-cadillac-cts-di-v6-vs-2009-hyundai-genesis-v6.html), I realized Cadillac was reliant almost solely on its reputation and market perception. They're years away from becoming competitive based on quality."

MT COTY and 2 time 10BEST winner is "years away" from being competitive with Hyundai? Seriously? One of the highest scoring American cars ever in CR is years away from being competitive? Come one man. Do some independent thinking.

I just looked at the comments: 9 were lukewarm to outright negative. 5 were somewhat were positive.

waynester:

Not sure where you got the idea that cadillac has a great brand rep. Until recently Cadillac had a great rep amongst people over 60 only. Their credibility for those in the 30-50 range is relatively new and fragile. YOu are missing my point: everyone else has said the CTS is a great step forward for Cadillac in terms of dynamics, interior quality and technology. Again, don't think I am personally saying this stuff- I am telling you what the auto media has said. While the Genesis is more of a departure from past Hyundais than the CTS is from past Cadillacs both cars represent terrific efforts. The fact that the Genesis is a competent luxury car doesn't take anything away from the CTS. I've been in both cars and I did not find the Genesis to be in another leaguy by any stretch of the imagination. Both are nice inside but the CTS has a more up to date look in terms of the center stack and gauges.

"Personally, I would interpret the collective group as saying that it's a very good car that is only a few problem areas away from being an excellent car. "

Really? saying a car is years away from being competitive with a Hyundai like a ringing endorsement to you? Not to me.

Amusing. I wonder if 1487 flies off like this when he goes with a group to a 5 star restaurant and 3 people like it, 1 is indifferent and 1 says it was junk? Must everyone agree with his point of view or the point of view of the majority?

Awards, praise, sales do not = 100% of the population will like something.

1487, dude chill out. This is a car blog, don't take it so seriously. I can feel your blood pressure getting higher.

The way I read the comments:

5 positive, 5 negative, 2 abstentions and 2 that commented solely on looks and so they don't really count.

1487: ranking the comments as "lukewarm to negative" and "somewhat positive" is so misleading. When you does this, you automatically makes the opinions look worse then they are because you're forcing anyone with an intermediate view into the "negative" category. Its spin doctoring. Also, I guess in your mind someone saying they would buy the vehicle is only "somewhat positive"? I'm not really sure what more you want from people.

EVERYONE (the trade and consumers) have nothing but GOOD things to say about this car...everyone loves it except a few of your staff....in a nutshell, their wrong.

I don't think these guys are any more biased against GM than they are against Nissan/Infiniti. Hell it doesn't seem like there is one LT blog that has any praise for the 370Z or FX50....

1487's Elementary School Report Card (every semester):
"Does not play well with others."

Seriously man, maybe you could consider that perhaps, just perhaps, people with opinions different from yours aren't necessarily stupid or evil. You gotta relax.

"Just pointing out that some of these harsh criticisms are totally at odds with what other publications (and a few editors here) have said about the car."

Who cares what other publications say? Do the editors have to read every one and the other editors' comments first then ensure theirs fall in line with a consensus? Isn't that institutional bias? Hell I've spent some time in a CTS-V and agree with majority of the editor's comments here. Except Mr. Moody, but his priorities are obviously very different than mine and that's fine! I read a variety of opinions, then form my own based on what's important to me.

The only thing that disappoints me is that they never tried to address the rattling. As others have said, that isn't a widespread problem with this car. Besides the rattles, the only real complaints were peddle placement and electronic glitches, and those have been present in other LT cars without too much negative feedback.

Seat comfort is subjective based on body type, so those opinions can vary, and I think most people are in agreement that the interior is very tastefully done, and the plasti-chrome and analog clock are no different than what you might find in any other car in this price range.

I didn't say Cadillac had a great brand rep. I said they have an established, mostly-positive brand perception. Brand perception is different than product quality reputation. Marketing vs. engineering.

If you ask someone from any generation to name a domestic luxury brand from now or any time in history, the majority would say Cadillac without hesitation. If you asked someone to rate Cadillac against more mainstream domestic brands (Chevy, Ford, Buick) in terms of ownership aspirations and perceived quality, I'm betting Cadillac would be at the top for most people. If you asked someone to purchase a domestic "top-quality" brand (brand, not product) you can safely bet that Cadillac makes it on a short list.

Now if you were asking people to rate domestic cars on the merits of the product alone, I would bet the results would be different. Though, to do so would be nearly impossible because people can't just dismiss their perception of the brand.

Cadillac still shines even after years of major product stumbles thanks to their brand perception. Lincoln can't say the same and Chrysler is far down the chain that it's not even in the same league, even though they were all direct competitors at one time. This is what brand marketing is all about and Cadillac has done something very right in it's long history. But that also makes it a victim of it's own success. Remember the Cimarron? As a Cavalier, it was an ok, capable car. But with the Cadillac badge, everyone expected more. Ok and capable covered in leather just isn't enough -- it's the punchline to a joke.

I'm not saying the CTS isn't a great product. I'm saying that as a perceived leader for domestic luxury, there is less tolerance for detail slip-ups. Is it fair? Absolutely not. Is it real? Absolutely.

Remember the purpose of a long-term test: to document the day-to-day livability. To uncover the minor annoyances which can make or break your personal perception of the brand and the product. These are things that don't make themselves known in a week-long comparo test that other reviewers run. If you have read Car and Driver over the years, you have seen them completely reverse an opinion in a comparo or first-drive when the vehicle is tested long-term. Praises become pans.

Nobody knows this better than I do right now. I have a 2008 Toyota Rav4 Sport V6 with 4WD - the vehicle and combination that nearly every amateur reviewer or professional critic has heaped praises upon. It lived up to those praises for the first 5k miles but after 18k miles, I positively hate the thing. It's a pain to drive. I affectionately call it "the V6 with the performance of a 4." I expected more from Toyota and paid a premium to get it. That doesn't mean this Rav4 won't run for 300k miles and be trouble-free, true to the reputation (engineering) but I expected to be satisfied with my purchase for years to come (marketing). As a result, I will never purchase another Toyota because my perception of their brand is that their products lead to a disappointing ownership experience. And I've advised my friends to avoid them as well.

Why do people take every criticism so seriously? They didn't exactly giving glowing praise to the C300 when it left, but I didn't get all hot and bothered just because I happen to like the car. In fact, I was able to acknowledge that their criticisms were really valid and I agreed that those really were the car's short comings. I ignored the fact that nearly every European publication had given the W204 C-Class nothing but the highest of praise because they just have a different viewpoint. So it is with the differences between American publications.

I also think it is worth noting that InsideLine is the only automotive publication I know of that bought a CTS with their own money and had it in their long-term fleet for a year and half. I feel like they probably have a far better idea of the car than Motor Trend, Car and Driver, etc who test drove the car for a week and/or had a long-term car provided by the manufacturer.

HA!

1487's comments about the comments have generated more comments than the comments.

"Seriously man, maybe you could consider that perhaps, just perhaps, people with opinions different from yours aren't necessarily stupid or evil. You gotta relax."

Who said I was anything but relax. Forget about MY opinion. I am telling you what other reviewers and CTS owners (check Edmunds Consumer Reviews yourself) are saying. Not sure why everyone has trouble understanding that I am not the one who created the notion that the CTS is a world class effort. Again, do not get mad at me- direct your anger at all those who have been lavishing praise on the car since summer of 2007. If you are biased you are NEVER going to be satisfied.

Doug:

9 negative or indifferent comments and 5 positive comments. I stand corrected. Glad we got that cleared up.

Mercedes:

A few corrections/clarifications. The C class was generally liked, but not praised. It won no major automotive awards in the US upon its debut. You are comparing apples to oranges. The C was certainly a nice effort by MB but nothing new or game changing- in fact it was a mild evolution of the old car. I would say their reaction to the C class was in line with most of their peers.

CR buys its own cars. IL buys cars when it cant get them for free. Not sure how buying vs getting a car would make a difference in terms of rattles or interpretation of the styling.

bimmer:

I care about what reviewers say when there is consensus. I don't understand why this concept is difficult for you to grasp because you seem reasonably intelligent. If the reviews were hit or miss I could accept the outright negativity expressed above. They were not. The were nearly universally positive from MT to R&T to CR. I never indicated that I base my opinions solely on reviews. If you bother to take a look at edmunds very own Consumer Review section for the CTS you will see its one of the highest rated in its class. In addition, I have said numerous times that I have been inside the car several times. Nothing appears to be cheap or out of step with the competition. What cheap touches did you find inside of the CTS-V? Not that I expect you be objective. I also find it amusing that you find consensus to be problematic when it comes to certain cars. There is consensus on the 3 series/M3 and yet everyone seems OK with that. If a car is good its OK for everyone to agree on that. You dont have to fabricate weak points just to be a contrarian.

"9 negative or indifferent comments and 5 positive comments. I stand corrected. Glad we got that cleared up. "

You still don't understand my point, but you seldom if ever are willing to accept criticism so I'm not terribly surprised.

It's too bad that the Cadillac's glitches let it down. It sounded like a very promising car. It's gotten a lot of good press. That happens though... the publications loved my '04 Accord V6, but I wasn't very fond of it.

Keep working on it GM... just keep going.

A few glitches with this ONE CTS SHOULD NOT represent all CTS's.

I personally think Cadillac found a niche that nobody had yet filled as its sporty but provides the luxury BMW doesn't. That said, the CTS is a better than average car and the best Cadillac ever produced. Remember, Cadillac didn't set out to build a BMW (Infinti's job), Cadillac set out to build an American sport/luxury sedan and they succeeded.

"If a car is good its OK for everyone to agree on that. "

Good is subjective. Not sure why you can't get that through your head. 9/10 people may love a movie, a car, a dish, a city and that doesn't make it univerally good. It makes it praised by 9/10 people. Good = subjective. When judging something there isn't a right or wrong answer.

The CTS is - in my eyes - a fair looking, fair driving, nicely constructed car. A little staid for day to day life but I get why many people like it. I liked it. Wouldn't pay more than 30k MSRP for a brand new one (before GM implosion) but it's a nice car.

@dougtheeng: "I'm sure you get my point: If you want to feel like the world is against you, thats what you're going to see in whatever you read."

Man, did you ever get that one right. 1487's starting point is that there is a massive anti-domestic conspiracy. To say it colors his perception of the automotive universe would be a gigantic understatement.

1487, what is so difficult for you to understand? What is the difference between opinion and bias? Opinions are biases.

If you cannot understand that, then you're a bigger dolt than I thought.

Apologies that every vehicle in the fleet cannot be an exciting Saturn. Perhaps the Consumer Reports blog would be a better place for you to hang?

I hope the CTS is replaced by another BMW to just piss you off enough that you don't post any more.

^^ Yep - then test abother Honda Fit - only a different color - that will make his head explode.

Even though most of the time 1487 and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum, I do understand his frustration as his points are valid.

I think of the CTS as America's Jaguar; there is an emphasis on luxury but the car has a vestige of sportiness. It's certainly not my cup of tea, but it is a nice car that accomplishes exactly what Cadillac intended.

Good riddance to this junk. Hopefully the next car you guys get will be more exciting.

"Man, did you ever get that one right. 1487's starting point is that there is a massive anti-domestic conspiracy. To say it colors his perception of the automotive universe would be a gigantic understatement."

Inconsistencies, double standards. Thats what I am talking about. Actually, I generally find that Road & Track is pretty objective and reasonable. MT is all over the place so its hard to call them biased. C&D and IL pretty much mirror each other. Interesting that you (nor anyone else piling on the attacks) has offered any reasonable response to what I pointed out. If the views expressed make so much sense you would think it would be easy you justify them. Instead everyone has spent their time talking about what I said.

msh1:

Nothing you said made any sense. If you are going to try and be insulting at least be clever or at least coherent. What does any of this have to do with Saturn? I see you have been following my posts closely. I do love folks that only show up to comment on what I've said. Don't you have anything of value to share that is not related to attacking me? Thats a rhetorical question of course.

BDC:

I will try and make this simple for you. We are told that there are certain parameters that dictate whether or not a car is compelling. Some of those criteria for a car in this range would be handling, quietness, technology, style, interior design, interior materials, etc. While there is certainly some subjectivity involved in evaluating cars one would have to assume that a car that is built like a German luxury car, handles like a German luxury car, features interior design and materials that matches or exceeds a Lexus, features stand out technology and has stand out styling that is uniquely American while being competitive on price would get good reviews during a long term test. To say otherwise is basically to say the criteria changed for this particular car because those providing the opinions were predestined to dislike the car.

I definitely agree that the incessant complaining about the squeaks and rattle when they didn't try to have them fixed is asinine.

I had a base CTS loaner when my G8 GT was in for its first service. I found it to be pretty nice and I was drooling over the super-sized sunroof. The brakes had better feel (read: firmer) than my G8's and was very BMW-like (have owned 2 BMWs). The steering ratio was also a bit better than the G8's and I liked the wheel size better. The steering was a bit lighter than I'd like and certainly lighter than the G8's, but wasn't overly light and was about perfect for a typical luxury buyer. Two other complaints: 1) The button for the trip computer being on the dash made it difficult to use regularly like I do in my G8 (button on the steering wheel). 2) significant lack of headroom in the rear due to the giant sunroof. It actually has more headroom up front than my G8 though.

If they had the 3.6 DI V-6 available in the G8, I would have probably gotten that instead of the GT with the V-8. 255hp isn't enough power in a car that size, nor was the paltry increase in mileage and slight savings in cost. The DI V-6 would have solved 2 out of 3 of those and made it worth getting. It's a shame the rumored 2010 G8 with the DI V-6 never saw the light of day. I bet it would have helped sales.

1487, those are criteria you and a some journalists have claimed make a difference. Saying a car has german levels of this and lexus levels of that assumes:

1. You can prove it (you can't)
2. These marks are quantifiable (they aren't)

Saying something has Germanic feel is rather subjective. To my wife that could mean soft and sporty like her Audi or - in her eyes - rough, loud and uncomfortable like my 335i. Again, the Lexus line could mean - bland and uninspired, luxurious, Toyota-like, etc.

You believe the code means something and it's adhered to. Not everyone, including some Edmunds' editors buy into your reasoning that majority says so, so therefore it is so. They're all subjective criteria. Even noise levels and acceleration numbers are a symptom of circumstance/weather/environment/etc.

In the end it's all opinions. Yeah on a given day one car may make it around a track faster but even that's open to a million reasons why. Buy that which you like and take the criticism with a grain of salt.