2002 BMW M3: Buyer Opens A Pandora's Box of Questions

From me to Jriz - *light applause and a stiff nod of approval*

Ha ha ha. Even other Edmunds employees are not happy with you Phil! I agree with you (Phil, not the Canadian), but if the kid wants it, let him slam it into a tree. Isn't that Darwin in action?

He should check out insurance rates for the car first. I imagine they would be a bit dear.

At least he didn't suggest a Corolla.

"Then he asked if the car had been driven hard. All I could say was, "It's an M3. What do you think?"
I'm guessing he hopes it hasn't been driven too hard because that's EXACTLY what he's gonna do.
And yes, I also hope that he doesn't buy the M3 or any other sporty car till later on in his life.
High performance + High Testosterone = MAJOR accidents.

My brother got a 2007 Mustang GT new when he turned 20. It's two years later and he's on his second new Mustang GT. The first one was not traded in or sold... let's just say it's moved on to that big junkyard in the sky.

"High performance + High Testosterone = MAJOR accidents."

True, but a good brain can over rule high testosterone stupidity, and I'm living proof of that. Bought my first high performance (400+hp) car at 21, and I've owned them for the last 15 years. No accidents, and I'm still here. I did some stupid things and got lucky of course, but it's all relative.

This kid's been in love with that model of M3 since he was 13. My guess is he'll be very careful with it. If anything, the worst that can happen is he'll damage the paint from over polishing it.

The worst outcome would be if the kid wraps the M3 around a tree. While it's always nice to see the Law of Natural Selection clean up the genetic pool, there would also be one less M3 AND insurance costs for all E46 M3s would be negatively affected.

18k seems like an awful lot for this car.

As for the kid, his parents would be wise to steer him into a used Honda Accord/Chevy Malibu/Toyota Camry with the smallest engine.

My son can get a nice/fun car...when he's not living on my dime.

Found It:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/cto/1275528060.html

Gotta agree with Stingray on this one. I got my SRT-4 brand new when I was 15 to learn to drive stick on. Now it's 6 and a half years later and I have yet to have a single speeding ticket, infraction, or accident (save for when a Prius blew through a stop sign and hit me). Intelligence and a sense of responsibility will definitely outweigh your kid's testosterone and the availability of horsepower. Plus, I refuse to become a statistic.

I'm gonna go with slickersdrip and Stingray. When the folks who are nay-sayers about a 20 year old wanting a fast car were young, I bet they wanted a fast car. I'd hope these folks can remember and try not to dash the hopes of the young. Also - ageism goes both ways.

"Isn't that Darwin in action?"

Its not Darwin in action when he hits and kills some other driver. I don't care if he kills himself, but if he's an idiot on the road it endangers everyone else too.

As a young (23) owner of an E46 M3, I think that the real problem with this tableau is not that the young gentleman wants to own a high-performance car, but instead that he is probably financially unprepared to do so. With single-issue repair prices that can reach into the thousands (VANOS, inspections, even tire costs), the fact that he needs to borrow the requisite $18k from a family member is indicative of the fact that he is probably unprepared for the economics of operating this car.

(As an aside, since the question of insurance was raised, I'll volunteer that I pay ~$140 a month for full coverage with generous limits on my M3. I realize that's not exactly cheap, and that's with a perfect driving record.)

To the issue of youth-induced antics, I'm going to defer to Stingray, above: "...a good brain can over rule high testosterone stupidity..."

yellowmiata,

Dash the hopes? Just the opposite - instill drive and desire. You want something: go out and earn it. My parents gave me zip when it came to cars; I had good grades and never got in trouble so in my view it's an extremely generous offer to let a kid get any car. He wants something faster and nicer - it's great to want things. Buck up and go earn it yourself.

It has nothing to do with insurance, crashing, tickets. It has everything to do with desire and determination. Get it yourself - nothing in life will ever be handed to you. I want his first car to suck bad enough that he's thirsty for a good car. My first car (purchased for $1250) was an 83 Ford Exp. I spent countless hours fixing it. And hating it. And lusting after the 911s and 300ZXs in my school parking lot.

no way can he afford this car, one set of brake pads is going to take a month of his income.

blueguydotcom,

Good points - but I don't think forcing a bad car on someone who wishes for something different instills values. Rather it shows the values of the person doing the forcing.

Also, it seems that he is going to "take out a loan from an uncle." Loans are usually paid back - so it would seem he is "bucking up and earning it." Well, that's what the outside picture says - maybe his uncle won't require payment, so the whole story remains a bit hazy.

I agree that the cost of ownership of a vehicle (insurance, repairs, etc.) should also be factored - this is another good point. When I was younger, I didn't have the foresight to understand longer term payments and costs of ownership, but that doesn't mean I should judge this 20 year old - he might have his head screwed on tighter than I did.

I remember now that we live in a free country and if this kid wants to push money into a car and is trying to find a way to do this who am I to say no? I may be able to advise him one way or another, but, ultimately it's his choice. We're all car-nuts here, why disallow another to join the fold?

Finally, perhaps the salty-fish on this site are trying to impart wisdom. The wisdom that will keep this 20 year old from ending up like the young man with his father's M5:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=124526

Good discussion!
Kevin

Just because he is taking out a loan from his uncle to pay for the car doesn't mean that he can't necessarily afford it. He could be well aware of the costs of maintenance on the vehicle (and if he has been following these cars for 7 years I would suspect that he is). He may be choosing to take the loan from his uncle instead of paying with his own cash specifically for the reason that he will have enough money left over in the meantime to cover any expenses that may crop up due to owning a high mileage German vehicle.

I think that many members are stereotyping us younger guys. He may be 20 in a high performance car but that doesn't mean that he will wrap it around a tree, and I have seen many kids do just that with a Civic.

I'm 18 and drive a modified 2001 Audi S4 so I know all about the costs of owning a german car out of warranty far too well. My car should be good for a high 12 second to low 13 second 1/4 mile, but that doesn't mean I don't drive it sensibly. Yes, it is a lot of fun to open up on an on-ramp or in the twisties in the Rocky mountains, but that doesn't mean that the majority of my driving isn't done in a very reasonable manner.

There will always be the young idiots out there, but there are also the guys like me who worked hard for their vehicles and understand the responsibility that comes with driving them - hopefully the guy who wants to buy the M3 is part of the latter group.

I find it funny that you hope he buys a civic, but the closest car to the BMW in dynamics (not power in this config) is a Mazda 3. IMO Mazda 3 is a much better value than any Civic, Corolla poo-poo. And just as reliable.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=124526
That is EXACTLY what came to mind when I wrote my post.

If he wants the M3 bad enough, there's nothing that any of us can do to stop him. And I should rephrase my post by saying that I hope he's MATURE enough to know what he's getting into;
since maturity comes by wisdom; not age.

What makes a 20 year old's $18k worth less than a wholesaler's $18k? And who says the car doesn't find its way into the hands of a different 20 year old, even if sold to a wholesaler?

Right, greenpony.

Any for that kind of money ($18,000) I have friends who have several of the cars mentioned in this thread and other very low powered cars, such as Honda FIts with Navi, Accords with 4 bangers and automatics, Camrys with 4 cylinders, Ford Rangers, and others and I don't think anyone would consider them spoiled. They also have tons of speeding tickets and one friend of mine with a Tacoma leave his car unlocked with the keys sitting in the driver's seat hoping someone will please just take it from him so he has an excuse to get something more sporty.

Perhaps having a car that one has spent the last 7 years lusting after will mean that this young man will spend the rest of his life babying the car--not speeding, not risking curb rash from random parallel parking spots-- and parking way out in a parking lot to prevent door dings. I couldn't imagine a better buyer for a car. Chances are that this is the likely scenario.

Blueguy, I tend to agree with what you say, but punishing someone for the purpose of wanting to aspire for more doesn't quite compute. I've enjoyed my $20,000 SRT-4 (complete with a lot of modifications that I've worked to pay for myself), but that doesn't stop me from working as hard as I can through my chosen major at the University of Texas to get a job so that I may one day afford a superior car--such as a used G8 GXP or CTS-V. It's just a relative scale to me. I'm grateful my parents were able to offer that level to me, not one to take it for granted.

After reading through my comment--please, can we have an edit button?

Mother of god he's twenty and wanting to buy (and borrow 18k to buy it?) an M3? His families either complete loaded and he's spoiled, or they're all crazy. My first car at 16 was a 91 Saturn SL1 (90hp on a good day...god help me if I tried to merge onto the highway with the AC on) that cost me 2k in cash which I paid back over three months to my parents.

Second car was a 96 Passat (how I loved thee!) but paying insurance on that, repairs, and payments in college almost ruined me. Still one of my favorite cars however and that was at 21.

This kids parents need to sit him down and tell him to either do it his own with loans under his name ONLY, or else suck it up and buy a beater or the best he can afford. There's no way someone his age can realistically pay for standard maintenance, insurance, and pay back his uncle at the same time

i think he should buy a high quality chevy aveo and get the left over girls at school.

argosreality - how do you know he can't afford it? You seem to be basing your picture of his financial situation on your own experiences.

You seem to be thinking that his uncle is taking out a fresh loan from a bank in order to give the money to his nephew. I would assume that you're wrong, and that the reason he is using his uncle for a loan is because his uncle has substantial cash resources and is giving the kid either a zero or very low percent loan.

Also, you need to quit assuming that he can't pay for it. Taking out a loan doesn't mean that you can't pay for something, and can actually be a very smart decision if you're getting an excellent rate (which I believe is the case here). The guy may be 20, but that doesn't mean that he can't have a well-paying job, even if it is part-time outside of school.

Sounds like you're just jealous.

C'mon guys, the future belongs to plastic cars with electric motors. Let the kid have some fun.

"...and has been driven only 74,000 miles."
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/cto/1275528060.html

Ha! A BMW that's been driven ONLY 74k miles? Sorry, guys, anything German over 50k miles is high miles.

I really hope that kid considers a something like an older S2000 to get his RWD thrills. Reasonably powered relative to his ostensible driving experience. Cheap to fix and more reliable.

"Ha! A BMW that's been driven ONLY 74k miles? Sorry, guys, anything German over 50k miles is high miles."

Really? My 1995 3er track rat has over 166,000 miles and has only needed @$400 of non-scheduled maintenance. Total repair and maintenance costs(including four sets of track tires) since I bought it new average @$33/month My wife's 2004 X3 has @80,000 and has only required an SRS sensor(warranty) and one set each of brakes and tires. Total maintenance/repair costs: $56/month. I have owned my 1975 2002 for only about 10 months, but the previous owner did have to rebuild the engine at 196,000 miles. What a piece of junk!
I know an E46 M3 won't be quite as cheap to run, but a good indie shop and/or a decent dealer(NOT Santa Monica BMW) coupled with membership in BMW CCA could easily result in very reasonable running costs.

Oops. Edit: My 3er has 116,000 miles.

"There's no way someone his age can realistically pay for standard maintenance, insurance, and pay back his uncle at the same time"

Why not? I started at my current job when I was 20, making $45,000 a year. I mean really depending on your trade there's no reason you can't have a well paying job by 20.