2008 Smart Fortwo: Greener Vehicles

I don't know, that red and yellow hot rod looks pretty awesome!

None of those... I'm holding out for the Pelosi special! I hear I can get it in special Alec Baldwin trim, and the first 500 buyers get their hood signed by Michael Moore! I'm already waiting in line.

I still have a place in my heart for my Big Wheel. It was bling all the way baby! Red, yellow and blue with one mighty 24" in front! Now that's riding in style.

Oh no, they're pushing for innovation and better engines! This "stay the course" attitude put the American car companies in their current spots.

@Brian,

Is there anything wrong with innovation? What is it with people like you who oppose anything that Obama does?

The air is cleaner in big cities like LA because EPA tightened the regulations. Your family is safer on the roads today because the feds mandated crumple zones. The roads are safer because the feds mandated safer Superelevations & curve standards. Your money is safe in the bank because FDIC insures it. Your medications are safer because FDA ensures that it is.

But oh noes!!! Limbaugh & Hannity shouted on the Radio today that it is Socialism & Marxism.....So any government imposed standards is wrong!!!

@ jstandefer

I think the last 8 years of Bush/Cheney philosophy has brought us 2 wars & a failed economy.

You guys lost in Nov. Most Americans rejected the GOP ideology. Deal with it.

wobbly_ears... First off, LA has cleaner air than it did before because the state of California began regulating air pollutants before the federal government got into that business, which is the reason why California is the only state that has been allowed to set their own regulations.

Second, 529 people out of every 1,000 rejected the GOP candidate. That's hardly most Americans. As for ideology, even here in what is supposed to be ultra liberal California, the people consistenly vote against bigger government spending and increased taxes and even gay marriage.

But most importantly, the current administration taking a majority stake in a non-government entity is questionable, and how is it that the entities that brought us the DMV and post office think they can run GM better? Do you think the new GM is going to survive without further government funds by being forced to build nothing but green vehicles? The people's true vote is how they spend their hard-earned money, and they consistently buy big cars, trucks, and SUVs. If they didn't, I think Toyota would have an entire line of hybrids rather than trying to match GM and Ford for every big SUV and truck that they produced.

The real innovation that will produce results will be building the drivetrain that can cleanly and very efficiently propel large vehicles at a price that people can afford. Not vehicles like the so-called Smart. How innovative is the Smart? Fuel mileage sucks for something that small. Price is the same as larger vehicles that get similar mileage. It's terrible to drive, and it's unsafe against anything larger than itself. And to top it all off, after the initial sales boom that even the Pontiac Aztek first enjoyed, nobody wants it. Is that what the administration wants GM to build? Is that what's going to bring GM out of this mess? Is that what big daddy government regulation going to bring us?

The market should always decide - my dollars would decide against the Smart especially after the recent IIHS crash video. Honda Fit or Fusion hybrid are much better in every way.

I'm liking that yellow hot rod. Got the breeze in your hair, look cool, and be green. Probably wont pass the side impact test since the first thing it hits is your leg. O well.

The Obamessiah running Gummint Motors.
Yeah, that's going to work...

Shouldn't this have been posted in the spy shots section? I think the pink one is the 2012 Camaro, and the trike is the new Silverado. Hard to tell with the mismatched-paint camoflage.

"The real innovation that will produce results will be building the drivetrain that can cleanly and very efficiently propel large vehicles at a price that people can afford"

In other words you want a 4000 pound vehicle with 300 hp that seat seven and gets the mileage of a geo metro at the price of one too.

You aren't willing to give up a damm thing so you want engineers to pull a rabbit out of their hat so you can have you cake and eat it too.

There are lots of car around the world that can meet the standards now (even ignoring the Smart). The hard part is not coming up with new technology, it convincing Americans more is not always more and bigger is not better.

"In other words you want a 4000 pound vehicle with 300 hp that seat seven and gets the mileage of a geo metro at the price of one too."

For the most part, yes. No, it wouldn't be the price of a Geo Metro. But it also wouldn't be six figures for a two-seat electric vehicle.

"You aren't willing to give up a damm thing so you want engineers to pull a rabbit out of their hat so you can have you cake and eat it too."

That's why it's called innovation. Who would have thought that we could make something that weighs over 350,000 pounds fly across continents? Who would have thought that we could walk on the moon? Who would have thought that we could build something that could perform billions of calculations per second... and make it so tiny that microscopes are required to see its components?

When the first smog regulations went into effect, it was predicted we would never see a muscle car again. And yet today, the non-performance versions of family sedans flirt with 300 horsepower, and yet run many, many times cleaner.

Forcing people to adapt to current technology provides for a bleak, unhappy future. Adapting new technology to meet the wants and needs of people is the future. Innovation drives the future. If you give in and say it's impossible, you will NEVER achieve it.

"If you give in and say it's impossible, you will NEVER achieve it."

I never said it was impossible. I've worked in engineering for over 20 years and in product development for almost ten. Given enough time, there's almost no problem we can't solve.

My point is I'm tired of people expecting it.

Instead of solving the problem of oil shortages and pollution themselves by simply using less, they expect someone else to do it for them.

That way they can continue on their merry way showing no responibility for their actions.

That's silly - I expect others to fix problems b/c that's the job they signed up for. I'm not going to suddenly become an engineer b/c there are automotive problems. I expect the engineers to design great, affordable cars, cops to enforce the law and teachers to teach. I'm not going to solve those problems myself.... this seems self evident. Those that engineered the Fortwo could have done a better job - I expect it.

Maybe Mr. Moody belongs on TTAC...with the rest of the 'publicans! ha.

Great picture guys! I love it! I assume the Smart is the Cadillac stretch limo of the bunch.

briancam

Read my post again. I never said I expected you to redesign a car.

The best way to solve a problem to to deal with it directly instead of trying to engineer a way around it.

In other words, stop creating the problem and expecting others to solve it.

I'll take the scooter, thanks.

"That's why it's called innovation."

Fuel economy has been a priority in the US for a couple years.

Fuel economy has been priority one in Europe for decades. Gas is taxed to $6-8 a gallon there. And with the efforts of thousands of professional engineers and billions of dollars in development money... their cars still work exactly like our cars do and high mileage is achieved the same way it is here, by making cars tiny and slow.

Engineering is only magic when you don't understand it.

I thought this was a car blog...

What?!? NO POGO STICK?!?

heh heh

where is the TDI Jetta? It had higher average mpg than the Smart if I remember correctly...
I guess you are not trying to make a valid point just express your dislike of higher MPG standards.

"...their cars still work exactly like our cars do and high mileage is achieved the same way it is here, by making cars tiny and slow."

And what is the European incentive for making a large fuel-efficient car? Large vehicles are cumbersome in Europe where most of the infrastructure was laid out and built well before the birth of automobiles. Add to that their very high taxes that make more expensive vehicles out of reach for much of the population. And that means keeping things as inexpensive as possible, which generally demands using small size and tiny engines rather than newer technology to increase fuel mileage.

It would be nice to change the American attitude, but what are we talking here? Our do-it-yourself attitude favors big home-improvement warehouses that favors big trucks and SUVs to carry that stuff. Our city/suburb/freeway infrastructure and general lack of mass transit requires commutes that favors big comfortable vehicles. Our larger families and toys require larger vehicles. Change on a wide scale would take generations and trillions upon trillions of dollars. Much like you can't just snap your finger and create a super efficient large vehicle, you can't snap your finger and change the lifestyle and thinking of an entire nation. But what are we closer to? That large efficient vehicle, or changing the mindset and infrastructure of an entire nation?

Firstwagon you said "Instead of solving the problem of oil shortages and pollution themselves by simply using less, they expect someone else to do it for them"

Under the current administration alot of people "expect someone else to do it for them", so don't expect the American mindset to change any time soon.

I would love for Americans to use less. I think we all need to use less. That is my own personal conviction and I don't think imposing standards is ever a good way to change mindsets.

Americans won't change until they have to. I think that is the only thing we can count on.

oh yeah, I would just walk...

jstandefer

You have a good point. It doesn't make a lot of sense to compare the US to Europe. There are too many cultural differences.

How about comparing to Canada then.

We have the same size families and the same size people. We have the same style cities and the same long highways. We have the same big box stores everywhere and the same lousy mass transit.

And yet the top 10 selling cars in Canada are...

Honda Civic
Toyota Corolla
Mazda 3
Toyota Yaris
Chevy Cobalt
Hyundai Accent
Pontiac G5
Toyota Camry
Nissan Versa
Ford Focus

Only one of them even offers a V6.

There are still lots of minivans for big families and pick ups for people with big toys or work.

However the majority don't have large families these days or need a pick up. Thus most people buy small cars.

The only mindset that has to change is the idea that if you can afford bigger , you must buy bigger. I don't know how long that would take but it wouldn't cost a cent.

I am partial to the 3 wheeler.

firstwagon...

For calendar year 2008, the top 10 selling vehicles in the U.S. were:

Ford F-150
Chevrolet Silverado
Toyota Camry
Honda Accord
Toyota Corolla
Honda Civic
Nissan Altima
Chevrolet Impala
Dodge Ram
Honda CRV

It is interesting that only 3 vehicles overlap, and that the Accord doesn't even show up in the Canada top 10 but hasn't left the U.S. list in too many years to count. But the U.S. list has four midsize sedans (of which the 4-cylinder versions are the most popular, except the Impala of course), two compacts, and a compact CUV, so it's not really too bad. The full-size trucks are greatly fueled by fleet sales, particularly to the construction industry, but the majority is still retail.

I have to admit that I have one of those full-size pick-ups. An '06 F-150 Supercrew with the biggest of the V8s (there was no signficant MPG difference between any of the available engines). But it's not my daily driver... an '07 S60 is, which sips less fuel than the two Miatas, 4-cyl Mazda6, Protege ES, and Escort GT that I had before it. And I have a '91 RX-7 Vert for fun, but that makes my truck look fuel efficient. If I had to give up all but one, I would keep the truck. Despite the dismal fuel economy, I can't argue with its do-everything capabilities. If a diesel version was offered, I would be all over it.

But you can definitely see the preference differences in the two lists. In the U.S., the Yaris, Accent, G5, and Versa just aren't that popular. And quite honestly, I think they just don't offer enough value here in the States. I wonder if the pricing is that much different? I helped a coworker buy a car about five weeks ago. She ended up with a Focus, but we looked at a lot of the subcompacts and were not impressed with price or fuel economy. The larger Focus was the clear winner.

firstwagon...

Canada sales figures are hard to find, and they never seem to list cars and trucks together, so I don't think you purposely listed just the cars. When trucks are factored in, here's how it stacked up in 2008:

Honda Civic
Ford F-Series
Toyota Corolla
Mazda3
Dodge Ram
Toyota Yaris
Dodge Grand Caravan
Chevrolet Silverado
Chevrolet Cobalt
GMC Sierra

So, I guess Canada is not much different than the U.S. In fact, Canadians seem to like large trucks even more than Americans do. 2008 was the first time in 15 years that a car outsold the F-Series in Canada. Admittedly, I was taken aback by the first list you posted. This makes more sense...