2009 Audi S5: Not Enough Guts for My Tastes

maybe the quattro system's power delivery isn't dramatic enough?? (i.e. no sense of overwhelming the tires)

maybe the quattro system's power delivery isn't dramatic enough?? (i.e. no sense of overwhelming the tires). keep in mind this is a luxury GT

S5 is slower than a 335i, to say nothing of an M3. And sadly, the S5 is only $3450 cheaper than an M3 (the S5 starts at $51,400, the M3 starts at $54,840). The S5 is tremendously overpriced.

But the M3 is so loud and shouty with its aggressive power dome and M3 badged air inlets and wide (obese) proportions. It looks tough. The S5, on the other hand, seems more classy, more reserved, calmer and nicer. I don't think the S5 was ever meant to compete with the M3, but maybe an E550 or 335i.

And yeah, for a big, very expensive luxury GT car, 354 hp probably isn't enough. But this car wasn't designed to be exhilarating like an M3 or Ferrari. Hopefully the RS5 will have at least 550.

If the S5 was designed to compete with the 335i then it's even more ridiculously overpriced because the 335i starts at $40,300 ($42,200 for the coupe).

:raises hand: May I sample the S5?

Yeah because if one car is faster, the other slower one is overpriced. I've got it now.

People don't buy Audi's for ultimate speed.

cx7lover, so why do they buy Audis? They don't ride better or handle better, their interior design has, at best, stagnated while everyone else's has advanced, MMI is still a usability disaster unlike the new iDrive... I guess (arguably better) looks and quattro are worth an $8-10K premium? Do tell what makes the S5 (or even A5) so preciously priced.

BTW, I spent a week in an '06 S4 with 6MT, which is a slightly less powerful version of the same engine (though in a lighter car), and I completely agree, it's not powerful enough, and nowhere near torquey enough (it was much less torquey than a 335i, or even an '08 G35). Fantastic sounding engine, but couldn't for the life of me figure out any other reason to buy one.

"And yeah, for a big, very expensive luxury GT car, 354 hp probably isn't enough. But this car wasn't designed to be exhilarating like an M3 or Ferrari. Hopefully the RS5 will have at least 550."

GT cars are all about power and comfort. This car fails on power.

"...their interior design has, at best, stagnated while everyone else's has advanced, MMI is still a usability disaster unlike the new iDrive"

esoterica - With the above statements, the rest of your argument has lost much credibility. Have you actually even used MMI?

Audi/VW interior design is usually at the forefront, and the A5/S5 series is no exception. Many, upon many, independent reviews agree with this sentiment, so while you are entitled to your opinion, know that the majority is against you. The same goes for your comments about MMI.

Additionally, I implore you to find a 335i (either coupe or sedan) that a BMW dealer is willing to let go for your quoted price. Good luck.

Anyway, I concur with Ed and the other posts that the S5 could use a shot of more power relative to its intended competition. However, I think it has more to do with the drivetrain calibration than the engine's specified output. For example, a recalibrated throttle map that allows for more aggressive tip-in would probably give you more than a 'gentle nudge' at launch.

Some Euro reviews suggest that the car is happier as an A5 than as an S5--because it doesn't create false expectations of brute power.

Then again, perhaps the S5, rather than the 135i, should've been the beneficiary of your trip to the reflashers. . .

After spending a couple of days in an '06 S4 6-speed I'll agree that it does feel slow. But wow it does sound better than anything I've ever driven before. I also can't get over the looks of this car, I think it looks better than anything in the price class. I hate that Audi has joined the plasti-metal fad though, but it is at least the best plasti-metal (same as GM's premium vehicles). I think the vast majority of interior design complaints would subside with a splash of color to the dash and seats at least.

I am not sure about the S5, but the thing I didn't like about the A5 was that it was too soft. It seems like to was made to be more of a luxury cruiser, than an autobahn burner.

I had a 2005 A6 3.2 and it was a great car. The interiors and MMI in Audis are top notch but all Audis are underpowered compared to the competition. One of the biggest benefits of Audi is all wheel drive. I live in the northeast and quattro is a monster in the snow. I now drive a Bmw 535xi it has alot more performance than the A6 but doesnt handle snow the same way i noticed a huge difference this past winter. so if you want a luxury car in bad weather Audi is the best way to go if you dont mind a little less performance. i do love the way the bimmer drives and i just took it on a NYC-MIA road trip last week and put on 3,500 miles in 1 week at one point i drove non stop for 8 hours only stopped for gas and snacks and it was super comfortable.

why did you guys buy a red S5....looks better in white.

Did you happen to pass through Colorado Springs? I was driving around on Tuesday afternoon and saw a red S5. I must admit, it was beautiful, especially with the LED's. They are so eye-catching.

It's probably programming. That much power and torque even with 3900 pounds of car should feel quick. My bet is that it is quicker than it feels. That said do you want it to feel quicker (i.e. sharper throttle/trans response), or just be quick?

Also, it's not really fair to copare it to an M3. A 335, yes. M3, no. Save that for the RS5!

"Then again, perhaps the S5, rather than the 135i, should've been the beneficiary of your trip to the reflashers..."

stephen987 - The current LT S5 is normally aspirated, and as such, would not experience the type of gains from an ECU mod as a forced induction engine like the 135's would.

Great post. I'm quite curious, I expect the RS5 to have a breathed-on version of this motor and for the S5 to get the s/c 6. I personally find the the S5 & A5 to be stunning designs... and the V8 sounds amazing (also a fan of the AWE tuning exhaust for this application - check it out!).

Anyway, I've heard a few complaints about vibrations, which does alarm me - IL bloggers, please keep a lookout for this:

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/audi/125648-audi-s5-a5-owners-do-you-have-any-vibration-issues.html

Once they put the 3.0T Supercharged V6 in the S5 I will be interested. It will be slightly lighter and the torgue will peak lower leading to a more muscular feel. Plus i'm sure tuners are already working on cheap easy ways for much more output from it. The 4.2 liter is an awesome engine as everybody noted, but it won't knock your socks off in a heavy AWD car. They should have just dropped in the R8's version of the 4.2 but for obvious reasons you don't want your $55k sports coupe making as much power as your halo car. And while it is purely subjective, I love how Audi does interiors because they are less cold than interiors that often show up in various MB's and Bimmers.

I agree 100%, we live in Colorado springs and test drove one in Denver. Very smooth driver and interior but no where near enough power. Left the dealership unimpressed.

Compared to the 335i (which IS the S5's competition) this car is overpriced and under delivers. It's super pretty to look at. But way, way overpriced.

People asking about color need to remember they got this from Audi. They may not have unlimited flexibility in choosing a color for the LT car.

Audi keep making cars that are between lower end BMWs and M cars. The S5 is more powerful than the 335i but far short of the M3 and costs between the two. The new S4 is similar in purpose and pricing. This car is expensive, but not for a German car. All GErman cars are overpriced but Audi gives you a little more value generally than BMW or MB.

Ok, so the Edmunds test of the M3 had a 0-60 of 4.8 sec. I read a few reviews of the S5 and the 0-60 was between 4.8 and 5.0, so where do the arguments that the car is underpowered come from, exactly?

I suspect that figure was Edmund's simply quoting BMW's figure, which are notoriously conservative. In fact, on the online review Edmund's mentioned a 4.3s 0-60 time with a one-foot rollout, C&D got a 4.1s, R&T somewhere around 4.3. Not sure where the S5 falls, but the M3 figure is definitely lower than 4.8 even without the rollout.

I'd like to see this sucker thrown on a dyno for kicks.

Edmunds got 4.6 sec for the M3 and 4.9 sec for the s5 in their comparo. The 4.8 was for the M3 sedan. They also got 4.8 for the 335i coupe (which does seem to be the bargain of the bunch, but that is as much in comparison to the M3 than the Audi).

I think the S5 holding it's own in this case, especially if it's aim is to be a more refined GT car, since it seems that the M3 is a bit raucous (according to reviews). Some buyers might expect more refinement at the sticker price than the M3 offers, and are willing to sacrifice a tenth or two. Others prefer a hellion for their hard earned cash, and they will be happy with the M3 (I would likely be as well). I think sometimes there is too much bashing (both ways) and not enough understanding that one's persons absolute winner is not another's- and people prefer different attributes in their cars, JMHO

" am not sure about the S5, but the thing I didn't like about the A5 was that it was too soft. It seems like to was made to be more of a luxury cruiser, than an autobahn burner. "

Thats because it is... This car is meant for cruising, i feel it should be compared to a 6 series or even a continental GT. At the end of the day you are getting ferrari/aston martin like aesthetics for an amazing price!

Shouldn't it be compared to a 335xi (sedan or coupe)? In which case the BMW comes in cheaper but I think that's without leather (which is standard on the Audi) and who knows what else.

" am not sure about the S5, but the thing I didn't like about the A5 was that it was too soft. It seems like to was made to be more of a luxury cruiser, than an autobahn burner. "

Thats because it is... This car is meant for cruising, i feel it should be compared to a 6 series or even a continental GT. At the end of the day you are getting ferrari/aston martin like aesthetics for an amazing price!

That's a joke right? Comparing it to a Continental GT or a Ferrari/Aston. There is no comparison to cars of that caliber.

I have trouble believing the S5's competition is the 335i (or more appropriately, the xDrive Coupe), which starts at $44,100. Its competition is certainly not the M3. Simply put, these are very different animals. People who purchase the Bimmers may well do so without looking at the Audi, and vica verca. They occupy different spaces in the market. Closer competition, methinks, comes from the Mercedes CLK550, which starts at $56,800 (or the new Merc E Coupe, which will replace it). That said, if one must compare the 335i to the S5, you might as well go apples-to-apples on price. The base S5 starts with a high level of amenities. It would be easy to drive a base one off the lot. This is not the case (imho) with pretty much any BMW, including the 335i. You don't even get real leather without paying for it. To "catch up" the 335i xDrive Coupe to the S5, you must add the Sport Package ($850), Premium Package($2,650), 18" wheels ($600 - you can't get 19s, as on the S5), and heated seats ($500). To the Audi you must add wood trim ($500 - the 335i has this standard). So now we have a bimmer with, what is by most accounts I've read, an inferior exterior, interior, and AWD system, and superior handling to the S5, out the door for $49,525. The equivalent S5, after gas guzzler tax, is out the door for $54,025. You also get 4 years of free maintenance with the BMW - that's gotta be worth something. If things like 0-60 matter, the 335i will do 0-100kmph in 5.5 seconds. The S5 will do the same in 4.9 seconds. Is that superior interior & exterior design, more sorted AWD, and burbly V8 worth an extra $4,500 plus maintenance? To me, yes. For others, perhaps not. Depending on where you live, Quattro might be overkill. You can get the bimmer without AWD, reduce the vehicle's weight, and spend less money. No such flexibility with the S5. Still, I would argue that the 335i and S5 play in slightly different spaces, even as it becomes harder to argue that the S5 is "overpriced" when compared to the 335i.

I've driven both the A5 and S5. I'd characterize the A5 as not even close to what GT should be, in terms of performance. The S5 I'd describe as just barely enough - though props to Audi for nailing the V8's engine note. I've driven the 335i too (though not the xDrive), and have found it more fun to drive when pushed. I have to sit in, look at, and listen to my car most every day. For those reasons, the S5 wins out imho. Its performance is tremendous enough to put a smile on my face, even if the bimmer is a little more fun. It's also still a bit of a rarity, which I like. Sixty grand for the one I'll buy, vs. $55k for the (roughly) equivalent 335i.

"Audi/VW interior design is usually at the forefront, and the A5/S5 series is no exception. Many, upon many, independent reviews agree with this sentiment, so while you are entitled to your opinion, know that the majority is against you. "

Audi's interior design theme has been around for about 4 years now, its a little stale. While they used to have a clear lead when it came to interior design there is no such advantage today. Audi needs to take some risks and come up with a new interior theme. The A4, A6, S5 and Q7 almost have the same interiors.

I just don't get Audi...

Performance? BMW is better
Luxury? Lexus and MB both have it beat
Prestige? MB is da man
Value? You are kidding right?
Reliability? That company starts with the letter 'L'
Interior? Overrated

So unless I live in the snow-belt and "need" to have AWD then I really don't see the point of buying Audi.

tryan, Audi used to have the best interiors, but in the past 10 years, while they may have gotten better in terms of build quality (parts may not be as likely to fall off these days), they've decidedly gotten worse in terms of materials and design. Hard plastics? Silver painted plastic around the instrument cluster? canted away from the driver so it glares? And the rest of the interior in the A5 (and even more so in the A4) looks like a parts bin threw up all over it -- the "design" looks 1990's Japanese, at best. And yes, I've used MMI, extensively. It sucks. Not as bad as the old iDrive, but it's far inferior to the new iDrive, the touchscreen in the Genesis, the touchscreen/wheel combo in the CTS, the touchscreen in the G37, and even MB's COMAND.

Oh, and no, if you've driven this engine you'd know that a throttle recalibration wouldn't help -- it's simply a high-revving V8 and is gutless down low. The 335i simply creams it in low-to-midrange torque.

As a former B5-S4 owner, and equal parts BMW and Audi fanboy, I was also not impressed with a recent test drive of the S5. Compounded by the Denver altitude (certainly a lot of CO people on here), it felt absolutely enemic. I shuffled back to my 335i and asked forgiveness for being lured by a pretty face. I really used to think of Audi's as the clever alternative to the obvious Bavarian choice. Now I just think of understeer and overweight, and underpowered and overpriced.

"Audi's interior design theme has been around for about 4 years now, its a little stale. While they used to have a clear lead when it came to interior design there is no such advantage today. Audi needs to take some risks and come up with a new interior theme. The A4, A6, S5 and Q7 almost have the same interiors."

Really 4 years is to old for you? The A6 is only 4 years old, you really expect car manufactures to completely re do interiors at a car's mid cycle refresh? The Q7 as well is only 3 years old. Then your other complaint is that Audi took an award winning interior from a $50-80k car and dropped it into a $30-60k car so that makes it stale? I call it revolutionary! If you look at the interior of the A5, A4 it is definitely a step up then all of the rivals in regards to design and materials. You have to remember sometimes its hard to reinvent the wheel, let alone every 4 years. I rather a interior that is honed over time to perfection rather then a radical new design on every model that always fails (which to me is every BMW with exception to the new 7).

"I have trouble believing the S5's competition is the 335i (or more appropriately, the xDrive Coupe), which starts at $44,100. Its competition is certainly not the M3. Simply put, these are very different animals."

I would disagree - I think the 335i xDrive and S5 are natural competitors and their prices (comparably-equipped) among other things reflects this. I drove an S5 6-speed at Infineon Raceway last year and was extremely impressed with a couple things:

1) Beautiful interior, hands down
2) Perfect engine/exhaust note. Worth the fuel economy penalty
3) Impressive handling, not far off the 335i's capabilities at all, if not just a little less tactile and more heavily damped. More impressive considering this was achieved with AWD
4) No more front-heavy understeer like Audis of the past, this car is very balanced and I like the neutral RWD bias
5) Nicely weighted steering with some actual feel dialed in

I walked away quite impressed - the actual performance numbers are very close to a 335i's, although power delivery is different, the N54 does give you more shove down low. When you load up a 335i xDrive Coupe it's only a couple grand less than a loaded S5. The 335i does miss a few features (backup camera, CD changer, 19" wheels on xDrive models, Audi Drive Select), but it also beats the Audi on a few (free BMW Assist and maintenance for 4 yr/50k, free RTT for the nav, a real power moonroof).

Where the Audi flat out loses to the BMW is residual value - which translates into leases that cost hundreds more on similar terms to a 335i. So depending on your financing choice, the S5 could actually cost a bunch more.

I'm heavily considering an RS5 (or even an S5) for my next car.

It's already been said so I don't need to validate why people buy Audi's.

Niche market, you wouldn't understand.

People keep claiming the BMW 335xi Coupe is a much better deal than the S5.

But, to get the 335xi Coupe remotely close in terms of options to a standard base model S5, the difference is a mere $850.

All i am trying to say is that BMW makes almost everything an option, while Audi makes almost everything a standard feature. Hell, BMW even charges you for floor mats... I could buy a $10,000 Kia Rio and get standard floor mats, but when I get a $50,000+ BMW, I get charged for it?

"4) No more front-heavy understeer like Audis of the past, this car is very balanced and I like the neutral RWD bias"

I guess you really didn't to push the S5 very hard. It still understeers significantly. Don't believe me? Ask Audi's dynamics chief.

"Yet, to drive, the A5 – and S5 especially – still has the nose-heavy, inert feel the new chassis was surely intended to eradicate.

So, what happened? Dr Horst Glaser, Audi’s dynamics chief, is clearly annoyed. ‘I agree with you,’ he says, ‘but the marketing people insisted it was this way so the A5 would feel familiar to Audi buyers.’ What about those buyers Audi seeks to steal from BMW, then? ‘I hope we can change it gradually,’ Dr Glaser replies, ruefully."
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/209164/audi_a5.html

"I guess you really didn't to push the S5 very hard. It still understeers significantly. Don't believe me? Ask Audi's dynamics chief."

Maybe I should have been a little more clear in comparing it to virtually every other Audi I've driven. In that respect it does understeer considerably less by comparison. A nose-heavy native front-driver will pretty much always understeer at the limit.

Bimmerjay - I have to completely disagree. The vehicle can always be setup to be neutral or oversteer biased, and fairly easily.

The 135 is a study in understeer, stock.

Virtually all cars understeer, stock. Something I think the manufacturer's lawyers recommend due to liability concerns.

The point is, the A5/S5 was supposed to finally take a hammer to the 3-Series and beat it to death. Remember this video? (Specifically its ending comments)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYPwtJW6jcw

Instead, because of marketing, there are those now trying to make excuses that it is a GT that compares with the 6-Series. The engineers said it would be as good to drive as the 3-Series, but Audi let the marketing people overrule them. Isn't Audi's slogan "Truth in Engineering"?

However, it sounds like Audi has listened and has let the engineers have their way with the new S4. Hopefully, the S5 is improved upon significantly when it receives the 3.0T and new diff.

lb/ft > hp

Especially on cars this heavy

"Bimmerjay - I have to completely disagree. The vehicle can always be setup to be neutral or oversteer biased, and fairly easily."

If I had a dollar for every FWD car I drove that didn't understeer, I'd have approximately $0.

I'm sorry but this is a pointlessly ugly car.

I've seen these boats on the road. It's a big and boring coupe. Coupes aren't supposed to be big or boring. At that size, throw an extra pair of doors on it, call it a 6 series and be done with it.

One of the most disappointing and uninteresting cars I've ever seen on the road. Who is it for? Were all the other coupe options sold out when somebody purchased one? Looks like an overpriced, two-door Jetta with an Audi badge. From other angles it looks like a slightly less feminine TT...

Fail. With BMW, I don't see Audis being an option.

@mugwomp

"Coupes aren't supposed to be big or boring."

The S5 being "boring" is subjective. If you think the the S5 is big, how about the Bentley Brooklands, Rolls Royce Phantom Coupe, or even the Ferrari 612?

"With BMW, I don't see Audis being an option."

Some people want something different. It's come to the point where you can't go for one minute without seeing at least one BMW on the road. Audis may be flawed, but I think it's refreshing to see them on the road once in awhile. It's all about individuality.

"Looks like an overpriced, two-door Jetta with an Audi badge."

The Jetta looks like a Corolla, the S5 doesn't.

@bimmerjay:

I'd have $3!

Drive a 1990 Subaru Legacy 2wd! (Oversteer saved my life at 16 years of age by allowing the rear quarter panel to slam into the tree at 75mph instead of the front bumper!)

You've also never driven a 98+ Dodge Intrepid ES with non summer performance tires (chassis was tuned with good ol' Goodyear Eagle GA's, anything more is a fun killer). They handle completely neutrally at the limit with the slightest bit of 100% controllable, unable to disturb (floor it, slam on the brakes, lift off the throttle, keep the throttle half down, et al), tiny bit of oversteer.

2009 Malibu LTZ 4-cylinders are remarkably Intrepid in their handling as well, though I think they might either spin out or understeer a lot with Stabilitrac turned off...still feels like mild, fun, easy to control oversteer from the driver's seat with Stabilitrac on...

I better say that Suzy the Subaru also saved my brother's life that day...(named by the previous owner that cried when selling her).

The grocer wrote: "Shouldn't it be compared to a 335xi (sedan or coupe)? In which case the BMW comes in cheaper but I think that's without leather (which is standard on the Audi) and who knows what else."

No. Audi won't build a RWD car. Why penalize your car with AWD if you don't have to? A BMW 335i with RWD is a legit comparo because Audi refuses to put anything but its craptastic AWD system in cars. Base S5 to base 335i the 335i walks away.

Just because Audi hamstrings its cars that doesn't mean you must dumb down a BMW with AWD.

It shouldn't be compared to X drive because it's inferior.

"Audi refuses to put anything but its craptastic AWD system in cars"

That's both an uneducated and completely false statement. There are Audis available with FWD, and Audis mechanical Torsen-based Quattro system is one of the best in the business - as it should be, benefiting from decades of development. While I'm not a big fan of the Haldex-based Quattro system, it holds its own if tuned correctly.

I find it funny that the BMW fanboys always come out of the woodwork and downplay AWD (in general), when their beloved company itself recognized the practical and marketing importance of offering the option in their sedans (albeit a bit late in the game).

tryan, This meant as a slam that they refuse to put RWD in cars. You either go base and get FWD or in their performance models you're stuck with AWD. On the S5 it's not an option.

We OWN a FWD Audi. It's biggest failing: FWD. Second biggest: poor build quality. Third biggest problem: Audi dealers/lack of warranty coverage.

Audi's Quattro just isn't fun. To each his own but with my money the Q is lame. And their FWD, when available, isn't really worth anything.

For the cost the S5 is a ripoff.

Coyote:

When you put the same interior in almost every model you make over the course of 4 years I would say a design is stale. No other automaker except BMW seems to make so few incremental changes to interior design year to year. I dont want a 2010 Q5 to have the same interior as a 2005 A6. On top of that Audi's current interior scheme is just OK. Nothing spectacular. I find the interiors of the CTS and the S80 to be just as high quality but more interesting looking. Same applies to the XF. I do feel Audi interiors are less dull than BMW interiors though.

The S5 is not a failure because it doesn't handle as well as a 3 series. Its a larger, heavier car with reflexes that are less sharp. The 3 series might have higher handling limits but the S5 is capable enough for most drivers. Its better looking than the 3 series and far more exclusive. If you can afford a 335i coupe you can afford an S5.

Why drive an Audi?

So you can say "Ok boys, let's fire up the Quattro"

^^

That's effing lame.

So disappointing. I was hoping the S5 would be better.

Good review.

"That's effing lame."

Not as lame as actually writing out "effing" in a post

I guess I'll have to go against the grain with regards to the s5's looks. Personally, I don't think its that good looking. Decent looking for a sedan yes, but compared to styling of other coupes, it is a major Fail. Tell me its half as good looking as an 8yr old m3 coupe and I shall laugh.

You BMW guys are killing me. The latest 3 series cars are as bland looking and common as most Japanese econo sedans. For every one Honda Civic on the road, I may see two 3 Series! Most 3 Series drivers have them because prior to the 1 Series, it was the least expensive way to get into a BMW. Do you really think that 90% of BMW owners care that with RWD, they can kick the rear end out in the curves?! 90% of those owners buy them as status symbols, and not for extreme performance. I never see a BMW owner pushing the capabilities of their cars on the road. In fact, the 3 Series I tend to see on the road the most is the lower performing 328!

The Audi S5 is a beautiful coupe... much better looking than any 3 Series coupe, and it's not as common on the road (yet). As an Audi owner, I can say their attention to detail is impeccable, and I've owned a variety of cars from the US, Japan and Germany, and so have my friends. Obviously, anyone purchasing a S5 can afford either a 335i, 335ix or an M3. Some folks want to be sure they have done all the right things to be in the club. A 3 Series is a requirement for the status seeking club. But really... is the 3 Series much of a status symbol when they are in reach of anyone shopping for a fully loaded Honda Accord?