2008 Pontiac G8 GT: The Words Between The Numbers

I don't think the GXP is worth the extra money for the slight gain in performance. I think the GT does just fine (lack of a manual transmission aside). Between the GT and Evo, I think it comes down to whether you want crazy, boy-racer extreme, or understated (kinda) more sophisticated family sedan with the ability to have fun too. At that point, it is simply different strokes for different folks. I do think the cost is a big downer for the Evo though. That's pretty hard to justify.

G8 GT or GXP. As much as the Evo may be faster and more hardcore, the interior room of the G8 is much better. I'd rather take a family sedan that's not as eye-catching as opposed to a pocket rocket that can get me in trouble.

What a sad sad pair. Pontiac is definitely dead & Mitsu is probably on way to being dead (almost)

I would take the G8 in a heartbeat. The Mitsu just seems like a car that a kid would get, and piss other people off with a loud muffler.

Plus, I test drive the G8 GXP yesterday, and I was able to beat an M3, and Cayman S. That is a definite confidence booster.

The G8 GT would be my choice. I haven't actually driven an Evo, but it seems a bit too boy-racer for my tastes. I like the somewhat more adult presentation of the G8, although I do wish there was a hood scoop delete option. I don't think that the GXP is worth the extra money for the relatively small power gain over the GT. I find that I have difficulty finding stretches of road where I can take advantage of the perfomance of the G8 GT (my wife's car), so I don't think that I would ever have a chance to notice the additional performance offered by the Evo. Also, I think that the G8 GT with the 18" wheels provides a very comfortable daily driver while still having plenty of grip to let you know that it is a sport sedan.

As an aside, one would be hard-pressed to perform a wicked burnout with the Evo, whereas IL staff have demonstrated repeatedly that the G8 is quite capable in that arena.

I'd be leaning toward the Evo. I understand what the G8 is all about, but I like that the Evo is more unique (well, at least in Southern Ontario). Also, the AWD would be nice.

The price difference makes the G8 pretty tempting though.

If the G8 GT had a manual, this wouldn't be a contest. But it doesn't, so it is. I love my G8 GT, and while I respect the superior performance (both in a line and around corners) of the GXP and Evo, both the GXP and Evo are a good deal more expensive (and sadly, the Evo is too 'ricer' for me as well), so I'll take the G8 GT, thanks.

The Evo is the wrong competitor here. It should be a G37 sedan. A G8GT with leather/sunroof lists for almost $35K. For that kind of money is there really anybody in their right mind that would choose the Pontiac over the G37?!? Or a 2 year old 335i for that matter? (Admittedly a smaller car.)

These two aren't competitors. That said, I'll take the Aussie built Pontiac over the S--tsubishi. I don't care if they re-did the suspension, it's still a Lancer. Period. Lame.

@mikeolan

I wonder what your reaction it would be if someone said 'I don't care how great G8 is, it is still a Pontiac crapbox'....

No question the G8. I think the Evo would be a blast for a year or so, but there is no way I could deal with it commuting back and forth between LA and San Jose, nor could I put up with its atrocious ride on the pot-hole riddled 101 or 880. The G8's comfortable seats and spacious cabin also make a lot more sense for a family man.

cw910, me. I did it and have no regrets what-so-ever.

That's just as pointless, loaded, and biggoted, a question.

I might have waited for the GXP though. What I really find interesting about that car is the stiffer suspension, wish that was optional on the GT. As for the manual, I live in a heavily urbanized area, would have been nice, but not missed.

EVO.

It's not even close.

I respect the Evo for what it is and for what it can accomplish however $40K for a high performance economy based compact is simply not happening for me. If it was built like a $30K+ car I would be more interested, however its not. Id take the GXP 6MT.

If forced to take one of the three, I'd take the G8 GXP.

G8 GXP... 6 speed manual, V8, roomy 4 door. What else has to be said?

I jst did a little tally and of the 16 cars that I have owned over my lifetime, exactly 50% were manual transmissions.

In the past the manual transmissions had both a fuel economy and performance advantage over a stick shift, but as automatics have improved the difference is practically nil. Sure it feels macho shifting a manual transmission car, but with modern automatics you can achieve the same performance while concentrating on what's going on around you.

And when you are stuck in a traffic jam, I sure don't miss having to let out the clutch, move five feet, push in the clutch, stop, let out the clutch, move five more feet, push in the clutch, stop (repeat for the next 20 or so minutes).

That being said, I would and did take the G8 GT over the Mitsubushi. Although fast the EVO is still a compact car that looks like a $15K Lancer. To extract the performance that it is capable of, you still have to rev the piss out of it, and that makes one just look plain silly. With the G8 GT, you have quiet power that never feels strained. Not many people ride around turning over 5500 RPM from stop light to stop light.

To cw910, the G37 is a smaller car with gawdawful looks. I paid $8K less than your $35K list price for a G8 GT. But the most telling example is that tonight, coming out of a restaruant, the owner of a Nissan drove out of his way to drive past my G8 GT to look at the car before turning around and leaving the parking lot. I doubt he would have done that had a G37 had been parked there.

"the G37 is a smaller car with gawdawful looks...But the most telling example is that tonight, coming out of a restaruant, the owner of a Nissan drove out of his way to drive past my G8 GT to look at the car before turning around and leaving the parking lot."

Crowds gather around car wrecks all the time; doesn't mean they're beautiful sights to behold.

I'd have to take a G8. Yeah, I'm looking at buying a G8 GXP with the manual, so perhaps I'm biased. But there are three reasons I'd go with the G8.

1. Interior room. The G8 is a larger car with more room to spare. If I'm going to be toting people or cargo, that'll come in handy. And for as much as these cars cost, having one car that can do all is a very helpful thing because buying a second for hauling is off the table!

2. Interior quality. From the pics I've seen of the interior of the Lancer, I'm not impressed with the layout of the interior; and, unless Mitsubishi has gone to lengths to change it, it's still based upon an econo-car. This means it's probably something like the interior of my current 2004 Mazda6: a blend of soft-touch materials that ooze quality and hard, shiny plastics that make you cry on the inside. The G8's interior, meanwhile, surprises me when I sit inside it. The leather is soft and well-stitched, most surfaces are soft-touch, the buttons all silently slide, and most surfaces don't give when pressed upon. If I was paying $40k for a car, I'd at least want the interior to feel like it was worth that. I'm sure that the Lancer handles like a bat outta the other place, but dealing with its econo-car interior at that price point would be a soul-sapper.

3. That V8 roar. For my next car, I've made two simple rules for myself. First, a manual is a must. Second, six or greater cylinders only. A turbo four can sound decent. But it will never have the authoritative GROWL of a well-tuned V8. There's also turbo lag to consider. A V8's just going to feel less highly strung; less like a kid high on meth running on a hamster wheel under your hood. Of course, if there was an available compromise of a twin-turbo inline six, we'd be in business!

Turbocharged sedan? Yes plz.

The G8 has spotty build quality.

EVO for me. The G8 is a two ton ricer with fake hoodscopes, intended for fat lazy people. I need something that gets my blood racing, not make me puke.

And the reason the EVO costs more is because it has a lot of tecnology, like the dual clutch transmission. Lets see a Pontiac have that and still have a 30K price tag. And more importantly, the EVO can take corners.

"Crowds gather around car wrecks all the time; doesn't mean they're beautiful sights to behold."

Exactly! and... LOL!

By cx7loverAuthor
....
"The G8 has spotty build quality."

Not in my experience.
- Ray
Driving a 2009 G8 GT - not at nearly 7,000 miles...

ace47: EVO for me. The G8 is a two ton ricer with fake hoodscopes, intended for fat lazy people. I need something that gets my blood racing, not make me puke.

FYI the hood scoupes on the GT, although not for intake manifold cold air, are open, and you don't see them from the steering wheel.

And what is it with that big wing on the EVO? My guess is that you are 16 years old and drool when a rice burner has a big wing and a fart can muffler passes by. Like that big wing keeps the back end on the ground.

Actually the EVO makes me wanta puke. After all who wants to drive around in a vehicle that looks like the owner spent all his disposable income ordering out of the JC Whitney accessory catalog!

rayainsw

Read the post a few above this one.

kingfish4

This is real automotive engineering.

www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2008/20e_08.pdf

Not like American/Australian cars were they don't seem think of aerodynamics when that build their so called performance cars.

Oh and I don't want to here a response that sounds like a 8 year old who just learned how to use bad language.

Simple: a G8 GT with a manual. Better yet, a G8 GXP with a manual for the same price as the Evo. I much prefer a traditional manual over a DSG. I also much prefer the burly torque, low-end grunt, and sound of a pushrod V-8 over a tiny little turbo 4-banger. The AWD of the Evo is nice, but I don't off-road rally race my cars, and I already own a 4WD vehicle for foul weather so I don't really care. I like the look and size of the G8 much better than the Evo. Finally, I prefer the G8's chassis that is based on a real substantial car, and not a modified econobox (Lancer).

JMHFO: EVOs make great open-track toys, but I would never have one as my daily driver. I've seen too many little spam cans crushed beyond recognition over the years to trust my life to one; you just never know when your number will come up and an eighteen-wheeler crosses over the center divider.

The G8 GT or GXP are more to my liking for daily driver status. I'm disappointed they don't offer a manual trans in the base and GT models, but I can understand GM's motives for the way they build and price these cars. Let's just hope GM does the right thing and gives the G8 a Bowtie badge in the future.

BTW, the GT model gets the nod for commuter duty. You get the benefit of Active Fuel Management for (reportedly) 26~28 mpg on the highway, but then you also have the option of adding a Superchips Cortex tuner to make it run neck and neck with a stock GXP (while keeping GM's powertrain warranty intact).

"The G8 has spotty build quality."

And Mitsubishi's have a good reputation for high quality, durability and reliability?

Ill take the G8 GXP.

For me, I went for the MR. Where I live, you can survive with a RWD vehicle...until the snow falls and then you're in for a hellish time (even if you have snow tires). The MR provides me with year-round fun and performance and, to me, that's about all you can really ask for. Also, the MR is my second car so, if I need something a little more "practical" I have an A6 2.7T (that I will never depart with), and, for the times I really need something with a wide range of capabilities, I go for my Cayenne GTS.

Can you see the similarities? AWD, Manual Transmissions, and serious performance all around. But that's just me. Different strokes...

It does come down to personal needs. I test drove both and loved the feel of the v8 in the Pontiac, but the interior turned me off and my needs (wants) are more handling based. I wanted a car that corners like a slot car. The Evo MR interior isn't luxury by any stretch, but the seat quality, wheel feel, and overall build quality just felt more solid to me, and the cornering ability is out of this world. It's a poor mans M3. Going on a year and I smile every time I get in it. The Caddy add sums it up for me "When you turn your car on, does it return the favor", and the MR does it for me. Could do without the boy racer looks of that wing, being a 40+, but I'll deal with it as a trade for the fun!

"And what is it with that big wing on the EVO? My guess is that you are 16 years old and drool when a rice burner has a big wing and a fart can muffler passes by. Like that big wing keeps the back end on the ground."

The EVOs big wing actually does increase downforce. It is a must on both the track and straight line racing. So you see, it is functional.

What purpose does your hoodscope have? None. The G8 is overweight and underperforming, with a joke of an engine whose only purpose is to make a loud noise, another standard ricer feature.

Since you were kind enough to guess my age, my guess is that you are a 40year old and bought your G8 as a midlife crises and now try picking up chicks half your age, making sure you keep a couple of vials of viagra in your G8s dashboard IF you get lucky.

And to any idiot who tries to justify the EVOs higher price tag, the double clutch transmission and the Recaros more than make up for the price difference. That and the functional wing and the new engine and the legendary AWD system AND the fact it can destroy a 911 around the track. Try that in a 30K "muscle" car.

"What purpose does your hoodscope have? None. The G8 is overweight and underperforming, with a joke of an engine whose only purpose is to make a loud noise, another standard ricer feature."

The hood scoops are typical Pontiac in that they're there for appearance and not for function, yes. I've photoshopped them out before, though, and in my opinion the hood looks a little plain without them. That's a personal preference matter, though. There are more tasteful and functional ways to do hood scoops just as there are more tasteful and functional ways to do wings. Let's agree to disagree on this one.

That said, I must take issue with your assertion that the G8's engine is a joke. The L76 in the GT is a 6.0-liter V8 which cranks out an impressive 365 HP and 381 lb-ft of torque on 87-grade gasoline while still offering 24 miles to the gallon on the highway courtesy of cylinder deactivation. That's a pretty impressive feat. Try matching those numbers in the Evo on 87. The engine in the GXP is, of course, a Corvette LS-series engine. 'Nuf said.

Overweight? It's as large as a Dodge Challenger or Charger, lighter, handles better, and still very comfortably seats four or five adults for a long trip. 9 reviews out of 10, Edmunds included, note that the car also drives smaller than it is. While I realize that your post was largely made defensively, the G8 has earned plenty of kudos for the way it handles. So has the Evo, obviously, but the G8 can hold its own.

That said, loud noise is not a standard ricer feature. Tinny, popping exhaust produced by a four-banger piped through a pop-can muffler is a standard ricer feature. Put the right exhaust setup on a G8 GT or especially the GXP and there is no comparison. Crank up the volume on both a four-banger and a V8 and it's the V8 that will leave you wanting more. That's not rice. After all, you wouldn't call the unholy roar of the ZR1, or the siren song of a Ferrari, "ricey", would you? Unless you're talking about a Subaru boxer four, a V8 will win the audio comparison every time.

"Since you were kind enough to guess my age, my guess is that you are a 40year old and bought your G8 as a midlife crises and now try picking up chicks half your age, making sure you keep a couple of vials of viagra in your G8s dashboard IF you get lucky."

And I'm a 20-something-year-old who loves the utility of a sedan, the power and sound of a V8, and longs for the torque-steer-free feeling of rear-wheel-drive. As I mentioned above, given the price of any of these cars, such a vehicle would also need to last me should I ever start a family. The G8 is better suited to that, in my opinion, than the Evo.

"And to any idiot who tries to justify the EVOs higher price tag, the double clutch transmission and the Recaros more than make up for the price difference. That and the functional wing and the new engine and the legendary AWD system AND the fact it can destroy a 911 around the track."

DCT? Sure, I'll pay more for that. AWD? Sure! Recaros and functional wing? Sorry, I'm not paying thousands more for a wing or a special set of seats.

"Try that in a 30K "muscle" car."

The Evo and G8 compete in different spaces, but the G8 is still no slouch. Edmunds recently compared the G8 GXP to the new M3, and the numbers in a straight line are almost a dead heat. A GXP test mule made it around the Nurburgring in 8:30, as fast as the last-generation M5 and only 13 seconds behind the current generation M5. Not bad for a car costing 33% or 50% less than the BMW's.

@ eidolways, he's a biggot and a troll.

I wouldn't bother explaining myself to him. Some people don't understand the appeal of the full-size, rear wheel, V8, market and that's okay.

To me there's something so right about a 4000 pound rocket that doubles as a daily driver. For what it's worth I'm 23, and I own one.

Its quite funny when someone flames up against anything said about a G8. Pontiac has gone down and all this flaming won't bring it back. The hoodscopes a ricer feature, deal with it.

"There are more tasteful and functional ways to do hood scoops just as there are more tasteful and functional ways to do wings."

Actually for basic sedans, there are not. You either give it agressive front, rear fenders or a spoiler. Or you make it weigh two tons, that keeps the back end of the ground.

"That said, I must take issue with your assertion that the G8's engine is a joke. The L76 in the GT is a 6.0-liter V8 which cranks out an impressive 365 HP and 381 lb-ft of torque on 87-grade gasoline while still offering 24 miles to the gallon on the highway courtesy of cylinder deactivation."

With all that hp and torque, is it faster than an EVO? NO. Does the extra torque help the G8 shoot out of corners faster? NO. Iam neither a fan of LS series engines, nor am I a fan of Challengers or Chargers to think them good enough to be compared to some actual sports cars. With a 6L V8, you'd better hope it makes more than 300hp, regardless of what gas it uses.

"A GXP test mule made it around the Nurburgring in 8:30, as fast as the last-generation M5 and only 13 seconds behind the current generation M5. Not bad for a car costing 33% or 50% less than the BMW's."

Regardless of price, a 13 second gap is a lot on the track.

"Edmunds recently compared the G8 GXP to the new M3, and the numbers in a straight line are almost a dead heat."

The G8 is definately for you then. And do you see me trying to justify a BMWs price tag? I think they are overpriced anyway. And if you are talking performance strictly, note that the M3 does the same work with 2/3s displacement and about a 100lb-ft torque deficit. Sorry but Iam just not impressed.

"Sorry, I'm not paying thousands more for a wing or a special set of seats."

Try getting a set of decent aftermarket Recaros and see how much they cost. If straight lines and burnouts are your biggest priority, you don't need the Recaros anyway.

You have so far made a decent arguement, but since these two cars are being compared, tecnology costs money and the EVO has that in abundance. Tecnology wise, is the price justifiable? Yeah it is. Especially since it can beat a Porche. Do a proper comparison tecnology and performance wise and it will be the G8 that comes off lesser deal.

And the engine noise is a by product of displacement. A V8 doesn't make a nice noise because it is a V8, it makes a loud noise because it has a higher diplacement than a V6 or a a four pot. It is not some miracle of engineering (I do wish the EVO sounded better, doesn't mean it would justify buying the G8 though). In many ways, a loud engine is much like a coffee can muffler or a big wing on a Civic that has no engine mods. Is it necessary? No. Does it make you shift faster or take corners harder? No. Does it in any way affect performance? NO!

Sorry, I guage cars by performace, not the engine noise. And performance wise, the EVO has the right stuff in heaps.

And BTW, my age comment was for kingfish4 only, a response to his generic comment.

"I wouldn't bother explaining myself to him. Some people don't understand the appeal of the full-size, rear wheel, V8, market and that's okay."

Sure I do. I just don't believe in domestic junk.

"To me there's something so right about a 4000 pound rocket that doubles as a daily driver. For what it's worth I'm 23, and I own one."

Given by your above statement and your username, I would never have guessed.

Thats a trolling statement.

"With all that hp and torque, is it faster than an EVO? NO. Does the extra torque help the G8 shoot out of corners faster? NO."

And that would be a matter of weight and drive-train setup. An AWD with less power will typically be faster out of the gate simply because it puts its power down to the ground in a manner that maximizes traction. Watching Subies toast brutish monsters at a drag race is always fun. In that respect, the EVO can (and does) command a horsepower deficit, yet manages to make up for it with sheer traction.

"I am neither a fan of LS series engines, nor am I a fan of Challengers or Chargers to think them good enough to be compared to some actual sports cars. With a 6L V8, you'd better hope it makes more than 300hp, regardless of what gas it uses."

The Charger has been on the market longer and is a noticeably large car, hence why I compared them. I do not believe the quality to be comparable, as the interior of the Charger is drab and simple, and the chassis is as heavy as the outdated E-class it inherits its platform from. That said, the SRT8 versions of these cars ain't half-bad, though I would suggest that whether or not they qualify as "sports cars" depends entirely on how one defines the term.

"Regardless of price, a 13 second gap is a lot on the track."

If the track were a mile in length, I'd agree wholeheartedly. In this case, this is the Nurburgring Nordschleife. It's 17 miles in length. That's not too shabby.

"The G8 is definately for you then."

Hey, if I could afford an M5, M6, or Porsche 911, I'd go for it. The G8 is for me because I want a compromise of interior quality, performance, and size.

"And do you see me trying to justify a BMWs price tag? I think they are overpriced anyway."

Though rare is the accusation that you don't get what you pay for!

"And if you are talking performance strictly, note that the M3 does the same work with 2/3s displacement and about a 100lb-ft torque deficit. Sorry but Iam just not impressed."

Don't forget the several-hundred pound weight difference (G8's heavier by about 250 lbs), differing types of transmissions, and also the G8's unfortunately sized tires. Considering that the G8 is actually somewhat handicapped, albeit by relatively outdated or poorly chosen tech, the fact that it keeps up is a feat. And at a fraction of the price! ... OK, a large fraction, but a fraction nonetheless!

"You have so far made a decent arguement, but since these two cars are being compared, tecnology costs money and the EVO has that in abundance. Tecnology wise, is the price justifiable? Yeah it is. Especially since it can beat a Porche. Do a proper comparison tecnology and performance wise and it will be the G8 that comes off lesser deal."

That depends on the kind of tech you want. If you want the latest in high-performance AWD and tranny tech, I agree. If you're looking for an investment in suspension tech that produces a good trade-off between performance and daily livability, I'd give to the nod to the Pontiac. Each is respectable in its own right.

"And the engine noise is a by product of displacement. A V8 doesn't make a nice noise because it is a V8, it makes a loud noise because it has a higher diplacement than a V6 or a a four pot. It is not some miracle of engineering (I do wish the EVO sounded better, doesn't mean it would justify buying the G8 though)."

Yes and no. It's not just a product of displacement. A 6.0-liter inline-four will not sound like a 6.0-liter V8. Part of what really makes the difference is the displacement /per cylinder/ with an appropriate number of cylinders. I'll agree that it's not a miracle of engineering. Bu a well-tuned large-displacement, high-cylinder-count engines will still hold the crown. Ferrari V12, anyone?

"Sorry, I guage cars by performace, not the engine noise. And performance wise, the EVO has the right stuff in heaps."

I partially agree with you here. If all I cared about was raw performance, I'd select the EVO. But to me, cars are also about the experience. Being able to floor the gas pedal and burn your rear tires to a crisp while the sound is masked by the roar of the engine is one heck of an experience!

"Don't forget the several-hundred pound weight difference (G8's heavier by about 250 lbs), differing types of transmissions, and also the G8's unfortunately sized tires."

Sounds more like an excuse but given the price factor of the G8, I'll let it pass. I believe the "ring is 12.9 miles by the way. The torque advantage of the G8 should offset the M3s weight advantage since more torque in a wider range is more helpful around a track. I believe the G8 gearbox has been praised so I don't think its a good excuse but again, the price factor is in its advantage.

"A 6.0-liter inline-four will not sound like a 6.0-liter V8."

Probably not but since I have yet to hear a 6L four pot, I don't think it will be that different.

"Bu a well-tuned large-displacement, high-cylinder-count engines will still hold the crown. Ferrari V12, anyone?"

Exactly! well sort off. A proper engine with a high output per liter appeals more to me, which may be the reason Iam not a fan of two valve,6-7L V8s. A NA engine with a high redline is what I consider essential in cars that don't use forced induction. In that regard, I prefer the Honda S2000, the M3, M5, the GT3 or as you said, the Ferrari with a V8 or V12. In the same manner, I like the Ferrari V12 over the Lamborghini V10 and even the V12, simply because Audi engines use Direct injection. I prefer NA, port fuel injection and anything upwards of 100hp/liter. I consider a car with a well engineered engine to increase the driving experience, much like you say the sound does for you.

Sure you can make torque an issue in the M3 makes less torque than the G8 but anyone who has driven the M3 will hardly be complaining about the torque, especially with the burnouts that car can do. Sure, these engines run on premium but I consider myself enough of an enthusiast not to be stringy over gas prices.

Good discussion anyways...

I still think the EVO is the better deal though. Haha.

"Exactly! well sort off. A proper engine with a high output per liter appeals more to me, which may be the reason Iam not a fan of two valve,6-7L V8s."

Your entire post here is littered with little jabs at large-bore V8's. I am amused. :P You imply that a large-bore engine is not a proper engine!

Keep in mind, though, that horsepower is simply torque times RPM. A "high output per liter" engine typically means an engine that has less torque overall, but reaches it's peak output at a very high RPM. The E92 M3's engine is a good example: 414 HP at 8300 RPM with only 295-lb ft of torque at a peak of 3900 RPM. As you increase the revolutions of an engine, each stroke of the piston becomes slightly less efficient. But that's OK, because you're doing it more often. So the horsepower peak is peak power per stroke at a given RPM. This is why different cams and the like move the peak around.

"A NA engine with a high redline is what I consider essential in cars that don't use forced induction. In that regard, I prefer the Honda S2000, the M3, M5, the GT3 or as you said, the Ferrari with a V8 or V12. In the same manner, I like the Ferrari V12 over the Lamborghini V10 and even the V12, simply because Audi engines use Direct injection. I prefer NA, port fuel injection and anything upwards of 100hp/liter."

And you'll note that in nearly every car you list, the torque figure lags the horsepower figure, sometimes by a good margin. They've chosen to go with a lower displacement and sacrifice gobs of torque at a low RPM to gain a higher redline and so enable a higher horsepower figure. That's how 100 HP/liter is obtained.

I personally wouldn't want an S2000 because the gearing would be designed to keep it running at very high RPM's to keep the engine close to the peak. That kind of gearing, where you have to frequently shift to keep the engine near the power band, is frustrating to me.

"I consider a car with a well engineered engine to increase the driving experience, much like you say the sound does for you."

I agree that a well-engineered engine improves the driving experience, but I would disagree with the assertion that a large-bore, low-redline engine is by nature poorly engineered.

GM's LS-series engines make a trade-off that differs from those you listed above. By increasing displacement and, so, internal moving mass of the engine, they reduce the redline the engine is capable of. With the other associated trade-offs, the horsepower peak also falls. The trick is that you gain torque, and your horsepower peak occurs at a lower RPM. Though keep in mind that the LS3 redlines at 6500 RPM and the LS7 redlines at a ridiculous 7000 RPM. Both numbers are still higher than the redline of the engine in my current Mazda6, a 2.3-liter four-pot, despite the fact that the GM engines each displace more than twice the volume of my car's engine.

My love of the sound of a well-tuned engine also extends to some of those you listed above. The sound of the M3, M5, and Porsche 911 GT3 all make me grin. But I also appreciate the bellowing roar of a large-bore V8 like those in the G8 GXP and Corvette ZR1.

So I generally love the sound of a well-tuned engine, but my love wanes for four-pots.

And yes, good discussion!

"Your entire post here is littered with little jabs at large-bore V8's. I am amused. :P You imply that a large-bore engine is not a proper engine!"

Not at all. Iam just saying those types of engines are not for me.

"Keep in mind, though, that horsepower is simply torque times RPM. A "high output per liter" engine typically means an engine that has less torque overall, but reaches it's peak output at a very high RPM. The E92 M3's engine is a good example: 414 HP at 8300 RPM with only 295-lb ft of torque at a peak of 3900 RPM. And you'll note that in nearly every car you list, the torque figure lags the horsepower figure, sometimes by a good margin."

I think you may have not read my full comment (I thought it was rather long myself).

" I personally wouldn't want an S2000 because the gearing would be designed to keep it running at very high RPM's to keep the engine close to the peak. That kind of gearing, where you have to frequently shift to keep the engine near the power band, is frustrating to me."

Thats what makes it so darn engaging to me. Personally the only thing I would change about that car would be the accelerator, which seemed a bit to senstive for me. And it should be no surprise that only 295lb-ft would be available from a 4L, in fact displacement wise, its quite impressive. I've driven the 2007 M3, a GT3(forgot which year) and a 360 Modena(which my friend later totalled). Call it my imagination but I thought all were more engaging than the few pushrods I've sampled and Iam no badge snob, unless someone tells me to buy Detroit(that was a jab).

" Watching Subies toast brutish monsters at a drag race is always fun."

Absolutely agree. I had an 10second 06 STi, street legal.

I think what I wrote before sums up my idea of an ideal engine.

" A NA engine with a high redline is what I consider essential in cars that don't use forced induction."

To break it down, my first choice would be a turbo engine, medium displacement with loads of torque or a high revving monster. Looking at it that way, large-bore, low-redline engines don't fit in my preference. I get my torque from turbo engines and my high revving requirements is satisfied by high output low displacement engines.