2009 Nissan GT-R: Bargain Supercar Gets Expensive

This is something I've been saying about the GT-R for awhile...in too many ways, it depends on exotic maintenance and dealer support. What happens to your GT-R when Nissan stops supporting it, or, at the very least, it gets harder and harder to service it? Your car will be made prematurely obsolete.

wow, thats like more than a ferrari... and you got a discount.

Can you get a composition breakdown of the trans fluid from Blackstone or similar lab?

I'm sure you can find a reasonably priced alternative fluid.

That is a scary number! Maybe you can get a GT-R bailout from the government.

That's how Nissan makes money, charging through the nose for service. This type of service can't be that expensive on other supercars. Or this frequent.

Got to love this "bargain" supercar. The initial price is low but the service intervals and costs are similar to that of a European sports car. If the car costs $75k and is sold at Nissan dealers why does it cost as much as a Ferrari to maintain? Lets not forget, you are at a run of the mill Nissan dealer while shelling out these huge sums of money.

i predict many used GTR's soon... lol.

While steep, that total is perfectly inline with the maintenance costs of a Ferrari, Lambo, or Aston. However, if one looks at a comparable Porsche or Corvette they will see that those cars are VASTLY less expensive to service (they also demand service less often). Then again the GT-R is a totally irrational purchase (sure it's stupid fast and impossibly well balanced but it's also poorly constructed and rides like a subway car) so irrational maintenance costs should come as no surprise. As long as buyers go in knowing they are NOT getting an all around bargain the love affair will not be interrupted.

it costs MORE than a ferrari to maintain by my count...

@ mercedesfan: Sir, this is the internet, there's no place for well thought out, rational statements here.

Remember though, this car came out gunning for the 911 Turbo, not for Ferrari or Lamborghini.

Also for those who aren't quite sure how outrageous this price is, EXPENSIVE Automatic Transmission Fluid costs about 10-bucks per quart.
-mike

I truly hope that was sarcasm CX7lover, and if it wasn't please pass whatever it is that you're smoking.

Why would Nissan devise such a scheme that would potentially alienate their customer base and garner negative publicity? I'm not a fan of this car for many reasons, and I'm probably the last person that is willing to vouch for it but that just doesn't make much sense.

Here are my guesses as to what's in the oil that makes it so expensive:

1. Platinum
2. Diamonds
3. Plutonium
4. Profit

On the bright side, you somehow managed to save $240. 10% that no one else is ever going to convince their dealership to trim.

"Hon, I got some good news and bad news."

"What is it?"

"Well, the appointment for the car went as planned."

"Then what's the problem?"

"I had to sell our son on eBay for the transmission fluid."

"i predict many used GTR's soon... lol."

But what will the re-sale value be?

People who can afford this car new might pay huge bills like this but the used car market won't.

Add to that a transaxle that cost $22,000 to replace and is known to be weak and I predict a lot of owners will be upset when they go to trade in another year or so.

This is crazy. For God's sake its a Nissan. 2 grand for service and the car in the next bay is a Sentra. At least with a Vette you're going to pay close to the same thing for service as the lady with the Malibu. The tranny fluid costs over a 100.00 a quart and it still can't protect it from self destructing.

What a joke. This car was all about initial road test 0-60 numbers and that's it. The price jumped significantly for this years model too so the first year run was a hoax of advertising and most people brought into it.

Well, that sure makes the $19/qt Ford(of Germany) Synthetic GL-4 I run in my Mazdaspeed's transaxle look cheap.

The GT-R oil is derived from the blubber in baby whales.

On a side note, nissan needs to provide free maintenance for the first 3 years

I can sort of understand the price considering it is a supercar, but that only confirms (in my case) that my "realistic" dream car (a C6 vette in any guise) is still a wise choice. Also, I wonder how that compares to the cost of fluid in other "flappy paddle" gearboxes, hell I'd like to know how it compares with the cost of the fluid in Formula 1 cars.

And I'd hope that ATF cointains either one or several of the following:

a)Something that can/will give you a hideous disease if you touch it with your bare skin.
b)Contains hormones extracted from tigers, cheetas and leopards, extracted in ways that would not be nice to write in this forum.
c)Is some sort of concoction taken from the DNA of great racing drivers of the past.

For sake of comparison, I wonder what the similar interval routine maintenance on a ZR1 Vette entails/costs.

Just confirms to me that I can never own own. Nope. This is an exotic car, and it is beyond my pay grade. Still, I'm happy to aspire to "old school" inexpensive performance cars like the Corvette or 370Z. Sure, they are a tad slower, but I get to keep my money, and also my kids' college money.

I see you have 18,916 miles on the car. What service interval was this? 15K or 20K?

Also what is is the maintenance intervals on this car?

"I see you have 18,916 miles on the car. What service interval was this? 15K or 20K?

Also what is is the maintenance intervals on this car?"

Bob,
Our maintenance intervals were skewed by the transaxle replacement we had (it never blew up, they were just nervous about something). This is close to our 12,000-mile transmission work.

Services are: 1,000-miles. 6,000-miles, 12,000-miles, 18,000 and so on--every 6K miles or every six-months, whichever is sooner.
-mike

The R8 was way cheaper to maintain than this thing.

Ouch. How much is an expensive service? :)

A $15k service on a Ferrari is quite a bit more (the local dealer down the street charges $8-9k last I checked) but then again, it's a Ferrari and someone's got to keep the dealer in business, since they only sell 5-10 cars per month.

I just never expected this from a Nissan, no matter how good it is. And they still have transmission problems?

Well, time to cross the GT-R off my list. Ferrari's suddenly look more affordable! :)

Our service on the GTR has been less expensive, while still costly, than your experience. The trans fluid cost is definitely ridiculous. Our oil changes have been running $175. I must say these prices are definitely in line with other cars of its performance caliber.

There has been no buyers remorse from 99% of the owners and we all went in with the knowledge the service would be pricey before we bought the car. Look at NAGTROC and you will see discussions of the cost of maintenance before the car arrived in the States.

Sad for you guys that feel it is below you to have to sit with someone that spent one-fifth the price of your car. Mine talk about snobs, ill that guy drives a Sentra by the way where's my latte.

As for Mercedes, yea there quality is up there. Let me check with my father-in-law whose 2 year old S class went up in flames while he was driving it.

The car rocks guys, it works as a daily driver and as a track car. Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette and Viper drivers all run over when you arrive at the track. And all of the instructors ask for rides and come away impressed especially those we let drive it.

"There has been no buyers remorse from 99% of the owners and we all went in with the knowledge the service would be pricey before we bought the car. Look at NAGTROC and you will see discussions of the cost of maintenance before the car arrived in the States."

True. I don't post but I check out what the other GT-R owners are up to on that site frequently. It's a wealth of GT-R info. And none of the owners are as upset about paying $80+/qt for ATF as we are. While it's different if that's your baby, still, that's 8-10 times the price of GOOD ATF...how can it be that expensive!?

-mike

Boxer,

We all agree the price seems ridiculous thats why a bunch of guys are using WillAlls trans fluid which seems to have had some good test results.

I agree that 2K is crazy, but in the perspective of an exotic car, perhaps it's not as bad as it could be. I wonder what an Acura NSX used to cost for similar service.

Would it have made a difference in peoples' expectations if Nissan had sold this car here as an Infiniti?

2k sounds like a good price.
This is a supercar. Poor people aren't suppose to own this.

For the cost of this service visit you could have fielded an entry in the Grassroots Motorsports $2009 challenge, with change to spare for a snack from a vending machine. Just something to think about.

2K on an NSX will get you a timing belt service.

Damn it only costs 9k to service an F430. So cheap.
2k is ridiculous for other supercars. Just ridiculous. How dare Nissan charge 2k for a supercar service.

Looks like the old Razor and Razorblade senario; affordable razor, expensive blades.

Agreed that buyers really need to research the GT-R to make sure they can afford its care and feeding.

What would be interesting is to see somebody convert a GT-R for Rally Racing ! Nissan should have some of that fun.

I spoke too soon:

http://www.gtrblog.com/category/racing/rally-tasmania/

shows GT-R in Rally form !

Wait - didn't you guys recently have the transaxle replaced?

Why would it need new fluid so soon?

Wow, I think your singe dealer service is worth more than my daily driver. This is just maintenance?!

The oil contains the spit of Chuck Norris. Rare indeed.

The GT-R is an exotic car. Not marketed as a daily driver. More like a 5th or 6th car in a six car collection.

So how is 2250 miles per month (27,500 miles per year) representative of the typical mileage that a Porsche 911 GT-3 or Ferrari Modena will see in the hands of the typical enthusiast owner? Most exotics see no more than 2-5K miles of service per year.

That kind of mileage is more representative of police patrol car service.

Edmund's Ford GT saw ONLY 15,000 miles over 36 months (415 miles per month), with nearly $5K spent in maintenance.

And I seem to recall Edmunds spending nearly $5000 in maintenance and repairs to run a Ferrari 308 GTS for only 5,000 miles.

In 21 months Edmunds has racked up 29,000 on their Audi R8. That corresponds to 1350 miles per month, nearly half the monthly mileage the GT-R has accumulated.

Is is so inconceivable that by accumulating 5 times the typical mileage a GT-R will see that wear and maintenance would be accelerated by that factor?

after reading how much that cost, I threw up a little in my mouth..

jdub53084,
You might have acid reflux. They got like Prilosec over the counter to help with that problem.

I'm telling you. In 10 years I'm going to be driving through some backroad in Atco, New Jersey and I'm going see one of these up on blocks in the front yard of a double-wide trailer.

"Look son! See that car? When that car came out it cost nearly $100,000 IF you could even find one. Now look at it."

These cars are going to die a very undignified and inglorious death.

Mike, so every 6K you can expect a $2K (or thereabouts) service bill? Yikes!

Does gold make a good lube?? It MUST have gold in it to be $114/qt.

I like the GT-R, but I just can't see owning one if it's this much of a wallet eater. It's starting to make German cars look inexpensive to maintain. I guess when Nissan performance benchmarked the 911 Turbo, they also benchmarked the 911's maintenance costs too.

I'll stick with my Z06's - the most expensive oil it requires is Mobil 1 regular ATF, at like $8 a quart. In just one service, the GT-R has cost 4 times more in maintenance than 7 years and 50k miles worth of maintenance that my '02 Z06 has required.

Fanboi checking in. I have a GT-R and Im telling you its not that expensive for scheduled service.

YOU GUYS AT EDMUNDS GOT ROBBED!!!!!

1. GT-R tranny fluid can be bought for $57.48 a quart at the nismoshop.com. A savings of $230.00 a 8 quarts needed!

2. GT-R differential fluid can be bought for $41.00 a quart. A savings of $63.00 for the 3 quarts needed.

3. Mobil one synth. oil for the GT-R can be bought for $7.00 a quart. Looks like they charged you 206.00 for an oil change. I paid $159.00 at my Nissan GT-R cert. dealer. Savings=47.00

4. They charged you $115.00 to install filters!?!?
come on, you could of done that yourself.
GT-R air filters can be had for $27.00 each. Micro filters at only $33.00. So a savings of 70.00 on filters alone. plus doing it yourself would saved you a total of $185.00!!!!

So shopping around wouldve of saved you
$525.00!!!!!

You guys need to go to a different dealership.

The GT-R is not that bad to maintain.

Godzilla rules!!!!!!!

For my GTR oil change my dealer charged $78 for parts (oil and filter) + $150 labor. I can't wait for that 12k service! :(

Does anyone know the cost/quart of the ATF for a 911 with PDK or the M3 with DCT? Comparing a Z06's tranny fluid to the GTR's isn't exactly apples to apples.
+1 srlracing. The only thing more rare are his tears.

Im glade i read every comment and not just the first few. At least some people have a better understanding of what it cost for up keep on a Supercar. Yeah it seems crazy for us common folk to pay that for our every day cars but this is not your everyday car. Sure they brand it like its an everyday car and sure you can drive it like an everyday car but you must know you will pay the price for it in the end. This is just another post to help me one day own one, cause its turning off so many more potential buyers. Keep up the great work Edmunds!

A friend of mine pays $2K every time he takes his A8 in for an oil change. That's because they always find something wrong with it. Always.

I would like to know how much an M3 DCT's regular maintenance would be in comparision (if it weren't free for the first 50K).

athens, your comparative costs are wildly misleading. For example, the Ford GT involved replacing SIX tires and a windshield.

The only regularly scheduled maintenance was oil changes, which they chose to do once a year at $300-$350 each. That's a an expensive oil change (for which they were ridiculed), but it beats the heck out of $2000.

Everyone justifying the high price is assuming the GT-R is a supercar.

I'm not sure. I hunch it's really more an improved version of the Dodge Stealth (Mitsu 3000GT). When it came out over a decade ago, I remember people calling it a supercar. AWD, turbo V6, lots of gadgets, overweight... it fills the same description as the GT-R.

As soon as the new glow was gone, it quickly became just an sporty Japanese that costs a lot of money to keep on the road.

You can buy one cheap now unlike real supercars of the 90's. How will the GT-R be remembered in a decade?

That's a crazy price; I bet that oil has Stem Cells in it. Stem Cells from dead fetuses.

GTR owner here...I have to say that is a very disappointing price tag. My 911's (including turbo) never say anywhere near 25% of that service cost. I'm not about to spend that on the GTR.

I think where you got really ripped off (besides the fluid) is in the labor. Assume a $120 labor rate in PRSM. (thats what mine was)

1) $150 for oil change? Wow. That's a 20 min job at most. Let's call it .5. $60

2) $500 labor for trans & diff fluid change? OK, both can be done at the same time by the same person as the oil change. Does the fluid take 4 hours to drain?? I guess the GTR really does defy the laws of physics (and accounting)! I'll give this job 1.5 hrs. That's generous, and on top of the generous .5 for the LOF. $180.

3) $115 for 3 filters. Weellll. I'll give 'em that one as they can sometimes be more involved than you think. But, for an experienced tech, really a .5hr job. $60.

Total labor should be $300, not $817.

Someone else already covered parts...

The oil contains only the finest Fugu on the market. Quite a delicacy! Early transmission problems have all been traced back to the toxins founds in improperly sliced Fugu. Quite dangerous!

"1) $150 for oil change? Wow. That's a 20 min job at most. Let's call it .5. $60"

Not quite. Changing the oil requires removal of some of the carbon underbody tray. It's not a job JiffyLube can handle.

And yes, we could have saved a bit (a lot) of money by bringing our own fluids we bought online and changing the filters ourselves (i mentioned that one earlier), but we, like other GT-R owners-- ones posting on NAGTROC.org and the uber-rich dude who picked his GT-R up right before I got ours-- we haggled a bit and then paid.

It's what I would do if I owned a GT-R.

Also keep this in mind: The trans fluid change only needs to be done every 12-18K miles at a cost somewhere between 7-$1,400 depending on where you buy your ATF. And then a $200(ish) oil change every 6K miles. The Porsche 911 Turbo is $50,000 more expensive than the Premium GT-R. It's going to take a LOT of oil changes to make up that difference.

-mike

Good post Mike.

Fact is when you are buying the GTR you are buying a technological marvel. How else could Nissan spank a car costing 50k more (911 Turbo) than to rinse every bit it could out of it's engineers brains and drop it into the GTR. The maintenance costs are the price GTR owners have to pay for that level of performance and engineering.

Honestly, if you are buying a 80k performance car, you should be smart enough and responsible enough to understand how much it will cost to maintain. You're not buying a Dodge Caliber SRT-4 here.

Did I read that right? the LABOR for the oil change was $150? Do they have to drop the oil pan to change the oil? It really takes 1 1/2 hours to change the oil (assuming $100 hr labor rate)?

"Fact is when you are buying the GTR you are buying a technological marvel. "

Marvel? Hardly. It's called short gearing. Look at the acceleration times above 100mph and you'll the see car run out of breath compared to say, a Z06. The AWD grip allows super short gearing that cannot be used on most conventional RWD cars (would result in lots of wheelspin). Hardly rocket science and quite easy to explain.
In fact, I'd go on to say that the acceleration isn't even that impressive when taken into proper context. The aforementioned Z06 has been able to rip off 3.4 sec sprints to 60 without the continuous torque/automated shifting capabilites of the GT-R nor the AWD launching advantage. Also, the trap speed is always a few mph higher compared to the GT-R even if the times are close. The launching strategy behind the GT-R is conceptually similar to a catapult. It gets a jump out of the gate but physics principals cannot be denied once the stagger closes.

continued from above...

The only unique aspect of the GT-R's acceleration is that no other car has used this configuration before (accept the Bugatti Veyron). AWD + short gearing + continuous torque dual clutch transmission = impressive inital acceleration.

For those who claim the GT-R is a super car, I'd challenge them to look at the acceleration past the 0-60 mark and even beyond the 1/4 mile. If the Z06 did not exist, the numbers for the GT-R would be undeniable as nothing else remotely close in price would be able to match the figures but that is not the reality that some publications try to lead people to believe. Maybe the Z06 isn't as great as a handler (because of the reported spokey at the limit handling) but in terms of acceleration, it's just as fast as the GT-R to 60-100 mph and FASTER than the GT-R in the 1/4 mile and beyond.

The Z06 isnt going to be as fast as the GTR with a RWD layout, at least in terms of 0-60. AWD gives the GTR an automatic advantage to start and then the laws of physics take over and the Z06 finishes the 1/4 mile with the Nissan far behind.

Some people are saying this price is to be expected for a "supercar". This is not a supercar, its a high performance car than can match the performance of some supercars. Same goes for Z06. It may even be hard to say the ZR1 is a true supercar because its a front engined Corvette. Any car you buy at a Nissan dealer is not a supercar. Period. This is a Nissan and thus the cost to maintain should be in the same universe as other Nissan products.

You can talk straightline all you want, the fact is by all accounts the GTR is a more capable all-around car than the ZO6, and that is thanks to it's technology.

If you want to discount the work that went into making an almost 4000lb car quicker around the Nurburgring than 98.5% of the world's production cars, go right ahead.

If you'd like to claim that a car that laps the Nuburgring faster than any Koenigsegg, every Porsche save the Carrera GT, every Mercedes ever made, and every Ferrari save the Enzo, go right ahead.

Some people just decide they hate something and won't be convinced otherwise, but the facts still remain.

brn:

Isn't it "wildly misleading" to suggest that 2250 miles per month in a GT-R, or any car used for civilian purposes is "normal" use? Or that it's normal for owners to use launch control every few days to try to beat the Nissan's performance achievements using professional drivers on closed courses.

Fearing extensive modding and abusive use of this car Nissan is merely minimizing it's financial exposure by having implemented the stringent maintenance policies.

Already the abuse has gotten so out of hand hence the company disabled launch control on the 2010 production, with the mod-reflash for the 2009 cars. Now that the Edmunds GT-R has had it's launch control disabled let's see how many further problems the new transaxle develops.

BTW for items like air and cabin filters the parts and labor charges for the GT-R are about on par for what an Infiniti dealer would charge on a G37.

Who cares... since none of the editors paid for it so it's all rosey and well about the GT-R right? Bargain extoic my arse...

"BTW for items like air and cabin filters the parts and labor charges for the GT-R are about on par for what an Infiniti dealer would charge on a G37."

I used to own a G35 Coupe, and that's exactly why I did all that stuff myself. The only maintenance the dealer did was some oil changes at $39.99 each - worth it considering I had to remove the plastic underbody (aero) cover underneath the engine everytime I had to change the oil and filter, and it had about 40 screws.
Everytime the dealer would ask me if I would like for them to perform the 15k, 20k, or whatever maintenance, I said, no thanks, I do the work myself. They probably hated me, but I didn't care what the dealer thought of me. I knew they were thieves, and they weren't getting my money.

"The oil contains only the finest Fugu on the market. Quite a delicacy! Early transmission problems have all been traced back to the toxins founds in improperly sliced Fugu. Quite dangerous!"

Outstanding! Finally a rational explanation.

stingray 454:

And my dealer still slaps on the Next Oil Service reminder decal that recommends 3 month/ 3000 mile intervals when I put only 7000 miles per year on my G35 coupe and follow Schedule II service intervals.

Still my north suburban Chicago Infiniti dealer recently ran a $19.99 oil service promo.

It sure brought a lot of customers in. To boot they actually have an on site cook that prepares omelettes and crepes for waiting customers and everyone gets their car wash.

Of course they hand you a print out of suggested albeit unnecessary service, which I too decline.

More and more dealers are willing to negotiate labor rates down to $80 per hour, even less.

What I have noticed is that more than a few indy service shops have recently raised their labor rates.

chadwyck- can you read? Your rant was pointless because I already said the Z06 exhibits questionable handling traits. The problem with people like you is that you get so emotional when someone questions the GT-R that you cannot understand that point that was made. The fact is the GT-R is NOT faster than the Z06, period. Swallow and digest it. Some test had the GT-R at 3.3 seconds with VSC disabled and with the new software most are getting 3.4-3.6. Z06s have achieved those numbers consistantly (and with a limited traction launch). IL is the only publication that hasn't been able to get GT-R mataching acceleration times out of the Z06. Check the R&T comparison with the GT-R vs the Z06&911 turbo and you'll see what I mean. You, my friend, need to come to grip with the facts, not me. As far as speed is concerned, overall the GT-R is slower than the Z06 (they are roughly equal to ~ 90-110 mph). As I said before, the GT-R's acceleration would be more impressive if the Z06 did not exist for the same money.

Please explain the technology in the GT-R that I haven't already explained? If anything it's convoluted drivetrain layout is the liability that caused the entire "launch control" fiasco. If you look underneath the car, the way they have configured axles and tranmissions is backward because of limitations of this car's donor platform. It's a front engined car with a rear mounted transaxle via a live torque tube with a parallel driveshaft providing power back to the front of the car. This set-up is just asking for trouble because the torque tube and driveshaft are redundant. This is not "technology," it's compromise. I am not knocking the GT-R, what I am knocking are the people who think this car has some sort of magic that provides "impossible" acceleration. Again, short gearing + awd + dual clutch equals quick accleration (to a point where the excess mass and lack of power reveal themselves as you get above 100 mph which is why I mentioned that likeness to a catapult). Anyone who graduated high school can see why the GT-R accelerates as fast as it does. If you take this personally, than sorry but I'm just listed facts here buddy.

I think it's really funny how people automatically assume now that if a car is Asian, it is automatically going to be reliable and cheap to fix.

Think Again

"Again, short gearing + awd + dual clutch equals quick accleration (to a point where the excess mass and lack of power reveal themselves as you get above 100 mph which is why I mentioned that likeness to a catapult)."

True story.

-mike

Why does how it moves matter? I say it is a supercar. I don't care if you can demonstrate that it is only because of Flintstones footwork. I could see arguing if you could show that it required external forces. Since it all comes from within the bodywork I don't get the nitpicking?

Also, the GT-R's claim to supercardom comes from the power/handling combo. The Z06 comes up short there on a regular basis.

While the prices may or may not be out of whack, the fact that it is at Nissan has nothing to do with it. That is such a bizarre and nonsensical complaint and it is weird how many people say it.

How does its proximity to a Sentra affect the engineering, materials, design and/or execution of the GT-R? How does that affect the the service?

"True story."

-mike

Point? I don't get it?

The fact that the GTR fans excuse the car's poor reliability by making the excuse that it is a supercar is pathetic. Corvettes and Porsches deliver performance numbers similar or better than the GTR and can be driven as daily drivers. They are engineered from the start with that goal in mind. I know from experience that Nissan can build some of the most reliable cars on the market. My friend got the hand me down Maxima from his parents with a 120,000 plus miles on the clock. He drove it all through college plus a few years after and when the tranny broke it was 12 years old and had well over 200,000 miles on it. If anything I would expect a $80,000 GTR to be at least as reliable as a $15,000 Versa. And folks please be realistic, if you don't think that the GTR doesn't dip into the Nissan parts bin your dreaming. I bet that the 100.00 a quart tranny fluid is not chemically that different than the fluid flowing through all other Nissan products.

Well I guess Formula One race cars cannot be all that reliable because a $500,000 engine can last for a few races and a race duty SMG transmission lasts about a bit more than that.

Reliability is wholly dependent on reasonable intended use. Nissan's intended or marketed use for a GT-R is vastly different than it is for the Maxima.

Marvel? Hardly. It's called short gearing. Look at the acceleration times above 100mph and you'll the see car run out of breath compared to say, a Z06. The AWD grip allows super short gearing that cannot be used on most conventional RWD cars (would result in lots of wheelspin).Hardly rocket science and quite easy to explain."

Congratulations to Chavis for his insightful explanation about a cars performance known as short gearing.

The only reason the ZO6 doesn't get a higher pricetag is because no one in their right minds is going to pay for what that car is. A large engine shoved into a light car with a leaf suspension. The fact that it can't beat a lesser powered car with more weight is just a confirmation of what the garbage the Z06 really is. It can't even match the slalom speed or the lateral gs of GT-R despite the latters severe weight disadvantage. Note that other rear driven cars are usually better than a heavy AWD car in this area. Did I mention the cheap interior? There is a reason they call it the American supercar, its a supercar by GMs subpar standards, hence the reason for its popularity by GM clowns, which you being one voids your opinion anyway.

To any other moron argueing that a Z06 is a better choice, lets see:

Does a Z06 have a dual clutch transmission?(GM still hasn't mastered decent manuals)

Does the Z06 have a drag coefficent of .27 while increasing the drag at all four corners?

Does the Z06 have a new, original platform?

And more importantly, which oil would cost more, transmission fluid for a manual Z06 or a dual clutch transmission meant to handle 430lb-ft of torque?

I could go on and on but the fact will remain that the Z06 is nothing more than a souped up Vette at a ridiculous price. There is a reason why real critics compare the performance of the GT-R to the Bugatti Veyron, stating that the performance and tecnology can match and may be better than the 1.3 million supercar. When did anyone ever compare a Vette to a Ferrari or a porche in terms of handling and tecnology? Lets see, thats never.

The simple reason for this, a reason that Vette morons will never get, which is exactly the reason they are impressed by the Vette, is because the Z06 has nowhere near the tecnology or sophistication of any actual supercar.

And 3.4 seconds for the Z06? Thats what the ZR1 gets and given its power to weight, its as pathetic as the Z06.

"Please explain the technology in the GT-R that I haven't already explained? If anything it's convoluted drivetrain layout is the liability that caused the entire "launch control" fiasco. If you look underneath the car, the way they have configured axles and tranmissions is backward because of limitations of this car's donor platform. It's a front engined car with a rear mounted transaxle via a live torque tube with a parallel driveshaft providing power back to the front of the car. This set-up is just asking for trouble because the torque tube and driveshaft are redundant. This is not "technology," it's compromise. I am not knocking the GT-R."

Yeah its a compromise that led the GT-R through a better Nurburgring lap time than the non fiasco Z06. The fact that you are a moron doesn't back up your reasoning that you passed high school. And no, repeating your school years forfailing consistently won't make you any smarter, just older.

"If you want to discount the work that went into making an almost 4000lb car quicker around the Nurburgring than 98.5% of the world's production cars, go right ahead."

It was nice to see that you accused chadwyck of not being able to read, when you failed to come up with a proper response to his comment. We all know that it lapped the Nurburgring with a better time than most cars because of short gearing.

And short f**king gearing!Thats your excuse for 0-60 times? Glad to see that you got boxer moron to agree with you.

If this car really had such short gearing, it would not have had a top speed of 193mph, the top speed would have been more in the 170mph range. A simiarly powered Mazda Furai can top 145mph with a REAR driven layout. AWD? AWD means more drivetrain loss, you buffoon, so with only 480hp and a weight of 1750kg, no conventional car can get 3.3 or even 3.5, if you go by power to weight.

The best answer to this cars solid performance is drivetrain efficency, meaning it has less drive train loss more like that of a rear driven car and by the way, did you notice that in straight lines, the GT-R sends most of its torque to the rear wheels, 98% to be exact? More of your brilliant thinking in crediting the AWD system for the performance in straight lines.

"For those who claim the GT-R is a super car, I'd challenge them to look at the acceleration past the 0-60 mark and even beyond the 1/4 mile."

Yes, because straight line times are the hallmark of a supercar. The Ferrari 430 Scuderia has similiar or slower numbers than the GT-R, so its not a supercar either. You nailed it right on the head.

"The problem with people like you is that you get so emotional when someone questions the GT-R that you cannot understand that point that was made."

The point you made was that a Z06 was faster in a straight line, a point that anyone with half a brain would understand that the car with the better power to weight ratio would win.

Once again you have proved your hyper stupidity by comparing a tecnology wrapped car by calling it "convoluted" and saying that a laughable car with tecnologies that another manufacturer would be ashamed to use is the better deal for the money.

Price from Nissanparts.cc

ATF $63.49/qt
Diff oil $45.66/qt
Micro filter $29.48
Air filter $24.41

You could have saved: $311 on parts

Nobody told you to buy from dealer.

Can't believe the management in Edmunds are letting this happen all the time, wasting your company's money like it's free.

ace47 has entered the building. Logic time is now over. It's all your buddy...

"Also, the GT-R's claim to supercardom comes from the power/handling combo. The Z06 comes up short there on a regular basis."

Not really. The consistently beats similarly priced cars around the track, gets through the slalom at close to 70mph and sticks to the skidpad at about .98g. Sorry, that is not a car that comes up short in handling.

Ace, you must be a fool if you are calling the Z06 crap. And you wonder why your posts are routinely ignored here. The GTR can beat the Z06 (or any comparable RWD car) around the Ring because of its advanced AWD system, period. On a track like that the GTRs lack of breath above 110mph is a nonissue because you really can't hit those speeds on that track more than a few times. On a track with a different configuration the Z06 can come closer. In Lightning Lap at C&D I believe the Z06 was within 3 secs of the GTR at VIR. Use common sense- if possible.

First of all I'd like to say I think the GT-R is a great car, and I have considered buying one (but the dealers near me are still marking them up heavily). That being said, I don't really consider it a supercar. To me, there's more to a supercar than just performance. It's the whole package. The appearance. Interior. The sound of the engine. The exclusivity. It's what makes millionaires wait 3 years for their new Ferrari. It's what makes other people drool when you drive by. And the ridiculous cost of ownership ;)

I don't really even consider the 911 Turbo, R8, or ZR-1 to be supercars (and I love all of them). Maybe a GT2. They are perhaps near-supercars? My opinon and surely worthy of argument.

I thought of the GT-R as a car perhaps a mortal person who didn't get a $30M golden parachute from AIG could buy and own, but the maintenance costs are a little hard to swallow. Sure, the GT-R costs less than a 911 Turbo, but then again, it's not a 911 Turbo, if you understand my meaning. "Porsche, there is no substitute" Only time will tell if the GT-R will also stand the test of time.

The Z06 is a remarkable car, but in terms of technology it is behind the GT-R. It's a conventional car, even if it's a great one. It uses the same performance formula that cars have used for decades: light weight, big engine, big rear tires, limited-slip diff. And by the way, the Z06 is quoted at 1.04g on a skidpad by GM, an extremely impressive number. I'm not saying it's a bad car, but that it's a car from a different era.

The Nissan GT-R is a completely different animal than a Z06. A computer-controlled direct-injection twin turbo engine with plasma sprayed bores. A trick differential and computer-controlled traction control and stability control. An amazing 0.27 Cd while still providing downforce on all four wheels. I would argue that it's the future of performance automobiles. Just think, for a moment, what the GT-R would do if it didn't weigh 3829 pounds. I always wondered what would happen if Nissan slapped this trick AWD system and a 500-hp twin-turbo on a real sports car with carbon fiber bodywork instead of a massively heavy 4-seater. Sure, it might cost $150,000-$200,000, but I bet it would put even the 430 Scuderia to shame. I think that in the future, lightweight materials and computer-controlled AWD will reign instead of the Corvette formula.

And for the person who mentioned tall gearing:

Z06 / GT-R

Final drive: 3.42 / 3.7
1st: 2.66 / 4.056
2nd: 1.78 / 2.301
3rd: 1.30 / 1.595
4th: 1.00 / 1.248
5th: 0.74 / 1.001
6th: 0.50 / 0.796

Quite a shocking difference. And yes, the GT-R will not accelerate at 110+ nearly as hard as a Z06. But you could also argue that the gearing in the Z06 is the way it is because it doesn't have nearly enough traction to support higher gear ratios. It's a trade-off, and not one that makes any car worse than the other. They're just geared for different track and street situations.

cwmoo:

I wouldn't say the Z06 is antiquated. I find it interesting that you seem to think the GTR"s weight isn't a sign that Nissan cut a few corners when the car was designed. It takes a lot of effort and money to design a lightweight car like the Z06. That is the future of cars, not 3900lbs sports cars that get 21mpg on the highway. The Zo6 may lack direct injection but its engine is extremely high tech and its the largest production engine with a redline of 7k rpm. Lightweight construction, crossed drilled brakes, titanium valves, a state of the art stability system, racing style oil pump, etc. aren't features of an old school car. The fact that the GTR is AWD automatically means its more complex than any RWD car, the vette included. If you notice, many brands (such as BMW) stick to RWD with their performance cars. They feel the weight savings are worth any loss in traction and ability to accelerate out of a corner. In addition, most car magazines state that AWD cars lack the steering feel of RWD cars.

"Price from Nissanparts.cc....

Nobody told you to buy from dealer...."

Who shows up at the dealer for service with their own parts?

That's fine for the do-it-yourself people but the point of the Long term test to see how regular owners will fare at the dealer.

I have never heard of anyone coming for service and saying "this is what the car needs and here's the parts that I want you to use"

@1487

I agree, it's easy to call the pushrod Z06 an "antique" but it's just not the case. Let's face it, there's 2 ways to go fast. More power, or less weight. Preferably both at the same time.

While the GT-R is a technological marvel, the Z06 is also a feat of engineering in how light it is compared to the power it puts out, and despite being front engine, rear drive is well balanced (tranny in the rear).

But I do agree with cwmoo in that the GT-R and even the Evo is a glimpse into the future with computer aided drive by wire systems, just like modern jet fighters. And even though these computer-aided 'Gran Tourismo' cars might be faster, somehow I don't think the visceral joy of feeling the direct connection of the car on the road or track will be the same. So while we still have these 'antiques' I'll pick one up, thank you, and pass on the GT-R. At least until they make it lighter. :)

"ace47 has entered the building. Logic time is now over. It's all your buddy..."

This coming from the idiot claiming that A Z06 is a better alternative because it can gain up to a GT-R after the 1/4 mile. Your smart reasoning for the GT-Rs quick times is from a whole another dimension,ie. a retarded one.Thats what happens when the two generic buffoons known as chavis and 1487 don't have a good reply and have to resort to moronic comments which further solidifies you twos status as the site idiots.

"Ace, you must be a fool if you are calling the Z06 crap. And you wonder why your posts are routinely ignored here. The GTR can beat the Z06 (or any comparable RWD car) around the Ring because of its advanced AWD system, period. On a track like that the GTRs lack of breath above 110mph is a nonissue because you really can't hit those speeds on that track more than a few times. On a track with a different configuration the Z06 can come closer. In Lightning Lap at C&D I believe the Z06 was within 3 secs of the GTR at VIR. Use common sense- if possible."

3 second time difference? This is what happens when you get your information over the internet. Have you ever been to a track? 3 seconds mean a lifetime on any track, you moron. There are quite a few places on the Nurburgring where you can hit above 110mph including a couple of turns. If the Z06 was all that great, it would have made up the time difference in the straights, but like I said, a GM clown getting his information solely through the internet without any actual driving experience like yourself can't be expected to understand that.I'd advise both you and Chavis to use common sense but I know you two don't have any.

"And you wonder why your posts are routinely ignored here."

Yeah, Iam ignored. Which explains why you and chavis flame up almost every time and spend hours coming up with dumber comments than your usual crap. Iam quite sad that I write so few comments and actually get intelligent answers on the even fewer times that I ask a question.

Oh, how I wish I wasn't ignored and had the pleasure of reading people calling me a caustic overopiniated jackass like what they call 1487.

"I wouldn't say the Z06 is antiquated. I find it interesting that you seem to think the GTR"s weight isn't a sign that Nissan cut a few corners when the car was designed. It takes a lot of effort and money to design a lightweight car like the Z06."

The GT-R is wider, higher and longer, it can seat four better than any Porche and its trunk can carry two golf bags. And it has AWD which automatically means more weight. How the hell does that contribute to cost cutting? Go and look up the features, both standard and safety of the GT-R and tell me how it compares to a Z06 or the ZR1 in terms of cost cutting. You'll find that the GT-R has far more creature comforts and safety equipment than all the versions of the Vettes combined. I don't think any GM fanboy should use the cost cutting card given the crap GM has been putting out on the market for decades.

"The Nissan GT-R is a completely different animal than a Z06. A computer-controlled direct-injection twin turbo engine with plasma sprayed bores. A trick differential and computer-controlled traction control and stability control. An amazing 0.27 Cd while still providing downforce on all four wheels. I would argue that it's the future of performance automobiles. Just think, for a moment, what the GT-R would do if it didn't weigh 3829 pounds. I always wondered what would happen if Nissan slapped this trick AWD system and a 500-hp twin-turbo on a real sports car with carbon fiber bodywork instead of a massively heavy 4-seater. Sure, it might cost $150,000-$200,000, but I bet it would put even the 430 Scuderia to shame. I think that in the future, lightweight materials and computer-controlled AWD will reign instead of the Corvette formula."

Iam pretty sure the VR38 has port fuel injection. And I remember this car lapping an equal lap time compared to the 430 Scuderia on the Top Gear circuit. So with 80k for a car that is heavier, more spacious and 1/4 the price, with similiar performance, why exactly would you need a more expensive car?

"A computer-controlled direct-injection twin turbo engine with plasma sprayed bores"

cwmoo740- the GT-R lacks direct injection. All car's have computer controlled engines. The twin turbo 3L BMW I-6 is more technologically advanced than the GT-R's engine. Direct injection is the single most important development for turbo charged engines and the GT-R omits this design. Nissan won't have a direct injection VQ until 2010.

The GT-R's gearing is even significantly shorter than the 911 Turbo's despite the fact that they both use the same formula for power (medium displacement 6 cylinder engines with high boost turbochargers). Short gearing is MANDATORY for this type of engine because the it will bog until the turbos come on boost and to accelerate their progress, high gear ratios are necessary.

When Roand&Track compared the Z06/911T/GT-R, both the Vette and 911 tied it to 60mph (3.4 sec) and walked away from then on out with the Vette being TWO seconds faster to 120mph compared to the GT-R. 1/4 mile trap speed was .1 seconds quicker and 5.2 mph faster- that my friends is significant. The 911 Turbo was 1.2 seconds faster to 120 than the GT-R but almost a second slower than the Z06. I cannot comfortably call the GT-R a "super car" when it gets spanked by the similarly priced Z06 in acceleration numbers. The term "supercar" implies that it can dominate in every category and if raw speed isn't important than we might as well not be discussing sports cars.

1487- ace47 doesn't even know that the Z06 has a composite, aluminum and magnesium frame while the GT-R uses conventional steel. Anyone with any knowledge of manufacturing processes knows that steel is the easiest metal to fabricate into a car frame while aluminum is noticeably more difficult and magnesium even tougher.

The engine of the Z06 has titanium connecting rods (I believe the VR38VETT lacks these) as well as titanium intake valves and sodium filled exhaust valves. It also has ultra lightweight hypereutectic pistons which enable the engine to have a 7000 rpm redline which is a record for OHV engines. During development, the engine ran successfully up to 8000rpm but because of restricted airflow, it did not make anymore peak power so fuel cutoff was scaled back. Plus, the sounds of the LS7 vs the VR38 isn't even close.

When you take a look at both vehicles, you realize the Vette is a dedicated SPORTS car while the GT-R is derived from massaged Nissan/Infiniti multipurpose components.

Chavis:

Since ACE lacks knowledge of anything automotive it would be silly for us to think he understands squat about the Z06 or how it is constructed or the technology in its engine bay. All he knows is that the GTR got a fast time at the Ring and thus nothing from the US can compare. He is careful to limit the discussion to the Z06 and not mention the ZR1 which beat the GTR at the Ring in spite of being RWD. Also, Automobile had a pro driver test the GTR and 911 GT2 at the same time at the Ring and he was unable to get close to to Nissan's time nor was he able to beat the Porsche. BTW, don't get too technical if you expect ACE money to follow your rebuttals. HE will have a field day cutting and pasting your replies as soon as he figures out what you are actually talking about. Th funny thing about all of this is that NO ONE actually criticized the GTR. Several people said it's not a supercar (which is is not) and ACE gets emotional and then flips out. I wouldn't be stupid enough to call the GTR a bad car but I do question the sanity or intelligence of anyone not willing to give the Z06 its props. It was the GTR before there was a GTR in America. The GTR comes out 3 years after the Z06 and gives you 5% more performance and 700lbs in extra weight for the same money.

"Oh, how I wish I wasn't ignored and had the pleasure of reading people calling me a caustic overopiniated jackass like what they call 1487."

Actually, you're the only one who has called me such wonderful names. I don't think people call you anything because they are simply hoping you vanish.

"You'll find that the GT-R has far more creature comforts and safety equipment than all the versions of the Vettes combined."

LOL! As if we needed any more proof that this guy is clueless. Aside from playstation style readouts in the nav screen what comfort and tech features does the GTR have that are lacking on the Vette?

"Iam pretty sure the VR38 has port fuel injection."

We were talking about DIRECT INJECTION. What car doesn't have port fuel injection these days?

For those that doubt the capability of the GT-R perhaps it escaped their attention that factory race versions have been built that will compete in the GT1 class of the FIA GT series.

Which race versions of road-going cars will the race GT-R compete against?

The Maserati MC12 built off the Ferrari Enzo chassis (cousin to the Ferrari FXX. Up until 2008 the Saleen S7-R competed in this class.

Top Gear fans should remember that the GT-R was picked as the 2007 "Super Car of the Year".

firstwagon: "Who shows up at the dealer for service with their own parts?"

I have.

When I was younger, a local dealer advertised they'd install an new exhaust for $20 plus parts. I called them up and asked them if I could bring my own exhaust. He said yes. I stopped by NAPA, picked up the exhaust, went to the dealer, and they installed it for $20.

And for those claiming the GT-R is only heavy because of AWD, that is false. A lot of modern AWD cars don't have the huge penalty in mass anymore due to high tech design and low weight parts. As an example, the 4Matic S550 only weighs 145 lbs more than the RWD S550. The GT-R is heavy because it comes from the FM platform and has large heavy brakes, wheels, tires, twin turbo plumbing/cooling, and the aforementioned convoluted driveshaft system.

Very fast car and I still like it and I definitely think people are knocking a bit too much...

but that service cost is still ridiculous, no matter the performance, especially for the price of the car. Quite insane. I would still spend the extra money and get the redesigned Porsche 911 GT3; its performance is equal or better than supercars costing far more, and it costs far less to service than the GT-R. Its also quite a bit lighter than the GT-R, gets far better fuel economy (24 on the highway b/c of the flat 6 engine), looks better (in my opinion), and has more personality with a wealth more color choices and personalization options.

Plus, the GT-R lacks torque vectoring for its AWD system. People can pretend that GT-R is employing all this high technology all they want but the truth is, outside of the dual clutch transmission, this is a conventional car.

When people say the Z06 is nothing more than a light car with big brakes and a big motor it makes me think why we cant say the GTR is nothing more than a heavy car with huge tires and brakes and and powerful turbo motor.

LOL. you can buy a whole Tata Nano for less than that.

This makes the super-special Haldex oil for my GTI seem cheap. It's the same price per quart, but the car only needs one-quarter of a quart of it every 20,000 miles.

lol... for someone who doesn't even own the GT-R, ace seems pretty up his own kiester about defending it.

"The best answer to this cars solid performance is drivetrain efficency, meaning it has less drive train loss more like that of a rear driven car..."

It's of course not at all possible that Nissan simply underrated the horsepower from the factory. They're not at all known to do that in terms of high-performance vehicles... *cough*gentleman'sagreement*cough* Remember, in everything, if it seems too good to be true - it is. 480 HP putting up those numbers on the Nurburgring seems ridiculous... how about 550 HP? 600? The picture starts to look a little clearer at these ratings.

(Porsche drivers only managed a 7:54 on that course, by the way. No one knows that course better than the Porsche drivers... as a side note, the Z06 beat that time by a full six seconds. On a 13 mile course that's not much, but you can buy a lightly used ZO6 for 45k these days. Not so with "Gojira")

No matter what numbers Nissan manages to fudge on the Nordschleife, the fact that you can't even utilize factory features of the vehicle without throwing transmission gears through the floor pan is evidence of just how competent Nissan is in building to beat the big boys - read: not at all.

The GT-R is a poorly-built piece of shit. Regardless of what it's designed to do, this fragility makes it wholly unsuited to "actual racing." Maybe that's why no one uses one at LeMans, despite it's apparently toutable "creature comforts."

The ZO6, by comparison, does utilize leaf-spring technology... granted, the leaf springs are race-inspired designs lifted from the C6.R race monster. Hardly comparable to the suspension from the C5. It's got simple technology, and it performs extremely well.

And it doesn't eat the transmission if you sneeze on it hard.

As a clarification - that reference to Porsche drivers talks about the GT-R that Porsche imported to test on their track.

It seems fishy to me that when someone who ISN'T Nissan is doing the testing, the car suddenly loses nearly 30 seconds off the track times... hmm...

In my opinion, this just more evidence the GT-R is not the bang-for-your-buck car many think it is.
Clearly Nissan is pushing everything to it's functional limit on this thing. It'll be interesting to see what percentage of them are still running in 3-5 years (without major work). I'd bet Vette owners can run their cars harder and they wont spend nearly as much as the GT-R in repairs...

You have to remove the underbody aero to drain the oil? That's just a poor design.

The underbody aero on my BMW has a removable flap that gives you easy access to the drain plug. It takes only a couple of seconds to remove it without tools.

"1487- ace47 doesn't even know that the Z06 has a composite, aluminum and magnesium frame while the GT-R uses conventional steel. Anyone with any knowledge of manufacturing processes knows that steel is the easiest metal to fabricate into a car frame while aluminum is noticeably more difficult and magnesium even tougher."

chavis, since you didn't bother to go to any school. Conventional steel? Thank you Mr Retard. The GT-R has steel, aluminum AND carbon fiber. Knowledge, you? Did mama help you spell the hard words?

"I cannot comfortably call the GT-R a "super car" when it gets spanked by the similarly priced Z06 in acceleration numbers."

We should definately take the word of a Mazda driver over the word of Top Gear crew, who named the GT-R the supercar of the year. These are the guys who have driven just about every type of supercar out there. Again chavis, your brilliance shines through.

"(I believe the VR38VETT lacks these)"

Its the VR38DETT, not VETT, you moron. This is what happens when you go around humping Vettes all over the place.

"lol... for someone who doesn't even own the GT-R, ace seems..."

You know what, that sentence actually made me laugh. What do you drive jackass? Let me guess, a cobalt with a fart can. Or is it a hand me down Malibu? I may not have a new GT-R, as yet, but whatever I drive is far more than you afford with your burger flipper salary. Or did you just buy a second hand Z06?

"It's of course not at all possible that Nissan simply underrated the horsepower from the factory. They're not at all known to do that in terms of high-performance vehicles... *cough*gentleman'sagreement*cough* Remember, in everything, if it seems too good to be true - it is. 480 HP putting up those numbers on the Nurburgring seems ridiculous... how about 550 HP? 600? The picture starts to look a little clearer at these ratings.

(Porsche drivers only managed a 7:54 on that course, by the way. No one knows that course better than the Porsche drivers... as a side note, the Z06 beat that time by a full six seconds. On a 13 mile course that's not much, but you can buy a lightly used ZO6 for 45k these days. Not so with "Gojira")"

Porche did test the cars and they said the GT-R was running on different tyres. That was their excuse. Do you think that they didn't strap the Nissan the moment they got it and put it on a proper dyno? Well, you probably did, hence your dumb comment. I suppose you want us to take your word that the GT-R has underrated power, which again marks you out as idiot with a possible relationship with chavis and 1486. Did Porche drive the Z06 and achieve that lap time? In that case, the Z06 lap time is as shady as any other car.

big boys? LOL! Do you really think a redneck Vette counts a the big boys? As if you needed any more proof about what an idiot you are.

I hope you enjoy whatever GM piece of, hand me down crap you are driving, you won't be getting a better car soon.

Honestly, who cares? I have not read this type of childish "fight" in a while, making it quite funny. Honestly, does it matter? Just like the import scene. You have guys that are diehard Honda and FWD guys, the AWD/Mistu guys, and then the hardcore RWD/Supra-300z guys. Just because someone doesn't particulary like the same type of car as ou doesn't mean they are wrong, just have a different preference. Just like women. Just like fat chicks and others like skin and bones. Another point is the fact you cannot legally drive that fast on public roads anyways. So why fight who is the best and fastest, or who has the most technology? Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and no one is better then another.So get over yourselves. I love cars, and depending on what I wanted the use of it to be would determine what i would buy. Its just like the old Ford vs. Chevy fights of old. The Camaro is better! No, the Mustang! If it works for you, then go with it. Trucks are the same way. I like Ford trucks for serious work, but would rather have a Chevy for a daily driver. Same scenario here. Just a different breed of vehicle.

"How much is this going to cost us?"

"THE CURRENT YEAR, PLUS SIXTY SEVEN CENTS."

"Ouch." :(

And who can forget 1487?

"HE will have a field day cutting and pasting your replies as soon as he figures out what you are actually talking about."

Someone has to correct the number of dumb comments you make. And this coming from the guy who spends every moment on every GM related article trying to defend it? I'd say pot to kettle but there is no other idiot of your caliber, except for chavis and the new ryancf and they also happen to be GM clowns.

"Actually, you're the only one who has called me such wonderful names."

Sorry no. I believe it was crowb who called you a caustic, overopiniated jackass. And being refered to as a bad odour on the 370Z page and being refered to as a moron on countless occasions and being called an idiot, non of those were me. Did you happen to forget those? This was probably where YOU had your head so up your a$$ defending GM that you didn't notice what others said about you. Either that or you conveniently "forgot". Please search around and find out who has called me those names apart from you and chavis and ryancf. Knowing you, you'd probably come up with another username and try to add to that short list. Its okay, if you morons had any class, or sense for that matter, you wouldn't be GM fans.

You actually think that a 3 seconds time difference is not much. You actually think that what you write is smart. Here is a brillaint example of your genius;
"We were talking about DIRECT INJECTION. What car doesn't have port fuel injection these days?"

That was my point, that the VR38DETT does not have direct injection, contrary to what "cwmoo740" wrote. Its either your stupidity or your ignorance that makes you write such dumb comments.

"He is careful to limit the discussion to the Z06 and not mention the ZR1 which beat the GTR at the Ring in spite of being RWD."

uh..It was your retarded friend who started the Z06 comparison. Chavis is also the guy responsible for this;
""cwmoo740- the GT-R lacks direct injection. All car's have computer controlled engines. The twin turbo 3L BMW I-6 is more technologically advanced than the GT-R's engine. Direct injection is the single most important development for turbo charged engines and the GT-R omits this design. Nissan won't have a direct injection VQ until 2010."

LOL! Does a retard like yourself know that direct injection can cause unwanted deposits which can and has caused engine malfunction in long races? So why would you put that in a track car especially when the engine has passed ULEV standards in Japan? And Nissan isn't using direct injection in the VQ series becuase they have been safely meeting the emissions standards without it. In your retarded way of thinking, Nissan has quite a few DI diesel engines, so one could say that the diesel engines by Nissan are better than the BMWs 3L DI engine? Idiot...

"LOL! As if we needed any more proof that this guy is clueless. Aside from playstation style readouts in the nav screen what comfort and tech features does the GTR have that are lacking on the Vette?"

Does your redneck Vette have side air bags or curtain airbags as options? Does your Vette have a pop up hood system? Does your Vette have hill assist system? Or a decent sound system?

You know what, I have a lot more if you can answer those.
Its quite funny that a guy who claims to have a degree spends so much time defending a sinking car company and drives an Aura and yet accuses others of not having enough brains.

I suppose you want us to take your word that the GT-R has underrated power, which again marks you out as idiot with a possible relationship with chavis and 1486...

"The internet is a vast conspiracy united against me and my snoogy-wumpkins twin turbo datsun."

-ace47

Finally, if you want to measure yourself out against me, ride to ride, I'll take my Suzuki over whatever cage to which you're relegated.

2 wheels > 4.

GFlem out.

ACE has spoken guys, discussion closed. He isnt too bright, but I have to admit he does make me laugh. I like that line about someone driving a Cobalt with a "fart can"- LOL! The genius of ACE is he actually has me believing at times that he is as stupid and immature as he pretends to be. I think it's all an act.

"chavis, since you didn't bother to go to any school. Conventional steel? Thank you Mr Retard."

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2006/12/14/14pogue-email-2/

"Honestly, who cares? I have not read this type of childish "fight" in a while, making it quite funny."

Oh yeah, and one more thing. What really pisses me off is when this type of behavior gets taken to the street. Like yesterday when I was driving my GT-R on hwy 94 in Minneapolis when some some asshole in a Z06 is tailgating, running around me trying to spur a race WITH MY 5 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER IN THE BACKSEAT! He was about 30 (dad's car I'm sure) and eventually gave up and pulled away while flipping the bird.

Grow up, and grow a pair!

1487- ace47 doesn't even know that the Z06 has a composite, aluminum and magnesium frame while the GT-R uses conventional steel. Anyone with any knowledge of manufacturing processes knows that steel is the easiest metal to fabricate into a car frame while aluminum is noticeably more difficult and magnesium even tougher.

--Chavis, conventional steel?
The GT-R's body is composed of lightweight and advanced steels, die-cast aluminum (front suspension strut housings, front and rear suspension cross-brace members, rear-seatback support, door inners, tunnel stay), and carbon fiber (radiator core support, front of the engine bay, rear diffuser undertray). Further, the GT-R's underside-made up of, from front to rear, a polypropylene under cover, a glass-fiber sheet molding compound (SMC) under cover, a carbon SMC diffuser, and a carbon diffuser-helps achieve a 0.27 coefficient of drag.The 2009 GT-R, the sixth generation of Nissan's flagship sports car, is the first to come from a "clean-slate" design-all others were based on JDM Skyline models-and the first to be globally marketed.

The engine of the Z06 has titanium connecting rods (I believe the VR38VETT lacks these) as well as titanium intake valves and sodium filled exhaust valves. It also has ultra lightweight hypereutectic pistons which enable the engine to have a 7000 rpm redline which is a record for OHV engines. During development, the engine ran successfully up to 8000rpm but because of restricted airflow, it did not make anymore peak power so fuel cutoff was scaled back. Plus, the sounds of the LS7 vs the VR38 isn't even close.

--A single technician in a climate-controlled clean-room environment hand assembles the all-new VR38DETT 3.8-liter twin-turbo V-6 (in Nissan's Yokohama factory) as well as the GR6 six-speed twin-clutch automatic (at the Aichi Machine Industry plant). I agree, a V-8 always sounds better than a v-6.

When you take a look at both vehicles, you realize the Vette is a dedicated SPORTS car while the GT-R is derived from massaged Nissan/Infiniti multipurpose components.

--How untrue!. the GT-R shares no major mechanical components with any Nissan/Infiniti vehicles. It is new from the ground up.It's platform is all its own, as well as its engine, transmission, suspension, brakes, etc...It is a dedicated Supercar! A 5year culmination of envisioning, engineering and execution.

The GT-R undertook over 3100 miles of rigorous testing at the 12.9-mile Nrburgring Nordshleife, the world's most demanding racetrack. Before being shipped from the Tochigi factory, the GT-R undergoes a nine-lap break-in regimen: Laps 1-3 (brake quenching), Lap 4 (brake break-in), Lap 5 (transmission break-in), Lap 6 (transmission break-in, engine boost pressure check), Lap 7 (transmission contact-sudden start), Laps 8, 9 (reducing friction of suspension).

Chavis, you dislike the GT-R. But is a supercar! Every automotive journal or press has written nothing but hi praise. They test this car in no way the average joe like me or you can do. Even Edmunds, the hosts of this forum which you spew your hatred on, love the GT-R!!!!

"The internet is a vast conspiracy united against me and my snoogy-wumpkins twin turbo datsun."

"Finally, if you want to measure yourself out against me, ride to ride, I'll take my Suzuki over whatever cage to which you're relegated.

2 wheels > 4"

LOL! So you don't even own a car? Not even some piece of shit GM junk?

But I don't hold anything against you, a person with your IQ probably thinks what he says is correct. Sorry but Porche didn't make any claims about the GT-R making more horsepower so I think I'll go with their word, since they have already tested the GT-R on a proper dyno under ideal conditions. The underated horsepower claim is from Vette morons who are still confused over how a heavier, less powerful car beat their "American Muscle" big block V8? Thats what happens when you don't go to school kids.

"ACE has spoken guys, discussion closed. He isnt too bright, but I have to admit he does make me laugh. I like that line about someone driving a Cobalt with a "fart can"- LOL! The genius of ACE is he actually has me believing at times that he is as stupid and immature as he pretends to be. I think it's all an act."

That just cracks me up. So you didn't find any such features on the Vette, did you? Thats okay. So everything from your playstation readouts, to heavy weight to inferior engineering to just about everything you wrote happens to be something that you can't back up when confronted? You couldn't even find someone other than yourselves who called me names? Sad, just sad. This however confirms what I knew all along, that you don't know $hit about cars. All you can do is whine and whine over everything that is not GM made. Cutting and pasting is what you do best. You are usually the first one to come up with names and insult the other persons intelligence. It hilarious, especially when you don't have anything to back up your own claims, don't you know that you just show what an idiot you are in the process? Probably not. Again the pot to kettle wouldn't apply to you, your ignorance comes from another dimension.

Its always funny how chavis is always agreeing with you and you with him.

And no, just because chavis agrees with you doesn't make you any smarter or your points any more viable, it just shows his stupidity and ignorance is on par with yours. Birds of a feather and all that. I'm sure you have heard of that one.

Guys - What's the fuss over the dollars. It's ugly - who cares?

all this childish insult and name-calling is really quite unbecoming of an adult discussion forum. if there is substance in one's opinion, then go ahead and present it, but primary school level abuse just devalues the subject, and the forum.

2c

Originally posted by Ryancf:

"The ZO6, by comparison, does utilize leaf-spring technology... granted, the leaf springs are race-inspired designs lifted from the C6.R race monster. Hardly comparable to the suspension from the C5. It's got simple technology, and it performs extremely well."

------------

Actually, the C5 and C6 share virtually identical suspensions, and the C5R and C6R race versions both use coil springs instead of the transverse leaf spring.

Many people like Ace47 like to immediately dismiss the leaf springs as antiquated technology better suited for a pickup truck. In reality though, they just don't really understand how it's used on the Corvette.

Corvettes actually have a Double A Arm suspension just like almost all race cars and most exotic cars. On the Corvette though, it's pared with a transverse (left-to-right) leaf spring instead of coil springs. The leaf springs on a truck are fore-aft.

Here are some of the advantages of using a leaf spring:

Weight - The composite leaf spring (1) is considerably lighter than a pair of coil springs.

Center of gravity - The leaf spring sits at the bottom of the suspension so it's weight is lower than a comparable coil spring.

Acts as an anti-roll bar - The leaf spring also functions as an anti-roll bar so you can have much smaller diameter anti-roll bars. This also saves on unsprung weight.

Transverse leaf springs also have some disadvantages though, especially in racing applications.

They are more expensive to manufacture than coil springs.

Each composite leaf spring needs to be specifically manufactured for each individual application. Coil springs are universal and can be used on a wide variety of applications.

If other suspension geometry is changed as is often done on race cars and entirely new leaf spring would need to be created.

Packing can also be a concern since you have an additional component that needs to transverse left to ride the width of the suspension.

It's more difficult to make asymmetric modifications on a suspension utilizing a leaf spring and that's often a requirement in racing applications.

Knowledge. Teams have years of accumulated knowledge in working with spring rates from coil springs.

$2000 for a service seems normal to me. But on the other hand, you got ripped off by your dealer. You could've saved several hundred bucks by ordering fluids online and doing the filters yourself.
For all those whiners out there, this is not a bad price for a service. BMW M-cars have a recommended service at 30k miles which is around 2-2.5 grand at the stealership.

SOME OF U SOUND LIKE REAL CHICKS CRYING ABOUT A CAR LIKE THIS. FIRST AND FOREMOST U WILL BE ABLE TO PAY FOR THE MAINTENANCE OF THE CAR WITH THE EXTRA CHANG E U SAVE FROM THE PRICE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE 911 AND THE GTR. NOW ,DID ANYONE THINK OF THAT!! A NEW 911 IS WHAT ABOUT 120 THOUSAND SO,THE 40 OR SO GRAND SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO TAKE CAR OF THE GTR. PLEASE STOP THE CRYING, STOP THE GTR HATING AND THE 911 JOKING FOR THE PRICE THE GTR IS BETTER. BESIDES THE PORCHE NEVER CHANGES ALL OF THEM LOOK THE SAME BESIDES THE CARRERA GT THAT ONE IS SICK.THEY DIDN'T EVEN SOLVE THE TURBO LAG ISSUE YET.

ALSO THE PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE PRICE CAN'T AFFORD EITHER ONE. JUST A BUNCH OF MEN SUFFERING FROM CACKLING-HEN SYNDROME. OHH THIS..OH THAT. IF ANYONE HAS THE CAR 911 OR GTR GUESS WHAT WINERS.....THEY CAN AFFORD TO PAY FOR WHATS NEEDED.I DRIVE A LEX COUPE,DEALER IS PRICEY IS HELL SO IS INFINITI,BENZ SL BRAKES ARE A THOUSAND PLUS, AUDI AND SO ON. BMW GIVES YOU SOME YEARS BUT AFTER THAT ITS HELL TOO. SO ,SAVE IT IF YOU CAN GET IT DO SO IF NOT STEP ASIDE AND LET THE PLAYERS PLAY AND DON'T HATE..........PEACE

"Many people like Ace47 like to immediately dismiss the leaf springs as antiquated technology better suited for a pickup truck. In reality though, they just don't really understand how it's used on the Corvette."

So explain to me why no other manufacturer uses them in their sportscars. You can use the Le mans wins as excuses, but there are others cars winning the same race without leaf springs. What would I rather have, tecnology and expensive equipment on a 80k car or cheaper everything on a Vette for the same price. Pardon me for liking value for my money.

This is way late to post, but here goes:

Some oil additives are very expensive. A chemist for EXXON proposed a package of antiwear and antioxidation ingredients for one of Exxon's top motor oils, Elite. Exxon decided the package was too expensive. The additive package (not STP, not ZMAX, not MMO) is now an aftermarket product costing $30 a quart. While initially offered for airplane engine protection, the chemist and testing labs confirm the additives work well for autos.

The point: Nissan probably has those or more expensive additives in their ATF to prevent wear at the hands of on-the-edge driving GT-R owners live for. Given GT-R transaxles run around $23,000, minus the labor, would __you__ want cheap ATF in them?

As I posted in April...I'd sell the car before starting to pay these costs, and I did sell my GTR yesterday. 2k for tires in the next few months depending on driving conditions, and then 2k for service, and then 2k for rotors...no thanks. I'll happily pay the price on the Ferrari.

TheDustman - Dont talk about paying the prices on the ferrari.

You can't even pay a shit for the GTR servicing.

You are just a crap! I dont think you own a GTR.

Maybe a hyundai!

I have owned or driven the Z06, Viper, Porsche 996 ( very nice) along with a long list of others..
The GTR is by is a great performer, very , very fast..What will its legacy be? Can't tell you, but I did lose my shirt on the Vettes, and Porches I've had...Also if you never had one of these SHUT UP you opinion is worthless

I have to chime in. I own both the GT-R and Z06 and I can give you a first hand account of the advantages of each. I'm adding a link to a video I took with my cell phone and feel free to post on the video and I will answer your questions. I also have an Ariel Atom and previously owned a Shelby GT500 so I can compare these two vehicles as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX01X0GiByQ

The Corvette Z06 is better looking, more comfortable for me to drive, faster in almost every way besides 20-60 mile per hour. I love the fact that 1st gear will get me to 60 and second to 80+ with incredible thrust. The GT-R turbos take .5 to 1 sec to spool without turning the VDC off and if you are not prepared to take off the transmission takes FOREVER to downshift even in race mode. If you are being aggressive in your driving you can get the 0-60 times of the GT-R faster than the vette every time but it does have to shift into second to reach 60. The Z06 will slowly walk away at higher top speeds. The exhaust note of the Z06 with aftermarket exhaust makes me feel like a man. The exhaust not of the GT-R with aftermarket exhaust is supercar sexy.

The Z06 is extremely cheap to maintain but does have it's share of quality control issues with the motor. The '08 and '09 have oil starvation issues on the track and they have a high failure rate with the needle bearings in the roller rockers. The maintenance and the tires on the GT-R cost significantly more. GT-R has lots of noises, not all of them sounding good. The GT-R idles much better. The Corvette even gets more attention, especially from women. I've had them follow me home. Women do not even notice the GT-R. Anyone that does not know cars is impressed most by the Ariel Atom, second the Z06 and finally the GT-R.

If I were to choose between the two I would absolutely choose the GT-R and here's why. It has four seats and my kids fit comfortably in the back. I'm an engineer and I love it for what it is, what it does, how it does it and how it shows me how it does it. My boys love it for it's computer screen that shows you everything (position of steering wheel, pedals, transmission, boost, pressures, temperatures, g-forces, etc). It is WAY easier to drive fast and much safer to do so than the Z06. Despite not having memory seats, not having auto-lamps and not having leather inserts the GT-Rs interiori is a 1000 times better. I love having it as a daily driver because sometimes I just don't want to shift, but other times I do and with the GT-R I have that capability. Yes maintenance is high, but if you buy this car... let's be honest, you can afford the maintenance. It's an impractical car, go buy a Camry, great car and it's practical. I feel like I'm sitting in a supercar when I drive the GT-R not the Z06.

coming at this post very very late,...but hate to have to break the news to all you gtr lovers,...but,...NO ONE IS BUYING YOUR CAR!,...sales are down to a dismal 46 in oct.2010,...no one wants this car plain and simple!,...if they are selling 46 cars a month nationwide,...they ain't long for this world!