2009 Nissan 370Z: The Decade The Affordable Automotive Music Died

Very entertaining read. I personally love the EXHAUST note on the new Z's. Now I've never driven one so I couldn't tell you how they sound from the inside. But I definitely love hearing one scream past me on the highway. And I agree with Josh on the whole aural excellence idea. I'd take a sweet sounding 230-hp inline-6 over a mundane sounding 300-hp version anyday.

Nice post. In the case of the 3.0-liter VQ, I think the sound of refinement may have been somewhat of an accident, if you believe the chief designer's interview. A lot of quality and thought goes into the power delivery, economy, and durability and -oops! DEADLINE!

Another problem could be the Horsepower race. A lot of these engines have been stroked and tweaked for big numbers, and refinement takes a dive.

I would not mind being tricked by a snorkus. A refined and healthy sound reminds one of quality and durability - and an enthusiast would pay any amount of dough to get that sound back if it did break! It's worth it. Aren't Harley-Davidson motorcycles sold mostly on that princple?

Z sounds pretty darned good to me from the outside.

@jason 25 and jaeger1,

The new Z, the 370Z, has lost most if not all of the quasi-exotic exhaust note that set the 350Z apart. I haven't spoken with any of the Z people about this, so I don't know why they edited it out this time. Maybe for Magrath's reason -- it was too polarizing. But anyway, I suspect you two are thinking of the 350Z, not the 370Z. (The G37 coupe still has that distinctive exhaust sound however.)

Inside the cabin, by the way, the 350Z's V6 sounded coarse too. I've heard a CAI helps with that, hence my interest in seeing what one would do for the 370Z.

-Josh

Well It looks like first mod has been decided.

You all should modify the intake with a snorkus, cold air, filter, or whatever else you can think of and see if you can make the Z sound better.

If the sound can easily be fixed then it should negate the crude engine noise argument.

I agree that a good exhaust note is important. The higher revving, the better. Just hearing the crescendo keep going and going, like a Lamborghini or Ferrari (or even a Z06)...

What would your ideal engine be?

can we get a post with maybe a video from inside and outside the car???

The Z sounds good from the outside, as does the G. However, they do sound a bit forced, especially considering the noise(s) they make on the inside. Kinda like putting a grapefruit launcher on an old gen Civic in an attempt to make others think you have more than 110 hp.

The noise my MS6 makes is, um, interesting. I kind of like it, kinda don't. It sounds too much like a vacuum cleaner at times, but the accompanying thrust makes up for it.

Personally, I've always thought that Duratec engines make good noises, especially the old 3.0 that my dad has in the Mazda 6S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgq1r3QMLLQ

Good sounding engine :)

I also love the sound of the Subaru Boxer engine in base and turbo form. It's a different, menacing kind of noise and unlike any other 4cylinder.

Found this too, BTW...this is THE class leading V6. What a sleeper, and I love how the revs don't drop in 3rd. If Nissan could figure out a way to make their VQ sound like this, while still being as civilized as this engine can be under normal driving, I'd be sold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjkzg_NK7WM&feature=related

I personally agree with Magrath when he says:
"One man's high tech and spine tingling is another fella's buzzy and strained."

Take the motorcycle argument: I own an eighties honda interceptor which, to me, sounds great. I am also frequently around cruiser dudes which, when they aren't painfully loud, sound sweet too. Coming from my perspective, I can't understand Josh's opinion that modern sportbikes sound good at all. To me, all I hear is chain rattle at low speeds (the biggest perk to a belt or shaft in my opinion) and an amplified chainsaw motor sped up at high speeds. I can't stand it and would not buy a modern crotch rocket no matter how many hundred hp they are becoming (though the buells are nice...)

I know what you mean. The BMW 335i has dual exhaust, but they have a vacuum actuator thing on the drivers side pipe that plugs it at low RPMs (among other times). Disconnect it and the exhaust suddenly comes alive. It's still a far cry from the other car I almost bought (Audi B7 S4)... oh man that engine makes drool puddles with it's sound.

I really like the sound of the original 350z and 2004 VW R32 engines. You can tell the engineers wanted to have a distinctive sound from the outside...

Other than those, most cars suck at exhaust notes. My old 2000 Celica GT-S sounded awesome above 6000 RPM when VVTL-i kicked in all the way to almost 8000 RPM, but it got tiring having to rev that sucker that high.

"Take that 1990 Miata we have downstairs... Fast-forward to 20 years later, and what have we got?"

A 2010 Mazda MX-5 PRHT? I liked hearing the consideration of most of the sporty cars under $30k, but why no discussion of the MX-5?

@tccolberg85,

I'm actually driving the new MX-5 weekend after next, so let me get back to you on that.

@zoomzoom22,

Absolutely, that Toyota V6 sounds great. I've sung its praises many times in this forum. In fact, I once mused aloud in the office that I would gladly swap out the 370Z's engine for that one, power loss be damned. At which point Magrath sucker-punched me, and my memory's hazy from there on out.

I LOVE these posts! More please. They really make me wish I had car-loving coworkers.

Anyway, there is one clear solution: 2010 Camaro 1SS, which is $30,000 if you're light on the options. Heck, even if you want options, the V6 models are fantastic too. Both engines sound great, the performance is there, and it is the sexiest car on the road. There simply isn't any more discussion.

I heard the non-sport tires make less road noise. Any truth to that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD0-q8c-bG0

Not exactly subtle, but gloriously hot-rod. That's why you buy a Mustang.

Personal preference or not, I don't think many on here have a grasp of quite *how* bad this thing sounds. "Garbage disposal chewing a softball" is how I would put it.

If this is the decade when non-V8 engine music died, then the 2010's are going to be the decade when sports cars made no noise. Part of the exhilaration of driving is hearing the engine race up and down, even if it sounds like a vacuum. In the years to come, we will have electric sports cars that only make an electric whine and tire noise. Also, we'll have a few diesel sports cars that make the clackety clack noises of a big rig. Nobody ever wants to make babies after hearing a diesel engine, but I do get an automotive boner when I hear a Ferrari drive by me.

Subaru boxer engine growl. Definitely better sound than the blender with metal in it.

Wait til we get electric sports cars. :)

I'm sure an there will be enough aftermarket intake and exhaust choices to tailor the cars sounds to each individual driver who cares.

Here is yet another post where Sadlier assumes that what HE finds as a lackluster engine note is just a fact. Sorry bud but engine noises are entirely in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. Just because YOU think the 370Z sounds like a bear doesn't mean that it actually does. Thats like saying that vanilla ice cream sucks because you prefer chocolate. Everybody has their own opinion on what makes a good engine note (some like the burble of a v8, others like the shriek of a I4, while I personally like the warble of a Nissan V6 or a Triumph triple, if you wanna talk bikes).
Stop going around telling everybody that your OPINIONS = fact.....

09 WRX. If not for the 5 speed I really think it'd be in my garage right now (it needs a 6th gear). Hard to find a better bargain that offers blistering speed, space, rugged build quality and exceptional handling.

I must have an ear for cars as three of my previous cars have been mentioned as making great noises.

First Car- 2000 Celica GTS with cold air intake. This thing sounded like a civic until it hit lift at 6000 rpm and then wow... there was suddenly an F1 car engine under the hood.

Second Car- 93 or 97 (cant remember) Integra GSR. I didnt really feel that it made any special noises but that could be because of my celica that I was used to. Vtec that didnt hit as hard as lift and no cold air intake are to blame for that

Third Car- 2003 Nissan 350z
Everyone knows how addicting the noises coming out of the tailpipes on any vq35 car are. I never found the actual engine noise course but I did add a JWT pop charger and boy did that make the car sound mean. I was considering buying an exhaust, but after installing that intake, I didnt want to risk drowning out that beautiful noise! Hopefully an intake on the new 370 will have a similar effect... Also ive driven the 370 and didnt find the engine noise nearly as offensive as lots of people here are claiming it to be.

I personally prefer for a car to have some engine noise in the cabin. It gives you a greater feeling of speed and of being in something that isnt your run of the mill "quite" car. Ive driven a 335i and its fast as hell but you really cant tell because it does it so effortlessly. I know its just better engineering, but its nice to hear a car fighting towards a goal that many cars cannot achieve.

P.S. All my opinions (not facts) :)

@zoomzoom22: I love gunning the Toyota V6, I just wish it weren't paired to such a sleepy transmission.

@SadButTrue: Can't wait to see your impressions. Maybe you'll get a little comparison in to some of the cars you mentioned here?

Personally, Ive alwasy loved the sound of the exhaust of the nissan vq (at least in 350z and G35 form), it may be raspy, but it has a bit of exotic to it that you dont hear on most cars. I cant comment on the 370z though as I have not seen one in person. One of the best engine notes this side of a Ferrari though is the R32..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAqkgKFdvag&fmt=18

enjoy.

Also the snorkel in the GTI, great idea until you get an aftermarket intake. Its tuned to amplify specific frequencies, those that are muted with the stock intake. Well without the restrictions of the stock intake you get WAAY to much cabin noise. People always ask me whats wrong with the car when i accelerate slowly and you hear the intake noise being pumped into the fire wall. Also it creates some funky harmonics at WOT with the resonance pipe.

To each his own. I listened to that Toyota V6, then to the linked Altima VQ. The Altima sounded much better to me, but then I drive one so maybe I am just a fanboy.

"One man's high tech and spine tingling is another fella's buzzy and strained."

That about sums it up for me. There is no way to objectively measure the QUALITY of engine sound. Which is why it would be erronous to equate Josh's personal dislike for the sounds the Z makes with a statement of fact that it sounds so very horribly bad. One man's music is another man's noise.

Those who find the engine note of the Z as objectionably bad as Josh does won't be buyers. Yet I still somehow feel that this car - which is a significant improvement on the outgoing model in pretty much every other respect - is going to sell just fine.

For the money, the Mustang GT sounds better than any high strung turbo four banger or these overdisplaced high revving V6s.

I hear Nissan is finally going to add DI to the VQ which will do nothing but add more noise. If they were smart, they'd go back to the 3.5L displacement and add DI to get the same 330hp they get today but with less NVH.

Couldn't agree with you more S.B. True!

I love the 350Z/G35 coupe exhaust notes, but what I think Sadlier is talking about here is the noise coming from the motor itself into the cabin. It's a different thing, kind of like how the E46 M3 sounds great from the driver's seat but not so good from the outside.
Personally, the VQ in my former Maxima (lost in divorce) seemed very refined and smooth to me, and I had it near redline several times. I can't speak to the 3.5 or 3.7 liter versions, but I do like how the 3.5 sounds from the outside.

There are a couple non-V8 cars out there that have the potential to make really interesting noises. The first is the Subaru boxer, which when modified correctly has a very unique drum roll sound. The second is the Volvo T5 which can take on an Audi Quatto-esque thrum with the right intake.

@Subaru boxer plaudits,

Agreed. I think the boxer fours sound pretty cool -- an exception to my rule. STI's engine note is incomparably better than Evo's.

@billybobbovine,

That R32 video is of the exhaust note. We're talking about what the engine sounds like when you're sitting in the cabin.

@stovt001,

I already gave the Camaro SS a shout-out in the original post. I don't think V8s are ever going to lose their musicality (unless you're talking 750i, in which the V8 has been sound-deadened completely beyond recognition). But yeah, the Camaro V6 is a very intriguing car. I enjoy the sound of that V6 in the CTS, and the Camaro should be quicker by a few tenths (CTS=6.3 secs to 60, I think). As long as the interior isn't made out of cardboard, it looks like a real bargain.

The 350Z and G35 coupe in my opinion have the best non- V8, non-exotic exhaust note ever. From outside the car that is, if that makes sense...

audisport- the I think the first gen FX34/45 exhaust is even more pronounced than the Z/G35. I can hear an FX a mile away. It's artificial though as the V6 and V8 sound identical from the tailpipes. The sounds doesn't even seem to eminate from anything mechanical, it sounds as if someone is playing a woodwind instrument out of tune.

@sadbuttrue

so were taking intake noise here? at any rate that R32 video is still aural plesure

Sadlier, Magrath.

I love reading these. Really cool. Raw impressions. Lots of banter and speculation. Seeing where the rabbit hole leads. I love that kind of converstaion, that give and take. It often leads to interesting conclusions.

Keep this stuff up. Its nice to see you guys take off your journalist hats sometimes.

Maybe I am alone here, but since when was $30-40K deemed "affordable"? I can appreciate that the sounds coming from "sporty" cars has changed over time, but I would have thought that a price tag closer to $20K would be considered affordable. Although I do admit that there are very few sporty cars to be had in that price range.

@cocarguydj,

You're not alone. Given that Honda was providing cool-sounding engines at the $20k price point 15 years ago (Integra GSR, Prelude VTEC, hell even the regular Integra LS and the Accord EX 5MT I mentioned), you would think that in 2010 there'd be a smorgasbord of cool engine notes to choose from at that legitimately affordable price point. Instead, you pay $30-35k and get a Z that sounds like a bear, or an Evo that sounds like a vacuum.

By "affordable" I guess I meant "not a Porsche or BMW M car or exotic."

Oh, I forgot another exception to my rule -- Mini Cooper S. That engine sounds great, and that's a legitimately affordable car.

-Josh

@SadButTrue,

you have to account for inflation, a $30K car today is cheaper than a $30K car last year (well maybe not now in our current economic climate as we maybe experiencing deflation)

Assuming a 3% inflation rate each year (which is pretty standard) a $30K car would be worth $20K 12 or 13 years ago.

Sorry for the specifics but Im just more technically inclined than most other people :)

@jeevsdew,

The question of inflation is more complicated than you make it out to be, I think. Cars have gotten much better over the past 10-15 years while nominal prices have remained pretty much the same. Integra GSR vs. Civic Si is a good example. Same nominal base prices, right? But the Civic Si gives you a far nicer/higher-tech interior, far better wheels/tires/brakes, much more robust construction, an extra transmission cog and slightly quicker acceleration -- and its real price in 1994 dollars is, well, you do the math.

To relate this to our discussion here, if Honda can pack that much extra goodness into a sport compact for a fraction of the Integra's real price, how hard could it be to throw in the GSR's engine note too? (Though the Civic Si is hardly the worst offender, as I said in the post -- it still sounds pretty good.)

Another relevant example is 300ZX vs. 370Z. The latter provides 300ZX Twin Turbo performance at a *nominal* base price that's I believe less than the base price of the 1990-96 N/A 300ZX. If they can provide TT performance for a sub-N/A nominal price (what's the real cost of a base 370Z in 1990 dollars? $16-17k?!), surely it wouldn't cost much more to dial in that classic 3.0-liter V6 sound as well, no?

Actually, in that case, I suspect the VQ engine has just gotten too big to be smooth. Can't think of many -- any -- V6s that size that sound nearly as eager and refined as the old 3.0-liter version. But I digress. Point is, inflation has a place in this discussion, but it's a complex issue.

Good point, I sort of watered it down. In reality just like you said, you would have to account for the car becoming "better" for the same nominal price which would be seen as an escalated value of the specific car in question.

But in any case nice post. To those previous posts on here that say it is improper to express ones opinion, I ask you what is the point of a blog then? Sure one person's take on how the engines sounds is not shared by everyone but at the same time it seems to be shared by the majority because of similar comments from a wide variety of sources that I've seen.

It should be interesting to see everyone elses comments at IL on the engine noise, hopefully you guys can come up with a remedy.

"Civic Si is one of the better-sounding sporty things currently, and it's a distant echo of the old Integra GSR."

Yes, the Civic Si sounds good inside or out and its not annoying as its just audiable enough to be entertaining. The 1.8L DOHC VTEC in the GS-R/Type R just hit all the right senses. It sounded marvelous, loved to be revved, was seriously entertaining, offered great performance and its refinment was evident regardless of RPM. Keep in mind its basic architecture was from the B16 which made its debut waaaaaaaaay back in 1987!

"TSX, totally boring, forget it."

For some reason Honda....errr... Acura felt the need to water or tone down this car overall. Im not sure if it was due to consumer complaints or Acuras own decision. However the 2.4 in the TSX does sound pretty good uncorked. Its a refined piece that is eager and entertaining. If only Acura would give it a bit more personality in the sound department.

"If they were smart, they'd go back to the 3.5L displacement and add DI to get the same 330hp they get today but with less NVH."

Chavis, I really dont think added displacement in general takes away from an engines refinement. That said, going back to 3.5Ls wouldnt help it as it too had similar complaints. I personally prefer the old VQ30 in terms of the balance of power and refinement. It was the standard of its time. Nissan simply needes to send the current crop of VQs to finishing school.

Honda C series V6 (3.0/3.2) was refined even though it was developed in the 80s. Hondas J series V6, in which the basic architecture is nearly 13 years of age, is still VERY refined and its been offered in 2.5, 3.0, 3.2, 3.5 and 3.7 versions. GMs 3.6 is very refined, Toyotas V6 is refined as well as Fords old 2.5L Duratec, so whats Nissans excuse?

"you would think that in 2010 there'd be a smorgasbord of cool engine notes to choose from at that legitimately affordable price point."

Josh, from an enthusiasts standpoint I fully agree with your statement, however since car manufacturers are trying to attain more and more market share (potentially more profit) they seem to think making vehicles quieter and more mainstream will make them more appealing to consumers. Ex: 2nd gen Acura TSX / 2nd gen Subaru WRX.

I do think, regardless of current econmics, with all the current and upcoming sporty options that are/will be available, great engines notes and in some cases, refinement (hello Nissan) will surface once again.

"Second Car- 93 or 97 (cant remember) Integra GSR. I didnt really feel that it made any special noises but that could be because of my celica that I was used to. Vtec that didnt hit as hard as lift and no cold air intake are to blame for that."

Umiami, the 93 (DB2) and 97 (DC2) GS-Rs were 2 totally different generation of cars. The 93 GS-R which was a SUPER DUPER RARE car had a 160hp 1.7 DOHC VTEC. It wasnt until the 170-195hp 94-01 1.8 DOHC VTEC GS-R/Type R, the sound and fury surfaced. That said, you must have had a 93(DB2).

The 1.8L DOHC VTEC engines are my favorite Honda engines to date because of their banshee like wail, power delivery, refinement, eagarness, playfulness and dual nature of their personality. It was as docile as a regular 4cyl under normal circumstances yet when pushed it hit all the senses. You could feel and hear the high lift cams (VTEC) take over then you got that nice torque surge around 6000 when the secondary intake runners opened and that surge stayed until the fuel cut. It kept pulling harder and harder the more it was revved and it enjoyed doing it in the process. A great experience given that no 4cyl in its class was even close to offering that kind of satisfaction, refinement or performance. The Celica GT-S was close but it lakced the low-midrange torque of the Honda which is why its VVTL-i felt like it "hit harder". Thats been proven by the dyno.

If you like small displacement high reving engines or you appreciate all engine types and youve never had the pleasure of enjoying a B18C1 or C5 powered car heres a clip of a 195hp 1997 Integra Type R although its accleration numbers were a bit slow as it should have ran in the 14.7, 14.8 range. The Type R was powered by the B18C5 engine which made 195hp and 130ftlbs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnby1U8UmKI

To validate what I said about the acceleration times of the Type R in the video above here is a test of a less powerful and heavier 1994 GS-R sedan which somehow posted much better acceleration times vs the Type R by the same publication. The GS-R was powered by a B18C1 and made 170hp and 128ftlbs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXlCY_brFTs

If you like a bit more torque with your VTEC heres a 1993 Prelude VTEC test from the same publication. Damn that thing was quick for its time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueWQu_O5YYo