2008 Subaru Impreza WRX STI: Subaru Steering

What do you expect? It's an economy car- one engineered by Subaru at that. They don't have the level of engineering talent that say, Mazda, Nissan, BMW, Audi, Volkswagen, Ford, Jaguar, Toyota, Honda, Suzuki, Daewoo, Chery, and General Motors has. They build reliable everyday econoboxes, at least until a head gasket blows out around 100k.

"They don't have the level of engineering talent that say, Mazda, Nissan....."

That's the dumbest, most incorrect remark I have ever heard.

BTW.... My Subaru is 18 years old, 240K miles and still has the original head gaskets.

I'm hoping that you're being facetious, mikeolan?

Hard to tell, though, mixing Daewoo and Chery in with the likes of any of the other automakers listed as well as Subaru?

I mean, if you had said Chery, Tata, and a dump truck, that would work...

I really don't see what the fuss is with the Subaru's. They feel so insubstantial.

I agree with the sentiment. Steering feel is one of the major reasons i enjoy driving my GTI so much, regardless of how mundane the trip may be.

I don't want to make apologies for the STI's steering, but whenever I think about it, I always come back to Dan's early "A Taste for Dirt" post -- http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/2008/05/2008-subaru-impreza-wrx-sti-a-taste-for-dirt.html. In other words, I think the way the steering feels and behaves the way it does because Subaru wanted it that way -- the company wanted the car to be able to handle off-highway work. Although I would certainly agree that a small, niche manufacturer like Subaru (even if it is part of FHI) has to look for ways to cut costs in the U.S. market (where MSRPs are kept artificially low), I don't think the steering is one of them. Just my opinion, mind you.

And so... when you're on dirt, a slower, more isolating steering setup can be desirable. But for the way our staff drives the STI, it's probably not that desirable. My URL doesn't work in the link above; try this one:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/2008/05/2008-subaru-impreza-wrx-sti-a-taste-for-dirt.html

I agree with Zcalvert. Great steering can make a performance car shine even on a boring drive.

@Firstwagon

Congratulations on beating the odds. Actually, the head gasket issues are mostly limited to Subarus built in the small timeframe of the past 10 or so years.

Subaru is one of the worst car manufacturers there is. I have a theory that the more competent a car is, the more ambivalent people feel about it (just look at say, the prior gen Honda Accord), but the more defective and poorly designed a car is, the more affection it draws. I mean honestly, how many people 'love' their Subarus despite uncomfortable seats, junk radios, stubborn transmissions (you can't tell me that four speed slushbox or recalcitrant manual is a 'joy') , gooey steering, cheap-arse interiors, poor fuel economy, slow acceleration numbers, cramped seating arrangements, weak chassis (see prior Edmunds posts on the STI), and the fact they're ugly as sin?

I may be wrong, but I thought that some dead zone was intentional in the steering wheel. Isn't this to make the vehicle less twitchy on a long highway drive? I understand you don't want that on a racecar, but an sti?

mikelan

congrats on making completely unfounded, baseless statements! you're doing a fantastic job. ever hear of consumer reports?? do you know what they have to say about subaru's quality...

"slow acceleration numbers" in a post about an STI? are you nuts? I'll admit that the steering on the 08 is not razor sharp but it will walk away from most of the cars on the road today. I do love my Subaru and it is not poorly designed!

@StiJockey The STi isn't a slow car, but it's slower than a WRX. Unless it's Turbo'd and expected to have a transmission replaced every 18K miles. Everything else Subaru makes, however, is woefully slow.

@lhsa Try TrueDelta or CarSurvey. Remember C&D's long term Legacy? The one with shot wheel bearings, bad window regulators, cylinder misfires, and rough idles all within the first 30,000 miles?

Having had an 05 Evo, I would agree that the 08 STI steering feels number and not as connected. That can be said for the entire car really. However, all those traits are why I love the STI as a daily commuter that is still fun to push around the ramps once in a while. I loved the EVO on the track, but I sold it because a 45-mile highway commute in it was pure torture, in part due to the twitchiness of the steering on the highway.

mikeolan, I'm not sure if you're being facetious or just ignorant. You are certainly welcome to your opinions however incredibly off base they are. But if there's any car company with an incredibly loyal fan base it's Subaru. And for good reason. They are well designed, incredibly safe, reliable, and in the case of the turbo models fun to drive. Subaru is one of the only companies in the past few months with an increase in sales over the past year. The only other company that can say that is Hyundai. Not BMW. Not Toyota. Not Honda.

Subarus are typically purchased by educated people who can afford much more expensive cars but choose to buy a Subaru anyway. If you have any doubts about these facts you can do a search and find the facts about the demographics of Subaru owners online. If you have any doubts about the popularity of Subarus, once again, look online for any of the online forums and read- it will take you months.

And no, the STi is not slower than a WRX, it's transmission is not going to fail every 18000 miles, and everything else Subaru makes that's not Turbo'd is reasonably quick. Unless you're used to driving Porsches and Ferrari's in which case, yes, everything else is slow.

Consumer reports data is based on many data points, whereas trying to come up with reliability based on one car is anecdotal and totally useless as evidence. Any car company has made a bad car, but it's the overall trend that's important. And according to Consumer Reports, Subaru is one of the most reliable car brands.

If you're just trolling than, fine, keep making ignorant statements and everyone can ignore you. If you're willing to be reasonable and listen to facts, then do more research and be responsible for what you say.

Once again, more negativity. I guess the STi just doesn't live up to the Edmunds standard of cars? Or just not up to the expectations? It's not an Evo. That's certainly true. It does many things better than the Evo (it will hold more girl scout cookies!) and some things not as well. The steering isn't as sharp, which is good for all those people trying to dial their cell phones while driving! But, with a little aftermarket modification, can be made a bit sharper if the owner wants a track star.

For John Q Public though, most of whom will never see a racetrack, the STi is an entertaining and practical daily driver.

Once again, Josh, you seem to have it in for the STi. If you want to drive something with subpar steering try an '80s Buick.

The '09 Forester's certainly not a track star, but for everyday driving, its steering seems reasonably responsive, and there is road feel through the column.

Perhaps someday Subaru will modify SI drive to change steering characteristics from freeway pleasant to track twitchy? ;-)

Meanwhile, do the Cobb or Rallysport products for Subies offer better steering responsiveness?

What do you expect? It's an economy car- one engineered by Subaru at that. They don't have the level of engineering talent that say, Mazda, Nissan, BMW, Audi, Volkswagen, Ford, Jaguar, Toyota, Honda, Suzuki, Daewoo, Chery, and General Motors has."

Subarus AWD system can effectively beat the crap out of the wannabe Audi and Volkswagon. Engineering talents of Ford, Jaguar and GM? LOL. Again, Subarus AWD may be more sophisticated than anything most carmakers can dream off. Subarus have some of the fastest vehicles in their respective classes. Look up car magazines of the past years and you'll see exactly how reliable these "cheap arse" cars were after 100, 150 miles and how well their interiors held up. And exactly how well does your Audi and BMW interiors hold up.

As it stands Subarus are better than three quarter of the cars that you just mentioned.

BTW, the best STi in my opinion is the 2006 STi. Looks, functionality, everything except the stereo and the rough ride is great.And the fact that will beat the shit out of the current R8 make it a striking deal. Hand the Sti to a real driver, not some snobby reporter and see it deliver what true AWD fans expect, supercar performance for 40K.Not to mention its far more reliable than any Audi.

"I agree with the sentiment. Steering feel is one of the major reasons i enjoy driving my GTI so much, regardless of how mundane the trip may be."

I think The GTI has subpar steering too...

@S.B. True: It is interesting that you mention the wiggle test and dead-steering in AWD vehicles. I recently rented a Audi TT-TDI Quattro. As I always do in a vehicle I drive, rented or otherwise, I performed the 'wiggle' test. There is a definite noticeable dead-spot in the steering. This can be dangerous in certain situations. That small amount of time between your input as the driver and the reaction of the car could directly impact whether or not you get in an accident or avoid one. While I was in Germany(on the same trip) I test drove a 135i. I already own One but was convincing my buddy of the virtues of Bimmer ownership; yes he did end up putting in an order for those that may want to know. Suffice it to say that the Bimmer passes the wiggle test with flying colors. I think this is part of what makes drivers feel 'connected' to the road.

I'm surprised at the level of Subaru bashing. I've owned two:

2005 Saabaru 9-2x Aero - Great chassis, some of the best steering this side of porsche, and an engine that scared the bejesus out of me when I pulled out into an intersection in 2nd gear at 1500 rpms. Cheap as heck insofar as interior, ride quality, and paint. I miss that car.

2008 Legacy GT 5-speed - The stock steering is completely "meh"....but it's almost entirely due to the tires and factory struts. The steering system is actually fantastic. This is truly a car that comes alive with each modification. I had a "come to Jesus" moment yesterday with a school bus, and apparently I need upgraded brakes because that pedal sunk faster than my poker game.

But I loved them for their unique driving character. Nothing else feels quite like it. Something about the combination of a symmetrical drivetrain layout with a low center of gravity and softly sprung suspensions.

In other words, the car feels like it's going to give at the same time it feels like it's clawing into the pavement for dear life. It's invigorating and can be intoxicating.

Sure, it's not for everyone and they aren't the finest cars on the road. But they offer a unique package (especially in the Legacy GT) that tends to become absolutely mind-blowing if you are willing to invest in a few upgrades.

And to Josh Sadlier - I put a set of Cobb sway bars on my LGT and inflated the stock tires to about 38 PSI. The steering is pinpoint now, the suspension still needs work, and it's a blast to hang the rear end out when you have traction at teh front-end :)

In general it seems like the amount of Subaru bashing is far outweighed by the Subaru lovin'. Mitsubishi gets it far worse on this site.

I've not driven a WRX or Legacy GT, but I have to say I'm not terribly blown away by the base Impreza models. Other then the attraction of cheap AWD, there isn't really anything there to excite me.

mikeolan

New Subaru's are unreliable, their turbo motors on the new Forrester's and WRX's are blowing up.

http://www.stiblog.com/articles/2009-wrx-another-subaru-failure/

No problems with my '09 WRX, and I've got over 4,500 miles on it.

Wait for it, give it some time! It's obvious that it has a huge chance of happening sooner or later. Did you see the 40+ long thread in that blog post? Yeah..

I'm not worried.

Look you guys really need to stop nitpicking so much. I agree that the STI out of the box could be better and should be better but a lot of the things you complain about can be fixed so easily. You all are willing to dump tons into the Evo GSR why not spend $1,000 or so on the STI.

First buy the Whiteline steering rack bushings which cost you $62, yeah breaking the bank there.

Next get a Cobb Accesport for $695 or less and with just a stage 1 map even on crappy CA gas and you’ll feel how the car should have been from the factory.

Finally get a front and rear sway bar, recommend Whiteline again (but there are other’s) for $350 or so.

Lastly get a good alignment

Also get some $50 rear tail light tints

I agree that Subaru should have done all of this in stock form but it’s really not that expensive of a change. And hey, you are the ones that opted for nav and BBS jumping the car up $4k. Money better spent on a Garmin, Advan 9or even some OZ, WedSport or Gram lights) rims, and the above mods.

cx7lover - Kinda like all the problems with the Mazdaspeed 3?

I'll be the first to admit that Subaru has some engine problems on it's 2.5 liter turbocharged engines. I've got 20k on mine and I'm aware that my turbocharger has probably a 20-30% chance of failure by 100k miles. I'm not happy about it, but it's a known risk and there are a few ways to deal with it.

Should I also throw away BMW for their 3.0 liter twin turbo problems?

DougTheEng - The attraction comes when driving one....try a Legacy GT Spec.B. :)

And you shouldn't be. They're going to 7,000 miles and higher before seeing the failure. You've got time.

@Tsy - Subaru is a niche manufacturer and they updated one of their woefully out-of-date products, the Forester. My argument is that they're NOT well designed (the outgoing Forester was laughably cramped), their reliability is highly exaggerated by their owners, and they really aren't fun to drive compared to the competition. And just about all vehicles are safe nowadays.

Consumer Reports ranks them high, but so what? TrueDelta only ranks them average, and TD's metrics are far more accurate because they're less subject to owner bias.

@Ace47 - What's your criteria for 'effectively beating the crap out of?' (Are your parents aware you're using such filthy language?) In some Metrics, Audi's Haldex AWD system spanks Subaru's in track performance, but Subaru's is geared more towards off road. And in terms of sophistication, Subaru is no Nissan (GT-R). And while Audi and BMW interiors look like junk within several months of ownership, they STILL look better than Subaru interiors new.

Subaru has one of the highest owner loyalty retention rates of any car being sold. Go to any dealer and they'll tell you that their easiest sales are to previous owners.

Maybe Subaru owners know something that all the Subie-bashers don't.

People keep forgetting about the main reason for why the STI is around - it served as Subaru's homologation(sp?)for it's WRC efforts(even though they've recently pulled out) While "light" and "precise" steering feel is great on the track, Subaru never intended the STI to be that type of car. I completely understand the argument that a more precise steering feel is useful and fun on the road for those fast and the furious days. However, I also believe that Subaru wanted to make the STI more capable and enjoyable for every day mundane driving.

FWIW, in Japan the STI comes with a faster steering ratio. Why it's not offered here, I don't know? Maybe it's due to the additional cost of developing a new steering box for LHD cars? Subaru has historically been very careful when it comes to spending money on development for production cars.

joefrompa

An issue with the turbocharger isn't anything like an engine failure, why compare? 20-30% is a gross overstatement. I've been to countless Mazda dealerships and they've seen each seen about 10-20 cases of smoking turbos for the entire time the speed3 has been out and rarely have they come back with the same problem. This is backed up by a consumer reports survey that lists the speed3 as having issues not with the turbocharger but with other things.

And don't take this as me trying to justify it as OK because it's not, but seems as though that's what you're trying to do comparing it to total engine failures.

I'm on my third Subaru. Ive had a WRX, a Legacy GT and now a Forester XT. They were very affordable, FAST, handled extremely well, great on gas when you wanted it to be, had AWD that is a beast on the snow, and had manual transmissions. However the one thing that keeps bringing me back is just the feeling I get when I drove one. It just all fits together for me. It works. Every drive is fun. Maybe not for everyone, but for me. I would imagine its a little bit like owning a Miata. But obviously I'm not alone with my opinion as their loyalty rates will show.

I've also forgotten about True Delta - Lists the 08 Mazda3/speed3 has reliable for the most part. 09 3/speed3 have 50 or so reported problems but the sample size is much smaller than 07/08 3's/speed3's. The 2008 Impreza line has a small sample size as well but 87 reported problems.

More on JDM STI steering ratio:

JDM STI: 13:1 (very quick steering!)

USDM STI: 15:1 (steering a bit slower)

Cx7lover - You've been to countless mazda dealerships and they've each seen about 10-20 cases of smoking turbos? Or did you mean in total?

if the former, that's downright scary :)

FYI - Turbo failure is not good for the engine's longevity, both in the short and long-term.

(and that applies to my Suby as well)

Anyway - There are a few different reasons for recent Suby engine or turbo failure. To my knowledge:

1. 2008 STIs - Initial ECU programming allowed for a very dangerous combustion condition to occur during 6700 rpm+ operation on the STI. Reflash was released very shortly and fixed.

2. 2007/2008 2.5 liter engines may have been supplied with a mal-formed turbo oil supply line. Inspections were made and a support bracket was issued for any potential needs to prevent supply line failure.

3. 2008 2.5 liter engines with a narrow VIN range may have been supplied with defective main bearings. A stop-sale was released, problem identified, and hasn't occurred since to my knowledge.

That all said, there's other problems as well. I'd tell anyone to get this engine....as long as they know that they should tune it via the aftermarket (which will let it run richer) and be prepared to upgrade the turbocharger down the line.

Kinda how some Mazdaspeed owners have upgraded their connecting rods due to failures.

It's crap, don't get me wrong, but this stuff does happen moreso on these boosted applications.

60k strong on my 06 Civic SI running the same oil for 16-18k miles at a time :)

Joe

"Consumer Reports ranks them high, but so what? TrueDelta only ranks them average, and TD's metrics are far more accurate because they're less subject to owner bias."

Mikeolan: Umm, and you can substantiate this claim? How do they get their data? From the auto dealers? And what are those little advertisements about extended warranties on their website?

Consumer reports takes zero advertising money, so theoretically no bias. I'm sure their data isn't perfect, but it's about as good as we're going to get in the real world. So once again, you can state your opinion, but please back up your argument with some real facts. Otherwise, state it as opinion.

Cx7lover: Yes, Subaru is having a run with problems on their 2.5L Turbo, but it seems to be taken care of. And they've been good about replacing engine block. Tell me a manufacturer (even Mazda?) that hasn't had problems with some of their cars. But considering how many turbo motors Subaru has out their, a few failures among tens of thousands is a small percentage. (yes, I've been reading those forum posts as well, but it really is only a limited number of cases with a lot of other vocal people.) Also, engine failure because the car has been "modded" shouldn't really count, should it? And a lot of the WRXs and STis are at least stage 2, if not more. In that sense, it's amazing that most of these cars don't have engine and transmission failures.

It's not a complete turbo failure, the seals go bad allowing the oil to be burned. The turbo still provides boost. If it didn't that would be a turbo failure.

10-20 (varies) cases over 2 years (I went around to a bunch of them looking for a part in 2008 and spoke with the techs) for each dealer I went to. They've sold at least 60,000 Mazdaspeeds/CX-7's (same family of turbochargers) at that time.

"Cx7lover - You've been to countless mazda dealerships and they've each seen about 10-20 cases of smoking turbos? Or did you mean in total?

if the former, that's downright scary :)"

Tell me about it. Mine went south at a bit over 25K miles. I change the M1 5W-30 every 5K. The replacement turbo has a different part number but no one can tell me how-or even IF-the new turbo has been improved. Funny thing; I never had to replace a turbo on my Thunderbird Turbo Coupe or my Volvo 740T...

You visited dealers that sold a total of 60,000 2.3 DISI engines? That's pretty impressive traveling. I imagine that means you've visited several hundred mazda dealers, of which each saw 10-20 failures?

So just from the people you talked to you've heard of over 2000 turbo oil seal failures? That's pretty impressively high :)

FYI - Oil seal failure = turbo failure. It involves either a new turbo or a turbo rebuild. Yes, it can still build boost....of course, if it keeps doing that it'll fail catastrophically.

Roadburner - Yeah, my 1995 volvo 850 turbo had 150k on the original turbo when I sold it, and my 88 thunderbird turbo coupe had 151k when I sold it and was still going strong with over 180k last I heard (on the original turbo, etc.). I had it boosted to 17-18 PSI via MBC since about 120k.

Joe

@Tsy

TrueDelta shows their full metrics on their website. It is a very transparent process that is not subject to the bias or fogginess of Consumer Reports. If you want to get a good gauge on how reliable Consumer Reports data is, they ranked VW in the top 5 in terms of reliability. Yeah, right.

Most of the people who buy Subarus probably don't test drive the competition. They're simply told the competition is less reliable, doesn't have AWD, and are so used to justifying their Subaru's flaws that they'll buy one. I mean, just SIT in a current-gen Impreza and an outgoing Mazda3... you'll know what I mean.

mikeolan, stop infesting these posts with your exaggerations. it completely attracts all attention away from the OP and is really just pointless argument.

now back to the original post. erin had it when she said that subaru's are meant to do more than drive on the track. well better yet, all subaru's EXCEPT the STi. this is a car, that in this market, few owners will choose dirt over tarmac.

one final comment about cheeper AWD cars not having steering feel: 2004 r32

mikeolan

Oh, give me a break! Can you really over-generalize and tell me that these overeducated informed Subaru owners don't consider anything before buying?!? And you believe everything the dealer tells you about a car so that you buy it? The american public clearly isn't that stupid- they stopped buying american, didn't they!?

And about the car reliability data, it's not the data itself that's biased, it's the people reporting it. You need to take it for what it is, it's certainly not scientific evidence, but you have to take what you get. Any analysis is biased, it's all how you look at the data, assuming your data is accurate, of course.

Consumer reports at least is reasonably accurate in terms of overall trends, and, once again, no outside advertising influence, and hypothetically, less bias.

If a website about auto reliability is advertising for an extended warranty company, does that not seem to be a conflict of interest?

Just my OPINION, make your own conclusions.

Joe- I beat the living snot out of my Turbo Coupe. I used it as my work beater-only paid $1500 for it- and it was pretty reliable. The thing that really bugs me about the MS3 is
how Mazda advertises about all the Mazdas that are raced each weekend and how the MS3 was refined at the Ring, yet my car has only seen three track days and it has already blown a strut AND the turbo. My other track rats have only needed brakes a little more often.

:snickers:

My 2004 WRX Sedan with 108K miles has seen nine track days (Laguna Seca 2x, Buttonwillow Raceway (13CW) 4x, Streets of Willow Springs 2x, California Speedway infield road course 1x) and has had no major issues. :o)

In fact, it was at Laguna Seca last Wednesday.

http://www.carspace.com/videos/play!id=.5c8ea7c6

Sorry for the hijack, Josh. And now back to our regularly scheduled h8n, I mean, programming... :o)

"If you want to get a good gauge on how reliable Consumer Reports data is, they ranked VW in the top 5 in terms of reliability. Yeah, right."

If you read the current annual auto issue, they were quite concerned about the reliability of many VW models.

GM cars don't suck!!! oh, sorry, was stuck on another post.

mikeolan - "Most of the people who buy Subarus probably don't test drive the competition. They're simply told the competition is less reliable, doesn't have AWD, and are so used to justifying their Subaru's flaws that they'll buy one. "

Really? That's gonna be what you put in print?
How ig'nant is ya? Who says something that stupid?
Someone that's screaming the comments you are, is usually a person whose never driven one. you're stuck on your own fasciantion with some other brand.

We've had two Subraus. Neither one of them had a problem...at all. Never made it to 100k miles, but honestly...who has? there are some, but the average person trades in there car every three years. Definitely made it past 18k though. I think they're awesome cars.

The last one was a Legacy Outback Wagon 2.5XT Limited (That would be the only thing I change is the length of the damn model names). It had as much ground clearance as my F-150, a turbo engine, heated leather, panoramic sunroof, etc. This thing could go anywhere and get there in a hurry.

As far as reliability, hit the mountains sometime, it seems like every third car is a Subaru, and they're not all Outbacks, and they're not all of this generation.
And yes, Consumer Reports is completely flawed. that's why they've been in business so long, and as stated above, don't take advertising money. Who would listen to them? Oh, that's right...me.

We don't have the Subaru anymore (Lease). But it has nothing to do with reliability. We needed more space. And honestly, other than the console being really cool, the Tribeca is not that nice.

Sorry for going OT! No more useless commentary from me. :)

"one final comment about cheaper AWD cars not having steering feel: 2004 r32"

How about more expensive cars with 'sub-par' steering feel. 528ix BMW. MB 4 matics. Audis. I haven't driven any of the AWD volvos but have heard they are the same.

I've only driven RWD 911s but I will assume the AWD variants have that great steering feel. :)

If you're idea of steering feel is 'quickness' then the STi is not as quick as the Evo. Unless you want to install a quicker rack, which could be done on the older STis. I haven't seen anything for the new ones though. In my opinion, this doesn't really fix the problem. It's not necessarily about 'go cart' quickness (which would be annoying on a daily basis) but feel.

No that's NOT what I meant and you know that. Out of the 60,000+ Mazda's on the road with DISI engines, an average over 5 dealers in CA was 10-20 Speed3/6/CX-7's with turbo's that we're brought in for smoking. With all the number of them on the road? Are you kidding me? That failure rate is tiny. Again, this is reflected in CR and TD reliability surveys. The actual NUMBER of failed turbo seals is a small one. Turbo seal failure doesn't equal bearing failure (which would be a "turbo failure") because they replace the entire thing. A turbo failure would mean it can't provide PSI anymore. The smoking is an issue with the turbo, not a failure. The reason they're replaced is because there is an updated seal design.

The problem is, most of the people smoking ARE modded with an aftermarket exhaust. Some of them are stock for the most part with a MS CAI or something of the sort.

Subaru's with blown engines are stock, owners barely had the time to get out of the break-in period before they blew.

"The problem is, most of the people smoking ARE modded with an aftermarket exhaust. Some of them are stock for the most part with a MS CAI or something of the sort."

Not me, I was dead stock. Some people think that the smoking shows up earlier on cars that have had the cats either removed or gutted
because the cat masks the smoking problem until it gets really severe. If that's the case I'll bet that all of us lucky "smokin'" MS3 owners will have to replace a cat sooner or later- hopefully under the emissions warranty.

CX7lover said - "No that's NOT what I meant and you know that. Out of the 60,000+ Mazda's on the road with DISI engines, an average over 5 dealers in CA was 10-20 Speed3/6/CX-7's with turbo's that we're brought in for smoking. With all the number of them on the road? Are you kidding me? That failure rate is tiny. "

Seriously, go re-read your first statements. This last statement was actually clear, where your first ones were ambiguous and seemed to indicate you had experience with just about every Mazda dealer.

Regarding your second statement: You are arguing semantics about the turbo failure. It requires a turbo re-build or replacement when those oil seals fail. You can't just take a part off and replace the seal; you've got coked oil in there which would eventually cause bearing/turbine failure.

The Subaru failures that involved a main bearing were and are a serious issue supposedly blamed on a supplier. They happen fast. The turbo failures have occured more between 50-100k and appear to be affecting ~20% of those owners so far.

I should've been more clear, yes it happens on stock Mazda's but mostly on ones with aftermarket exhaust systems.

Experience with every Mazda dealer. Like that would be possible.

Here's your quote, "10-20 (varies) cases over 2 years (I went around to a bunch of them looking for a part in 2008 and spoke with the techs) for each dealer I went to. They've sold at least 60,000 Mazdaspeeds/CX-7's (same family of turbochargers) at that time. "

Note how the first sentence says "10-20 cases over 2 years for each dealer I went to. THEY'VE sold at least 60,000 Mazdaspeeds/CX-7s at that time"

Now, maybe it's just the fact that I'm taking the GMAT this saturday and I've been going over reading comprehension ad nauseaum, but your sentences were clearly implying that the dealerships you had visited had sold that quantity, and that you had visited them over a period of 2 years.

Now, with those implications, does it seem so obtuse to think that you were stating that you had visited ALOT of Mazda dealerships all over the U.S.?

Joe

No, but common sense would tell you that I haven't been to ALL of the Mazda dealers in the US. There probably isn't more than one or two people working at Mazda USA that have been to them ALL. That's why they have regional service reps.

"dialed-in" and "subpar," isn't it wonderful to live in a binary world? ;P

while some may find the subie's steering feel doesn't inspire confidence, the STi's got a faster lap time than the evo on top gear.

suck it, evo! :P

"My 2004 WRX Sedan with 108K miles has seen nine track days (Laguna Seca 2x, Buttonwillow Raceway (13CW) 4x, Streets of Willow Springs 2x, California Speedway infield road course 1x) and has had no major issues. :o)"

Which is why I'm returning to the Munich fold. I had no issues with my Bavaria 3.0, 535is, M6, or 318ti Club Sport.
Or the B7 press loaner that I took to Motorsport Ranch...

Roadburner - Those BMWs were all from an era in which the road-going pieces of BMW were built far above what was needed. Be careful with modern Bavaria.

Cx7lover - Common sense would tell me that you haven't been to all of the mazda dealers in the U.S., but there are probably 1-2 people who have done just that and your statements supported that you might be one of them. I don't know who the heck you are, so take my point that you should be more careful with what your typings infer. If you notice each of my responses, I carefully couched each one with "You inferred this", rather than assuming you were one of those 2 people.

Joe- One of the sales guys at my BMW dealership takes his 335i coupe to our chapter's HPDEs and from personal experience I can tell you that he doesn't baby it. His only mods are decent tires(to replace the RFTs) and Hawk HP Plus pads- no problems yet. At my last event I saw several E46 M3s and they also seemed to hold up pretty well. I hung out with a couple of MCS drivers and they didn't miss a beat either.

The e46 M3 can take it, don't get me wrong there. But...well....I've heard a fair number of 2007 335i horror stories, including the failed fuel pumps, ticking wastegates, insufficient oil cooling, fuel injector problems, etc.

Supposedly most of those were remedied by the BMW reflash that completely introduced turbo lag and lowered the butt dyno impressions of the car....

All I'm saying is you had great experiences with bavaria in the past as a daily driver, the modern ones have alot more to go wrong with them and are more driven by the bean counters :)

I still plan on picking up an 03 540i/6 one day :)

Joe

Joe- I don't think ANY manufacturer has a handle on their DI motors- and turbos add one more wicked variable to the mix. Have you seen the Audi/VW intake valve deposit threads on BITOG? I've read more than one report of similar problems with the Mazda DISI 2.3. I'm still not sure which Bimmer I'm going to get- but I'm going to get something...

Yeah....whether it's Audi, VW, BMW, or a few others, the DI engines seem to be some long-term trouble makers in the making. I'll be curious to see how the new Porsche DI motors do, given their recent lack of caring about making an engine with longevity (google porsche engine failure).

Ironically, Mazda's is probably the easiest on the oils I've seen. I say ironically because the Mazda engine seems to push the envelope the most. I still think it's a damn impressive engine though.

Have you thought about a Boxster S? :)

I say pick up a 2001.5 BMW Z3 m-roadster (or coupe if you are crazy) for a track day toy. Their chassis and short wheelbase make them ridiciously fun to toss around.

Joe- The HPDEs that I attend don't allow open cars without a roll bar AND a permanently attached hardtop. If I had the money I'd buy a Cayman S. The M Coupes are kind of thin on the ground, but hope springs eternal...

i have a new spec b. i desperately miss my miata's driving dynamics, but had to get a real car that could handle real world needs. anyway, i just figured the gooey steering, spongy suspension, spongy shifter, spongy brakes, etc, was because it's not a miata. but now i'm kinda wishing i had saved some money and bought a civic si. I'm not mechanically inclined, and i'm sure i could get new steering bushings, sway bars, lowering springs, brake upgrades, but i'd rather get a car that drives well out of the box. doing upgrades on my own inevitibly skips manufacturing standards and tolerances, risks damaging things and risks voiding my warranty.

i think subaru's are great for snow-staters, DIYers, and Independents. But since i'm none of those, i wonder if it was the right purchase for me.

"@Ace47 - What's your criteria for 'effectively beating the crap out of?' (Are your parents aware you're using such filthy language?) In some Metrics, Audi's Haldex AWD system spanks Subaru's in track performance, but Subaru's is geared more towards off road. And in terms of sophistication, Subaru is no Nissan (GT-R). And while Audi and BMW interiors look like junk within several months of ownership, they STILL look better than Subaru interiors new."

Lets try this one. The famous Audi Quattro in the Gallardo against the lowly STI differentials(Evo review). Guess what? The far more underpowered STI can keep up with the Gallardo around all the corners. The Gallardo can only draw away in the straights with its power advantage. So which brand exactly has a better AWD system? You are a moron if you think its Audis Crapttro.

Are your parents aware that you do drugs and write stupid stuff on the internet all day long?

And the Haldex system is created by Haldex, you jackass. Audi wasn't the one to come up with it.

I suppose we'll just have to wait for the Audi TT-RS and the Subaru STI comparison.

@07mx5,

I'm with you on wanting a sharp product straight out of the box. To some extent, you could say of any car on the road, "But if you swap out X and Y, it handles so much better!" As you say, that's great for DIYers, but why can't the manufacturer just get it right in the first place?

-Josh

Josh
Maybe some of us want to actually use the car everyday without getting beat up, but have something that can do a HPDE or AutoX. Just for a little extra fun. We don't all have a stable of different cars to drive whenever we feel like it. We have to live with our decisions.

Why is the base Corvette so soft and more often sold with Automatics? It's amazing how many Porsches are sold with Tiptronic as well. These are sports cars that are softened up for average people to drive everyday. Of course, you can opt for the Z51 package with improves things significantly. :)

It would be nice if Subaru could put out a more comfortable 'limited' edition and a harder edged 'track' edition, but until they do, this is what we get and making less than $1000 in suspension upgrades and maybe another $1000 in tire upgrades makes a huge difference. Without alienating buyers who just want a DD that can do more, and certainly the STi can.

I don't see a lot of Evo owners 'softening' their cars up to make them more comfortable everyday. I also don't see a lot of Evo owners over the age of 25. ;)

@tsy,

I take your point, but personally I don't think exceptionally responsive and communicative steering detracts from the daily-driver experience. If anything, I think it enhances the experience. I want my car to respond promptly and precisely to my commands, whether I'm stuck in traffic or on a backroad.

I'll tell you what does besmirch the daily commute, though -- a brittle ride, excessive road noise, and a stiff clutch. The STI's guilty on all counts. Honestly, how does this car qualify as a pleasant daily driver?

07mx5 - I have both a 2008 Legacy GT 5-speed and a 2006 Honda Civic SI, so I think I'm uniquely qualified to comment back to you :)

I am a snow stater and a moderate DIYer.

Your Spec.B is an awesome platform out of the box. You have far superior dampers than I do, and alot more aluminum componentry. But your stock sway bars have go to go.

Do two things: Get a set of Cobb Sway Bars (they are matched, lightweight, and extremely well built) for $380. Yes, you can find slightly cheaper. Get them installed if you don't want to DIY. It's a 2-3 hour DIY job with modest tools, but it's up to you.

They will transform your car. Body roll = Gone. Steering input = Sharp. Transitional abilities = Greatly enhanced. Will it go faster on a track? I have no idea. But the subjective difference is amazing.

Next - Make sure your tires are pumped up to around 38 PSI front and 35-36 PSI rear.

Then re-assess your comments on steering and suspension.

Regarding brakes: The stock pads are poor. Wear them out or replace them early, but a set of Hawk's (not expensive) will make your brakes alot better.

"gooey steering, spongy suspension, spongy shifter, spongy brakes"

I didn't think the spec.b. 6-speed shifter was spongy, but if you want crisper there are some VERY simple to install upgraded shifter bushings for minimal cost.

Here's how I view it: Your Miata drove the way you wanted, but there's no way you could add a backseat to it. Your Spec.B has the platform you want, but you need to tweak it to drive the way you want....and all the tools needed to tweak are easily available. It's one of the finest sports sedans on the market...but it needs some help in shining :)

Please bear in mind that all I've recommended are new brake pads, new sway bars, and tweaked tire pressures. None of those things will really affect your warranty and all can be done DIY for under $500, or cheaper if you want to buy used parts.

Joe

P.s. Subaru has a mastercard that allows you to accumulate "Subaru Bucks", which can they be used to purchase parts, including aftermarket upgrades. I bought my Cobb Sways using $400 in Subaru Bucks, and I'm planning on saving up $600-1000 for other upgrades. It's marriage friendly :)

@07mx5

It's a shame you passed up the RX8 and left the Mazda family. It's not as practical as an LGT, but probably as practical as a Civic Si.

Josh
I understand you don't like the car. That's quite clear. I certainly never said it's a 'pleasant' daily driver. If you want a numb daily driving experience get a Toyota or even better, a Lexus. But it is reasonable to use the STi as a daily driver just like you would any economy car. It's no luxury car by any means, nor is it intentended to be. It's a compromise, leaning, IMHO, more towards daily use than the track, which I'm sure most of these cars never actually see (although a lot do) And if you think the STi has a stiff clutch, try anything American from the 70s!

I do agree there are times sharp steering and responses can be fun even in a daily commute, but for people drinking their coffee and dialing their cell phones, I for one am glad most cars on the road are not super responsive.

It would be cool to have a driver controlled variable ratio steering rack with magnetic dampers so you could have the best of both worlds. Maybe next year? :)

tsy,

The driver-adjustable steering racks tend to be electric, I think -- Mini Cooper, Audi A4 Drive Select, new BMW 7 Series being three examples that come to mind -- so that's going to compromise feel. But yeah, I'm with you. Given that the STI's steering isn't very communicative in the first place, going electric and adjustable would be fine by me. Adjustable dampers too? Sure, that could take care of the body roll issue. But if anything, Subaru should be reducing the STI's price, and adding this stuff would be bound to raise it, I'm afraid.

Yes Josh, I guess we'd soon be looking at a $60k STi! Oh well, we can dream, can't we?

I was actually thinking about cars in general, not necessarily just the STi. If you could build the perfect car, could it do everything well? Be a great DD and a trackstar? And at what cost? I suppose if a GT-R had a softer suspension mode so that it was a good DD then it would be about as close to perfect as you could get.

Doesn't the 3 series have a variable ratio steering rack option?

Joe- If someone could get the Cobb MS3 AP sorted I'd be a bit more inclined to keep the car. The story I hear from tuners is that the MS3 ECU is incredibly complex. I don't buy that completely, as Dinan, Conforti and others have managed to crack the codes of every BMW ECU- Bosch OR Siemens. I even offered to contact Jim C., but it turns out he's busy working on a few innovative projects such as Shark Edit.

"Doesn't the 3 series have a variable ratio steering rack option?"

It's called Active Steering, and it's available on other models as well. It's also incorporated into the DSC; I was dirt-tracking a 645Ci and when I tried to initiate an opposite lock drift the Active Steering corrected my "error" without moving the wheel. People either love it or hate it; I fall in the later group...

I brought my 1975 2002 out of hibernation today. Even though the car uses a recirculating ball system the steering feel is outstanding. It makes most of todays power-assisted steering systems seem wooley and numb by comparison.

joeframpa, that's some great advice. I'm definitely planning on upgrades, but i've already had to bring my suby back to the dealer once due to a warped rotor. They resurfaced it, but now there's an awful grinding sound from the front driver wheel well. i have no idea if the front strut is loose or if the pads aren't releasing ocmpletely. So i guess my cunundrum is this, all these little things need warranty coverage, and if i start doing things like thicker bars, new pads, i can easily see the dealer saying that i mucked up the car, and then not cover the issues.
I otherwise really like the car, but "love," i'm just not there yet. When/if it gets sharpened up, issues get resovled, then yeah, i can see myself with a huge smile.

compliance, i was considering an rx8, but i didn't think i could stomach the low mpg and high oil consumption, and the rotary just didn't win me over.

I drove the evo X, it has better steering than sti, but it is not really that great. I think S2000, RX7s, 135i, etc, and pretty much all the sporty rear wheel drive machines have better steering than that, so stop saying STI's steering sucks compare to evo's, all wheel drive's steering..........

Someone else said "lastly, get a good alignment", but really this is the FIRST thing you should do. I have no idea why, but GR STI owners have found the alignment on these cars (especially toe) to be ALL OVER THE MAP as delivered. Not just a bit off, but well outside of the specifications listed in the manual.

My car came with a lot of toe out in both front and rear: this leads to vague feel just off-center and twitchy turn-in once you steer past the toe angle. I found it to be disconcerting and bizarre.

On top of that, factory front camber of 0.0 results in significant steady-state understeer. The stock camber adjusters in front will get you -1.0 to -1.5 on each side. That helps the understeer quite a bit, along with running a bit more pressure in the front tires (something like 38F/32R).

With these things fixed, it's a whole different car. Maybe not quite up to my Integra GS-R in handling joy, but not far off either. Give it a try, you won't be sorry.

-Tim

Someone else said "lastly, get a good alignment", but really this is the FIRST thing you should do. I have no idea why, but GR STI owners have found the alignment on these cars (especially toe) to be ALL OVER THE MAP as delivered. Not just a bit off, but well outside of the specifications listed in the manual.

My car came with a lot of toe out in both front and rear: this leads to vague feel just off-center and twitchy turn-in once you steer past the toe angle. I found it to be disconcerting and bizarre.

On top of that, factory front camber of 0.0 results in significant steady-state understeer. The stock camber adjusters in front will get you -1.0 to -1.5 on each side. That helps the understeer quite a bit, along with running a bit more pressure in the front tires (something like 38F/32R).

With these things fixed, it's a whole different car. Maybe not quite up to my Integra GS-R in steering feel, but not far off either. Give it a try, you won't be sorry.

-Tim

Whoops... double post: sorry.