2009 VW Jetta TDI: Fuel Economy Update

I have a 2005 BMW 325i and.....

1) I don't have the courage to buy a Prius
2) I need more power than a Camry Hybrid
3) I can't wait for the new Fusion Hybrid
4) I can't afford a Lexus

Does the VW Jetta TDi drive anything like a 3-Series?

It's equal in price to 28 mpg of 87 octane regular gas, or 33 mpg of 93 octane premium gas.

So then it gets equal fuel cost to the Smart.

adavis: besides being front wheel drive (not the same) the 2.0 tdi is something akin to a tractor engine. You wouldn't imagine how much it vibrates...

@syt_shadow,

Totally disagree. The TDI is smooth and pleasant. Uninitiated passengers won't know it's a diesel.

@adavis2493,

As long as you're going in a straight line, the Jetta TDI will feel quite familiar to you. Just don't ask it to corner like a 3 Series.

-S.B. True

billt9:
Actually, where I live Premium (which the Smart ironically requires) and Diesel are both around $2.20 a gallon.

So the point remains, the Jetta gets better mileage (on fuel that costs the same), has better performance, etc.

Syt_shadow, I can assume you don't own or have even test driven an '09 Jetta since you think they vibrate like a tractor.

syt_shadow

Dead wrong. No vibrations.

@adavis2493 : The Jetta TDI is supposed to be tuned more for comfort.

Correct me if anyone is into tuning VWs, but if you tossed some better tires, different springs, and an anti-sway bar on there, wouldn't you be able to get the car a bit closer to the 325 he's used to?

Compared to competition the Jetta (even in more comfort tuned 2.5 & TDI mode) handles quite well and is quite competent. Very balanced and with summer tires it just hangs on like its on rails.
Sometimes the cars heft makes itself known and some responses (steering and braking) are a bit numb for some tastes, but still better than competition.

I think the Jetta would be a nice fit, but is the 335d too expensive for you? Because it seems like it would be an awesome car to own.

redliner and tdauber:

I live in Europe. I've driven a variety of diesels, from the 140 2.0 tdi in a 2007 Audi A6 to a 313hp V10 tdi in a Phaeton.

Both vibrate *much* more than an equivalent gas engine. I'll never forget turning the A6 on: you could feel the vibration in the backseat.

Anyone that has a functioning brain can clearly hear and feel the difference.

I would like to know how could he get 30 mpg as the worse result. I have a 150k miles TDI and the worst result ever was a 46mpg.
Also, is it a manual or an automatic transmission?

syt_shadow,

Perhaps you should sit in my 1999 4-cyl Camry. I can make hot chocolate in the morning and let the car shake it up for me. My old 1996 4-cyl Camry had the same issue at idle. :)

You have a point arumage. However, I said "equivalent". By that I mean a gasoline engine that is as modern as the TDi.

A Cooper S, for example, is much smoother.

Diesels are finally getting to the US and while they do offer impressive fuel economy, they do have major shortcomings related to noise and vibrations.
What's also true is that diesels are usually sound proofed pretty well so you can't hear them much when the windows are open. Don't open the window though, you'll be treated to a clakclakclak sound remiscent of a tractor.

Cheers

that mileage seems very close to EPA estimates. On the net Jetta fans keep claiming this car "easily" beats EPA estimates. I have VW lit from the auto show and they tout their AMCI mileage figures of 38/44 which I think is shady. No one else uses anything but EPA numbers in their brochures.

The diesel noise, vibrations and smells tend to be greatly over-exaggerated by those who have little experience with them. From reading syt_shadow's comments, you'd think the car will shake itself apart and sound like some diesel transport truck. This is absolutely not the case with modern [small-medium] diesel vehicles.

adavis2493,

I would take the Camry Hybrid over the TDi any day. The Tdi isn't faster than the Camry, diesel fuel cost more per gallon (up to 30% here in the NE), and it's smaller than the Camry.

The suspension on both cars are setup for comfort, but they can be tuned. Toyota has TRD and VW sells upgraded components.

I would say the Camry will likely be more reliable. I would also say the overall cost of ownership will be lower with the Camry, since nothing is cheap too repair on a VW.

Better yet, I would take the Fusion Hybrid if I was really that into fuel economy.

EPA estimates for the Jetta TDI with the six-speed DSG (like our car) are:
29 city, 40 highway and 33 combined.

Even with our team of leadfoots and the horrid L.A. traffic we have, our Jetta TDI is averaging 3 mpg more than the EPA combined.

syt_shadow:
With compression ratios two to three times that of a gasoline engine, a diesel will of course inherently have more vibration than an "equivalent" (not sure what that means) gas engine. Anyone with a functioning brain knows that.

That said, we haven't noticed anything approaching the level of vibration from our TDI that you claim. No blurry rearview mirror, no shaking steering wheel, no sounding like Stevie Nicks when we sing in the car.

Everyone has their preferences, but have you ever driven a Camry and a TDI and compared the experience?
Totally different. Steering feel is world's apart w/the advantage to the VW. The Camry is much more floaty for any enthusiast type driving.
With a manual transmission, its possible to get high fuel economy w/driving fun in the VW. Even a manual Camry struggles for fun.
I've never known anyone to TRD a Camry. Other Toyota's sure, but the Camry is sort of the antithesis to sporty driving.

Just a thought on the Smart/Jetta TDI mileage comparison-it's an interesting thing to compare, but I'm betting the Jetta has been on a few more mileage-friendly highway slogs, whereas the Smart has been pulling city traffic duty almost the entire time. Still, impressive numbers from the Jetta-especially the 30 as the lowest number.

I have a GM/Detroit Diesel 6.5L turbo V-8 in my '99 Suburban, and it's relatively smooth, despite being an old school design from the early 1980's (with a few updates along the years such as electronically controlled injection pump). Admittedly, it's not as smooth at idle as a gasoline V-8 is, but I noticed the vibration is only at very low RPM at idle, like around 600 RPM. Bump it up to even just 650-700 RPM, and there is almost no vibration and it is very smooth. The engine is also very smooth under power. When driving around, it is just as smooth as a gasoline engine.

I happen to like the diesel clatter. Especially in V-8 form, the Suburban sounds very beastly. I love it, and I've received numerous compliments on the way it sounds. Of course my aftermarket 4" straight pipe exhaust helps too :)

Didn't IL do a mileage comparo with the 2005 TDI, a Prius and the Smart?

I seem to recall that the 2005 TDI beat the Smart pretty convincingly, and that, while the Prius got better overall mileage, the TDI was the universal pick for the better every day car.

bankerdanny,
Yes, Edmunds did a "Gas-Sipper Smackdown" in which our long-term used 2005 TDI finished second to the Prius. And yes, many of us would've picked the TDI as our daily driver:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/126370/article.html

maybe it was a really nice tractor?

syt_shadow, for the way you are talking there is no way your are European. just my opinion, but i do not know of an Europeans that would even think of putting down a diesel like the way your have. you are probably a California-based hybrid fanatic, just like the rest of the diesel haters.

dino6,

I've owned a TDi since '02, and I've driven the Camry Hybrid on several occasions (Philly car share has them in it's fleet).

I still don't understand the logic of some people. why buy cars designed for max fuel economy and expect sports car performance? But I'll entertain your comments:

Steering is world apart? They both now use the numbing electric power steering...EPS are not known for providing great feedback.

Fun? Sorry, but how much fun can you get from a TDi with a 4750 RPM redline......if you have ever driven a TDI, anything over 4K is dead, no power. The peak power band is around 1800-3500-rpm. You would want to get it in manual, because the DSG is expensive to maintain. The Camry comes with CVT only, not much fun either.

As for the sport handling and TRD on Camry. Well the Camry SE comes with sport-tuned shock absorbers and springs, strut tower and trunk-mounted braces. If you don't have the SE model, you can always get the TRD Lowering Springs. I know one Hybrid guy that got the springs, and added some 18" wheels and rubber. It drives pretty nice down the highway.

http://www.toyotaparts4u.com/camry-trd-suspension-lowering-springs-set-p-121.html

To get the most out of the Jetta, I would have to swap out the springs too.

The TDi vs Hybrid debate is a moot point, both achieve the same thing using different technology. But the VW (or Hybrid) fans would lead you to believe that only one technology is the way to go.

Is a Jetta going to be comparable to an M3? Of course not. But an M3 costs two-and-a-half times as much, for the record.

But does a Jetta have that hard-to-define "Teutonic driver's car" feel that other eco-cars lack? Absolutely. It's got nicely-weighted, communicative steering. It's got fluid, composed body motions on a twisty road. Not only does it have a manual transmission, but the shifter has a smooth, mechanical feel like a bolt-action rifle.

And GLI suspension bits should bolt right on.

Yeah, it's FWD, not RWD, but unless you're at the limits of adhesion, suspension tuning matters more than the drive wheels.