2008 Cadillac CTS: Shortcuts That Try My Patience

The carpet issue would definitely bother me, but I'm sure I would get used to the non-illuminated hood/parking brake release.

Have the dealer repair or replace the velcro.

As doug said, you'll get used to the parking brake thing.

The devil is in the details. That carpet would drive me crazy, but not a deal breaker.

Its a shame the CTS is starting to have lots of little problems like this. I had hoped that the build quality on the caddy had finally gotten to the level where it should be, but while I guess its improved, its just not at the level of its competitors yet.

That's actually pretty funny. To think that they would produce a car with such an imperfection in design and quality is well, American. That's not a dealer problem. That's a design issue a corner that was cut. Those wires hanging out like that don't look very good either.

It's not a design issue... pffft... it's just that Bob was comming up on his lunch break, tired, kind of a long morning, up ALL night the night before and couldn't stop thinking about that juicy roast beef sandwich his wife had packed him.

In all seriousness, not a dealbreaker, but I might have my dealer take a look at it.

I love the CTS, but it is still obviously a GM product, getting much better in overall quality but you can still see cost cutting everywhere. I am still amazed at the good quality pieces I find hidden in my A4. Underneath the driver and passenger front seats there are little storage drawers that pull out. These drawers are lined with a high quality soft material, as are the glove box and center console. There are no obvious seams in the plastic, no exposed wires, no plastic flash, nothing. The only cheap plastic piece that feels cheap is the bottom piece of the B pillar trim. And this is the entry level sedan from Audi. Seems like nitpicking but alot of people in the CTS target market consider these small quality details. I still love the way the CTS looks and drives however.

America cars ftw.

jaguar,

Are there rampant build quality issues? Really this is a design flaw and not a build issue. If you look hard enough you can find issues like this in most cars, although it seems less likely in German cars. Ever looked at how the trim (doesnt) line up between the dash and door in a G37? I've noticed this in all of the ones I have been in so far. Not only does the trim not align perfectly but the gap is large enough for you to stick your finger in between the two components when the door is closed.

Audisport,

carpet notwithstanding the CTS interior is pretty close to that of the A4. You wont find seams or flashing inside and every door operates with damped fluidity. And you have the added bonus of nice stitching on the dash, and door panels for all four doors.

I never understand why hood and parking brake releases have to be inline and so close together.

Move the hood release lower and to the right under the steering column and move the parking brake release higher up. Problem solved! They don't need to be illuminated.

This is exactly what Lexus did and I have never unlatch the hood accidentally.

Anything that the user have to get used to, is a bad design.

And the seat thing, that's just lame.

And the American big 3 still wonder why people prefer imports more then their products, because even though they came a long way, it still haven't catch up to the imports yet, still quite a ways to go.

America is the best place to live, I am proud to be an American. But American cars are nothing to be proud of.

Better not buy an American car ever again then. This is truly the last straw. There is no excuse for this kind of piss poor quality that can't even rival a Yugo's.

I don't know why Americans even bother to try to build any cars. They should just quit now while they're behind. German and Japanese cars are just so much better, no American car can EVER match. You'll never have any problems from any German or Japanese car, and they last forever. Why would you buy a POS like the CTS?

// OK, those of you who know me, know I was being extremely sarcastic. However, it seems like a big portion of this country, and most of the state of California has the same opinion above. And these same weirdos wonder why our economy is in the crapper?

FWIW, the A4 looks great new, but talk to me in 5 years when the interior is peeling off, trim pieces falling off, and half of the electrical gizmos are broken. I would rather have some exposed wires and an interior that looks new 5 years from now than a perfectly detailed interior when new that looks like crap in 5 years.

GM should have done a better job hiding those wires, but it's not a deal breaker that some of the posters here make it out to be. Just about every car from every manufacturer has its design flaws and areas of cut corners. To not have any would be the perfect car, and the perfect car does not exist.

Regarding the comment about the A4 interior, I have a 2008 Audi RS4 with a center armrest that is not only useless, but also one of the creakiest pieces of cheap plastic I've ever experienced. And with our recent temperature fluctuations in LA it's become even more apparent that even the great Audi/VAG cuts costs on certain interior parts. No manufacturer is immune from it, not even at very high price points. The Caddy's exposed seat wires is definitely a 'doh' but it's not a deal breaker. Stop complaining and quit making references to this being an American-only manufacturer shortcoming; I am getting so sick of hearing that nonsense.

OMG! they can ripe a nissan GTR to its frame, but people dont say how realiable it is and will defend it. Yes! this is a cost cutting issue but every f%%%ing company does it. companies are in the business to make money. The Cts has first year issues with its software, nothing major! but people always find a way to put a good car down! it is so stupid

Stingray - I don't have tons of experiences, but I've been in 2 '99 Audi A4s owned by friends with 100-150k miles on them. Both looked immaculate inside, felt amazing, and just exuded quality. I've seen peeling trim in some ~2002-2005 VW golfs/jettas....but I haven't seen or heard it endemic to others?

Just my experience, but I've seen my fair share of exposed wiring in cars....those are some shabby looking wires. The amount of exposed individual wire and the gauging of such wire as shown looks like it'll pretty easily come apart on that seat rail.

It's a design miss and build quality issue (i.e. wires should be better integrated - design, wires becoming exposed and poor velcro - build quality). Everyone has them. Sucks when you see them. Oh well.

The parking brake/hood latch is just a stupid miss on the design team. Hopefully it'll be fixed within a year or two. As others have pointed out, it doesn't need it's own lighting system, just some sort of seperation.

Erin - Thanks for the great post with great photos. That's the type of post that should be observed by GM, printed out, and posted on the design wall.

If they still have jobs next year, after GM directed $1 billion in their bailout money to re-invest in Brazilian operations.

I also think that cadillac cts will have a parketing brake button next to the gear slecter. Like the cts-v and the 2010 Buick lacrosse

stingray454,

I have never owned an American car and won't be buying one until their design and quality matchs or exceeds their competitors. I am a consumer, I spend my money on what is best for me, I don't care what the brand is, IMO there shouldn't even be brands, because it doesn't mean anything.

Japanese are the best currently, Germans are only a little better, and don't forget the Korean that is passing the Germans and almost matching the Japanese now.

If a large group of people have the same opinion, that is because it is true.

Our economy is in the crapper is due to greed of people and the economic cycle, it has nothing to do with no one buying American cars.

It only takes 2 years for an A4 to look like crap, not 5. I just saw a 3 months old A4 with one of it's LED DRL burned out, my mom's 9 years old Halogen DRL Bulbs in her Lexus is still going. Like I said, German cars are not much better then American cars, they are crappy in a different way.

I agreed nothing is perfect, everything have flaws and areas of cut corners. But good products have a lot less flaws then the bad products.

At least GM tried to hide those wires. There is no cover or anything on my dads current gen 5 series leaving the wires in plain sight. Whats worse is that the seat back covers(with the map pockets) are falling off the seats. The dealer already glued them back on so no prob.
No brand is perfect...

It's funny how people lash out at German cars to justify the crappy stuff in the CTS. If people would just own up to the mistakes instead of talk themselves into them maybe we'd have a nicer Caddy right now. Forget what the other brands are doing, this stuff wouldn't be justified for any of them.

Yes, there is a better way to attach said fabric, but if you cut the piece to fit without folding what happens when you adjust the seat for height?

If anything GM should have gone with an according type fold ensuring for better fitment, but you can't fault the General for attempting to hide nasty wires.

And while were at it a lot of lux cars have omissions here and there. The 3 series has some of the flimsiest cupholders, and storage areas that are severely lacking. The rubberized buttons on the A4 are gone, and the new non-MMI head unit has buttons that would be at home in a 15K Ford Focus. I could go on.

All I know is that the 2006 A3 I own exudes build quality, fit and finish supremacy, and fine materials and workmanship. I constantly find that their are quality parts to the smallest little details. Are there some parts where they didn't go the extra mile? Sure, of course. Are there many where they did? Yes, absolutely.

How do American cars compare to this? Not well. As I've always said, the CTS is a $15K car comparable to a Ford Focus and is simply overpriced by 3X. The quality and build just isn't there. My 2003 Accord Coupe was nicer.

"FWIW, the A4 looks great new, but talk to me in 5 years when the interior is peeling off, trim pieces falling off, and half of the electrical gizmos are broken. I would rather have some exposed wires and an interior that looks new 5 years from now than a perfectly detailed interior when new that looks like crap in 5 years. "

The B8 A4 won't suffer from such feat, I can already tell by the materials used. Electrical "gizmo's" breaking is a thing of the past. Ask any A4 owner, they're plenty with well over 80K miles with everything that works. Ignorant.

I agree that the Audi/VW quality comments should be directed to previous generations. My family has 2 2004 VW Golf TDIs that have both experienced a range of environments and user care, from gentle to extreme. Neither has peeling plastics, trim falling off or failing electrical system.

The current Audi/VW quality is also supported by CR, for those who support that publication. In the most recent CRs, VW/Audi was right in the middle of the pack - not the best position, but certainly not as bad as people suggest.

The cupholders on my 335i are ridiculous, especially with the N54 engine which will topple over anything in the cupholders with a kick of the throttle. Storage is lacking, although it's a tad better if you don't have iDrive (little odd shaped storage cubby next to the parking brake). At least it doesn't have the stupid arm wrest that interferes with the parking brake like the B7 audi A4/S4/RS4.

Point is, there are design shortcomings on every vehicle. The question is how easy are they to live with. I can see the parking brake thing on the CTS to be a massive pain in the ass, especially if you pull up the hood at 2 AM in the rain, or any time where you really want to go NOW and don't want to have to get out, lift the hood, shut the hood, get back in, then go (assuming you don't trip the hood again).

At least it doesn't have the stupid arm wrest that interferes with the parking brake like the B7 audi A4/S4/RS4.

They designed it so that you lift the armrest, THEN raise the parking brake.

"It's funny how people lash out at German cars to justify the crappy stuff in the CTS."

It's not that he was lashing out at German cars so much as he was trying to explain to you that all cars have at least some flaws... even the German cars which many claim to be perfect.

All in all folks, it's just a very minor bit of trim that came loose and doesn't justify comments like this....

"I have never owned an American car and won't be buying one until their design and quality matchs or exceeds their competitors."

In my E90, I just lift the parking brake. No armrest moving required. :D Stupid design, Audi. Make a one step process a two step process.

(keep in mind I almost bought a B7 S4, twice)

You're dealing with an extremely cramped space, you try adding the handbrake in some other area.

Look at the bright side, they won't have tear apart the car to get at the wires. Also, some electrical tape can fix that up. If you really don't like it, you could just move up the seat a bit so you don't see it. I'm betting the seat is all the way back on that photo.

Cramped space or not, others have found ways. You're making an excuse. As 'lazyhater' said above, "Anything that the user have to get used to, is a bad design."

Excuse? Place the hand brake somewhere else without compromising space or the armrest. Yeah you won't find anywhere else to place it without completely redesigning the front cabin - Stupid so you don't have to lift your armrest to pull up the handbrake. I know it's not THE best design but I understand they're LIMITATIONS to where you can put stuff.

And that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Adjusting to new things has to be a poor design? Yes, DSG transmissions are horrible, so are diesels. Both require getting used to so scratch those off as piss poor.

"And the American big 3 still wonder why people prefer imports more then their products, because even though they came a long way, it still haven't catch up to the imports yet, still quite a ways to go."

GM outsells Toyota in the US. Ford outsells Honda in the US. Chrysler outsells Nissan in the US. The reason "most" Americans buy foreign nameplates is that there are 7 major foreign automakers doing business in this country.

I had an opportunity to sit in the 2009 Pilot and after experiencing the lame interior design, rock hard interior plastics, questionable ergonomics and cheap touches like a glove box door that drops to your knees when unlatched I know people like lazyhater are full of it. I sat in the Flex at the autoshow as well and its in a different league than the Pilot.

"How do American cars compare to this? Not well. As I've always said, the CTS is a $15K car comparable to a Ford Focus and is simply overpriced by 3X. The quality and build just isn't there. My 2003 Accord Coupe was nicer."

You are delusional. A 2003 Accord's interior wasnt as nice as the Cadillacs on sale in 2003, much less now. How many late model American cars have you sat in recently? Not many I assume based on your level of ignorance. Sit in the Enclave, SRX, STS, DTS, Vue, Lucerne or Malibu and see how many flimsy parts or poor panel fits you can find.

People ought to be careful when using the word "import." Most Hondas and Toyotas are built in America while certain Mazdas are built in Japan and from personal experience, their "quality" isn't better than any Big 3 vehicle. Trust me- I was just at the dealership yesterday and some lady's CX-7 has been randomly stalling since she took delivery. She was pissed

09 Pilot is a piece of crap, drives just like it looks too.

1487 - GM = 9 US brands, Toyota = 3 US brands

If you compare Chevy vs. Toyota (straight brands), Toyota sold over 150,000 more vehicles in 2008 than Chevy. Here's the data:

http://newsblaze.com/story/2009010511130200001.pnw/topstory.html

http://jalopnik.com/5123730/gm-december-sales-down-314-still-us-sales-champ

Lexus outsold Cadillac by about 40%.

My point is that if you compare the individual brands, the story becomes a little more....nuanced.

"Anything that the user have to get used to, is a bad design."

such as the appearance of any recent BMW.

"GM = 9 US brands, Toyota = 3 US brands"

No, GM = one brand, Toyota = one brand. For marketing reasons they may want to throw different names on their cars but they are just one brand.

While we're nitpicking, the 3 series has a foolish location for power window switches. They're like two inches too far forward. That's stupid. BMW supposedly fixed that in 09+.

Design is subjective. I'd have to argue recent Cad's have just as much polarized design as recent BMW's. I happen to like both. One CTS-V to go, please!

I sat in the new G8 at a recent car show. Not impressed, though it is nicer than your usual Big 3 hard plastic cheap as can be texture rental fodder I'm used to.

I have high standards when it comes to quality, and "acceptable" just ain't gonna cut it!

Honda/VW interiors are my minimum standard. Acura and Audi are clearly a step up from each of those. Again, I don't have rattle issues like Edmunds' CTS has been plagued with.

I can assume American cars haven't changed because they continue to have the same expected, predicted, and now come true quality issues.

joe,

Spare me the excuses. GM is a corporation and Toyota is a corporation. When you find a corporate statement bearing the name "Lexus" or "Scion" get back to me. GM has so many brands because it was formed by merging existing companies. GM plants often build vehicles for different brands. Every Lamda is a GM product regardless of the badge. Toyota started out much differently than GM and that's why it has far fewer brands. When people indicate that the majority of Americans buy imports (which is true since its like 52%) they foolishly think that no one is buying vehicles from the 3 american companies. Thats hardly the case.

"If you compare Chevy vs. Toyota (straight brands), Toyota sold over 150,000 more vehicles in 2008 than Chevy. Here's the data:"

Are you surprised? Truck sales tanked for GM and Toyota in 2008. Chevy sells about 3 times as many pickups as TOyota and thus the collapse of the truck market hurt them a lot more than Toyota. Again, that doesnt change the fact that GM sold 700k more units than Toyota in the US. Nice try though.

andres,

No one ever said the G8 had soft plastic. How can honda and acura be examples of what you are looking for? Every Honda has hard plastics and Acuras do in all the lower dash and door panel areas. Give me a break. Sit in a Lacrosse or Lucerne and then ANY Honda product and tell me which has more soft touch surfaces. On the majority of non luxury cars (excluding compacts) the upper dash is soft touch and the lower dash is hard plastic. Its like this on my car, in Mazdas, Hondas, Toyotas, Acuras, etc. The Pilot is an exception since I couldnt find any soft surfaces anywhere.

Also, I would like Joe and others who like to talk about declining sales and marketshare to tell me how much of the Euro market VW/MB/BMW/etc. have vs the share of the big 3 in the US. The inference is that not having dominant share in your home continent (or country) is a sign of inferior product but the reality is more competiton equals smaller share. Everyone shrinks after a while- just ask Toyota. They are now reduced to gaining share points by shrinking slower than GM in the US market. Only in Japan do the home team companies totally dominate the local market. Not having much in the way of imported competition will work wonders for your share.

andres3 - How are the Open Sky shade latches on your A3 holding up? Both of mine didn't make it to the first oil change. Also, the aluminum trim was made on the same assembly line as Reynolds Wrap.

"such as the appearance of any recent BMW."

Agreed 100%.

Actually in my opinion, everything sucks in life. I just buy the things that suck the least.

That is why my name is lazyhater, I hate everything and I am lazy because nothing in life is worth any effort :-)

I agree with most of the posters here. This is a stupid design (bad design) and it shouldn't be excusable. Those are exposed wires sticking out of the hub, which can easily be damaged by shoes or 1000 other thigns. GM could have at least protected that part with duck tape or something! I'm not going to comment on the parking brake release. If it's not on the center stack - it's not worth my attention.

my 325i has all of the wires tucked underneath the seat. Nothing sticks out. No ridiculous velcro covers that would look like an afterthought on a russian combine harvester. The CTS' design looks very cheap. Definitely a deal breaker for me if I'm shopping for a new car. Maybe not so much if it was selling for say 20K on a used car lot.

And just for the record - the current generation 3 series' cupholders are not horrible. They've held every single container I stuck in them and they did the job fine.

nomercy346,

I find it hardly believable what you said about the current generation 5 series. I've been in tons and tons of these cars ranging from 05 to 08 model years and I couldn't see a single exposed wire.

It's not just about soft touch, but also quality, texture, look, fit, finish, build quality, strength, solidness, durability, scratch resistance, color, color durability (doesn't fade in sun), assembly (doesn't melt the glue when it's hot and come apart) like the adhesives and fasteners used in the CTS?????

They are probably using the same glue on their VELCRO ??? straps in the CTS as they did on the 1995 Dodge Neon Window Trimmings that leaked and spewed under the sun.

JlasZlo:

I didn't purchase my A3 with the Opensky moonroofs so therefore it is a non-issue with their quality problems on that one OPTIONAL part. 1) The open sky along with all options from Audi are way overpriced. Though the cars themselves are value priced extremely competitively.
2) The open sky had noticeably lame design with the covers that don't block the sun and the latches didn't look beefy to begin with. Apparently these latches are like 90% of all warranty claims on the A3 because it is an extremely reliable vehicle and CR shows it.
3) I'm 6'2" tall, and the head room suffers miserably with the open sky seemingly reducing head room by about 1.5"

That being said, Audi should make their optional parts better, I bet this has been corrected by now? But it's when the BASE/Main parts of a car are of poor quality that you REALLY have a problem.

The aluminum trim does scratch easily, but it looks really good even after almost 3 years and 50K now. I wish it was more scratch resistant. However, the aluminum that's real and solid around my vents (one of my favorite touches) is not scratched at all. That didn't come from Reynold's!

1487 - What are you talking about man? I merely commented on your statement that GM sells more in the U.S.....there's no inference there.

The point I was making is it's kind of like saying Toyota sells more than Subaru. Well Subaru offers 5 different models (Impreza, Legacy, Outback, Tribeca, Forester) vs. Toyota's different models (17 at last count).

Toyota had a winning worldwide strategy, hence why they now sell more vehicles globally than GM. I don't think it has much to do with quality, though for some reason there is an image of Toyota and a rock solid maker of cheap, reliable vehicles. I think it was superior upper management, personally.

But that's just my mindset. If a group is failing, I blame it on the management.

By the way 1487, you said, "They are now reduced to gaining share points by shrinking slower than GM in the US market."

First off, they are losing volume sales since we have shrank to about 8.5 million new sales instead of the old 11-12 million. Second, it's not "reduced to"....it's a great place to be when your primary competitor is shrinking faster than you, you have sufficient reserves to last through the crisis, and your overall strategy is working well. It means you come out on top when things perk back up.

In Corporate strategy, I see Toyota and beating the crap out of GM over the past decade. Of course, their quality is declining....a fact that they acknowledged as soon as it happened. How refreshing.

As a student of corporate culture, Toyota inspires on a number of fronts. As a student of enthusiast automobiles, Toyota bores me :)

Last quote from you for the time, "Are you surprised? Truck sales tanked for GM and Toyota in 2008. Chevy sells about 3 times as many pickups as TOyota and thus the collapse of the truck market hurt them a lot more than Toyota. Again, that doesnt change the fact that GM sold 700k more units than Toyota in the US. Nice try though. "

Nice try at what? I don't even know what you are trying to point out. I made a statement. You didn't even disagree with it. You simply pointed out why they sold so much less....kind of an indictment of their brand strategy.

Let me ask you something: In the past 10 years, how many years did small car sales suffer? Now how many years did truck sales suffer?

Perhaps a lesson could've been learned early on from those questions, applied vigorously and successfully.

joe,

Please put down the Toyota kool aid and join me in reality. Toyota is about to post a $5B loss and you are telling me there business plan is solid. Their sales are plunging farther than Honda, Mazda and Suburu in recent months and they are paying workers in Texas to clean parks because no one wants their large pickup. Sorry, they are not doing well right now. Their only measure of solace is that they arent doing as poorly as GM financially. I dont think Toyota execs are high fiving each other over 32% sales drops each month even if Chrysler is posting even worse results. Toyota is the most over extended and overly aggressive of the Japanese automakers and thats why they are posting the worst financial results and sales figures.

"Let me ask you something: In the past 10 years, how many years did small car sales suffer? Now how many years did truck sales suffer?"

Small car sales havent suffered because they arent the meat of the market in the US. Until recently SUVs and pickups easily outsold small cars. This is why EVERY import automaker doing business in the US has been adding SUVS and/or pickups over the last decade. Most of the expansion of the SUV offerings has come from imports, not Detroit. Toyota has been pushing hard into the truck/SUV market in the 2000s. As you said, sounds like bad management to me.

BTW, a normal market in the US is like 16-17m units, not 12m units. They are forcasting about 10m units this year, not 8.5M.

andres,

I know what interior quality means and the CTS exudes interior quality. I have never spent time looking under the seats for wiring harnesses and I doubt most buyers do either. The parts of the interior you see and touch are high quality in ALL the ways you mentioned. HAve you ever sat in one?

@andres3. The Acuras I sat in during the auto show weren't a "step up" on anything. That panel gaps on the RDX were huge (area between the door and dash on both sides) and they didn't align exactly right. The TL had hard surfaces and a few gaps as did the MDX. The press is so in love with Acura/Honda interior quality that they don't even examine the current models as thoroughly as the competition. I honestly did not get all the "hype" that this brand receives for is supposed premium interior materials.

To all: if you are looking for an excuse not to buy a certain car, you will most definitely find it.

To all: if you are unconditionally and blindly in love with a certain car, you will ignore all of its drawbacks and most definitely want to buy it.

OT: Jack Bauer commandeered a Cadillac CTS-V last night. :o)

Whoops. It was an STS-V.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-forum-2008-beyond/161236-jack-bauers-new-ride.html

1487: http://www.autonews.com/article/20090209/ANA06/902090346/-1

The past 4 months of sales annualized is 8.5 million, that's where I got my figure. Yes, some are predicting 9.8 million, but that's not what the most recent data indicates will happen.

By the way, the GM viability plan presented to Congress predicted 11.5 million in annual sales for 2009. So um....that sucks.

Oh, and regarding Toyota posting a $5 billion loss....

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/702a9bce-f41d-11dd-8e76-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

I guess they can take that out of the $30 billion dollar operating profit they had 1 year ago, the largest in automotive history.

A smart company (like smart government, for that matter) leverages the good times to be able to handle the bad.

GM is hemorraghing....can you show me a coherent, current plan they have to stop the loss?

Here's Toyota's (Nikkei subscription required):

"Toyota is scaling back output more because of an inventory glut due to the sharp drop-off in sales. It aims to cut fixed expenses, which are estimated at 7 trillion yen, by 10 percent. Capital spending could be reined in to around 700-800 billion yen, roughly half that planned for this fiscal year. 74 production lines throughout the world will be slimmed down, especially in Japan, the U.S. and Europe."

I'm not a particular fan of Toyota, outside of it being a well managed machine (huh, wonder if that culture works it's way into it's machinery). But I think my Kool-Aid is actually the clean water that pulls the wool out from in front of your eyes, good sir :)

Joe

I have to admit the new TL is disappointing in some ways and I like the 2004 model better.

I have sat in a current model CTS and I have to say its comparable to an Accord and TL; maybe falling in the middle somewhere, though I'd prefer the 2004 TL interior personally.

So no, the CTS doesn't look like complete junk, but the bones are junk, as Edmunds' own long term reviews have noted numerous problems and issues that you don't see at a glance.

CR is the bible of car reliability, what does it say about CTS? Is the data in yet?

CR is not the bible of car reliability. They give very little explanation about what actually seperates a red circle from a black circle, and the stages in between.

The bones of the CTS are junk? C'mon, grow up. It's been a great car to Edmunds and it's very early in it's life....the little things will improve.

Does anyone else feel like BMW's interior build quality has suffered in the last couple of years?

1487,
"CTS has less than average "reliability" according to CR. Bugs in the nav and carpet fitment issues. "

CR dinged 2008 CTS for
Squeaks and Rattles below average "Squeaks or rattles, seals and/or weather-stripping, air or water leaks, loose interior trim and moldings, wind noise."
Body Hardware below average "Windows, locks and latches, tailgate, hatch or trunk, sliding doors, mirrors, seat mechanism(s), seat belts, sunroof, convertible top, glass defects."

The Carpet fitment would go under "squeaks and rattles."

Nav goes under "Audio system". (CTS average)

So the Body Hardware issue is something else. I would imagine lots of people are having the non-functioning look-down side mirrors.

The Edmund's car is very representative of CR's ratings.

Let me once again try to shed some reality here. To be honest, there is nothing wrong with hard plastics. Whats important is the quality of assembly and the actual grain/texture and grade of the plastics. Ive never been in a car that didnt have hard platic somewhere, German or otherwise.

As far as the CTS is concerned, you cant pass judgment on Cadillac or GM as a whole as one car cant represent GM entirely. Who knows, this may be an isolated issue with this one CTS. I still think the CTS is a high quality car.

"So no, the CTS doesn't look like complete junk, but the bones are junk, as Edmunds' own long term reviews have noted numerous problems and issues that you don't see at a glance."

Some of you REALLY need to think about what you post here as ignorance is a disease.

Speaking of electronic gremlins, our ES330's side mirrors are supposed to tilt down when you put the car in reverse, but they almost never do. When we get the car back from the dealer, they work like they're supposed to for a few days and then stop working again, except for the occasional tilt down once every three months.

We've had the issue "fixed" several times, but have given up on it by now. The most annoying thing is that you get used to the mirrors not tilting and then when they choose that one rare moment to tilt, you're blind because you're seeing asphalt in the mirrors instead of what you expect to see.

Honda and Toyota lead the market for long term quality interior and exterior. As for the CTS, if I read the post correctly the fabric is attached to the seat therefore it can't fit snug and tight because it has to move with the seat. And how many people actually use the parking brake on a regular basis in an automatic tranny car? Most people judge interior quality by the feel of the switches and controls. Only a true auto fanatic will measure panel gaps. For years the turn signal switch of any GM car felt like it would break every time you used it. In the cheapest Japanese car, not only did the switch feel solid even the sound of the indicator in a Civic or Corolla was better than anything in a Caddy or Lincoln.

allthingshonda,
At least in Texas you MUST park with the hand parking brake on even with an auto transmission. It's illegal to just put an automatic car in Park. As taught in driver's ed.

Although it's a completely unenforceable law unless your car attracted the police for some other reason. And the officer has to remember that's the law to cha-ching get some bonus cash.

The problem with CR and other quality/reliability opinions is that they are entirely based on preconceived notions. Most people have just had it drilled into their heads that Detroit only makes crappy cars and everyone else makes unquestionably perfect cars. So when American cars are evaluated, any fault is zeroed in on as proof that they are all crap. Any time a car from our foreign saviors is evaluated, any faults are dismissed as anomalies, not in any way an indication of the perfection that is foreign cars.

The quality and reliability gap exists in perceptions only. American quality has improved by leaps and bounds, and import quality has fallen consistently. I'd take an older import over an older domestic any day, but with newer cars it is entirely model dependent. All cars will have problems. The CTS has electric gremlins, the LT Honda Ridgeline blew out all its shocks on a mild road. The Mercedes had parts falling off the sunroof assembly. American cars could meet or exceed quality and reliability of any other manufacturer, and they do, but people like Andres3 can have all the evidence possible but they'll refuse to believe a word of it. Some conditioning just sticks.

I'm still amazed that this thing is called luxury,the entire car looks like it was put together by velcro.And to think this is one of their best product ever,how bad were they? this is just lame.

Joe,

as usual your facts are off base. Where do you get this stuff? You dont come with a prediction for 2009 sales by looking at the last four months. Most people are predicting 9.5-10.5M units for this year because they expect the 2nd half of 2009 to be better than the first half. GM's estimate was made before sales tanked evern further in the last 2 months of the year and they have revised downward as has everyone else.

Toyota made about $15B last year, not $30B and experts estimate that TMC has about $18B-$20B is cash and equivalents on hand which isnt much more than Ford has and is about what GM had in 2007. It doesnt take long to fall in this type of market. Toyota is replacing its CEO and contemplating layoffs. They were not prepared for this downturn- no one was. Nissan is about to post a loss for the first time in 9 years due to this market and they are laying off 20k. Get your head out of the sand and stop believing all this nonsense about how "good" or "smart" companies are prepared for times like this.

Joe:

"GM is hemorraghing....can you show me a coherent, current plan they have to stop the loss?"

Yes, go to their site. The plan they submitted is there for all to see. You could read it or you could just continue to stay uninformed and speak as if the opposite were true. Knowing you, I'm sure you would read the plan and then come back and report that it doesn't meet your standards and they essentially have no plan.

bilt:

I saw the CR reliability issue a few weeks back. CR reports on far more than reliability but they report everything as if they are talking about mechanical defects. When they give interviews with the media and talk about "reliability" they are really talking about which cars have the lowest reported rates of annoyances. The CTS isnt unreliable, but it does have first year issues that can be addressed when the car is in for an oil change. My guess would be many of these issues were resolved by the 2009 model year. MOst of the cars in the LT fleet have had some type of minor functional or electronic issues so they likely would be unreliable by CR standards.

andres,

CR is the "bible" for people who dont understand statistics and are inclined to buy TOyotas and Hondas. Their presentation of data is misleading and their methods are pathetic. CR gets so much attention because a) they are always parading their results around to gain sales and b)they have little competition. As with most ill informed pro import types you chose to magnify the issues with this car while refusing to comment on quality issues that have surfaced on imports in IL's fleet and then want to pretend the CTS' issues are unique to American cars. These are minor issues that should be addressed during an oil change. The car is running, the HVAC Is working, the stereo/nav is working, etc. The power window issue is really the only thing that could remotely be called a significant problem but again its hard to single the CTS out when the C class had an issue with its sunroof's operation.

I have no idea how you determined the CTS is in between the Accord and TL in interior quality. Its above both. You wont find any real wood or metal or french stitching in the TL. Instead what you will find is a button fest center stack, hard plastics and 20mm gaps between the doors and dash. The TL interior is OK but its nowhere near Audi status or even CTS/SRX/STS status. The interior of every single Cadillac is superior to that of the TL from a craftsmanship and materials perspective.

toyota4life,

Since you are an expert on assembly of cars why dont you tell us what is used to put together Toyotas. All cars use bolts, glue, tape, etc. to hold certain parts together. The trick is to make sure those things never get seen by the customers. Do you really think Toyotas dont use adhesives and velcro where necessary? I would love to look under the seats and carpet of a Tundra to see whats below the surface.

allthingshonda,

It amazes me when people act like "feel" issues relate to durability. On SOME older products the feel of the stalks and switches was less refined than on some imports. This has nothing to do with functionality or durability. Thos issues have been corrected in order to alter customer perceptions but a "cheap" switch or control could be better placed or more durable than a nicer one in an unreliable car. Either way you are dealing with outdated issues. 10 years ago this was addressed with vehicles from the mid to late 90s. I have family members who had a 1998 Intrigue and the stalks operated as smoothly as those in any HOnda or Toyota. If we want to be so critical lets make sure we do it with all brands. The list of "short cuts" that were lambasted in American cars but glossed over in imports is long but a few examples would be gooseneck trunk hinges, buttons/switched that werent illuminated at night, unlined or unfinished trunks, interior doors than werent damped, rear drum brakes, lack of manumatic functions, lack of telescoping wheel, etc. You can find many a highly regarded import that lacks several of those features and no one cares. As soon as a domestic product lacks any ONE of those things is it going to be pointed out and criticized immediately. I sat in the Pilot and opened the glove box and watched it drop ungraciously and bang me on the knee. Is that what Honda quality is all about? Years back I would read that undamped glove box doors where a sign of overlooking details and American cost cutting.

1487,
That's true the CR rates the CTS as mechanically bulletproof. But Americans don't buy luxury cars to get form point A to point B, especially if it's a car like the CTS. rich people don't like to be annoyed.

bilt9,

why do rich people by MB and Audi and Jaguar products? Give me a break. This notion that people arent going to tolerate ANY issues with a luxury car is only applied when talking about Cadillacs. In CR German cars have JUST started getting reliable ratings within the last 2-3 years. At least half of the German luxury models in CR are rated lower than average in reliability. Do you see that stopping folks from handing over $40K+ for German luxury cars? Same for the Mini- its reliability hasnt been great but its owners love the cars.

Why is so hard to stop with the double standards?

All of these little issues with the parking brake and the seat trim are niggling bits and narginally unacceptable. IMO there is no need for the seat closeout as you will NEVER see the car from that angle. Unless you vacumm it yourself but then again how many owners of cars like itt would stoop so low to do such a menial task? EVERY car has little niggles in them so get over it. Its your choice as to what you can tolerate. I for one have a friend with a new CTS and has NONE of the problems Edmunds has. I would definitely buy this car over ANY german product on the market right now after owning an Audi A4 and all the major reliability issues my friend had with his 3 series Bimmer. That car had some serious design flaws that to me were unacceptable. It had a ton of electronic gremlins, emissions control problems, and a ton of creaky plastic bit that drove me insane. I was glad to get rid of trhat car after a year of ownership. Don't even get me started on my friend's 3 series! German cars are over hyped (as are most euro cars) and have equal quality to most american brands.

BTW, MT has a long term CTS as well so it will be interesting to see if they note these same issues with their car. The key to mimimizing annoyances is not having unscheduled stops AND having a dealer that addresses issues the right way and prevents repeats of those problems.

"double standards"
? Where's the double standard when German cars get smacked hard with full black marks of Worst Reliability on that models that are so?

Where's the double standard when the CTS only got Below Avg, and German cars get Worst? A 5-series has a full black mark on reliability.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/auto-test/consumer-reports-car-reliability-faq-8-06/overview/0608_consumer-reports-carreliability-faq_ov.htm#4
CR compares the reliability with other vehicles in the class. But if it's a reliable class of cars in general, the minimum deviation for a Below Avg mark is 3%+ incidence, and Worst is 4%+ incidence.
Now I don't think this entry luxury class is a reliable class, with Audi, MB, BMW in the mix. But CR does explain with 9 pages of FAQ what their ratings mean.

"By andres3 on February 10, 2009 9:38 AM

How do American cars compare to this? Not well. As I've always said, the CTS is a $15K car comparable to a Ford Focus and is simply overpriced by 3X. The quality and build just isn't there. My 2003 Accord Coupe was nicer."

Andres3 - you're WAY off base with that comment. Sorry, but you've just lost all of what little credibility you had with that idiotic comment.

It figures you would try to be so nit-picky on interiors when you spent nearly $40k for what is essentially a VW Rabbit with a nice interior. The ONLY thing the A3 has to sell is it's interior.

"It amazes me when people act like "feel" issues relate to durability. On SOME older products the feel of the stalks and switches was less refined than on some imports. This has nothing to do with functionality or durability."

1487 - I couldn't agree more. Case in point is my '99 Suburban with 178k miles. By just about all common "interior quality" subjective measurements, it has what most would consider a "cheap interior". (lots of hard plastic surfaces, GM parts-bin components all over (HVAC, radio, switches, etc.), panel gaps, plain dash design, etc.). Yet, at 11 years old and coming up on 200k miles, the interior still looks nearly new. There are no wear marks, scratches, scuffs, cracks, or anything anywhere on the interior. Nothing has ever fallen off, cracked off, or broken on the interior. The ONLY sign of some wear is on the leather of the outer edge of the front lower seat cushions, where a thin strip of fabric backing is showing through from legs constantly rubbing on it when getting in and out of the truck. That's it.

More importantly, EVERYTHING still works. My truck came fully loaded, and all of the gadgets and gizmos still work perfectly.

To me, THAT is quality and durability. Not poking a piece of new plastic and trying to see if it is squishy enough or trying to see if it flexes somewhere. Or saying "LOOK!!! I see a wire under a seat!!! Better not buy this car!!!"

1487, you said,

"Joe,

as usual your facts are off base. Where do you get this stuff? You dont come with a prediction for 2009 sales by looking at the last four months. Most people are predicting 9.5-10.5M units for this year because they expect the 2nd half of 2009 to be better than the first half. GM's estimate was made before sales tanked evern further in the last 2 months of the year and they have revised downward as has everyone else."

I actually posted links to where I get my facts. When was the last time you posted ANY links to any of your assertions? Seriously man, you make like 20 posts a day telling people why they are wrong....when was the last time you posted a link backing up your knowledge?

The 2009 predictions have steadily worsened, week after week, month after month. Annualizing the last 4 months gives a rate of 8.5 billion. You can say you "expect late 2009 sales to pick-up"....but then, all of the predictions about sales recently have been optimistic.

My point was the GM's plan (which, by the way, I read), states that their basis for operational profitability was a U.S. industry sales of 12.5-13 million units. It's on page 4 here:

"The net effect of the operational and financial restructuring elements contained in the Plan will be a company that is profitable (at an EBIT basis) in a U.S. industry with annual sales between 12.5-13 million units."

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/restructuring-plan-for-long-term-viability.pdf

Hey, look at that, a link! What a concept!

My point is, their plan for profitability involved ~20%+ more sales than are likely to occur....and that's how they got a huge cash infusion of taxpayer dollars.

Since then, they have not presented a new plan for sales of 10 million or less total units. They have given $1 billion in US taxpayer dollars to their brazilian operations. Where is your outrage man? Why are you defending them?

Then you said:
"Toyota made about $15B last year, not $30B and experts estimate that TMC has about $18B-$20B is cash and equivalents on hand which isnt much more than Ford has and is about what GM had in 2007. It doesnt take long to fall in this type of market. Toyota is replacing its CEO and contemplating layoffs. They were not prepared for this downturn- no one was. Nissan is about to post a loss for the first time in 9 years due to this market and they are laying off 20k. Get your head out of the sand and stop believing all this nonsense about how "good" or "smart" companies are prepared for times like this. "

Your first statement....I linked an article that SHOWED you (as of February 6th) that Toyota earned 30 billion last year. Now you state 15 billion, but you have no link for me? Your defenses would be much more formidable if you backed them up.

You don't even understand what I'm saying regarding being prepared for downtimes. Corporate management is about strategy for growth but that strategy involves running lean and efficient and maintaining cash reserves for bad times and/or non-organic company growth.

GM hasn't been running lean for quite awhile, hence why they have burned through their cash reserves during the boom years of ~2003-2007. Now we're in a bust and they literally just got $7 billion to keep going until....March? It's february and they haven't substantially re-negotiated labor costs/legacy costs. The bust is deepening. And Bob Lutz decided it was time to go.

Sounds like a good time for bankruptcy and re-organization to me.

Here's a quote from a 2005 business week article: "Add it all up, and the available sources of cash and saleable assets total almost $45 billion -- and that's in addition to the billions in cash on the books at GMAC. Such liquidity is crucial for a company that has started to turn cash-flow negative."

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_19/b3932013_mz001.htm

Of course, that's gone and they have had a junk bond rating for awhile now.

Since you are telling me how Toyota is no better, what is their bond rating?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CEFDF113FF930A3575AC0A96E958260

S&P places it at AAA, the highest grade. Moody's places it at AA1, one step down from the highest grade.

When you stop turning a blind eye to their violence against their own company, their employees, and our country, you'll wake-up to what they have to do to start bettering their company, their employees, and our country.

Joe

"When you stop turning a blind eye to their violence against their own company, their employees, and our country, ....."

Violence?

bilt9,

The double standard is saying that having any problems with a luxury vehicle is unacceptable when German luxury brands sell hundreds of thousands of vehicles a year. You implied that a luxury car customer isnt going to put up with annoyances in a CAdillac but they put up with annoyances and worse in German vehicles all the time. Style, feature count, performance and dealer service are even more important than reliability to many luxury customers. CR reports every year that the Vette has extremely high customer satisfaction even though they claim is very unreliable. Why is that?

CR's results are meaningless because they dont give you an incident rate, only a measure of a vehicle relative to the mean for the class. As you said, a vehicle with a 4% problem rate is "unreliable" by their standards if the average rate is 2% for that class. That makes no sense. Furthermore they count every single potential complaint or issue as a reliability problem. HAve a squeak? Your car is unreliable. Brakes get warped at 25k miles? Unreliable. Nav system acting up? Unreliable. Those are not mechanical reliability issues.

Joe,

You seem unable to follow simple arguments. I am not stupid enough to claim that GM and Toyota are in the SAME financial condition. I question your intelligence if you even THOUGHT I said that. I said that Toyota's cash reserves are pretty close to Ford's right now and close to what GM had within the last 2 years. My point was that if the business is going poorly you can burn through cash VERy quickly so I wouldnt go around bragging about Toyota's great position. Toyota has revised its yearly projection 2 or 3 times in the last few months and every time they downgrade their estimate. A few weeks ago they were saying a $1.7B loss and now its a $3.9B loss. Furthermore as recently as last summer they were projecting a $6B profit which suggests they have lost a LOT in the last 6-8 months.

I checked the link you provided and saw nothing about ua $30B profit. Check this out:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009902070336

You're right, I never back anything up. I am just pulling numbers out of thin air.

"GM hasn't been running lean for quite awhile, hence why they have burned through their cash reserves during the boom years of ~2003-2007. Now we're in a bust and they literally just got $7 billion to keep going until....March? It's february and they haven't substantially re-negotiated labor costs/legacy costs. The bust is deepening. And Bob Lutz decided it was time to go."

More cluelessness. Stop making things up. They are burning through cash because of their large fixed costs and declining revenues. They have had all of two months to deal with the issues laid out in the documents submitted to congress. Labor costs arent really going to be much of an issue because they took care of that in the 2007 contract. The jobs bank is also gone as of a few weeks ago. Legacy costs cannot be negotiated away because they were guaranteed by contracts. You just cant void a contract due to a bad economy. Even the Republicans in the Senate said they didnt expect GM to take anything away from retirees. Bob Lutz retired because 1) he is old and 2)he couldnt stand the idea of some know nothing from Wall Street being named "car czar" and telling GM how to make cars. I dont blame him for leaving.

"Hey, look at that, a link! What a concept!

My point is, their plan for profitability involved ~20%+ more sales than are likely to occur....and that's how they got a huge cash infusion of taxpayer dollars.

Since then, they have not presented a new plan for sales of 10 million or less total units. They have given $1 billion in US taxpayer dollars to their brazilian operations. Where is your outrage man? Why are you defending them?"

The plan was submitted when many thought sales would be in the 12-13m range for 2009. Ford and others had similar estimates. EVERYONE is downgrading their estimates based on how bad things were in December and January. This is a fluid situation and anyone with any common sense can see that. EVERYONE'S estimates are changing by the month as the market deteriorates. I get outraged when people tell half truths in order to push an agenda. Try that with the uninitiated, but not with me. I am aware of the facts so you cant convince me you are an expert because you throw up a few links and bad numbers. No major automaker in the US is going to be profitable if sales stay at 10M units a year. Its bad for GM and your beloved Toyota as well. To say GM is inept and should file for Chap 11 because they cant make money in an environment where sales are down 40% from normal levels is the height of stupidity. If Toyota cant make money in the US market at this depressed level than GM cant be blamed for being in the same predicament.

Say it aint so Joe:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009902060408

Article clearly states GM made $4B in the last quarter of 2007. HOw in the world would they have made $30B in a year but only $4B in a quarter?

This article states profits were $16.5B in year ending MArch 2008.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-05-08-toyota_N.htm

http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/17/toyota-profits-decline-markets-equity-cx_jc_0417markets02.html

"Article clearly states GM made $4B in the last quarter of 2007. "

meant Toyota, not GM obviously

what I hate the most about some of the posters here is that they always try to point fingers at other manufacturers whenever their beloved brand is under scrutiny. The seat wiring looks like shit on the CTS. It's a bad design and build quality. Period. The topic here on CTS people, not 5-series or A3s or anything else! I don't want to hear your whining about shitty honda interiors (Honda Pilot is now officially my most hated car of all time. the interior in that piece of garbage is worse than the ones in little Hot Wheels cars) or toyota stalks.

Man up and stop whining! When there is a time to talk about reliability/quality/design of germans, we will talk about germans, but right now we're talking about the CTS! We know you love this car and will try to defend it at every corner, but you only make yourself look like silly little boys crying to their parents "oh, but the other guys have bad designs too..!"

1487 - The financial times link I provided showed the toyota profit in Yen; a conversion shows where I got $30 billion from...

Here's another: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/toyota-expects-16311bn-loss-a-year-after-record-profits-1208602.html

"It made a record profit of Y2.27 trn only last year." (article written in 2008)

And yes, I realize that numbers do change based upon exchange rates and tax position. I've seen it a few places, and I've seen $14-16 billion a few places. I guess take it for what it's worth. Seems like there is disagreeable information out there.

1487 said, "I am not stupid enough to claim that GM and Toyota are in the SAME financial condition. I question your intelligence if you even THOUGHT I said that."

That's called a straw man argument. You make something up to knock down, trying to make yourself sound good in the process. Can you point out where I said you claimed GM and Toyota are in the same financial condition?

I said that Toyota has been much better managed and is therefore much better positioned to weather this storm.

This isn't a Toyota lovefest on my part, it's my way of pointing out to people who defend GM what they have wrought. I use Toyota to compare them to because they have almost equal worldwide revenue. Toyota JUST overcame GM, so that implies they are pretty darn close.

1487 - "To say GM is inept and should file for Chap 11 because they cant make money in an environment where sales are down 40% from normal levels is the height of stupidity."

Oh, I'm sorry, did they just now start operating at a loss?

My agenda, as you put it, is to get people to stop defending their behavior. So far, they have received $7 billion in direct funds and $25 billion in loan guarantees...and we're only at the beginning of the slump in car sales.

At what point do we cut them off? At what point do we stop the debt-growth?

That is my question.

I think that you call me a Toyota-Lover because you haven't yet come to grips with this situation (I like how you threw "beloved toyota" out as an insult....typically a sign of a weak argument).

Good luck with that :)

Joe

I'll sure be glad when GM goes Tango Uniform. Some heads will be exploding left and right around here.
Can't wait!

>but you only make yourself look like silly >little boys crying to their parents "oh, but the >other guys have bad designs too..!"

Yes, but that's the only argument left to make...

that's not even an argument

Everyone is struggling right now. Never before has something like Circuit City shutting down been indicative of the current situation of nearly every large company in America.

The only auto companies that have actually gained a good amount of money during this slump have been Subaru and Mazda, mainly because they are smaller companies and don't have to deal with the huge financial burden that comes with turning out such a large amount of cars.

I read an article recently that was written by GM (and no, I don't have a link. Sue me.). The article was an advertisement for the Chevy Suburban in early 2008 and stated that the Suburban was the "right car for families in these times". GM's attitude has clearly changed since then, but this is the kind of thing that got them into the mess they are dealing with in the first place. GM and Toyota are both struggling, but this situation has been twice as hard for GM because they were struggling for years before this recession with a laundry list of cars that were uncompetitive and behind the times (the Cavalier, Cobalt, Ion, old Vue, old Equinox, LaCrosse, Rendezvous, Town Car, etc. come to mind).

The mistake that people make when trying to decide who the "better" car company is to look at their current situation (how much money they lost, govn't bailouts, etc.) rather than the past. Everyone is currently struggling, so that is an irrelevant argument and a waste of time. Instead, it is important to look at the past. GM wants to forget the past because it is the whole reason they are worse off than anyone else in this current situation. Why do you think they introduced the 100k warranty recently? Honda and Toyota have a past that has allowed them to build up a reputation for quality, and this has allowed them to ride out this current wave rather than get swallowed by it.

If Toyota didn't have that reputation, they'd be just as screwed as GM is right now because their cars are no better than the majority of what's coming out of Dearborn. Toyota builds cars that are competitive, but in this current day and age reliability and quality is becoming more and more equal throughout every car brand. It's the perception of the consumer that matters. Hyundai is a perfect example, and GM, Ford, and even Toyota could learn a thing or two from them about how to restructure and revitalize a company. Hyundai, IMO, is the poster child for what to do when times get tough...especially with the new Assurance program.

I'm all for living in the moment, but in this case, it's the past that matters most.

And by Dearborn I meant Detroit, too. Not just Ford.

Wow, over 90 posts because a piece of velcro became unstuck!

Imagine if something actually broke!

"Wow, over 90 posts because a piece of velcro became unstuck!

Imagine if something actually broke!"

I prefer manual seats anyways. Though my seats have heaters, so there must be some wiring going to them...but I've never seen it.

ctpax,

You need to calm down and watch your language. Who said the exposed wiring looked good or shouldnt be fixed? No one. everything was fine until a few people popped up with the predictable "see, thats why I would never buy an American car, they just dont get it" comments. You cannot criticize cars in a vacuum. YOur suggestion that we cant mention similar cars when talking about the CTS is absurd. If every car sold today was perfect EXCEPT for the CTS your comments would make some sense. Since that's not the case they do not. What are saying is that when a problem arises on brand of car you dont like you want everyone to focus their ire on that car and not mention imperfection on other cars.

"That's called a straw man argument. You make something up to knock down, trying to make yourself sound good in the process. Can you point out where I said you claimed GM and Toyota are in the same financial condition?"

Sure.

"First off, they are losing volume sales since we have shrank to about 8.5 million new sales instead of the old 11-12 million. Second, it's not "reduced to"....it's a great place to be when your primary competitor is shrinking faster than you, you have sufficient reserves to last through the crisis, and your overall strategy is working well. It means you come out on top when things perk back up. "

"Oh, and regarding Toyota posting a $5 billion loss....

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/702a9bce-f41d-11dd-8e76-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

I guess they can take that out of the $30 billion dollar operating profit they had 1 year ago, the largest in automotive history."

Seems to me you were inferring that I was equating GM and Toyota's position today. Perhaps I was wrong. Toyota is in better financial shape but as of today both automakers are looking at a terrible market and billions in losses for the next few years. My entire point is that your suggestion that Toyota's stellar management means it is essentially recession proof is a crock. When you swing from a $16B profit to $4B loss in ONE YEAR that represents management errors in some way, shape or form.

"Oh, I'm sorry, did they just now start operating at a loss? "

No genius, but you cannot evaluate a management team's plan for recovery in a market down 30% when they dont have the revenue to execute the plan. If the market was normal and GM was treading water perhaps I could get down with your bankruptcy fetish. This is not the market where you make a definitive call on whether or not a turn around plan is effective. You have a clear position on government loans and are rooting for Chap. 11. That is your choice but you are manipulating facts or outright lying to support your case. You implied that Toyota is better than GM because they admitted to subpar quality. Where have you been for the last 7-10 years? Lutz joined GM in 2001 and was talking about GM missing the target on design and quality from day one. What world are you living in? You keep repeating that no one is admitting to any mistakes but you dont tell us who you are talking about. Wagoner? He played his part and gave the obligatory apologies to congress even though much of what they were attacking him about happened under the watch of his predecessors. Wagoner can only answer for what he has done, not mistakes from the 70s and 80s or even 90s. Just tell me the names of all these big bad GM execs who have claimed their product has ALWAYS been top notch and they have made no mistakes. If you chose to ignore what is going on (I doubt you actually pay attention to anything GM does) you really arent in a position to comment authoritatively on what has and hasnt been said or done.

You expressed your adoraton for Toyota's business acumen in numerous above posts. I noted that your "beloved" Toyota is losing billions and you respond by saying that was a sign of a weak argument and imply you really don't care about Toyota. Are you serious? You outlined how their management model was infallable and how GM is a failure because they dont mimic that (which is a lie BTW) but then duck for cover by mentioning you really dont care for Toyota products. I simply want you to reconcile your claims that Toyota has the best management with the fact that Toyota is facing the largest loss of any foreign owned automaker. That's all I want from you. If they are so smart why are they projected to lose more than Honda, Nissan and the major European automakers?

"We know you love this car and will try to defend it at every corner, but you only make yourself look like silly little boys crying to their parents "oh, but the other guys have bad designs too..!"

what is silly is pretending that there are perfect cars on the marketplace whenever you are posting about a car you dont like. Thats silly. As is using profanity when you cant articulate intelligent or cogent thoughts. Grow up. I hope you have as much to say the next time a Honda ends up with a failed transmission and needs to be towed. I'll be looking for you. I'm sure you'll be in there with tons of excuses and assurances that the worst Honda is still 10 times more reliable than anything from Detroit. Funny how that stuff works.

"I'll sure be glad when GM goes Tango Uniform. Some heads will be exploding left and right around here.
Can't wait!"

I hope all three survive primarily because I know it annoys people like you, BDCguy and Tom Freidman so much. If it takes another $20B in loans so be it. Matter of fact the more money they get the more I know it will drive you crazy so I hope the government wallets opens wide one more time. Its a pittance compared to what banks got anyway. The banks put the auto industry in this situation and yet people like Joe are primarily concerned about punishing the auto companies. I dont get it. If a crazed fan shoots Lebron in the leg during the playoffs people like Joe would be criticizing James for not being able to perform and costing his team the title. Its crazy.

1487 said, "That is your choice but you are manipulating facts or outright lying to support your case."

This statement made me done with you in this post.

The one place you actually clearly called me out ($30 billion profit vs. $15 billion of Toyota), I posted multiple links about which highlighted the conflict. I even said there were probably different ways utilized to measure the profit, resulting in the disprepancy. But you state that I'm manipulating facts or outright lying....you are so utterly intellectually dishonest with yourself. Take off your "attack hat" for a moment to realize that I've always either A. backed up my factoids or B. Backed down from the claim if there is a lack of evidence.

1487 said "I simply want you to reconcile your claims that Toyota has the best management with the fact that Toyota is facing the largest loss of any foreign owned automaker. That's all I want from you."

I admire Toyota's management (especially that their own senior leadership takes less compensation home than Rick Wagoner by himself, during years where Toyota was growing and GM was slowing). I used Toyota as a comparison due to their just taking over GM as world's largest.

Since all you want from me is a reason they are facing the largest loss of any foreign owned automaker, how about this: They are the biggest and stand to lose the most in a down market. It's not a mystery, and I don't claim superior management can avoid losses in a recession. Superior management, however, can quickly become leaner and more efficient during such a recession.

Let me ask you something: Since they stand to lose the most (Toyota vs. Nissan/Honda/etc.), how does that compare to the market capitalization? What is the the ratio of their projected loss vs. their total revenue? How does that compare, since raw numbers (i.e. a $5 billion dollar loss) means nothing without context.

Lastly, you continually assume to things:

1. That the recession is the reason this is happening (i.e. your metaphor of Lebron James). It's not. It's just accelerated the downward spiral.

2.I want the "big 2.8" to fail. I don't. I think GM can pull a Phoenix-act with Chap 11, if done right. I think Ford is well positioned right now and has done a great turnaround. I won't touch upon Chrysler. I think GM and Ford turning around would be a tremendous boon for our country, the world, and automotives in general (competition breeds innovation and success). I merely think that bailing them out is a great way to perform a socialistic exercise on a private company/and a union who pay for massive amount of lobbying, instead of using established means of handling such a company.

Ironically, we are arguing for the same thing. We want them to succeed. We just blame different facets.

I look forward to your response to my question, and I'm sure we'll continue to replying to each other in other threads. For now though, I'm done with this one due to you calling me a liar several times without cause.

Joe

I think Edmunds should host a round table debate so we can her these arguments in person. I bet it would be interesting.

Ah yes, we've got 1487 pacing his living room again. I'd think driving an Aura would provide a sense of complete tranquility. At least until GM totally tanks and closes/sells off Saturn.
I wonder if he ever runs into the next room and tells his Mom how much we bother him...

You get what you pay for. The CTS is a cheaper knock off German sports sedan and it behaves that way. Personally I wouldn't want to be reminded that I bought a knock off, the badge, the styling, that flimsy carpet and the exposed wiring would do so on a daily basis so no thank you.

"I merely think that bailing them out is a great way to perform a socialistic exercise on a private company/and a union who pay for massive amount of lobbying, instead of using established means of handling such a company."

Exactly. If GM can't survive Chapter 11 it deserves to fail. Ditto for Chrysler. If Ford is the last domestic left standing it sure won't be the end of the world.

joe,

This is more than a recession, this is an environment where credit has dried up. I have read enough of your posts to know what you are a master of oversimplification and tunnel vision. To state that GM (or the others) would be in this predicament without the recession and credit problems is so asanine and absurd that I can't believe you are serious. GM has been around for 100 years and even in bad times they NEVER asked the government for a loan. This particular crisis is unique and it hitting all automakers in the worst way. Many are saying that within 2 years or so several major automakers will either cease to exist or be fored to merge.

Its hard to discuss complex issues with people who only view things in a vacuum. I've heard the stupid compensation arguments before. Its a cultural thing, not a GM thing. Wake up. Execs in Japan do not earn as much as execs here, period. They consider it inappropriate to earn 1000 times what their average workers do, but thats not the case her. Wagoner cut his salary in half to 1.1M a few years ago. If I'm not mistaken thats close to what Toyota's top guy makes. If GM was based on Tokyo your comparison would make more sense. I bet the pay of the top CEOs in the US dwarfs that of the top CEOs in Japan in every single industry.

"Superior management, however, can quickly become leaner and more efficient during such a recession. "

What is GM (and Ford) management doing as we speak? What proof do you have that they are not right-sizing operations in this downturn? HAve you not noticed all the plant closings and layoffs and cost reductions? One reason why you have such outdated perceptions is that you obviously are not tuned in to current events regarding the auto industry. You are spewing the same type of stuff that we've heard since the 80s. It was accurate in the 80s, but not in 2009. Catch up. People with your views constantly move the target to avoid acknowledging not everything that is happening can be blamed on management. Last year it was "at least Toyota makes billions a year". It then changed to "some profit is better than a loss" once trouble surfaced. Now I'm hearing "well they are losing billions but at least they arent asking for a loan". The argument was made my many people that sound like yourself that companies that make the products people want to buy do well, period. By that standard Toyota must have poor management ang low quality, gas guzzling products. Their financial results say it all. You cant have it both ways. Now you are saying "they are doing poorly, but their superior management will lead them out of this in better shape than GM". How do you know that? Toyota currently pays workers who arent assembling cars and has done NOTHING to reduce its manufacturing capacity in recent years. GM and Ford have been moving in the opposite direction. Which approach seems best in terms of weathering this recession and growing leaner? You tell me.

roadburner,

You dont really bother me that much. And who is this "we"? You seem to enjoy believing you are at the helm of some dimwitted group whose only bond is that they want to remind the world that its dangerous and stupid to buy any cars not made foreign manufacturers. You never add anythign of substance here. YOu wait for others to fight your battles and then chime in with simple minded one liners that essentially say "this guy has to be stupid because he drives a Saturn!!". You are kind of like a bully with poor grades who tries to make fun of people on honor roll in order to disguise your own insecurities and weaknesses. if you feel that repeating what car I own helps make you look better please carry on. Your comments are really witty enough to actually be offensive. You only disgrace yourself with the childish antics.

"Let me ask you something: Since they stand to lose the most (Toyota vs. Nissan/Honda/etc.), how does that compare to the market capitalization? What is the the ratio of their projected loss vs. their total revenue? How does that compare, since raw numbers (i.e. a $5 billion dollar loss) means nothing without context."

Since you are the link master I'm sure you can find something on that. Honda is projecting a profit (small) while Toyota is projecting a loss of $4B. Toyota is much larger than Honda but not 2 or 3 times larger. I think Honda sells 5-6M vehicles a year while Toyota sold over 8 million last year. Nissan's loss may be proportional to sales relative to Toyota. The real issue is comparing Toyota to companies that will report some profit on far less revenue than Toyota recorded.

Chap. 11 wont work and is merely a solution pushed by people who want to see a few US automakers dissolve and have their share absorbed by Toyota and others. Why do you think Sen. Shelby wanted to see it happen? It would help the plants in his district. Spare me the union bashing as well. The UAW has made all the concessions analysts said the Big 3 needed and startting next year the new hires will make less than those working in Toyota/Honda plants. I have heard this argument about the bailout being tied to the UAW political clout but that isnt grounded in reality. What friends of the UAW did you see in Congress last fall? I saw none. Members of both parties were ripping the Big 3 for not having their costs in line with competitors and no one advoctad for the unions. When politicians are telling you to right size your business and "get lean" they are telling you to fire workers and cut costs. Does that sound like a pro UAW position to you?

"You need to calm down and watch your language."

OMG... You serious? So now you are policing this forum because I said the wiring on the CTS looks like shit? Really? Is that all you have to say when you're desperately losing another argument? You are gullible at best. Your mindless half assed attempts to disguise your written diarrhea of words as arguments is far more offensive than anything else you can read on this page.

"YOur suggestion that we cant mention similar cars when talking about the CTS is absurd. If every car sold today was perfect EXCEPT for the CTS your comments would make some sense. Since that's not the case they do not. What are saying is that when a problem arises on brand of car you dont like you want everyone to focus their ire on that car and not mention imperfection on other cars."

I said man up already. The focus is ON CTS. You're acting like a little child when crying about other manufacturers.

"what is silly is pretending that there are perfect cars on the marketplace whenever you are posting about a car you dont like."

No that's not what I said, but what is even sillier is your attempts to attack a poster for something he never said.

"Grow up. I hope you have as much to say the next time a Honda ends up with a failed transmission and needs to be towed. I'll be looking for you. I'm sure you'll be in there with tons of excuses and assurances that the worst Honda is still 10 times more reliable than anything from Detroit. Funny how that stuff works."

Wow, you are either a 10 o.y. boy or a 80 y.o. senile old man. Congratulations, you've lost another argument.

"Congratulations, you've lost another argument."

LOL... you guys sound like an old married couple.

It official. We have WAY too many bloggers here now.

"You dont really bother me that much. And who is this "we"? You seem to enjoy believing you are at the helm of some dimwitted group whose only bond is that they want to remind the world that its dangerous and stupid to buy any cars not made foreign manufacturers. You never add anythign[sic] of substance here."

Whoops, I guess I hit another nerve. Please point out where I've ever said that it's dangerous and stupid to own US built cars. I even own one. And I might buy another if the UAW is finally broken and/or implodes.

"YOu[sic] wait for others to fight your battles and then chime in with simple minded one liners that essentially say "this guy has to be stupid because he drives a Saturn!!"."

I don't need to do that; you make that salient point without any assistance from me whatsoever.

"You are kind of like a bully with poor grades who tries to make fun of people on honor roll in order to disguise your own insecurities and weaknesses. if you feel that repeating what car I own helps make you look better please carry on. Your comments are really witty enough to actually be offensive. You only disgrace yourself with the childish antics."

Thank you Dr. Freud! It actually sounds like you are letting a little bit of your personal history creep into the discussion. In any event, I enjoy your diatribes, and I hope they continue- as do quite a few others on several other message boards.

@ roadburner,

Yeah 1487 is right, it was really unnecessary for you to call out what he drives, everybody here knows that he drives a Saturn Aura anyways...

"everybody here knows that he drives a Saturn Aura anyways..."

Must be hard to be driving a brand that is about to go EX-TINCT,and if GM keep producing crap! like this CTS Cadillac will follow.

"and if GM keep producing crap! like this CTS Cadillac will follow."

you haven't driven one, have you?

The CTS drives far better then anything Toyota builds so I would't mind putting up with a bit of loose velcro.

Actually that's not really fair since I haven't driven any of the latest Lexus products.

I did put a lot of miles on a CTS last summer and anyone who thinks it's crap is out of touch with reality.

"Actually that's not really fair since I haven't driven any of the latest Lexus products. "

This line saved you because I was about to reply with only 3 letters...

IS F

; )

estreka

What??????????? Too many bloggers?

Anyway, I was reading the CTS forum, and they're having their own share of big problems. Like that vibration. Not surprising. They can make it look like a nice package, but when you bring it home for a year it starts to show that it was under developed.

Many first year cars are "underdeveloped".
The Great CR gave the All-New 2007 Lexus LS460 a full black circle, Worst for Squeaks and Rattles.
The Lexus LS460.
Worst Squeaks and Rattles. Ever.

1487, I'm pleasantly surprised that you didn't have anything to say to my post. Maybe we are getting somewhere after all, or maybe you just didn't read it and I'm making a fool out of myself. :-)

Firstly, I'm amused at all the jingoistic crosstalk you guys profess. I have been a victum of several brands-foreign and domestic-over my forty years of vehicle ownership. As such ANY brand can possibly do harm to you monetarily or psychologically. I have driven scores of cars, owned 15. 5 domestic. 5 Japanese. 5 European. None were perfect. The two I have now have more than half of a million miles or so between them: 356,000 on my 1983 Mercedes, and 245,900 on my 1982 Datsun-easily two of the best cars an individual can own in terms of upkeep and insurance. Oh, I know, those of you who have gotten similar utility on either your traditional domestic or your imported cars can always crow about yours being better than the other guy-SO WHAT! No car company is perfect, why go on proselytizing when you KNOW you're not going to convince the other guy that his obstinant opinion is wrong.
This model of Cadillac is based upon a shared platform that underpins a few European models: the Saab 9-3 and Opel Antera, as well as the Saturn Aura sold here. Shared platforms save development costs, but sometimes little details slip by. For me, the exposed wiring would turn me off and prompt me to think someone assembled the car at the end of a shift or similar circumstance and maybe just didn't feel the need to correct it; or maybe dealer prep overlooked it. Either way, these things happen to the shagrin of both the auto makers and potential end user.
Mistakes like this SHOULD NOT be glossed over as what may seem trivial to the guy with 200K on his GM produced truck, could be a safety hazard in the making. Usually, this type of error is innocuous. So, you guys-GET A LIFE!

"Whoops, I guess I hit another nerve. Please point out where I've ever said that it's dangerous and stupid to own US built cars. I even own one. And I might buy another if the UAW is finally broken and/or implodes."

1. Toyota workers make about as much as UAW workers
2. You didnt hit a nerve this time or any other
3. I'm impressed that you were able to respond without trying to dismiss me based on the fact that I drive an inferior brand of car. Progress is beautiful as Audi likes to say.

"I don't need to do that; you make that salient point without any assistance from me whatsoever."

Not really. YOu may not agree with me, but you know I'm not stupid. I dont believe any half intelligent person here believes that. Again, in your own world "no one" understands or concurs with what I am saying but sadly (for you) your world is not the real one. You imply that I'm off base and yet the current issue of Automobile magazine has a letter I wrote to Jamie Kitman. I guess someone forgot to tell them I make no sense.

"1487, I'm pleasantly surprised that you didn't have anything to say to my post. Maybe we are getting somewhere after all, or maybe you just didn't read it and I'm making a fool out of myself. :-)"

I didnt see a problem with anything you wrote. Seemed pretty logical to me.

"Wow, you are either a 10 o.y. boy or a 80 y.o. senile old man. Congratulations, you've lost another argument."

Well if ctpax says so it MUST be true. Guess I better retire since he has determined I "lost" another one.

picky,

This car does not share a platform with any European model or the Aura. Also, the wires are only exposed because they removed the cover after it came loose from the bottom of the seat. IF the cover was in its proper position you wouldnt see wires. I have probably been in 5 or 6 CTS' at various autoshows and I have never seen wires under the seats.

"You imply that I'm off base and yet the current issue of Automobile magazine has a letter I wrote to Jamie Kitman. I guess someone forgot to tell them I make no sense."

Wow; I've only been quoted by Automobile, Autoweek, and the Detroit News.