This week's textcast gets to the heart of the recent 135i vs. M3 brouhaha. Eventually. We promise. Click on the photos to enlarge.
(1:58:52 PM) Sadlier: Legacy GT: best car subaru makes. and quite possibly the best-handling family sedan, period. despite body roll and gooey steering. tell me why i'm wrong
(2:07:14 PM) Magrath: I'll agree that it's the best car they make now that the Forester has jumped the shark.
(2:08:07 PM) Magrath: As for the rest of your nonsense, self-contradictory nonsense....well, it's just not right.
(2:09:07 PM) Sadlier: seriously, all that suspension needs is some firming-up. it feels like they started with a sport sedan and dumbed it down for americans
(2:09:41 PM) Magrath: ...some firming up and some being better at being AWD.
(2:09:45 PM) Sadlier: how so?
(2:10:31 PM) Magrath: It doesn't rotate off throttle. It plows or oversteers. There's no middle ground that a good AWD setup can usually find. It was one of those things that I was glad was verified by the test data because I just thought I was bad at driving it.
(2:11:43 PM) Sadlier: well, i definitely tossed it around with more abandon than any previous family sedan. you know what it reminded me of -- a softer and less sharp but more entertaining A4
(2:20:55 PM) Magrath: More entertaining = less stable? You're quickly falling down the hole of "less confidence means more fun!"
(2:21:30 PM) Sadlier: that's my motto. the less confidence the better
(2:21:34 PM) Magrath: Soon you'll have a '65 mustang with one seat, no carpeting, bias-ply tires and no seatbelts.
(2:21:47 PM) Sadlier: now that sounds entertaining
(2:25:39 PM) Magrath: In what way? Honest question.
(2:26:54 PM) Sadlier: well, i suppose not in any way that would involve an accident (seatbelts)
(2:27:08 PM) Sadlier: maybe just doing donuts in my high-school parking lot
(2:28:43 PM) Magrath
: Ok, that I'll buy. But let's go back to 135 vs. M3 for a moment: Why wouldn't you give up 2% of feel for 104% performance + 120% better ride? I feel this way about most classics.
(2:29:08 PM) Sadlier
: wait, the 135 has a 20% better ride than M3?
(2:29:36 PM) Magrath
: Well, all things combined. Not on the highway with the Sumitomos
.
(2:29:44 PM) Sadlier
: actually, with the sumitomos, i think M3=135, basically. 135's ride is no great shakes. when the M3 had the previous tires, sure, 135 rode better
(2:30:03 PM) Magrath
: and I'm talking manual sport seats on 135, not our crap seats, so i guess in an apples-apples long term comparison, the odds are stacked for the M3.
(2:30:20 PM) Sadlier
: honestly the M3 for me is at least 60% about the engine and transmission combo. i would fall for just about anything with four wheels and that powertrain. it also helps that the seat fits perfectly and the center stack is nicely designed, and that the styling's great and the handling is superb
(2:31:26 PM) Sadlier
: though it could do with some new bushings or something to fix the on-center looseness in the steering
(2:31:32 PM) Magrath
: You mean the beat-to-hell transmission that can barely swap cogs? Or the beat to hell shifter that has no spring tension left? Or the beat to hell engine that burns a quart of oil a month and sounds like a clip of "will it blend" at high rpm and has no torque?
(2:31:40 PM) Sadlier
: what can I say, that powertrain and i are just on the same page
(2:32:21 PM) Sadlier
: also, i have to take issue with your M3 clutch-bashing of late. yes it's got that wonky dead travel at the bottom 2 inches, but i don't think it feels like it's about to break. in fact it feels quite robust to me
(2:33:10 PM) Magrath
: Did you read the comments by Jacquot on the M3's test of the Sumitomos? We've held off testing that a few times for fear of the well-worn clutch. There can't be more than a few months left in that thing's life.
(2:33:25 PM) Sadlier
: yeah, what did he write..."must not slip clutch," he said
(2:33:57 PM) Magrath
: That or "must not break clutch"
(2:34:02 PM) Sadlier
: ha. don't see that in the comments. that's interesting though...i guess i like my M3 clutches well-worn
(2:35:01 PM) Magrath
: It's not, in all fairness, as bad as the GSR
's clutch...now that thing is on last legs.
(2:35:13 PM) Sadlier
: yes, that one is about done. and i didn't care for it even when it wasn't about done. for what i do with the M3 though -- medium-aggressive launches, redline upshifts, matching revs on downshifts -- the clutch is on the money
(2:36:20 PM) Magrath
: A worn clutch would help with all of those things. It'll slip more, allowing a smoother transition. A new, correctly operating clutch is less forgiving.
(2:36:42 PM) Sadlier
: well, hell. may it forever teeter on the brink of death
(2:40:39 PM) Sadlier
: also, your "no torque" assessment of the S54 above is of course an exaggeration. unless i am, say, trying to keep up with a violently modded Evo GSR on a tight road [future textcast teaser -- Ed.
], i'm always pleasantly surprised by how much the S54 has in the low-to-midrange given its sky-high redline. yes, you need to downshift to get serious (unlike the 135 and its yawn-inducing torque plateau), but if you're only kind of serious, the M3 moves out pretty well from 3k rpm
(2:42:51 PM) Sadlier
: i mean, you could levy the same "no torque" accusation against the R8. its power delivery is quite similar to the M3's. doesn't mean the engine therefore doesn't kick ass
(2:44:13 PM) Magrath
: yeah, the no torque comment is hyperbole, but the M3 does require more shifting than the 135.
(2:44:22 PM) Sadlier
: yes, which i prefer. that was i believe my first comment when i returned from my initial drive in the 135 -- "shifting is optional." i'd rather it be mandatory
(2:44:56 PM) Magrath
: Why?
(2:45:16 PM) Sadlier
: i guess for the same reason i want a stick rather than an automatic. i want the car to demand my attention
(2:45:44 PM) Sadlier
: within reason, of course. after the M3/R8, i don't miss my old Integra GSR and its 6k-or-nothing powerband. but i think the M3/R8 are pretty much the pinnacle, in our fleet at least, as far as demanding driver attention without being overly high-strung (shame about R tronic though)
(2:46:13 PM) Sadlier
: and also as far as being really fast and sounding great
(2:49:11 PM) Magrath
: But why is your attention in that arena? Steering and braking require 10X more skill (especially braking) than shifting but get no love. I think it's because "car guys" have become snobs. Not everyone can drive a stick, therefore knowing how to drive one supposedly means you're a better driver. It doesn't. It's the curse of hubris. The less attention you have to pay to shifting gears (which a computer can do better, faster and more consistently -- racecars go faster with manumatics), the more you can devote to steering, braking and acceleration.
(2:50:16 PM) Sadlier
: yes, and so if my life depended on making the best number around a track, i would select PDK or what-have-you without a second thought. but my life has never depended on making the best number around a track. that being the case, i happen to get more enjoyment out of shifting for myself (and, as in the M3, shifting relatively often), hence my preference for stickshifts hooked to n/a engines with high redlines
(2:52:15 PM) Magrath
: Point being, what a good, torque-rich engine -- or a well-sorted automaticky thing-- allows a driver to do is focus on driving and not on the mechanics of how a car works.
(2:52:28 PM) Sadlier
: i would actually disagree with that somewhat. i would say that a torque-rich engine allows a driver to be lazy or inattentive without serious repercussions
(2:53:04 PM) Sadlier
: where "serious" = speed-scrubbing, momentum-killing. a higher-strung engine demands more thinking before the corner, and punishes you more if you didn't think enough. there's an almost athletic challenge in keeping up with an engine like that, and i enjoy it
(2:59:52 PM) Magrath
: Conservation of momentum. Congratulations, you could be a Miata racer with that mentality.
(3:01:23 PM) Sadlier
: though please note that i do enjoy low-end torque. it's good for laying patches
, and other antisocial activities
(3:01:49 PM) Magrath
: ..and I enjoy high-rpm NA motors. Much moreso than turbo ones. Or big lumpy pushrods.
(3:02:27 PM) Magrath
: But there's a quality to the turbo mills, and to the pushrods, that makes them better all around-real world cars.
(3:02:44 PM) Sadlier
: well, for people who drive like real-world drivers, yes, i.e. people who shift at 3k rpm and are always half paying attention to something else. for them, a twin-scroll turbo six or pushrod V8 will make life easier
(3:04:16 PM) Magrath
: No, for people who drive like real-world drivers AND like enthusiasts....if I had just a toy that I towed or left at the track, it would have a screaming NA motor, but around here you have to slog through traffic to get to fun.
(3:04:28 PM) Sadlier
: ...and as noted, the S54 is perfectly adequate for squirting through traffic at low-to-mid rpm
(3:05:42 PM) Sadlier
: but wait a minute, rewind the tape. if you like high-rpm n/a motors more than turbos or pushrods, then what's above high-rpm n/a motors in your pecking order? given all your grousing about the S54, you must ultimately prefer a different genre
(3:06:53 PM) Magrath
: As far as personal preference goes? Nothing. Well, a high RPM turbo is nice, but I love a fast, responsive NA motor.
(3:07:12 PM) Sadlier
: but...but what n/a motor, within reason, is faster and more responsive than the S54?!
(3:07:47 PM) Sadlier
: i.e. the engine you have likened to...what was it? a blender? spinning itself into oblivion?
(3:08:32 PM) Magrath
: Actually the R8's 4.2 V8 is my favorite motor when hooked to a manual transmission. And yes, I'm aware that this statement may invalidate everything I've said in the past hour. Shove that in your Logic book!
msdaisy says:
06:18 PM, 02/20/09
Would it be too much to ask to remove the timestamps and use floating name-tags so we don't see something like:
Sadlier:
Sadlier:
Sadlier:
Sadlier:
Sadlier:
Sadlier:
Kind of difficult to read in this format >:o
SadButTrue says:
06:26 PM, 02/20/09
msdaisy,
Excellent point. Reminds me of Malkovich entering his own head in Being John Malkovich. I tried to clean it up a bit.
Suggestions always welcome.
-Josh
huyracing says:
06:56 PM, 02/20/09
I like power and turbo engines respond well to mods. The N54 aftermarket is growing... there are guys running 11's with the 135i/ 335i on 100 octane. (making something like 430whp) Now there are a few turbo upgrades soon to be released claiming 550whp. (and the posibilities are endless) In a sense, these BMW's with the Twin Turbo Inline 6 are spiritual successors to the almighty Supra. (it even sounds like it)
However, I like NA's with many cylinders as well... like BMW's V10... or anything from Lamborghini or Ferrari...
smedin says:
07:16 PM, 02/20/09
This is a great debate, but too often it seems as though you guys are describing complete opposites. Truthfully, they are both serious butt-whompin' machines, albeit slightly different flavors.
I've never read anything quite like this ongoing debate, and it obviously points out that BMW has been cranking out the most compelling car lineup for quite some time now...
Cool.
tcolberg85 says:
07:53 PM, 02/20/09
Quite the epic LTRT blog post.
konocar400h says:
07:58 PM, 02/20/09
Great debate guys. About that Subaru Legacy GT, Magrath is absolutly right. I took a performance driving school at the International Speedway in New Hampshire. We used our own cars, all basically stock. One of the people in my group had a 2007 Legacy GT. While I wasnt watching, the guy and the instructer took the Legacy around the skidpad. They finished and the instructer exited the car. His first words were "I would never buy that car". Everyone asked why, and he responded, "This car is way too unpredictable, in a way no modern car ever should be. You never know if its going to understeer or oversteer, and when it does, your along for the ride. I am not impressed." I was shocked because I had always thought that subarus, especially the legacy gt, were great cars that handled moderatly well, but now im having my doubts!
As for S54 vs the N54, I think they are totally different engines, and to be honest, I would be quite happy with either.
uncanny_man says:
08:02 PM, 02/20/09
Wait a minute, I thought the supposed advantage of a high rpm engine was to do less shifting! Wouldn't the ideal engine be a low rpm engine if it's the shifting that you really want to do?
kurtamaxxxguy says:
08:15 PM, 02/20/09
Interesting debate for sure. Would be fun to see debate on BMW's other models, like X6 and X3.
Wrt Subaru, Consumers Union said same about Legacy: their video shows a drifting rear end during the avoidance maneuver.
BTW, how has Forester Jumped the Shark? Edmunds seemed to like it in initial reviews, but lots of R8, GT-R and RWD'er testing appears to have changed things.
What should Subaru have done?
stovt001 says:
10:33 PM, 02/20/09
This sure beat the heck out of our office discussions today, which centered around our segment's reorganization and the resulting layoffs to come. Oh how I envy you all. Keep these posts coming please!
huyracing says:
11:13 PM, 02/20/09
Subaru's just have nasty understeer/ snap oversteer stock. I was able to tune it out though. The WRX I built was touted to have "go-cart-like handling" for what its worth, lol. No car is going to handle like a go-cart, but it handled like no Subaru.
adavis2493 says:
07:31 AM, 02/21/09
Wow. My discussions with coworkers usually are about Coffee or the lack of back support our chairs have.
gabbo241 says:
10:00 AM, 02/21/09
Thanks for the Legacy shout, Josh. I agree that it has an eager, fun loving nature in the twisties that many current models, alas, somehow gave up in their new iterations. I agree that the steering lacks precision, but I think what you feel in this car when driving is that it is a fundamentally sound chassis, with even weight balance - even if it doesn't have a 50/50 weight distribution, it feels like it does.
I can't comment about supposed snap oversteer because I don't drive my car around a skidpad - Yoko Advans are expensive tires. I can say that I have done doughnuts in snowy parking lots, and the car's rotation was very easy to modulate. Maybe if all these self-styled hotshoes stopped driving like they stole the car, it wouldn't behave in an untoward fashion. When driving enthusiastically but not dangerously, the car behaves quite neutrally and eagerly.
To your point about it being the best handling family sedan, I agree and will add the following: nicest interior, best sightlines, and best looking. Have you seen a 4 door Accord lately, inside or out? An abomination. The Camry needs to be paper bagged in all but SE form (a wonder what the cross-hatch grille, side sill extensions, and window tints will do).
Gabe C.
huyracing says:
12:54 PM, 02/21/09
gabbo: subaru's feel great in snow and gravel, like it was made for it... its the dry stuff that makes it behave awkwardly.
slickersdrip says:
01:33 PM, 02/21/09
Wow, that really beats my conversations. For instance yesterday:
Me: My neighbor just bought a ZR1, I'm hoping he'll let me get a closer look at it soon.
Friend: What's that?
Me: The ultimate Corvette. It has 638 horsepower.
Friend: Is that a lot?
g8gtnorth says:
08:08 PM, 02/21/09
"(3:01:49 PM) Magrath: ..and I enjoy high-rpm NA motors. Much moreso than turbo ones. Or big lumpy pushrods.
(3:02:27 PM) Magrath: But there's a quality to the turbo mills, and to the pushrods, that makes them better all around-real world cars."
That's all I needed to read. The most well formulated and clearest thought I've read all week. I happen to agree... mostly. What can I say, I love the honest simplicity of the pushrods and I'm still not sold on turbo's.
And I'm glad you've drawn attention to the fact that swapping cogs is not the be-all end-all of aggresive driving. There should alot more preparation that goes into being fast around the bends than dropping a gear or two.
Two thumbs up, Mike, keep em comming.
misterfusion says:
11:26 PM, 02/21/09
This thread is useless without Joefromtampa here to defend the Legacy GT. ;)
majin_ssj_eric says:
03:18 PM, 02/22/09
"Sadlier: but...but what n/a motor, within reason, is faster and more responsive than the S54?!"
VQ37 in the 370Z/G37S. Well, it may not be faster, but its at least as fast and revs almost as high. And its alot more reliable to boot.
gabbo241 says:
04:52 PM, 02/22/09
I can speak to the Legacy's dry-pavement performance. Once on the highway I had to perform a violent avoidance maneuver. The car snapped back to straight ahead after I recentered the wheel a lesser car would've left me in the retaining wall.
A couple of points:
1. The Legacy's sticky tires, weight distribution, and all wheel drive probably allow you to carry higher speeds in turns than most other family sedans - its possible that the behavior tends towards sudden oversteer, but only at a point where most FWD family sedans would've plowed off the outside of the turn, into the weeds.
2. I find it hard to believe that the Legacy suffers from snap oversteer, if what you have in mind is something 911's and Z06 Corvettes suffer from. Let's not forget this a front-engined, all wheel drive vehicle with a long wheelbase. So let's get clearer about what we mean by 'snap oversteer.' However, its possible that the turbo versions suffer from this alleged quality if the turbo boost and maximum HP (250) come on suddenly - I haven't seen a dyno chart of the GT. My naturally aspirated legacy has a very linear power band and no such problems.
3. Let's not forget that its always possible to trade ride quality for higher 10/10th's, at-the-limit performance. I don't want that kind of performance because I don't drive that way - and neither do most people who don't have track time and are making the payments on the car they drive. Give me ride quality anyday. The Legacy and assorted BMWs show that you can have reasaonbly level cornering attitude and ride quality in one package. Just stay away from those sport wheel packages and run flat tires.
sabastian says:
05:08 AM, 02/23/09
Can I make another request?
Can we have the names in alternating colors like they are in the IM window? That would also make it easier to see at a glance who is saying what.
Great post, btw! I also prefer a good combination of real-world grunt and a rewarding top end. I find the engine in my father's Boxster S has decent torque at low-end, but it also sings some sweet music above 4k rpm. Also, I will almost always prefer a manual gearbox. Sports cars are bought for their owners' pleasure, and for me, being as involved with the drive as I can is always more fun than gaining a couple of tenths.
dougtheeng says:
05:55 AM, 02/23/09
"This thread is useless without Joefromtampa here to defend the Legacy GT. ;)"
I think you mean joefrompa, haha.
e34bmwlover says:
06:48 AM, 02/23/09
I gotta agree, I love high rpm n/a motors. For dd, 135 could be great, but I still prefer M3. Moreover, I gotta agree with sadler how it's more engaging to drive with a stick. Yeah, nowadays you can buy any fast car with a automatic of some sort but it will make the car bit easy and boring to drive (there are some exceptions). It's like playing video games, if a game is too easy you'll get bored and not play anymore whereas if the game is hard you won't stop playing until you get it right.
CaptainChaos says:
06:57 AM, 02/23/09
Add my vote for the R8's 4.2 as well. While I've never had the pleasure of driving or being driven in one, the sound alone from an RS4 is enough to make me weak in the knees.
Part of me wonders if there was some lead-in context from this chat that we were not privy to. If there wasn't, then I can't help but think you guys really know how to and enjoy pushing each other's buttons. Either way, it makes for entertaining and informative reading.
kurtamaxxxguy says:
08:54 AM, 02/23/09
Apparently Limited Slip Diffs can have major impact on handling. Nissan discovered conventional LSD's could induce oversteer when throttling down in a turn, so they designed the GT-R's rear LSD to compensate for throttle-up or down conditions. Result, little or no oversteer in turns. Which is one reason some enthusiasts don't like it ("It drives like a robot"...).
jriz says:
09:03 AM, 02/23/09
"Soon you'll have a '65 mustang with one seat, no carpeting, bias-ply tires and no seatbelts."
This car is presently parked behind my own in the Edmunds garage. We fear for Kurt's life frequently.
boxermike says:
10:15 AM, 02/23/09
"By kurtamaxxxguy on February 23, 2009 8:54 AM
Apparently Limited Slip Diffs can have major impact on handling. Nissan discovered conventional LSD's could induce oversteer when throttling down in a turn, so they designed the GT-R's rear LSD to compensate for throttle-up or down conditions. Result, little or no oversteer in turns. Which is one reason some enthusiasts don't like it ("It drives like a robot"...)."
LSD's make a big difference, especially when things get out of hand. Or almost out of hand.
As for little-to-no oversteering when turning in the GTR? Incorrect. See the picture at the top of this blog entry for proof. Understeer is easier to get with a GTR, but if you know how to drive an AWD car, oversteer is possible, easy and fun.
-mike
boxermike says:
10:16 AM, 02/23/09
*stupid lack of edit*
Check the GT-R picture at the top of this ( http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/2009/02/2009-nissan-gt-r-0-110-mph.html ) blog.
-mike
misterfusion says:
10:16 AM, 02/23/09
Doug: Right you are, of course. PEBKAC.
On topic, count me among those who are not in love with high RPM n/a engines. Probably due to growing up with the low-revving, high-torque Detroit cars that my dad mostly owned. (Although before I came along, he did own an Austin Healy.)
m_thrizzle says:
10:20 AM, 02/23/09
Yikes that is a long post. Maybe I'll read it later. Funny that Sadlier says the Legacy GT is the best sports sedan since Edmunds picked the Mazdaspeed 6 over a Legacy GT Spec B three years ago
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=109487
SadButTrue says:
04:16 PM, 02/23/09
@m_thrizzle,
Who said anything about sport sedans?
As far as currently-available family sedans, I think the Legacy GT is quite possibly the most fun to drive. Note that the Mazdaspeed 6 is not currently available (and the current 6 is a step down from the previous one on the fun meter).
-Josh
minibro77 says:
09:06 AM, 02/26/09
This was fu. Reminds me of the many conversations my friends and I have about what each one likes or doesn't like. A lot of fun.
berwickl says:
11:43 AM, 06/ 5/09
I know this post and it's comments are a bit stale, but I can't help suggesting that you buy my 2003 M3 SMGII convertible. That way you can keep the beloved S54 and manual transmission, while getting rid of the need to ever shift (but you'll love shifting up and down the gears with the paddles... trust me!) Also, since you both seem to care a lot for how a car performs on the street... why not have a convertible? You've never heard the engine and exhaust sound so good!
(just kidding... it's not for sale... and maybe never will be!)