2002 BMW M3: Spoiled By The S54

I admit I have never driven the M3, but it sounds really bad from the outside.
As for your claim that V8 don't come cheap, I say the Mustang GT sounds really good, and the G8 GT is pretty cheap.
Admit you just LOVE BMW so much,you are blind to anything others even offer.

@israelgt,

Mustang GT sounds good, no question. Actually that specific model is the reason I said "those extra two cylinders *usually* don't come cheap." Stay tuned for an Edmunds Daily comparison test of the Mustang GT and 370Z...we haven't done the test yet, but right now I would lean toward the Mustang because of that V8.

As for the G8 GT, I'm certainly a fan -- see just about any of my blog posts on our long-termer -- but it's obviously not competing with the sporting models mentioned here.

I assume you're joking with the BMW-lover gibe, but in case you're not, have a look at my "Not Interested" post on our long-term 135i.

-S.B. True

I'll throw the RX8's rotary out there... and watch it get killed in power, mileage, and reliability. But I don't care, I am in love with a 1.3!

I've driven the e46 M3 before and no doubt that's the best 6-banger I've driven in my life. However I have to say in all honesty, Lexus' 2GR-FSE isn't really far behind at all, especially when the power mode is on.

All that engine need is a sweet manual tranny or DSG to go with it...

For that kind of money, I would also look at a used Boxster S. My dad got one last spring, and I savor every second of seat time that I can get in that thing. What a beautiful noise.

The S54 engine is a BIG part of why I own an M Coupe. I'll never forget driving south on LaSalle St. here in Chicago in my Z4 roadster one summer and hearing a glorious engine note from the northbound lane - it was an E46 M3 rocketing past. I was on the fence about getting an M3, but when the Z4 M Coupe was announced it was a done deal. I think it will be the last great inline-6 from BMW - from here on out, turbos will be the norm.

Compliance, I enjoyed my seat time test driving an RX8. Certainly a great overall package, and the engine is fun, if low on torque. Is the current version known to be unreliable?

"I admit I have never driven the M3, but it sounds really bad from the outside. As for your claim that V8 don't come cheap, I say the Mustang GT sounds really good, and the G8 GT is pretty cheap. Admit you just LOVE BMW so much,you are blind to anything others even offer."

Its not about being blind, its about personal preference. Its also not just about exhaust notes (although I would prefer a nice intake/exhaust note) as response, eagerness, refinement, power delivery and free revs are all characteristics I look for in a great engine. As many here know, I personally prefer smaller displacement high reving engines.

My favorite 10... well 11 engines to date:
Audi 4.2 V8 (RS4)
BMW 3.2 I6 (M3)
BMW 4.0 V8 (M3)
BMW 5.0 V10 (M5)
Chevy 7.0 V8 (Z06)
Honda 3.2 V6 (NSX)
Honda 1.8 I4 (Integra Type R)
Honda 2.0 I4 (S2000)
Honda 2.0 I4 (JDM Civic Type R)
Ferrari 3.5 V8 (F355) Exhuast note is MAGNIFICO!
Porsche 3.8 F6 (GT3)

Plenty of fine options for under $35k...

E39 M5
C5 Z06
C6 Corvette
Pontiac GTO
Any SRT-8
E55 AMG
SLK55 AMG
C55 AMG
Porsche Cayman S
Porsche Boxster S
Toyota Supra
Acura NSX

@louiswei,

I do like that Toyota/Lexus V6 (with or without direct injection), as I'm sure I've mentioned in this forum before. If the 370Z had even the Camry's V6 (let alone the IS350's), it would be a whole lot more pleasant to wring out.

Not a fan of the e9x ///Ms or e60 ///M but my god their engines sound like heaven.

compliance, calling the Renesis a 1.3 liter really shows a lack of understanding of how the rotary works. Each chamber is 651 cc, and each chamber contributes a power stroke on every rotation. Honestly the Renesis is more like an inefficient (but smooth and high-revving) 3.9 liter than an efficient 1.3 liter.

The S54 is one of the greatest engines of the last decade or so I feel. Ford's modular V8, Chevy's small block, and Audi's 4.2 liter V8 are all motors with two more cylinders that are also very charming and happen to have 2 more cylinders without costing a fortune. But I've always loved high-revving larger-displacement 6s...NSX, M3, 911, those are some of my favs right there.

Uhh, the "Evo" motor you linked to was a post about the Lancer GTS motor, not an Evo. If they sound the same to you, you should say so in this post. Otherwise, it sounds disingenuous.

Clarkma-

If Mazda calls it a 1.3 then I'd say there's nothing wrong with calling it a 1.3.

fade-

The standard for naming displacements of rotary engines was basically left to the engineers that design them and the manufacturers that sell them. It is to Mazda's benefit to have the Renesis called a 1.3 liter instead of a 3.9 liter, as the vast majority of the developed world has automotive tax brackets based on displacement. Just because Mazda calls it a 1.3 doesn't mean to me, necessarily, that they're right to. Various countries have recognized that the rotary is a thirsty and polluting motor given its displacement and have thus added arbitrary multipliers of 1.5 or 2, but the reality is that the reason that the RX-8 drinks gas like it's a 3.9 liter is because it IS a 3.9 liter!

Great engine, yes. But it doesn't sound good from the outside (maybe from the inside it's better?). It's raspy, flat exhaust note just doesn't stir the soul the way a V-8 does, or even the Nissan VQ V-6 does. The new M3's V-8 sounds 10 times better than the E46's engine.

The S54 was also a bit cantankerous and high strung; almost too much so for a street engine. The regular valve lash adjustments required, odd expensive oil required, and the history of grenading S54 engines from spun main bearings, are just some examples.

Most small displacement high strung (read: utlra high specific output) 4 and 6 cyl engines sound TERRIBLE at or near idle. They don't sound remotely good until they are revved. A 6 cylinder M3 (and most 911 models) sounds bad from the outside unless you crack the whip. Might be a different story on the inside but I've never rode in one. V8s don't seem to have this problem.

I think STi is the worse sounding car from the outside- that things sounds like an industrial back-up generator. Next would be the Gallardo- it literally sounds as if it's in pain while tooling around in traffic. A closer runner up to the second spot would be the Maserati Coupe Cambiocorsa. I could actually hear the automated manual clicking and groaning while driving next to it in traffic with my window down. Ofcourse when the road opens up that's a different story, so...

Chavis - I'll just say this: Honda nailed it on their 2.0 liter K20 engine in the 2006+ Civic SI. It hums at idle, has a little baritone up to 3000 rpms, quiets down between ~2800-4000 rpms (highway cruising speeds), starts to warm up from 4000-5800, and then sings gloriously from 5800-8300.

All through a well balanced engine and a tuned intake and exhaust tract.

@jederino
I don't necessarily think the Renesis is unreliable, but Mazda screwed up the tuning for the oil metering system in the 04 and 05's. They replaced a lot of engines, but extended everyone's powertrain warranty to 8yrs 100,000 miles. The 09's have an additional oil injector.

@clarkma5
I'm aware of all the rotary math. Mazda calls it a 1.3, so that's what it is. What it could be called or what it acts like doesn't really matter, this isn't a technical discussion.

Compliance - That's a great example of a manufacturer admitting a mistake and dealing with it the right way.

@johnnyr3,

Uhh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Evo's 2.0-liter 4B11T engine is essentially just a turbocharged version of the base Lancer's 2.0-liter 4B11 powerplant, which was the one in our old Lancer GTS.

In other words, it's still the same blender (and sure sounds like it) -- just a turbocharged one. Hence my "turbocharged blender" description.

-Josh

@stingray454: One of these days, I'd appreciate it if you would post that the sky is blue or that water is wet. I know already, but I'd love to see you get something right for once.

BMW did the same thing as Mazda with the S54 bearing issue - they extended warranties on the affected cars to 6 years/100k miles. An approved oil for the S54 can be found at any PepBoys or Autozone. And I'll never understand why you find the idea of adjusting valves so offensive, unless you choked on a valve shim as a small child or something.

Also, re: M3's outside voice, this is a debate that I'm sure will never be resolved. A lot of people seem to think it doesn't sound good; personally I'm with epbrown, above -- a stock e46 M3 always turns my head when it drives by, and in a good way. But naturally the S54's exhaust note pales in comparison to the V8s I mentioned. Don't get me wrong, if AMG's 6.3-liter V8 came standard in every car, the world would be a better (if perhaps slightly more polluted) place.

In any case, I think everyone who's driven one of these cars can agree that it sounds pretty cool from the driver seat. It's about as free-breathing and free-revving as a non-racecar engine gets, and the 2-3 full-throttle upshift at redline...wunderbar.

D'oh, AMG's 6.2-liter V8. Hey, Edmunds, bring back the edit feature...oh, wait, I work here. :)

Hey, I just discovered the 'Edmunds Daily' blog because of this post. There were some interesting topics in there, especially the linked post on cars that looked good on paper. What is with the division between Edmunds and Inside Line when there are road tests and similar articles on both?

Can you guys aggregate your content somehow? Maybe add an Edmunds master blog that will pull all entries into one mega-blog?

I replaced the midpipe in my 01 M3 to remove the raspiness of the exhaust note. It sounds cleaner and less harsh, but I do miss the distinctiveness of the rasp a little bit now.

The Mercedes McLaren SLR side port exhaust sounds so awesome, like a WWII fighter plane. Youtube some sound clips and you'll get a woodie.

I wonder how much better you guys would like it if you'd sprung for the valve adjustment at Insp II. ;)

"By epbrown on February 11, 2009 10:27 AM
@stingray454: One of these days, I'd appreciate it if you would post that the sky is blue or that water is wet. I know already, but I'd love to see you get something right for once."

Everything I wrote was right. Correct me where I'm wrong. You didn't in your post:

"BMW did the same thing as Mazda with the S54 bearing issue - they extended warranties on the affected cars to 6 years/100k miles."

So it's OK in your book to have a faulty engine that may self destruct, as long as you have an extended warranty? How about designing the engine correctly in the first place so it won't spin the main bearings?

"An approved oil for the S54 can be found at any PepBoys or Autozone. "

That doesn't negate the fact that it is an odd oil that is also expensive which is what I said. It may be found at PepBoys or Autozone, but it's not at every parts store and service station like 5W-30 is. And you know that. Edmunds went over this already. You're pretty dense.

"And I'll never understand why you find the idea of adjusting valves so offensive, unless you choked on a valve shim as a small child or something."

You'll never understand? How about because valve lash adjustments on non-racing engines went out in the 1960's. Seriously, only near-race pushrod engines of the 1960's required periodic valve lash adjustment. How about I don't like having to spend $1,500 every 25,000 miles to have it done? Why would you? And it's a nuissance to have to do it yourself.

News flash for you: less maintenance required is better than more maintenance required.

All of this just so you can brag that the engine has a high specific horsepower per liter? Who cares, other than nerdy engineers?

I care about which car is faster, which car is easier to maintain and repair, and which car will last the longest with minimal headache. Not which car can extract the most HP per liter, which is almost a meaningless measurement of performance.

Clear enough for you? Understand?

Stingray, why do you keep bringing up a dead issue like the bearing recall? BMW actually changed the design and implemented the fix in all of the S54 motors and I have not read of any engine blowing up in several years. Problem identified and fixed, case closed.

I'd rather pay less for the oil but if you actually change it every 13-15k miles (@$100-120) per the service indicator, it is cheaper than those fools who change their econocar's oil every 3k miles ($30 x 5 changes = $150).

The Corvette is a fine car with a bulletproof engine but it is not the be all, end all sportscar. Low cost and maintenance is a hallmark of the Vette, and Chevy finally made it's completely garbage interior half way decent now. And then there's that wonderfully useful voltmeter of course. I think the numb, overboosted steering was finally fixed too, but maybe on just the higher end models. The seats still suck though.

If everyone was as smart as you and bought Corvettes instead of M3's or other sportscars, maybe GM wouldn't be in the pickle it's in right now. If GM can apply the same winning Corvette formula to the rest of its lineup, they may just have a shot.

FYI - My valves require adjustment every 105k on my 06 Civic SI. So it's not entirely out of style :)

Also...I don't really see the problem with the oil. It can accept a variety of oils, including TWS 10w60 and at least one 5w50 IIRC. Yes, they can be expensive....but you can also find an acceptable oil for around $6-7 per quart, the same as the cost of the oil "required" for your corvette.

Not saying the M3 is cheaper, just that it's easy to overblow some of it's maintenance.

"Not saying the M3 is cheaper, just that it's easy to overblow some of it's maintenance."

Yaeh, but it's so much Kewler to cruise the White Castles in a Vette. You meet more cheerleaders, too!

"Seriously, only near-race pushrod engines of the 1960's required periodic valve lash adjustment. How about I don't like having to spend $1,500 every 25,000 miles to have it done?"

stingray,

Well, the S54 is a near-race double VANOS engine of the 2000s (aughts?) with an 8100 rpm redline that requires periodic valve adjustments. It is a highly stressed and highly tuned engine that requires more maintenance than average in return for sewing machine precision and a power band line a turbine.

My indy shop (in one of the most expensive parts of the country) just quoted me $880 for Inspection II. Inspection I would be a couple of hundred bucks cheaper because you don't need to replace the air cleaner, spark plugs, fuel filter, and tranny and diff fluids. So while you could easily spend $1500-2000 dollars every 25,000 miles at the dealer (like Edmunds typically does), you don't have to. More like $1500 every 50,000 miles if you shop around.

If would be unfair of me to only be critical of your post, however, because a commendation is certainly in order - you managed not to mention your Z06 or even a Corvette once! In your whole post! Well done, sir!

"If would be unfair of me to only be critical of your post, however, because a commendation is certainly in order - you managed not to mention your Z06 or even a Corvette once! In your whole post! Well done, sir!"

ROTFLMAO!!!
And true.

@stingray454: the error is in the way you talk about your personal preferences like they are required engineering specs. Based on your preferences, your Corvette is a good fit... for YOU. But you talk as if everyone else is getting it wrong if they're not building Corvettes or Corvette replicas.

As far as the bearing recall - there's no car maker that doesn't have a similar event in their history. How're you driving a Chevy after the Vega debacle? You're not going to find a carmaker with no problems in their history - it's how they're dealt with that counts.

And you're going to talk about valve adjustments going out of style in the '60s? When did everyone else drop leaf spring suspensions? Heck, the chariots in Ben Hur had coilovers.

Can't we just agree to disagree about what we see as important in engine and car design?

Oh God, not the Vette vs M3 debate again. 2 very different high performance cars with 2 very different concepts on how to extract that performance.

The M3 takes the much more technical, complicated, higher tech route while the Vette obviously uses a much simpler approach. That said, you really cant compare their engineering directly as the M3 is far more complicated. If the M3 and the Vette had similar engineering the comparison could be justified.

I've corrected Stingray before on the bearing issue, I don't believe he's interested in doing more than bashing the M3. Affected a tiny minority of pre 03.5 cars, all of which had the recall performed free of charge, and to my knowledge, there have been no spun rod bearings since in any M3 since.

Stingray, if you're really interested, there are several threads on 100k+ mileage M3s at M3forum.net, including a recent one (you don't even have to register). One guy has 144k on his including 5k trackday miles, and this on a recalled pre-03.5 plant. Only wear and tear items have been replaced.

Come on, we all know the truth; BMW maintenance costs can bankrupt Bill Gates, while people living in Section 8 housing and receiving food stamps can-and do-own a Z06 or two...

"Stingray, why do you keep bringing up a dead issue like the bearing recall? BMW actually changed the design and implemented the fix in all of the S54 motors and I have not read of any engine blowing up in several years. Problem identified and fixed, case closed."

Here's an E46 M3 engine failure as recent as a few weeks ago:

http://www.voy.com/118069/244.html

It was also on a much later model, a 2006, which supposedly wasn't supposed to happen (many people mistakenly thought the problem was unique to early build 2001-2002 models).

I found this in a matter of seconds. There are plenty more if I wanted to search for more.

The problem is far from a dead issue, and it has NOT been resolved. BMW was taking guesses at a fix, and they haven't found it. I know what the problem is: that engine has far too long of a stroke for the high redline they gave it, and the crank and main bearing design aren't strong enough to handle the inertial forces involved with a long stroke, high rev engine.

"The Corvette is a fine car with a bulletproof engine but it is not the be all, end all sportscar."

I never said it was.

"Low cost and maintenance is a hallmark of the Vette, and Chevy finally made it's completely garbage interior half way decent now. "

The Corvette's interior is hardly completely garbage. The E46 M3's interior is certainly nicer than my C5 Z06's, but my Z06's interior isn't bad (not good), and far from "garbage."

Put it this way: I've raced many an E46 M3, and they all got smoked badly, on the track, and off. Not once did I think, "well, that car's got a nicer interior!" :P

"And then there's that wonderfully useful voltmeter of course. "

Don't be a child.

"I think the numb, overboosted steering was finally fixed too, but maybe on just the higher end models. "

Ahh, you've just revealed you've definitely never driven one. The steering may be numb, but it is not even close to overboosted. It's actually quite heavy feeling. BTW, they've fixed the steering feeling on the 2008+ models, with many magazines saying it now feels close to Porsche's, which is probably the best steering feel in the industry.

"The seats still suck though. "

Agreed. No argument there.

"By roadburner on February 11, 2009 2:52 PM

Yaeh, but it's so much Kewler to cruise the White Castles in a Vette. You meet more cheerleaders, too! "

Actually, I've seen a new Bentley Continental GT at White Castle before, as well as Jaguars and an Aston Martin V8 Vantage. True!

It appears the crave knows no socio-economic bounds.

No cheerleaders tho :(

"By epbrown on February 11, 2009 6:35 PM
But you talk as if everyone else is getting it wrong if they're not building Corvettes or Corvette replicas."

No, far from it. I'm merely pointing out a few issues with the M3, some that are big ones, IMO. Many people have blinders on and are calling the M3 perfect. It's far from perfect. My Z06 isn't perfect either, and I never said it was.

Again, why are you so defensive?

"As far as the bearing recall - there's no car maker that doesn't have a similar event in their history. How're you driving a Chevy after the Vega debacle?"

That's not even close to a relevant comment. I never said other car makers haven't had similar major issues. Of course they have. Nor did I say I would never buy a BMW or an M3 because of this bearing recall. I probably wouldn't buy an E46 M3 out of it's 100k extended engine warranty. And I would certainly buy a new M3. I like that car a lot (except for it's interior and the taillamps on the sedan version), and if the CTS-V didn't exist, the new M3 would likely be my next car. What can I say, I have a soft spot for V-8's, and the one in the new M3 is fantastic!

"And you're going to talk about valve adjustments going out of style in the '60s? When did everyone else drop leaf spring suspensions? Heck, the chariots in Ben Hur had coilovers."

Very funny. At least the leaf springs don't require periodic adjustments, or any maintenance. Not to mention, the E46 M3 uses struts - hardly a suspension system to brag about, and only marginally more modern of a design than leaf springs. But like the Corvette's, it may not be a sexy design, but it works.

"Can't we just agree to disagree about what we see as important in engine and car design?"

I always have. I'm just going to correct statements that I see that are not true or not factually correct.

"By hondacura4 on February 11, 2009 6:55 PM

The M3 takes the much more technical, complicated, higher tech route while the Vette obviously uses a much simpler approach.
That said, you really cant compare their engineering directly as the M3 is far more complicated. "

I don't agree with that at all. There is a lot of technology in both cars, and I would say they are about equal in technological development and innovation. They just chose to focus on different areas of technology with different engine designs. For every technological advancement made on the M3, I can list one on the C5 Z06 just as significant. You sure you want to go there?

"By tenfifteen on February 12, 2009 6:41 AM
I've corrected Stingray before on the bearing issue, I don't believe he's interested in doing more than bashing the M3. Affected a tiny minority of pre 03.5 cars, all of which had the recall performed free of charge, and to my knowledge, there have been no spun rod bearings since in any M3 since."

tenfifteen - you're wrong, and you've just been corrected. It would seem your "knowledge" is a bit faulty. Read my post above. The problem is still there, and it's happening even on 2006 models.

tenfifteen,
Uh-Oh! Looks like we goaded Mr. Plastic Fantastic Fanatic into a 1487-style crazed multi-post mode...;)

Roadburner - I think that's uncalled for. He addressed each post in a cogent, cohesive manner and provide a link without provocation. I enjoy disagreements with Stingray far more, personally :)

You are right Joe, that was an unkind characterization on my part. There's really no comparison.

" don't agree with that at all. There is a lot of technology in both cars, and I would say they are about equal in technological development and innovation."

Sting, I wasnt suggesting the Z06 wasnt technologically advanced. I was suggesting the M3 (for some reason I had the current M3 V8 in mind) was more technical vs the Z06. As for the E46, I still see it a bit more ....let say "complicated" vs the C5/6 Z06.

Hondaacura/Stingray - I think the perception is that the M3's OHC/Individual Throttle Body setup is more technologically advanced than the Vette's pushrod.

I actually find the vette to offer more Porsche-ism than the M3. Here's why:

Porsche 911 has been a version of the same tried and true, refined endlessly, for 40+ years now. It has had only a few major leaps in the technological region (i.e. switching to water cooling, the advent of direct injection, and the suspension setup utilized in the '95 and forward versions)

The Vette follows the same path. It has retained a simple philosophy and refined it endlessly, to the point where today is is absolutely unbelievable at what it can do.

I admire the Vette because it can pack 7.0 liters of the wrath of God and still handle like a champ. It can pack 7.0 liters and still weigh almost an identical amount to the Porsche (and far, far less than the modern M3). It also doesn't have an exotic design, so long-term ownership is less fearful (than, say, the 5.0 liter v8 in the e39 M5).

I agree that the Vette is less complicated overall, but that's not to say it's not technologically advanced. It's just that Chevy put the technological advancements into weight savings, better engine materials, a more balanced design, etc.

Not much to go wrong in those areas (or not as much), and it's a powertrain design that's been around forever, so it's not typically considered "advanced".

BTW - I've never driven a modern 'vette (only an old dog). I love the specs, the exterior look of the C6, and the interior is getting better. The only thing I don't like are the reviews saying it feels "heavy on it's feet" vs. the more nimble 911/M3 feel. But that's so subjective it deserves to be driven anyway :)

Joe

Now that this thread has matured into intelligent reasonable discussion, it's become somewhat boring! ;) J/K

"The only thing I don't like are the reviews saying it feels "heavy on it's feet" vs. the more nimble 911/M3 feel. But that's so subjective it deserves to be driven anyway :)"

I haven't heard that "heavy on it's feet" description before, and I don't think it's a good description really. I would say it pretty much feels its actual weight, which is relatively light, but some of that feel is masked by the really wide tires. There's always a trade-off between tire width grip and the feeling of nimbleness with quick turn-in (narrower tires are better for this feel). I think that is maybe the "heavy on its feet" feeling referred to.

Also, I would say the C5 Corvette feels a bit large for 2 seat sports car, and it is somewhat big compared to what some would consider a more conventional sports car like a Z4, TT, or Miata. It's mostly the width that you notice - it is a wide car, notably wider than the M3 too. You especially notice this width on an autocross course, where, despite the car's capabilities, it almost feels too wide to fit between the cones.

I understand the next generation Corvette will be smaller and lighter than the C5 and C6, and I wouldn't mind that as long as the performance is still there. My wish list would include a mid-engine layout, coil-over suspension, and an interior of similar quality to the CTS'. I don't think the mid-engine design will make the cut to production, but no more leaf springs and a nice interior I think are both likely. That's IF GM makes it around long enough to create another Corvette, which probably won't be here until 2012 at the earliest.