2008 Pontiac G8 GT: Knuckle-dragger Approved

Did you forget donuts/doughnuts, Kurt?

The G8 GT is an even better deal on the used market; my local Pontiac dealer has a white one with 10,800 miles for $20,979. I'd jump on it if it wasn't a slushbox.

Kurt brings the mad funny.

So -
when is the next 12-step meeting
for TQ addicts???
- Ray
I admit it...

@roadburner

Tempting as that may be, it's a bit difficult for me to rationalize buying a car that has likely been hooned to death in those 10,800 miles from a company that has a significant chance of going under.

I'll wait a couple more years for the off-lease ones, and to see if GM still exists. oh, and if we're still using gasoline ;)

I love the G8 a lot. It still amazes me this car has not managed to outsell the generics, like the Camry or Accord. I know those car usually sell to a bunch of people that just care about getting from point a to point b with as little hassle as possible, but this car seems to be a just an all-round better choice than the Camry SE V6 in every aspect, except resale value.

The license plate is still crooked. :)

"Tempting as that may be, it's a bit difficult for me to rationalize buying a car that has likely been hooned to death in those 10,800 miles from a company that has a significant chance of going under."

Good point!

"I love the G8 a lot. It still amazes me this car has not managed to outsell the generics, like the Camry or Accord."

-Most people who buy Accords and Camrys arent looking for a RWD sport sedan.

-Starting price for a G8 is much more than a Camry or Accord.

-Fuel economy

-Camry/Accord have a loyal customer base here in the U.S.

My wife likes the Accord's styling better than this, and feels the Accord will be much more reliable. She wants the cushy family sedan, so I figure I might as well get a lean, sporty car. That's why I will not be buying one of these, unfortunately.

I think if this had the cobalt SS 2 liter turbo as the base engine and then a turbo'd version of the 3.0L from the caddy as the top of the range engine more people would flock to it due to better fuel efficiency.

Knocking the price down a couple thousand would help too.

They experimented with putting a turbo 4 cylinder in the new camaro and found that it didn't get any better fuel economy than the V6.
The small turbo engines are great in cars like the Cobalt but in something as big and heavy as the G8 it just has to work too hard and run the turbo way too much.
It is a shame that they didn't go for the Direct Injected Caddy engine and 6 speed trans combo that the Camaro is getting. A couple extra MPG would make the G8 that much more attractive.

Bummer...you can still see the building! As they say on many a movie set, "More Smoke, More smoke!" :-)

"Tempting as that may be, it's a bit difficult for me to rationalize buying a car that has likely been hooned to death in those 10,800 miles from a company that has a significant chance of going under."

GM won't be going under. If you truly believe they will, then I have a great deal for you on a bridge I'm selling. You've been listening to the fools on TV too much, who for the most part, don't have a freakin clue.

Don't be a sheep.

I'm still always leary about those low mileage almost new cars.
Was it someone that just decided it wasn't the car for them and took the huge loss or was it someone who abused the car and just let them take it when they stopped making payments.
Or did it have a string of small problems that just drove them crazy so they had to get out of it.

Around here (Toledo, Ohio) probably half the time a low mileage speciality car from GM was a toy for an employee of Powertrain (in town) or one of the many GM assembly plants in south east Michigan and they moved on or moved up or whatever...

"I'm still always leary about those low mileage almost new cars.
Was it someone that just decided it wasn't the car for them and took the huge loss or was it someone who abused the car and just let them take it when they stopped making payments.
Or did it have a string of small problems that just drove them crazy so they had to get out of it."

That's always possible, but on the other hand I bought a one year old X3 for my wife back in 2005 and after almost 75000 miles the only non-scheduled repair has been a passenger SRS sensor.

Fuel economy is not going to get much better in the G8 regardless of the enigne. There aren't many ways to drastically improve a 4000lbs vehicle's mileage short of a hybrid powertrain. a 4000lbs DI CTS only gets 17/26,

Back in the mid 90's I sold cars for a while and I was amazed how many people trade in 1 to 2 year old cars. The biggest reason is they saw something newer that they want, not that the car was a lemon or trashed.

A car that new should have all the service records and isn't the big risk some think.

We also did quite a lot of 1 and 2 years leases which gave us a steady supply of good low mileage almost new cars.

"Back in the mid 90's I sold cars for a while and I was amazed how many people trade in 1 to 2 year old cars. The biggest reason is they saw something newer that they want, not that the car was a lemon or trashed.

A car that new should have all the service records and isn't the big risk some think."

Yeah, I agree. When it comes time to replace my Suburban eventually, I plan to buy a 1 or 2 year old Escalade ESV with around 30k miles. These are selling for about $35k now, yet cost $65k when new, and you still get the balance of GM's 100k powertrain warranty. Plus, they haven't changed them, so an '07 Escalade looks just like a new '09.

These full size GM trucks routinely last well over 200k miles, even with just mediocre maintenance practices. You're getting a lot of luxury, and a lot of vehicle, with many years and at least 170k miles of life left in it, for a lot less money than new.

"Bummer...you can still see the building! As they say on many a movie set, "More Smoke, More smoke!" :-)"

There was a lot of smoke, but there was also a lot of wind...
-mike

Stingray - Alot of people confuse bankruptcy with "ceasing to exist".

GM will still exist in a few years, I agree. They make cars in almost every major country and do well in alot of them. But they may declare bankruptcy at some point, which I think is a good thing for GM's future. Bankruptcy was invented so that companies like this could re-organize unencumbered by existing obligations....exactly what they need to become the lean, mean, producing machine they should be.

Of course, they also need about an entire upper management overhaul and to get some new design blood in there. Sure, they've got some great looking newer products....but they've got enough not-so-good looking and they can't afford any more Azteks.

Joe

Joe - I provide financing for companies in bankruptcy for a living, so I'm intimately familiar with the bankruptcy process ;)

I don't agree that upper management needs to be overhauled, or that they need new design blood in there. Just about every new GM product that has come out in the last 3 years, and is coming out in the near future is nicely designed, well executed, and well engineered. There are a few exceptions of mediocrity (like much of the Pontiac line except for the G8), but for the most part, I think they've done a phenomenal job with new product.

The Aztek was a long time ago, and a whole different management team ago.

GM management's biggest mistake was giving into the UAW demands for contracts they couldn't afford even in good times. But given the UAW's constant extortion tactics (strikes, slow downs, etc.), combined with Wall Street's constant pressue for quarterly profits, they were kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The only reason GM should file Ch. 11 bankruptcy is to tell the UAW to pack their bags with their unreasonable contracts, and to unload their crushing pension and post-retirement medical benefit liabilities. If they're not going to do that, then there's really no significant benefit to filing.

Either way, this situation shouldn't prevent people from buying a GM vehicle.

Sting - I wrote a long, thoughtful post in response to which edmunds decided to log me out for some reason and then erase my posting when I tried to go back to it. So here's the cliffnotes:

- People are psychologically affected by the knowledge of a manufacturer operating in an unsustainable model for years, and are concerned about where that manufacturer might have cut corners in production to help bail ship. Regardless of whether said manufacturer did or did not cut corners, the perception is there.

- I wrote what I did about bankruptcy for others and figured you'd know about it...though i didn't know about your financial background. Sorry for the confusion :)

- The current management has failed in every area driven by senior management. To name some:

Public relations and marketing (from product quality, executive salaries, brand awareness and brand meaning, product launch, pipeline management, new product development, etc.)

Bizarre cannibilization by the same product sold by different brands

A roughly 5:1 ratio of GM dealers vs. Toyota dealerships in the U.S.

Bowing to union demands, over and over and over, instead of making the hard decisions (which may cost the individual their job in the end).

Losing market share and share price for more years than I care to count

Despite losing market share for years and years, having to constantly idle various plants around the country instead of running a lean operation.

Constantly having huge vehicle excesses in inventory for years at a time, resulting in brand new 2 year old models being sold throughout the country.

the list goes on and on....upper management should be, at the very least, significantly shaken up. And the salaries should be re-aligned to reality. Along with the UAW being dealt with and a number of other factors.

Just my .02 :)

Joe

One of the things I really like about the G8 is the fact that it was NOT assembled by the UAW. And yes, I do own one UAW assembled vehicle(a Wrangler TJ), but I had to buy it for political reasons. That said, it is a nice truck- and I bought it used, so any benefit to that idiot Ron Gettelfinger and his ilk was minimal at best.

@bloodyr
@boxermike:

Haha...good catch the license plate IS still crooked. I am actually looiking to get one of these used as a DD once I return from the desert. That way I can use the baby-bimmer on the weekends!

Joe, I don't disagree with some of your perceptions of management's mistakes. Some are genuine mistakes, some are not. But most were done by prior management, not the current management. Most people seem to forget that Wagoner and Lutz haven't been at the helm of GM for very long - only a few years. It takes time to turn around a huge ship the size of GM. They don't turn on a dime.

I strongly disagree with your comment about new product development being poor. I think it's been excellent. Take a look at all of the new models introduced by GM since say 2005, and are currently being introduced, and with very few exceptions, they're all excellent vehicles, with great reviews written by the all critical automotive press. I can name all the models if you like, but I think you know them.

Sting - I didn't say new product development has been poor (did I??? No, I just re-read). I said that the marketing and public relations work on new product development has been extremely poor.

Off the top of your head, can you name a single memorable broadcast marketing effort for the Pontiac G8 (arguably Pontiac's one good offering right now) or Saturn Astra (arguably Saturn's first good small car offering since 2002)?

Saturn's most recent TV commercial is of a guy walking into a Saturn dealership and then turning around because he sees the products and they are much nicer than he is expecting. He does a double-take at the Saturn sign out front. The salespeople say "We get that alot recently".

Message: "We're not as bad as you think!"

Compare with Hyundai, which constantly markets itself against BMW/Porsche/etc.

Message: "We compete much higher than you expect"

Those are just rolling off the top of my head. Oh yeah, and the Oprah/Solstice fiasco leading up to the actual release of the product during....wait...what season? Oh, right, winter.

A convertible RWD piece of art released in the coldest months.

Their marketing department/agencies/vendor selection or whatever needs to be overhauled.

Joe

P.s. Lutz has been around long enough and has to be kept on script enough, and has approved enough boondoggles, to require replacing. Wagoner as a CEO is a joke. I honest to goodness don't know how he's kept his job, and yearly salary, given the happenings during his watch. Compare with Ghosn. Hell, compare with what the CEO of porsche (Wiedeking) just did.

The more I see the G8, the more I am impressed by the design and function of the car. It is impressive and has strong road presence.

Joe,

Where have you been for the last 5 years or so? GM needs new design blood? Really? Wow.

chap. 11 wont work for GM and even the experts know that. In fact, even politicians who were originally pulling for it backed off after reviewing the facts. They will not be going chap. 11 unless the economy tanks substantially in the next 6 months or so.

Management is improved quality, handling and design and lowered cost. Not sure how you have determined that they should all be replaced. Wagoner has done more to reduce GM's costs in the last 5 years than his predecessors did in the last 5 decades. You need to do a little more research. Toyota went from a $15B profit to $1.7B loss in one year and you are saying GM has inept management that cant compete with the best and brightests from abroad as if the global financial crisis isnt a factor in their current predicament.

Joe,

Knocking ads is one of the silliest things one can do. There is no consensus on ads because they are subjective. I personally find Honda's ads to be some of the most annoying and ineffective on TV but people love Hondas. GM uses multiple ad agencies so I never understand why people try to generalize and say "Gm's ads suck" as if they are monolithic. Hyundai's Genesis ads are memorable but most people think its presumptious and amusing that Hyundai compares their vehicle to a BMW or MB. Not everyone is impressed or compelled to by the Genesis after seeing those ads. BTW, some of the initial G8 ads were targeted at the 550i and even the current ads mention the 550i in terms of fuel economy.

"Those are just rolling off the top of my head. Oh yeah, and the Oprah/Solstice fiasco leading up to the actual release of the product during....wait...what season? Oh, right, winter."

The G6 was launched on Oprah. The Solstice shown on the Apprentice. Both cars werent available for a couple of months after the shows aired. It had nothing to do with wintertime.

Joe:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20090109_GM_chief_is_a_driving_force.html

Check that out.

"Sting - I didn't say new product development has been poor (did I??? No, I just re-read). I said that the marketing and public relations work on new product development has been extremely poor."

How can you make sweeping statements like that considering the success of the Malibu, CTS, Lambdas and to a lesser extent Aura? Sure the G8 and Astra havent sold well but they have not had major ad dollars supporting them. GM has launched more successes than duds in recent years so I dont get how you can say their marketing and PR work has been poor.

I like the G8. However the serious depreciation prevented me from buying a new, or nearly new one. I will need to purchase another new(or more likely newer) car in a year or so. Maybe then.

Wagoner? The crisis happened on his watch, he needs to go. A complete change in management is needed.

Thanks for the 3 posts responding to me. I must make one heck of a splash :)

The politicians backed off chap. 11 because of the facts? Really? Why exactly wouldn't Chap 11 work for GM? I must've missed something. Try to give facts and not just your opinion when you tell me why. You often have alot of great information, but you mix it in with so much of your subjective venom when on this topic. Sometimes :)

Toyota - I'm sorry, how long has Toyota been doing well? How many quarters of successive sales growth did they experience in the last decade? What is their current U.S. market share, and in what direction has it been moving? I may dislike every single one of their cars, but their current financial dealings suffering from a global economic downturn is not a reason to want them gone.

Wagoner has done more to cut costs in the last 5 years? I'm not complaining about his predecessors, I'm complaining about Rick Wagoner. During his tenure, the stock price has gone to 1/10th of it's value, he has non-stop lost market share, he has signed off on selling the future of his sales prospects through years and years of non-stop "incentives", and his company has operated at a loss for quite a long time. But I guess he's cut costs alot, so it's all good. Oh wait, how has he cut costs again? Labor costs haven't gone down. Legacy costs haven't gone down. Management hasn;t been being paid less. Would you mind sharing what he's done to cut costs? I'm sure it will do us proud.

Let me reiterate, for about the 4th time, that I am not saying GM has inept management. I'm sure they have lots of bright people. I'm saying most of their current senior management is inept and can't project the type of presence and dignity needed of them. And yes, projecting a certain presence, dignity, and competence is important for senior management. It's usually one of the several seperating characteristics between a CEO and COO.

I was knocking individual ads. Is it silly? Sure. I don't retract it though. GM's public relations/marketing has done a terrible time improving the brand-image of GM in the U.S.....hence, losing market share. How exactly would you measure their success? By determing how much less this month's sales fell vs. last year in compared to what was expected?

Sorry, I did confuse the Solstice/G6 and Oprah. I guess it became a bad PR stunt when the articles started coming out that everyone had to pay taxes on their vehicles. Among other things that happened there.

Regarding the Solstice release: Your right...they released 1000 in August, had some issues, and they really became available in late fall/early winter. Then the sales died. I'm sure there was no correlation with winter, and it was all because the reviews basically said the Miata was a better purchase.

I can make sweeping statements about public relations and marketing because the job of those departments is to create awareness, set a brand image, set a company image, improve sales, create excitement....you get the point.

What exactly has been the image of GM over the past 8 years? Of a company on the verge of turnaround...no wait, NOW we are on the verge of a turnaround....no wait. Pontiac IS CAR!

Yes, I find the Malibu commercials "Super Bu" flying car stuff stupid. Yes, I find the camera shots of a Pontiac G6 on a stage "treadmill" with
lots of chrome and background screens flashing different images fairly lame.

Just out of curiosity (I really don't know): What were the sales goals of the Malibu, CTS, and Aura? How did they do? I consider them successes in the fact that they are good cars, but that's damning with faint praise. The G8 GT is good car, but I wouldn't call it a success at this point. Why didn't it have any marketing dollars anyway? Because they don't know if they want to kill off the brand?

Personally, I want to see GM re-invented with reasonable labor costs and lean operation. I think the Legacy costs must be paid....I hate it, I really do, but you give someone a contract into retirement and they deserve to have it fulfilled.

I want to see entire brands with a 45 day inventory. I want to see Pontiac launch more sports sedans/coupes/convertibles. The list goes on and on.

But do I really want to buy an Oldsmobile Alero , if I thought a year later that brand wouldn't exist? So why would I want to buy a Saab/Pontiac/Hummer right now?

GM needs to re-organize unencumbered, so it can start from the ground up with all it's good new products.

That's the American way. If a company digs itself a hole, you let the competitors push them in until they learn to crawl out. No company is to big to fail, and it turns out money doesn't grow on trees.

Time to pay the piper.

Joe

"Thanks for the 3 posts responding to me. I must make one heck of a splash :)"

Now YOU got his panties in a wad.
Shame!

Joe, you need to come to the Pittsburgh Vintage GP. This year will be especially fun, PM me at my CarSpace page if you are interested.

You know I've never had a V8 car, but a small part of me really wants one. I love how efficient these push rod V8's are. They are becoming more and more rare these days, which makes them even more appealing to me. I actually love 4 door V8's. There's something cool about packing power in a relatively small car.

"You know I've never had a V8 car, but a small part of me really wants one. I love how efficient these push rod V8's are. They are becoming more and more rare these days, which makes them even more appealing to me."

I ran a 1974 Monte Carlo in my high school and college days. I installed an Edelbrock Performer intake, Rochester Quadrajet carb(rejetted by yours truly), Crane HT cam/lifters, Mallory ignition, Blackjack headers, 3" pipes, CBQ Turbo mufflers, a B&M Trans Kit to reprogram the slushbox, a 15,000 lb. GVWR trans cooler, 3.42 gears, super heavy duty shocks, and semi metallic brake pads/shoes. Oh yeah, and Cibie Z-Beam headlamps. Big fun. I still get called on to rebuild Q-jets once or twice per year.

Wow, it's amazing that some people on this board are calling for brands like Pontiac to continue to borrow engines and specs from other GM divisions like Chevy. One of the reasons why Saturn, Pontiac, and the now-retired Oldsmobile lost market share and never earned a real profit in recent years was because underneath every Saturn, Pontiac, or Olds facade was a Chevy reincarnate. For the last two, maybe three decades, Pontiac has lost its "driving excitement" identity. There has been nothing special or unique about those cars (e.g., the Cavalier was the Sunbird, etc.).

Now we get a unique Pontiac G8 and people on this board start asking for Caddy and Chevy engines on it. Huh? Ford does the same thing with Mercury, which many analysts now say might go away so that Ford can lean-up as well.

So many experts on this board...it's amazing!

Blobster - Um, the G8 currently has a Chevy engine in it. A truck engine.

The G8 GXP will have a chevy corvette engine in it.

And I agree, GM has been cannibalizing itself for decades with re-badged products across a variety of it's brands. It would have been better to focus on fewer brands with a wider level of either trim-offerings (i.e. instead of different trim levels at chevy/pontiac, just offer the chevy but with several more trim levels/price points).

It has reaped what it has sown with Pontiac/Saturn....unfortunately, Saturn's an awesome brand with a phenomenal start-up since ~1990, but was just absolutely neglected. It could've been (and still could be) one of it's top brands, instead of a brand that GM considers "not core".

My family has had 3 saturns in the last decade. The Ions (2) were not favorites, but the old SL1 4-door 5-speed is incredible. Dent resistant panels and a friendly dealership experience sold alot of cars.....if they had continued to evolve the product, it would've been great today.

Not that the Aura and Vue aren't great, just that their start in economical cars with unique traits has been given up in pursuit of easy solutions(witness the Astra effort).

Joe

On the topic of the G8, I certainly haven't seen many on the road here in Southern Ontario, so when I do see one, my head really turns. I saw a white one on the weekend, and it looked fantastic. In a few years when I'm in the market for a 'new' used vehicle, the G8 will likely be on my list. Its the best looking 4-door sedan GM has produced in a long time.

Joe,

I know, I know. It is a GM Holden car. I wrote "Wow, it's amazing that some people on this board are calling for brands like Pontiac to CONTINUE to borrow engines and specs from other GM divisions like Chevy."

You need to read more closely before you correct other posts, which you seem to be doing a lot of :)

What I am getting at is the never ending urge to make anything non-Chevy into something MORE Chevy-like. If that is the direction in which a car buyer wants to go, then just buy the darn Chevy! I'd have preferred that Holden been given the discretion to design their own car, from the top down. It's what Ford has been allowing Mazda to do more of lately. Anyone notice that Mazda, and maybe Volvo, tend to be selling a little better than Ford/Mercury here in the domestic market? In fact, the Mazda was such a winner that Ford based their Lincol MKZ and Fusion on it.