2008 Cadillac CTS V6 DI: Increasingly remote

Remote Start is one of the best dealer installed features out there. I'd rather have remote start then keyless entry. But I'm up in Canada so go figure that one.

I have a neighbour who uses his remote start all the time. You hear the car start and then about 15 minutes later he comes out and drives away.

Complete waste of gas.

Jederino - It's all tires man, RWD or not. Get a CTS with a limited slip differential, good all-seasons (i.e. continental contiextremecontacts), good winter tires, or good snow tires...and for good measure, throw a couple of bags of sand or salt in the trunk, and you won't even notice it's winter.

Remote Start - I still don't understand why this is not offered on manual transmission cars. Here is how to design it:

1. If car is in neutral and e-brake is on, defeat clutch-start-kill switch and start car.

2. If car is not in neutral and/or e-brake is not on, don't enable remote start.

It seems simple if integrated from the factory. Why won't it be integrated!

I'd love to have remote start. :)

Joe

"I'd love to have remote start. :)"

Agreed.

Firstwagon - It's also bad for the engine longevity. Long idling and extended warm-up times means the oil degrades faster and the engine experiences greater wear.

"It's also bad for the engine longevity"

-good. Buy more cars to help out the economy.
After coming outside a couple of times to a frozen car at -20 degrees, you would probably wish for a remote start as well. It is also useful for cooling the car after it's been sitting in the sun.

Agreed on the remote start / man trans.

I wonder if it won't be done for the following: don't the owners manuals instruct drivers to park properly/safely, leave in gear and set brake. I would think they wouldn't want the liability / insurance issues by instructing otherwise.

It may be a waste of gas, and degrade the oil but right now as I type it is -25 outside, dipping down to -38 tonight. If my G8 GT did not have a starter, I'd have to manually it and wait at least 5-8 minutes so my breath would not fog up the windows. In this climate a car starter is extremely valuable, its way too cold to just get in and drive, car is very sluggish in these temps(any car would be).

"I have a neighbour who uses his remote start all the time. You hear the car start and then about 15 minutes later he comes out and drives away.

Complete waste of gas."

GM remote start only works for 10 minutes. Many people start their cars and go back in the house in the wintertime anyway so this is no different.

You dont just use it in Canada, I use it frequently in the winter here. Its only going up to 25 tomorrow.

joe:

How is idling the engine for a few minutes per day (for part of the year) significantly reducing engine longevity? Can you back that up? I saw nothing mentioning anything like that in the owner's manual.

As for RWD in winter weather it is fine, as long as you have winter tires, and the traction/stabillitrack certainly helps as well. I have some Nokian Hakkapeliitta R's and they make a world of difference especially in really cold temps.

"It's also bad for the engine longevity. Long idling and extended warm-up times means the oil degrades faster and the engine experiences greater wear."

How is idling for 15 minutes worse than driving for 15 minutes?

This surely burns much less than a gallon of gas. I'd gladly pay $1 to have the car pre-heated if I lived up north and didn't have a garage.

The higher end versions of this (CTS included I believe) can activate the heated/cooled seats and defrost depending on outside temp.

"joe:

How is idling the engine for a few minutes per day (for part of the year) significantly reducing engine longevity? "

He's right, technically speaking, but the difference is so slight these days that it's practically not measurable, and if you change your oil as recommended, you will never notice a difference. Very few people keep their cars long enough to notice a difference in the internal engine wear that he's referring to. We're talking well over 200k miles for most vehicles.

The situation was more relevant with old carbureted cars that would run VERY rich during warm-up, especially if they had malfunctioning automatic chokes, which many did at some point in the car's life.

My guess is that the wear you are saving by not reving a cold engine, is much more than any wear caused by idling to get up to operating temp.

Remote start can be good and bad, i have a crime stopper unit install in my 4runner which i use every morning and i love it.

A friend of mine was parked in front of my truck one day with his Acura Integra, he forgot he left it in gear and remote start it, and of course his car ran under my truck damaging his headlight and hood, the only thing that happened to my truck was a bent license plate.

Having your car idle for long period of time should not damage your vehicle in any way. For the past 5 yrs i have been DJing out of my truck, the only power source is my engine and two yellow top batteries, some times the engine runs over 6 ours non stop, the only thing i notice is a stinking exaust when i just drive off at the end of the day.

You'll get the least engine wear when the engine is warm and engines warm up fastest while driving, not idleing.

Even on the coldest day, jut start the car, wait no more then 30 seconds and drive away. Drive gentle until you start getting heat out of the heater.

As for it being too cold for the driver.... Wimps.

Hey gents,

Bunch of information for you:

The time of greatest engine wear is when the engine is cold started and then as it operates and is not up to operating temperature. The longer you operate in this condition, the more engine wear you'll experience.

Now most engines never "wear out" until there is another problem, like a head gasket leak causing head warpage and coolant in the oil which results in massive engine wear. So take it for what it's worth.

Idling your engine for "extended periods" is considered "severe duty" in almost all car manuals for the past 20 years. Typically, this cuts in half the oil life. Why?

When you idle your engine for extended periods of time, a few things happen:

One, your mileage doesn't accumulate at the same rate as engine operation....so you are taxing the oil without tracking it.

But mainly, your oil accumulates moisture (during cold starts) and fuel (again, during cold starts primarily). Both of these factors begin wearing down oil much faster. Accumulated moisture will, over time, turn acidic and breakdown the oil. Fuel will cause other problems, as well as oil breakdown, thinner viscosity, a lower flashpoint (point at which the oils burns essentially), etc.

Idling, even at operating temperature, does not really burn off either. In some cases, idling will continue to accumulate fuel in the oil. You need regular acceleration and higher-rpm operation to burn off these contaminants.

Further, idling is the slowest way to warm-up your car....and your car tends to run extra rich while warming up. So your engine is operating for it's longest period while the oil is not yet at it's operating temperature viscosity, nor lubricating at it's peak ability.

So when you idle for 15 minutes in the morning (note, I'm not saying 1-2 minutes) you get the following:

1. The slowest way to warm up your engine and therefore the longest operation while not in a good operating state.

2. Greater accumulation of fuel and lesser burn-off of those impurities

3. Potentially greater accumulation of moisture over time.

What does this really mean? It's just not that good for your engine.

Most car manuals (including all Porsches to my knowledge) will tell you to start your car and begin driving at moderate engine speeds as soon as possible. This is to accelerate warm-up, which leads to the engine running in a more ideal situation.

My recommendation is to give 15 seconds of operation for every 10 degrees under 50 degrees fahrenheit.

I.e. 40 degrees out = 15 seconds of idling before driving

30 degrees out = 30 seconds

0 degrees out = 75 seconds

etc.

I forget exactly, but around -30 to -40 fahrenheit you need to start parking indoors or leaving your car running :)

You do want to build up oil pressure before driving, which takes a few seconds when it's warm out and a little longer as the temperature cools.

But otherwise, you want low-to-moderate speed engine operation ASAP.

In my 06 Civic SI, this means driving between 2000-3500 rpms until the car warms up. In most cars with lower-revving engines, I'd say 2000-3000 rpms. Those engine speeds will accelerate warm-up, avoid cold-operation wear, and help begin the burn-off of impurities in the oil.

Again....this isn't about getting your car to 60,000 miles on the original engine. You can run crap oil and change it out at twice the recommended interval and get to that mile marker. This is just about what minimizes and maximizes engine wear, and good driving practices for longevity.

Joe

Compliance - Do you know what the adjustable redline on the M3 starts at when the engine is cold? That adjustable redline indicates where engine wear will start to accelerate if the engine is taken there while cold.

IIRC, it's around 4500 rpms. In other words, the engine isn't going to be harmed by driving at 3000-3500 rpms even when it's just starting out.

I wouldn't want to push it personally, but my point is made.

And for those who doubt: Extended idling is considered a severe-service duty for your engine. If it doesn't do anything , why do you think that is? It's listed alongside other severe-service operations such as driving in sandy areas, towing, and racing.

Each of those puts a unique stress on the engine's operation and wear, and usually are indicative of higher wear shown in an oil analysis.

Joe

Wasting gas from remote starter is just a lame excuse; Vehicles need enough warm-up to have more efficient mileage.
The reason most of European cars lacking remote starter is because
1) It is patented.
2) It is complicated technology considering security and reliability issue.
Simply putting they can't offer it at a reasonable price; No surprise MB S-class has this feature.
Saving gas? Japanese automakers probably can say that although most of Mazda and a few Toyota models offer this feature.
Also, CTS remote-starter is not like cheap after-market starter. Cadillac has considered all the security issues already.

joefrompa is correct: prolonged cold idling doesn't do your engine any favors in terms of wear.

The optimal way to warm up an engine is to start it and drive it (gently at first until it reaches operating temp).

No matter the outside temperature, by the time you start the engine, buckle your belt, stash the chee-tos and slap 'er into gear, the oil pressure is up and it's time to drive.

I'M not sure where you get your claims from but every summer here in Maryland, me and about 4 other people with sound system in our vechicles, all go to a park on sundays from about 10:30 am until 8:30 pm.
our cars all idle all day long without any problem. One friend has a Lexus RX300, one a Dodge Caravan, and one a Mitsubishi Mirage.

It's long term damage, not short term.... and why on earth would you let your car idle all day just to keep the music on?

Well ,we take turn and play music,if i'm not playing i keep it running so the batteries can recharge,so does everyone else.

Hmm, wasn't it on this site that someone posted that Remote Start was a gimmick? Maybe in SoCal it was, but it's pretty nice in the New England states. It's definitely on my wish list for my next car, right up there with heated leather seats.

When I used to work at the GM dealer, GM was just introducing its factory remote start. I would use it as I walked across our lot to pick up a car. This was summer, so the cars would be baking out in the sun all day. It was nice to use the remote start to get the A/C blasting cool air. I would only use it for the 30 seconds it took me walk across the lot. No long idling time, but just enough time so I didn't burn my hands on the steering wheel.

I've also seen "extended idling" listed under severe service. But I think that refers to police cars, taxi cabs, etc. that are parked and idling for several hours a day. I also agree that when idling.. "your mileage doesn't accumulate at the same rate as engine operation....so you are taxing the oil without tracking it", but 10 minutes a day in the winter is the mileage equivalent of what, a couple hundred miles? No big deal. We all change our oil to darn often anyway. Also, I accept the info about engines warming up more quickly when driven, but how long does it remain very cold before it starts to produce heat? Our GMC seems to move the needle within just a couple minutes.

I stand by my lazy desire for a remote starter. Any wear and tear or wasted fuel are negligible.

BTW, how are y'all enjoying the global warming this year, pantherblack? Al Gore certainly wouldn't have expected us to be having this debate.

Remote Start doesn't cause any additional engine wear. Having your car idle for a few minutes in the cold as it warms up isn't easy on the engine, but real world driving (especially if you live on a hill or incline) is just as bad.

If I had remote start, I'd use it and the wear and tear on the 10 minutes it ran is probably negligible. As it is, right now I go out and start my vehicle 5-10 minutes before I head out anyway to defrost the windows and get the interior so it's not the same as the outside temp. About the only thing I notice is slightly lower fuel economy. Like maybe 1 mpg average loss. That too is also worth it not to have the windows frosted or the seat and steering wheel ice cold.

Firstwagon, if you live in Manitoba in January (its -36 right now as I type, without windchill) there is no possible way to start it and drive in 30 seconds. Way too much frost on the windshield first of all, and then if you attempt it, you fog up the interior and you have no visibility at all, not a good way to start driving. Also when you drive right away the car is very sluggish in all aspects, especially the steering, another reason to leave it warm up.

Ahightower, we saw Al Gore's message, and though warm temps have affected the arctic, we have had normal or below normal temps the last couple years, some people around here would probably appreciate it right about now.

Pantherblack - Your transmission won't warm up until you drive it....ok, it might warm up a few degrees from radiant heat, but the fluid won't be at operating temperature or anywhere near it

Mileolan - "Having your car idle for a few minutes in the cold as it warms up isn't easy on the engine, but real world driving (especially if you live on a hill or incline) is just as bad."

This is erroneous; when a vehicle is at operating temperature with fluids within spec (i.e. not worn out old oil), wear is immeasurably small. Even when climbing up a hill or under some other load. The greatest engine wear occurs during cold start and cold operation. The other extreme is extended engine racing (i.e. you are driving on a high speed track and keeping the engine in the top 25% of the powerband for 20-30+ minutes) or extremely high load conditions, like towing up a mountain for 20-30 minutes at a time without a break. Those are operating conditions which will accelerate wear. Ambient conditions such as salty air or dusty/sandy air will also accelerate wear.

All of this is just informational. To a few people's points, a properly made engine with proper care will still last a very, very long time (i.e. 200k+)

But in an engine like the sludging Toyota or VW engines of the late 90s/early 00s? I wouldn't want to allow those engines' oils to accumulate moisture and fuel....just sludge more and break down earlier.

Joe

I think its important to remember this is about tempering the cabin when its hot or cold, not simply warming up the engine before driving. Most of us know you only need to run a car for a short period of time in the winter before driving off. You dont need 5 minutes of idling for "warm up" but 5 minutes is enough time (depending on temp of course) to get some hot air blowing through your car. Its pointless to call this feature something for wimps in an age of heated seats, push button start, back up sensors, memory seats, etc. Half the features on our cars today are unecessary but are designed to save time or make life easier.

I agree with that sentiment in most respects. I personally started my car this morning when it was 18 degrees out and drove off within a minute, with no fogging or near to de-ice (I park outside my townhome, so it's not garaged or heated). It took me DRIVING 4 minutes before the car registered ANY heat on the temperature gauge...so I imagine it would've taken about 6-7 minutes of idling before my car would've started to defog.

(I timed how long it took for my electronic temperature gauge to register the first "slat" of heat, so it was very crystal clear how long this engine takes to warm up).

In the cold and when parking externally, I'm all for remote starters...hence my desire to have one as highlighted above. But idling for 15 minutes....well, see above :)

P.s. 1487 - I want you to know I think of you anytime I see a 3.6 liter Aura around Philly :) You don't happen to wear glasses do you? An Aura owner was looking at my civic SI last night as if it was spawn of the devil, and I was wondering if it was you. hehehe. :)

Joe

I also park outside, with no garage available at any time. I tend to turn the car on, then proceed to go outside and scrape/brush off snow, then get in and drive off. The whole process takes maybe 3 mins max, unless its been freezing rain or something. Heated seats and gloves are good enough to tide me over until the heater blow hot air.

"1487 - I want you to know I think of you anytime I see a 3.6 liter Aura around Philly :) You don't happen to wear glasses do you? An Aura owner was looking at my civic SI last night as if it was spawn of the devil, and I was wondering if it was you. hehehe. :)"

Was he muttering to himself "Mine's just as good. Mine's just as good. Mine's just as..."?

Roadburner - Not that I noticed.

But I did realize I can tell an Aura in my rear view mirror at night. It's very distinctive in it's headlights. Each one is about 3 feet wide by 5 feet tall.

Of course, I joke around but I'll wind up hitting a deer tonight because my headlights don't cast a nice wide beam.

Joe

"Of course, I joke around but I'll wind up hitting a deer tonight because my headlights don't cast a nice wide beam."

As someone who drives in the country, more specifically in deer country, on a regular basis, I think you can never have bright/wide beam enough lights!

"Of course, I joke around but I'll wind up hitting a deer tonight because my headlights don't cast a nice wide beam."

When I took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Basic Rider Course my coach asked, "How come you can never predict which way a deer is going to jump?"
The answer?
"Because the deer doesn't even know which way it's going to jump."

I go outside in the morning and start my car which is a royal pain in the arse. It runs for about 1-2 minutes while I lock up the house, etc and then I get in and go. Mazda wants like $350 to install remote start as an accessory so I won't be making that purchase. My parents have factory remote start and it's addicting. There's will even put on the rear defogger automatically which is really convenient and the HVAC defaults to the defrost mode. Which ever car I acquire next will definitely have remote start.

joe,

I dont stare down Civic Si's on the rare occasion that I see one. My car is techno gray and XRs in that color are not that common so if you see one it might be me.

BTW, its very nice when IL takes a car out of temperate SoCal to see how features designed for those who live in parts of the country with 4 seasons can be useful. Months back we were told remote start was a silly gimmick because no one needs to preheat their car in California. I would bet heated seats are uselss in SoCal as well but that doesnt mean the feature should be dismissed.

Had it by acident as it came standard on a company provided 06 Impala. When it came time to buy my own car it was a mandatory option for me. If it had not been factory installed I would have added it. I can't imagine ever owning a car in the future without.

As much as I like heated seats I'd give them up long before I would go without remote start again. Mine also turns on the seat heaters and rear window and mirror defrosters when outside air temperature is below 40 degreees. Now that's real luxury.

Yeah, I do waste 10 minutes of gas. Big deal. Skip the Starbucks as this uses less energy and costs less.

I'm not in quite the extreme north as Panther is, but Montana certainly gets its share. My car won't even run below -30 (I call a cab) and warmups are absolutely necessary below 10. In addition, I have to jump my car anytime it gets below -5.

I'll hand out plenty of tips when I get stationed at Thule, Greenland later this year. ;-)