2002 BMW M3: If It Was My Money

We are feeling curmudgeonly this afternoon.

"If it *were* my money."

and

"...the backside of *its* spunk."

"...buy it after *its* tour is done?"

"...growl of *its* purebred engine."

But, thank you for "...it's really hard to say..." in the last sentence, which is correct.

You are really, really picking nits with this car. Scratching the rubberized trim? Well, stop groping for the handbrake like you're some Cro-Magnon. Dangling trim? What's dangling besides the alarm motion sensor cover? You can replace that easily, instead of spending money on big brakes you don't really need...
...and it's funny how you're wondering whether it is on the "backside of its spunk," yet you don't pass up the opportunity against some graybeard in a hot-rod Mustang.
Of course the car is worth it. Treat it with a bit more care -- maybe get a manicure -- and stop using the dealer when you can easily do most of the work or go to a good indy shop. And just replace the worn-out trim! Goodness gracious, I really wonder about you people sometimes.

Come on Scott... "its" is the possessive not "it's"... it's publication for christsakes.

i hate to be obnoxious, but i second that. this is a publication and the rules of proper grammar are not hard to follow.

I'm currently looking to unload my Mazdaspeed and put a fourth Bimmer in the garage, so you can guess what my answer would be. That said, while I was looking at a couple of E46 M3s I now find myself drawn to a 2003 540i six speed. It's about one-half second slower than the M3 in the 0-60 dash, but it's also a bit more comfortable and practical for a daily driver. It's obviously no track star, but it would make a nice geezer-mobile for my current semi-retirement. I can always take the Club Sport-or the Speed Triple, for that matter-to the track.

He's a photo editor, folks. Let's show some grace. Publication, cosmictdi? On one hand this is. On the other, we should remember this is a blog after all. And I like the "C" in Christ capitalized thank you very much. I don't think He would like us using His name in vain, too. :o)

http://marcvz.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/grammar-nazi.jpg

Senior Photographer that is.

Come back, Edit function! I miss you. :tear:

I'm surprised you grammar/spelling nazis out there didn't mention the use of was vs. were for the subjunctive, too.

http://www.englishforums.com/English/WasVsWere/nmqx/post.htm

suby,

I don't think they were being "grammar/spelling naxzs." They were just trying to point out some issues that Scott had with his sentences. I do it all the time. ha ha.

"But when I get into it during the day and see how the rubberized surface has been scratched up, the missing overhead light, and dangling trim it makes me wonder if our thoroughbred is on the backside of it's spunk."

Or is it most likely neglectful ownership?

Scott, you could replace all of the black center console trim (main trim, cupholders, trays) for about $150 with brand new OEM parts from Tischer. Figure another $20 (I don't remember the details) for the overhead light, and $6 for weatherstripping glue and painters tape to fix the dangling trim. Admittedly, that last one is a no fun, time consuming process of stripping the old adhesive and applying the new adhesive, but methinks that you are seeing mountains where there are only molehills.

As for purchasing the car yourself when it comes off LT duty, I think you need to consider the fact that the prices on these cars has dropped about 20-30% in general, before the normal depreciation even factors in. You're probably looking at a $20,000 car right now, not including that ridiculous (but admittedly very cool looking) big brake kit bolted on there.

When I saw 11 comments for this thread, I was happy. When I saw 7 of them are regarding the grammatical content, I was disappointed.

As much as I love the M3, the maintenance costs seem to be too much. I'd rather go for something a little cheaper and then save the rest of the money for upkeep, maintenance, etc. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a stunning vehicle but the cost of the repairs and servicing this year has really thrown me off.

As a daily driver, this car wouldn't make much sense at its current age and mileage. The maintenance costs would be astronomical if you were really going to put 12-15k miles a year in LA traffic on this machine. If, on the other hand, you were going to have it as a low-usage, extra car for fun, then I'd say you could be getting an awful lot for your money, and maintenance might be doable.

So how hard did you get smoke by that GT500?

That center console plastic really does look banged up. Are you guys really tough on the interior of your cars, or is the interior of the M3 that fragile?

"As a daily driver, this car wouldn't make much sense at its current age and mileage. The maintenance costs would be astronomical if you were really going to put 12-15k miles a year in LA traffic on this machine."

It doesn't help when you have a dealer like Santa Monica that charges exorbitant prices for service and repairs. A lot depends on the quality of your local dealer(s) and indie shops as well as whether you are able to tackle minor service and repairs yourself. In my case, my local dealer(Swope, Louisville) charges anywhere from 60% to 75% less than Santa Monica does for the identical job. Likewise, if you can handle minor jobs such as replacing the Final Stage Resistor you'll only be out @$90, as opposed to Santa Monica's cost of $500. Oil, filter, and plug changes are dead easy as well. That said, I'd hate to wear the car out in the day-to-day traffic grind. When I had my E24 M6 I bought a 1984 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe to use as my work beater, as I hated to pile the miles on the 6er by simply commuting.

@dougtheeng: do yourself a favor and take one for a longish test drive. Then come back here and tell us it's not worth a few extra bucks to maintain. :)

-2001 M3 owner

"@dougtheeng: do yourself a favor and take one for a longish test drive. Then come back here and tell us it's not worth a few extra bucks to maintain. :)

-2001 M3 owner"

haha I've no doubt that its a great vehicle and I won't pretend to suggest its not worth it to you :)

Its all relative - mostly on how many extra bucks you have for that maintenance. If someone is already stretching for that weekend car, they have to sacrifice some power/speed/M3-aura for something a little cheaper to maintain.

If it's a weekend car you won't be driving it that much and you won't run into as many problems. With low annual mileage, you'll need an oil change annually and tires every 3-4 years.

This car only has 67,000 miles on it and six years old. Did I mention the insane price tag? If I paid this kind of money for a car it better last at least 10 years or 150,000 miles. My friends old 1997 CR-V with over 200,000 miles on the clock is still going strong and she doesn't do any maintenance except change the oil 2 or 3 times a year.

"My friends old 1997 CR-V with over 200,000 miles on the clock is still going strong and she doesn't do any maintenance except change the oil 2 or 3 times a year."

I'm sure that E46 M3 owners all over the US are now in a frenzy- conducting a frantic search of the classifieds in order to find a 1997 CRV to replace their BMW.

I'm sure they are since their M3s can only be driven briefly on Saturdays and Sundays during perfect weather conditions. You know it shouldn't be driven as a daily driver at its current age and mileage. They probably could only afford 10 year old beaters since they have to save their money for those astronomical maintenance cost to keep the Bimmer running. M3s can't endure the incredible stress of being driven more than 12,000 miles a year.

Oooooo. Gotta love how BMW paints their interior plastics! Actually every BMW model suffers this malody. See it all of the time.

allthingshonda, where is all that hostility coming from? Or is it jealousy?

Your comments are unfounded. This is not an exotic that requires frequent maintenance, M3's can be driven as daily drivers and lots of them have over 100k miles without problems. I find it comical that an I-6 engine that can rev to 8000 rpm cannot "endure the stresses of being driven more than 12,000 miles a year". That comment is just plain stupid.

If you are trying to compare an M3 to a CR-V, you have obviously missed the point.

Roadburner - "That said, while I was looking at a couple of E46 M3s I now find myself drawn to a 2003 540i six speed. It's about one-half second slower than the M3 in the 0-60 dash, but it's also a bit more comfortable and practical for a daily driver. It's obviously no track star, but it would make a nice geezer-mobile for my current semi-retirement. I can always take the Club "

Dude....you should see what a few people have done to their 540i/6 to make them track cars. Granted, it'd be easier to just buy an M5 from the start, but M5's have alot more to go wrong with them too...

Swap in a 3.15 rear diff w/ LSD, a set of struts, upgraded brake pads and fluid, and a set of track-day rubber. The powerband on the 4.4 liter V8 allows you to do whatever the heck you want, whenever the heck you want. I'll try to find the link of the guy beating modern 'vettes around the track with a setup similar to what I described.

Everytime I think about picking up a different vehicle than an e39 540i/6, I remember that I'd miss the v8 grumble, the effortless torque, the exterior styling, and the other areas.

Of course, now I'm starting to talk about building a house due to low building costs, so dreams of BMWs have to wait for the garage to be finished :)

Joe

"Oooooo. Gotta love how BMW paints their interior plastics! Actually every BMW model suffers this malody. See it all of the time. "

They paint the interior plastics?? Are you serious?!?

The last time I saw that level of cost cutting cheesyness was in a Hyundai XG350. They painted the plastics such as the door armrest, so by the time there was 50,000 miles worth of elbow resting on it, the beige interior paint color wore off, and showed the black plastic the part was molded from. Looked horrible, and Hyundai wouldn't replace it under warranty - "normal wear and tear" they told my friend who bought it.

Not for nothing, but I know for a fact that Ford and GM at least molds the interior color into the plastic part itself throughout, and do not paint the plastic, particularly on a wear area like armrests.

By stingray454 - Yeah. It is said that they do it because it gives it a richer look. I quess it kind of does...right up to the point that it starts scratching and wearing off!!!

"I'm sure they are since their M3s can only be driven briefly on Saturdays and Sundays during perfect weather conditions."

May be your driving ability wouldn't allow you that, but if it eases your envy, keep on believing it.

"You know it shouldn't be driven as a daily driver at its current age and mileage. They probably could only afford 10 year old beaters since they have to save their money for those astronomical maintenance cost to keep the Bimmer running."

Yep, that's me. I'm running three(soon to be four) BMWs. Guess I should be looking for a good Chapter 7 attorney...

"M3s can't endure the incredible stress of being driven more than 12,000 miles a year."

Talk about a sour grapes syndrome...

"Dude....you should see what a few people have done to their 540i/6 to make them track cars. Granted, it'd be easier to just buy an M5 from the start, but M5's have alot more to go wrong with them too..."

I'm stuck in the middle of the great Kentucky Ice Storm of 2009 at present- with about 15 trees lying across my half-mile driveway. Hopefully the weather is discouraging any other potential 540i enthusiasts. It's a beauty; Topaz Blue with gray leather. Every option save navigation. The only down side is the car is wearing 17" Borbets with Michelin snows. The PO kept the staggered 18x8/18x9 M Parallel wheels. I'll have to find something to replace them- maybe some M5 take-offs.

Roadburner, the car sounds nice. I often think about getting one down the line too. The M5 is an amazing car but suffers from that carbon build-up problem that is expensive to fix (uh oh, I'm giving allthingshonda some ammo here!).

Show us some pix if you do buy it. M5 wheels would be great, or almost any BBS wheel looks good on BMW's.

"They paint the interior plastics?? Are you serious?!?"

It's not paint; it's a soft rubberized coating that is only applied to the hard plastics. The first cars so equipped did scratch easily; the console and cupholder on my wife's 16,500 mile CPO X3 looked awful when we bought it. The pieces were replaced under warranty soon after and now at 75,000 miles the replacement pieces still look brand new. If you want to see scratches and wear, chck out the door panels, shift knob, and faux aluminum trim on my 31,000 mile Mazdaspeed 3. My 1995 3 Series has 114,000 miles on the clock and aside from a small bit of wear on the left seat bolster it looks excellent.

"The M5 is an amazing car but suffers from that carbon build-up problem that is expensive to fix"

The the clooged air injection passages do trigger a CEL but the condition has absolutely no effect on fuel economy, performance, or reliability. There is at least one tuner who offers a re-flash that causes the OBD II to ignore the condition and thus, no light. That said, I think the 540i is a much more practical-and less expensive- proposition for me.

I DD my M3. Expensive maintenance?

Figure $1000-$1500 for an inspection every ~2 years at 12,000/mi per year.

Pads/tires a little more often than normal if you track it. Street pads are maybe $140 if you get something really zany, tires can be $800-$1500 depending. Maybe one set per year if you really bang on it.

I do interval oil changes (5,000 miles) and 10W-60 is not cheap at ~$10/litre (takes six).

Is that expensive? Yeah, more than a CR-V. But as a DIY car, it's remarkably easy to work on, it's got a massive user-base from which to draw knowledge, and there are many indie shops that won't charge what a Bimmer dealer does when you need something huge done.

The engine itself is strong and many have held up well past 150k miles despite being tracked quite a bit. Compared to the E30 M3, it's a paragon of durability.

That's a good analysis of the maintenance cost, but what about non-routine repairs? Edmund's M3 has had quite a few items break on it requiring repair and parts replacement outside of maintenance. In almost every instance, parts were very expensive, and labor too (of course dealer labor isn't reasonable - that's a known potential cost savings by DIY or taking to an indy shop, but still expensive).

"The engine itself is strong and many have held up well past 150k miles despite being tracked quite a bit. Compared to the E30 M3, it's a paragon of durability."

What about all of the E46 M3 engines that spun their main bearings and grenaded, at an almost alarming rate, to the point BMW issued 2 recalls on it, and extended the warranty to 100k to cover the problem? I would hardly call that a paragon of durability. Don't get me wrong, it's a great engine, but I wouldn't describe it as durable or low maintenance.

10-15, oil changes every 5k miles is overkill for the M3, and you're wasting your time, money, and resources (oil + filter element). Most modern cars specify an OCI of 5000-7500 miles, and that's with conventional oil. Synthetic oil has a much greater capacity for heat and trapping contaminant and debris. To support or ease your paranoia, send off your oil to Blackstone or another oil analysis place and see what they say about your oil's life after 5k miles. I know most M3 owners do intermediate oil changes when the service counter hits 7500, and that would reduce your oil changes by 1 per service cycle.

Since I only drive my M3 about 5k per year, I actually have an OCI of 5k miles, but that's because I change it annually, as opposed to mileage-based.

Stingray, the rod bearing issue affected ONLY '01-early '03 models, and the failure rate on recalled & repaired engines (and those manufactured post '03.5) for that issue is approaching zero. I spend a lot of time at M3forum, and I have *never* heard of it on a post-03.5 MY car. This is sort of an S54 old wive's tale that pops up frequently... the S54 is durable relative to the S21 (E30 M3) and that's all I was saying. The plant is good to 150k+ (as several M3forum.net members can attest), and that's pretty remarkable for an NA plant that's putting out a little better than 100bhp+/liter, especially one that revs to 8k.

It's a good point on the parts... many are not cheap, nor is labor, but lets be fair here; Edmunds (as far as I know) hasn't exactly done due diligence. They didn't get the valve adjustment (which is required) at inspection, they've given no indication that they do interval oil changes (I'm aware BMW says 15k is okay), and we don't know if the PO did either. It's also an '02. Have some minor items like door motors gone out? Yes... but the car hasn't left them standing afaik, despite what I would call "non-enthusiast" treatment. For a car that's seen this kind of track duty and can still be DD'd (think Porsche), I'd say its maintenance costs are supremely reasonable.

FWIW, the big ticket failure item in an M3 anymore is really the rear sub-frame tear. It's uncommon, but it does happen. '05-'06 cars had factory reinforcement (or so I have heard) but it's still an issue.

"What about all of the E46 M3 engines that spun their main bearings and grenaded, at an almost alarming rate, to the point BMW issued 2 recalls on it, and extended the warranty to 100k to cover the problem? I would hardly call that a paragon of durability."

That happened early on and BMW has fixed the problem. There should be no M3's out there that haven't had their bearings replaced. So yes, I would say the engine is durable. I'd consider something to not be durable if it breaks and gets replaced with the same faulty parts, only to break again down the road. In the S54 engine's case, a re-design has cured the problem. They don't just put in a new faulty motor and send you on their way.

^^+1, what he said. Also... S14 (E30 M3) not S21. Not sure what the hell I was thinking, but when I was re-reading it, I was like "WTF IS AN S21?" ;)