2009 Nissan GT-R: No Alignment Needed

I think the Nissan engineer just wanted a joyride in the lizard.

Then go ahead and buy your overpriced Porsche who got beat on the 'Ring and yet CRIED day and night who Nissan "cheated". And by the way, GT-R goes faster than a 911 Turbo in a straight line, numerous tests had been done. If you got the money, go ahead and buy the name Porsche. Want another example? McLaren SLR will cost you over $400K and yet GT-R has already beaten in 0-60 (3.7 vs. 3.2), skidpad (0.97g vs. 0.99g), etc.

Colossal pain in the ass? I say colossal expensive for people with money who can't think.

pmpvtkc - I mistyped. I know the Nissan goes faster than the 911.

I think that for $80,000 you can have an all-around "quality" driving experience in an iconic vehicle like the 911 OR you can go really really fast in a straight line in an oddly and cheaply styled Nissan.

It wasn't meant to insult you or anything. Yes, Nissan is made cheaper than the Porsche, everyone knows that. All I'm saying was if people have the money then get the leather and all the dead animal skins in their car. But if you want performance, why would you pay twice as much for it. And Nissan isn't any unreliable automaker either, year after year, Consumer Report and other sources have indicate shown very good reliability in their line up. Does 911 Turbo have the multifunction display? And I almost forgot, 911 Turbo has a drag coefficient of 0.31 and GT-R has 0.27, you say cheaply styled / design? I am no mathematician but sounds like GT-R has less drag and better design with air flow at high speed.

And since we both are on Edmunds Inside Line, let's remind ourselves about this test:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=124017

There's no doubt the GT_R is a better performer. But I agree with cole. For the money, I personally would rather have a Porsche. It's not rational or logical, it's purely emotional. Since childhood, I've always wanted a Ferrari. Still a child, I decided if I couldn't get a Ferrari, I'd get a Porsche. And if not a Porsche, then a Corvette. And I'd still rather have any of those three than a GT-R. (If I was really rich, I'd have all four, but the GT-R would be the fourth.) In the real world, public roads, they're all more than enough. It's about style, and those Hot Wheels I played with (and still play with, with my sons).

I'm not going to argue about track performance or drag coefficients as I don't drive my cars on race tracks.

I'm just saying, I saw a stock 2002 Porshe 911 the other day with 53,000 miles on it and it looked perfect inside and out. These cars have nice sheet metal and nice interiors and they age well.

I think these GT-R's are going to be falling apart inside and out in 3 years, (hell, most of them already are falling apart and they're 3 months old). By Year 6 their resale value will be $24,999.

I just don't see the value proposition here.

Ok, so your GT-R can go faster in a straight line (to 60, mind you) by flipping several switches, voiding your warranty in the process, and then allowing the computer to do it's magic.

All the sudden, you have a very, very expensive car with a tendency to break and a voided warranty. I'm so happy the car is geared to do ungodly things in first gear and can achieve 60 without shifting.

A 2009 Porsche Carerra (or 911), non S model, 6-speed, is now clocked at a 4.5 second 0-60 run. (Since the addition of direct injection to the series).

And it'll get decent gas mileage, retain awesome value, and is quality inside and out.

Like every other "godzilla" before it, this is an $80k toy that will be eclipsed in a few years.

Joe

P.s. I'm one of those people who doubt the GT-R hit the 'Ring time in stock configuration. This isn't a timed event by an independent authorizing agency people, this is Nissan taking a GT-R they say was in showroom condition to the ring and posting the times. Lets see some owners or independent groups do it....Porsche posted a time nearly 30 seconds longer. They didn't use a novice driver. Perhaps another 15 seconds could be shaved off for circumstances or other factors....but 30 seconds? C'mon.

Porsche is just calling their bluff until they back it up publicly.

A Nissan engineer noticed a problem and thought it might be the alignment. It turns out that it wasn't the alignment. Anyone curious as to what the problem really is?

"I'm just saying, I saw a stock 2002 Porshe 911 the other day with 53,000 miles on it and it looked perfect inside and out. These cars have nice sheet metal and nice interiors and they age well. "

If you don't think a used Porsche will own your wallet, you're dilusional. Porsche parts are EXPENSIVE. Porsche labor is EXPENSIVE, and for the most part, they are NOT easy to work on (need to change the spark plugs in a 911 turbo? remove the engine first - no kidding).

Ask owners of older Porsches, especially those who track their cars - they are not cheap to keep running.

If you want inexpensive track durability and low maintenance and operating costs, you can't do better than a C5 or C6 Corvette.

Stingray - I agree for the most part. There are some older Porsche's that are ideal (i.e. an 89 911 or even an 82 911 SC) for maintenance costs. If you avoid the dealership and can do some DIY stuff, even modern Porsches aren't that expensive for the breed of car.

My father, God bless him, just dropped $1600 on a replacement radiator expansion tank and an oil change for a '99 Boxster. I'm no expert mechanic, and I could've done both for him for under $300. In a few hours. Using tools I keep in a townhome without a garage.

I recently looked at how much my 06 Civic SI costs me yearly with me doing all maintenance. It's amazing....not as cheap as you'd expect. I'm thinking about picking up a 2003 BMW 540i 6-speed and I think it would only cost me an extra $500-750 a year to maintain. That sounds like alot, but it's not that expensive to get into the car anymore and it's not depreciating as much as a newer vehicle.

Joe

First off, who cares about "track durability"? Maybe like 300 people in the U.S. The rest of us care about what we're driving the other 12,000 miles per year and C5, C6 (though impressive perhaps to the 55 year old divorced crowd) doesn't do much for me.

As for cost to repair/maintain - yes Porsche will cost money, but so will BMW, AUDI, and apparently now Nissan. So that's the price you pay for a imported sports car.

Brn, you read my mind. If a Nissan engineer thinks it isn't driving correctly, and its not the alignment, what is it?
I wouldn't be able to stand all these problems on a new econobox, let alone spending $80k and still dealing with this nonsense.

The Porsche vs Nissan argument is stupid. First, it's not like this is a Sentra or something. Second, people with money don't sit around comparing the numbers asking which is a better 'value'. The only ones that do that are those who can't afford these cars or can marginally afford it . You either buy the GTR because you are a fan of the GTR or you buy the 911 because you are a fan of the 911. Chances are, if you can afford the 911 you can probably buy both cars. The only ones that sit around arguing numbers and which they would rather have are those who can't afford it. For those saying this car is a pain in the ass, yes it probably is after all it's a "supercar". Do you think owning a Lambo or Ferrari isn't a pain in the ass and expensive as far as maintenance or up keep?

Here's my conspiracy theory. The engineer hit a curb and wanted to convince you that it had been doing that all along. ;)

flwind - perhaps you're right. I for one can not afford an $80,000 car right now, (though I've got two $45,000 cars so if I could just convince my wife she doesn't need hers....).

But anyway, I just feel like this Nissan is going to be the new millenium's version of a Mitsubishi 3000 GT. Compare a 15-year old one of those to a 15 year-old Porsche. That's my argument. This nissan is going to age like ass.

"Stupid"? Kinda harsh, we're just having a little fun. I'm sure even people with real money sit around and deliberate with their buddies which awesome car they should buy.

I agree with cole, again. The GT-R appeals to people who always want the latest cutting edge technology. Nobody keeps their 5-year-old computer because it was so awesome when it first came out. They dump it and trade up for the next gadget as soon as they can afford it. Porsche buyers are probably more interested in how good they'll still look in the thing 10 years later. The 911 is an icon. The GT-R is more like an iPod.

"First off, who cares about "track durability"? Maybe like 300 people in the U.S."

Me, and there's WAY more people into track driving than 300. Hell, there's 300 people that show up at ONE HPDE that I go to. That's one HPDE out of probably thousands held around the country on any given day in the U.S.

Not to mention, track durability usually equates to street durability as well. If something is going to break, it'll break on the track quickly. If the car holds up on the track, holding up on the street is a walk in the park.

" The rest of us care about what we're driving the other 12,000 miles per year and C5, C6 (though impressive perhaps to the 55 year old divorced crowd) doesn't do much for me. "

Oh, another stupid stereotyper. You just said you're a poseur whether you realized it or not. Which is what I thought you were anyway. Someone who buys a car to compensate for something else they are lacking, and only cares about what other people think of them in the car they bought, not what the car's performance is or what it offers. I feel sorry for you.

I'm MUCH younger than 55, and more than 50% of the Z06 owners I know are in their 20's and 30's. So I don't think your stereotype of all Corvette owners being balding divorced senior citizens is even close to accurate. But regardless, unlike you, I have plenty of self confidence that I could care less what other people think of me as I enjoy my Z06. If someone sees my car and thinks there must be a bald old dude inside wearing gold chains and bad cologne - let 'em think that. I could care less.

"As for cost to repair/maintain - yes Porsche will cost money, but so will BMW, AUDI, and apparently now Nissan. So that's the price you pay for a imported sports car. "

Yeah, and that's one of the reasons I generally avoid imported sports cars. If you want to make donations to Germany and Japan, knock yourself out. I kind of like the country I live in. I guess you don't. Maybe you should move.

Stingray - why so angry? Is it because your looking at the interior of your Corvette and thinking, "I paid $65,000 for THIS!?!"

;-)

Despite being horribly biased (I love 911s from the original 912 to the current 997), I think Edmunds' next long termer needs to be a base 911 Carrera with a stick. That way, they can compare how these two expensive pieces of automotive goodness are on a daily basis. Oh, and throw in the adaptive sport seats and Carrera classic wheels and you'll be right around $80k...

Oops, made a mistake there, meant to say 'original 901'. Time to take my car enthusiast card away! Too bad there is no edit feature...

ha, surprise surprise an article about the GT-R and a three way battle between porsche, corvette and it broke out.

Staying away from the whole car wars thing I will say this, Stingray pegged you pretty well Cole. If you want a porsche to make people think you're some cool rich guy then go for it, just to bash other cars just because you want everyone else to conform to your beliefs. Especially without any real reasoning.

Porsche is just suffering from sour grapes because Nissan out-engineered them (no surprise.)

This is a track car- Porsche's are for middle-aged guys compensating for something.

"For those saying this car is a pain in the ass, yes it probably is after all it's a "supercar"."

That's the point - Nowadays, Supercars like the Corvette Z06 and Porsche 911 are not pains in the ass. Even Ferrari has gotten damn near reliable since the NSX. Buying an unreliable exotic (i'm looking at you Maserati, Aston Martin, and Lambo) "supercar" is for reasons other than performance.

Stingray, Brett, and Mike - You are foolish if you think you buy cars strictly for performance or some related category.

Stingray - You yourself specified you take pride in buying American and sending your money to America. You don't care about "image" but you care about "pride".

If all you cared about was performance, I doubt you'd be driving a Z06 (not that it isn't one of the finest performance machines, just that more performance can be had for less money). So obviously there are outside influencers.

People who buy cars for cachet or a "look" is fine. We all dress and behave certain ways for a reaction. Car buying is just a more blatant way of trying to attract some form of attention. Stop trying to make fun of people for the same type of behavior we all exhibit.

Joe

P.s. Stingray - I love my country but I'm not very fond of my domestic automakers. Chrysler's been making crap for years. GM can wield the Corvette and a few other quality products, but continues to badge engineer and be boneheaded in general. Ditto Ford.

I don't encourage bad management by sending them more money, despite the valuable workers that my decision may affect. And nowadays, by buying my Honda or Subaru I'm only sending about 10-15% less money outside of the U.S. than if I had bought an American product. I can live with those few thousand dollars going elsewhere to help send a message. It's called consumer activism.

But I'm being tempted by products like the G8, CTS, Corvette, and even the Mazdaspeed 3. So hopefully they'll continue :)

"By coletrickle on October 21, 2008 8:44 AM
Stingray - why so angry? Is it because your looking at the interior of your Corvette and thinking, "I paid $65,000 for THIS!?!"

I'm not angry. I laugh at people like you.

I own a 2002 Z06, which I bought new. I paid much less than $65k.

The interior of my car isn't the greatest, but its not bad either. I can assure you though, when driving my car, the interior is the LAST thing on my mind (and the passenger's). ;) 0-60 in 4.0 seconds, 1/4 mile in 12.4 seconds @ 117 mpg, 1.0 g's on the skidpad, 60-0 braking in 104 ft., along with 405hp requires your undivided attention to driving - not staring at the interior. And that was when my car was stock - it's even quicker than that now.

More importantly, the car and its interior have held up well over the years. Virtually nothing has broken on the car in 43k miles, in spite of some very hard driving including HPDE road course and autocross time. The interior looks like new with the exception of driver's seat leather (the seats suck all around - I'll admit that). I plan to upgrade the seats soon anyway. Not bad for a 6 year old car that will still suck the doors off of any NEW Porsche except for the 911 turbo and 911 GT2/GT3.

You should really let this go - this thread is about the GT-R - not Porsches or Corvettes.

Despite its problems, I would still take the GT-R over an $80k Porsche 911 Carrera S. But I would still take a $70k Z06 over both, even with its mediocre interior (it's not like the 911 or GT-R's interiors are all that great either).

"By joefrompa on October 21, 2008 11:06 AM
Stingray, Brett, and Mike - You are foolish if you think you buy cars strictly for performance or some related category. "

That's an idiotic statement to make. I'm foolish for buying a car that offers the most performance? How did you draw that conclusion? Am I even more foolish for buying a car that offers the most performance for the money? Are you saying I should buy a car that offers the least performance?

"Stingray - You yourself specified you take pride in buying American and sending your money to America. You don't care about "image" but you care about "pride"."

I'm just very discouraged with people like you, who are comprising a larger and larger percentage of the American population, who seemingly have no pride in the country they live in, and don't even think twice about the products they are buying, where they are made, and what it really means when you buy something imported, especially from countries who don't practice fair trade (Japan, China, and Korea are three examples). People like you act like it doesn't matter, then you complain when the economy is in the gutter, and wonder where all the manufacturing jobs in the U.S. went. Wake up! It DOES matter!

"If all you cared about was performance, I doubt you'd be driving a Z06 (not that it isn't one of the finest performance machines, just that more performance can be had for less money)."

Name ONE car that offers more performance for less money than the Z06. Both in 2002 and today.

" So obviously there are outside influencers."

The only other influences in my purchase decision was durability, ease of maintenance and low cost of ownership. As I mentioned before, I originally had a 2002 BMW M3 on order - I was on the wait list for one with a deposit at the dealership for 6 months before changing my mind and buying the Z06. The two biggest reasons for changing my mind on the M3 were: 1) the Z06 offered significantly more performance, and 2) it was becoming clear to me that the M3 would not be easy and inexpensive to maintain, and the Z06 was definitely offering lower cost of ownership.

But I suppose that kind of logic makes me "foolish" in your book, right?

OK, OK, you really like Corvettes, I get it.

I'm simply stating that I don't have a good feeling about the build quality of this $80,000 Nissan, but I do think the build quality of a 911 is on par with its price tag.

Will they both experience expensive maintenance issues? Probably.

Will the Porsche age better than this Nissan? I think so. I think those sharp lines on the Nissan's body are "trendy" and even though that computer read-out thingy looks cool today, it will be dated as hell in 3 years.

I would like to own the Nissan for 6 months, but I'd rather own the 911 for 6 years.

Just my opinion.

Stingray - I don't think you actually read my response; you seem to have cherry-picked certain sentences. I'll go through in an orderly fashion:

"I'm just very discouraged with people like you, who are comprising a larger and larger percentage of the American population, who seemingly have no pride in the country they live in, and don't even think twice about the products they are buying..."

First off - Don't comprise the domestic automakers to be "the country". It's just a foolish sentiment. Our domestic automakers have had some of the poorest senior management/leadership of any organization I've ever seen. Combined with unions looking 5 weeks ahead instead of 5 years, they have bled our country of one of it's strongest domestic manufacturing. So yes, I consider myself patriotic in rejecting their terrible business practices and taking my money elsewhere. To buy a product from such a company is to support such practices. Do you? Do you support their request to rely on the Amerian taxpayer to help them re-shape? I'm against government supporting poorly run private businesses, personally. And their poor economic status is the result of multiple decades of poor management and not sudden economic turns.

"People like you act like it doesn't matter, then you complain when the economy is in the gutter, and wonder where all the manufacturing jobs in the U.S. went. "

Thanks for pre-judging my character. Your a real champ.

"Name ONE car that offers more performance for less money than the Z06. Both in 2002 and today. "

My point was that it is very easy to obtain a car with superior performance for much less than the 50-60k you paid for your Z06. Personally, I'd do so through modifying a car that costs alot less. You've shown yourself to be no stranger to modifying. My point was that max performance was not your only objective...so why judge others when they buy for other objectives than maximum performance per dollar?

Lastly....you asked what makes you foolish in my book? Your judgemental attitude. Your assumptions. Your lack of comprehensive reading of what other people write.

That doesn't make you a fool. It makes you acting foolish. I've done it too...I'm just pointing it out now.

Joe

Can't we all get along?

I'm not bashing but I am surprised by how much time, energy, etc. has been spent keeping the GT-R running right. Having owned the last Japanese supercar (a 1998 NSX), I can attest to the fact that its reasonable to assume that an exotic sports car can and should be trouble free.

You can go on and on about the differences in the technology between my old NSX and this GT-R and I partially conceded that point, but don't forget that times have changed too. The avg. base Miata today has a ton more technology than the first generation Miata did. That doesn't mean we should expect it to be less carefree to drive. Does it?

PS - My "inferior" and admittedly slower 2008 911 Carrera S has been an absolute joy to drive in the 7 months I've owned it and so far (knock on wood) it's been absolutely trouble free other than a painfully long break in period. Plus I have the joy of driving a real, proper, manual transmission. I could care less that the GT-R will outdrag me all day long. I don't drag race anyways. But I love executing a proper upshift and heel/toe downshift. As much as I respect the GT-R for what it is, I'm left emotionally flacid over a car that doesn't even offer me a true manual.

I'm just curious, but is there a log anywhere totaling up the amount of money spent maintaining the GT-R so far? Or has everything just been "covered under warranty" (i.e. Nissan pays for it so they don't look bad)?

As far as the discussion about which car goes, it's kind of a dumb thing to try to objectify. It's very difficult (dare I say, impossible) to be objective about cars. Some brands will tug at your heartstrings no matter what the cold numbers say, and some won't.

Some people will buy car X over car Y simply because the cold numbers are better. Some people just don't care if car X is .02 quicker to 60mph or 1 mph quicker in the 1/4, because they want the intangibles of car Y. They might not care that car X can match car Y at a cheaper price because their golf club buddies, 20 group members, childhood fantasy, or spouse thinks that they should go with Y instead.

When it comes down to it, people will buy cars they want and like, and if the cars are expensive, that's even more true, because if they don't like it, they'll just trade it in and buy the other one in 2 months anyway.

~FtB

P.S. The comment about 911 is an icon, GT-R is an i-Pod cracked me up. +1 internets to ahightower

i wonder what the profit margins are for each GTR and Porsche? I'm assuming that the mfg. costs for each product are similar, but Porsche probably gets a lot more profit because of a strong brand image than Nissan.

"I wonder what the profit margins are for each GTR and Porsche? I'm assuming that the mfg. costs for each product are similar, but Porsche probably gets a lot more profit because of a strong brand image than Nissan."

Last time I heard Porsche made more money per vehicle than any other manufacturer.

As much as I respect the Corvette its certainly not 100% perfect Sting. No car is 100% reliable or unbreakable as EVERYTHING has defects.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeO56-smgxI

"Last time I heard Porsche made more money per vehicle than any other manufacturer."

The remarkable thing is that Porsche was almost Dead a mere 15 years ago, but smart management decisions saved the company. IMO,I seriously doubt GM, Ford, or Chrysler will be able to have the same success. Not because the people who run those companies aren't competent and capable. It is simply because the Big three is too big to save itself.

Stingray; I agree with you about the Z06. It's a fantastic value and for the price, has no equal.

But think how much better it could be if it's interior WAS equal or better than a Porsche.-Just sayin'

"By Year 6 their resale value will be $24,999".

I hope so :) I really like this car, and even though it's styling looks like Chris Bangle on crack, it's still pretty awesome.

Are there a significant ammount of problems being reported about other GT-R's (other than the one in the IL fleet)? I'd be interested to know.

After all, this car IS an early production model, and don't most new models, regardless who makes them, tend to have a couple of lemons in the bunch?

The IL fleet got a lemon, and it's a shame. But I don't think for a minute that every single one of them are flawed. I'm willing to bet that a well-maintained GT-R will last a very, very long time. This IS Nissan we're talking about.

Stingray, you are the only Vette owner that respects the GT-R(you probably are the only one judging by the comments on this page), instead of judging a cars performance by playing the oh so famous, power to weight ratio, a card often played by Vette fanboys(again, they don't really own a ZO6). OR the Porche fanboys going on about reliability and a nice interior. Looks? I could equally say that all the Porches have the same design with minor changes so why buy a car that looks the same as one 20 years ago?

The 911 is iconic. Yes, so iconic that it got thrashed by a Nissan in its own home'ring.

GT-R a ringer? Didn't Porche say that the GT-R was running on different tyres in order to have the lap time of 7.29? (The only excuse they could come up with). Didn't Nissan also release another video showing the lap time alon with a closeup of the tyres? The Porche fans seems to have missed that one. Or are they still harping about the interior? So one is paying almost twice as much for the better interior of a 911 Turbo? Thats actually pretty stupid.

To whoever made the multifunction display joke, lets see Porche come up with that 3 years from now. You'd think they would have something like that in a racing icon.

Anyway, back to you Stingray. Thanks for being a true car fan and writing something worth reading about. And enjoy your Vette. Those things are fast but Iam not really a fan (pushrod is not my style nor am I a fan of leaf suspensions). I've heard that the seats are not that good so with the mods, I'd advice a set of Recaros if you also feel they are unsupportive.

Iam done with this topic.

I thought this was supposed to be a blog entry about a mystery problem with the GT-R. Boy did it get off track.

Are the symptoms that the engineer noticed still around?

"hondacura4 on October 21, 2008 5:22 PM
As much as I respect the Corvette its certainly not 100% perfect Sting. No car is 100% reliable or unbreakable as EVERYTHING has defects."

hondacura4 - I NEVER said the Corvette was perfect, or 100% reliable or unbreakable. Why don't you read before making such statements?

Better yet, why don't you back to the Honda dealership you must work for and continue to praise all the virtues of Hondas, which I hope you at least get paid to do.

Ace47 - Can you link to the GT-R video showing a close-up of the tires? I've heard they released another video of the run...but not that it showed the actual tires.

Porsche tested the GT-R....as any good manufacturer who was bested would do....and found the GT-R was SO much different than the time Nissan achieved that something must have been drastically different. As tires are a singular component that can result in such a drastic time difference, Porsche pointed at that (vs. a specially tuned suspension or extra power or track-duty race pads).

I don't claim I know what time the GT-R truly proves. But I also don't necessarily believe Nissan's claim independent of another tester testing several cars on the same day.

Joe

" So yes, I consider myself patriotic in rejecting their terrible business practices and taking my money elsewhere. To buy a product from such a company is to support such practices."

You speak as if the U.S. automakers make the worst vehicles in the world. With a few exceptions, American cars are at least very competitive, and in some cases superior, to the foreign competition. Take the Malibu for example. The new Malibu has been well received by the press, and highly regarded as an excellent competitor to the Accord and Camry. It's won quality awards, design awards, you name it. Yet the Accord and Camry outsell the Malibu like 4 to 1. It's not like it's reputation is the problem - while the old Malibu was a yawner, it wasn't horrible either. The reason people don't consider the Malibu is because the average American doesn't give a crap about who they buy their car from, or where it is made. All I'm saying is they SHOULD care.

In Japan they certainly give a crap - the Japanese car consumer almost exclusively buys from their home country manufacturers. They have pride in their companies and in their country. They have every right to, and so do we. American car manufacturing is nothing to be ashamed of. We can design and build excellent vehicles competitive with the best the world has to offer. We can and do.

"Do you? Do you support their request to rely on the Amerian taxpayer to help them re-shape?
I'm against government supporting poorly run private businesses, personally."

No. I'm generally against government support of any company, other than to support fair and equal trade with other countries. I think it's a waste of money for the government to give guaranteed loans and subsidies to help the U.S. automakers - I think the U.S. automakers will make it fine on their own.

While I try to buy American when I can, I'm not a blind Made in the U.S.A. supporter. I'll buy and American made car or product only when the American manufacturer offers a competitive or superior product. Sometimes they don't, in which case I buy foreign. For example, I bought an Infiniti G35 Coupe in 2003. Great car (not without it's problems, but I still liked it), and no American automaker sold a competitive coupe at the time.

"And their poor economic status is the result of multiple decades of poor management and not sudden economic turns."

Depends on the automaker - Ford's problems are for different reasons than GM's which are different than Chrysler's. You can't generalize here. The only thing I slam all three management's with is not properly investing in small fuel efficient cars all along. For the most part, the Big 3's small car offerings were weak at best when compared to cars like the Civic, Corolla, and Sentra. They didn't invest in small cars because there were no easy profits in them. That was short-sighted.

"My point was that it is very easy to obtain a car with superior performance for much less than the 50-60k you paid for your Z06. Personally, I'd do so through modifying a car that costs alot less."

You didn't say anything about modified cars. Of course you can modify any car to be faster than any stock car. Everyone knows that. I can modify a Hyundai Elantra to be faster than any Ferrari sold. So what?

I'm talking stock. Factory stock.

"so why judge others when they buy for other objectives than maximum performance per dollar?"

I'm not "judging" them. Let's just say we're not on the same wavelength. If you like a slower, more expensive car because it "feels" better to you, or has nicer carpet, knock yourself out. I'm not going to judge you on it - I'm just not likely to agree with your decision.

Getting back on topic...

Right after said Nissan engineer got out of our GT-R and asked about the alignment, I let him know that our tire pressures were about 2 psi lower than normal. He said that could have been responsible, too.

Wow, jkavanagh -- see what havoc you've wreaked? All this could have been avoided had you merely mentioned the two psi lower tire pressure.
But after reading all this, I'm glad you didn't!

:)

He thought the alignment was off from a test drive around the block (which could've just been grade)? And he didn't check the tire pressure first and re-drive it?

Newb :)

Joe

P.s. Stingray - One comment....note I didn't generalize the problems of the 3 domestic automakers, I said it was due to years of mismanagement....all 3 have had terrible management for quite a long time. Lots of smart individuals, but poor leadership.

To your point...when I bought my Civic SI in 2006, they didn't have what I thought was a competitive product (I test drove the Cobalt SS). When I bought my 2008 Legacy GT with my wife....there were no RWD/AWD sedans for 25k with a manual transmission, heated power leather seats, fold down rear seat, the power of this car, and the mod-a-bility of this car (there aren't really any others like the Legacy GT, regardless of country of origin).

Personally, I like that my Subie was built in Indiana. I like keeping my money stateside. Heck, I've dropped more stateside on my american built kitchen cabinets and appliances than my car's so far....

Joe

So...to summarize.

Nissan GT-R goes really, really fast but seems pretty fragile and has already experienced a pretty ridiculous amount of mysterious maintenance issues, some of which have been fixed and some of which have not but will no doubt crop up again in a month.

As an owner and member of the NAGTROC forum, I see minimal problems with the GTR. No one on the forum has reported the same problem as IL. One member has reported a blown transmission, which is not being warranteed, due to turning off the VDC system. What there are are a lot of members who think the car is awesome.

"Better yet, why don't you back to the Honda dealership you must work for and continue to praise all the virtues of Hondas, which I hope you at least get paid to do."

Sting, Im a fan of (some not all) Honda products, yes. On the contrary I do recognize a great product when I see one regardless of manufacturer or country of origin, Corvette included.

Me work for Honda (HMC)? It'd be an intersting career but Ill stick to historic home renovation and landscape architecture for now.

I may have a bit of bias in regards to Honda (Im pretty sure everyone here has a brand preference) but you have a bias as well when it comes to the Corvette. If you look at some of my posts Ive (heavily) critisized the Honda Accord (sedan) quite a bit yet only given praise to the Malibu and the CTS. Im not as biased as you might think and I certainly dont believe Honda or Acura are perfect as I can bring up plently examples.

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What a lot of people here dont get is performance numbers alone dont tell the whole story. Sure the GTR and Corvette Z06 (and others) offer world class performance but they each use different methods of producing their performance, neither of which really strike a chord with me. That certainly doesnt make them bad cars, it just means I like a different method/approach when it comes to a high end high performance sports car.

To give everyone a clearer picture of the kind of high end sportscars I prefer..... If I was going to purchase a high performance sports car right now (purchase price not being an issue) Id buy a Porsche 911 GT3RS, a pre-owned Ferarri 360 Challenge Stradale or a Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4.

P.S. None of those are made by Honda. =)

Maybe the Nissan tech wasn't that familiar with the GT-R. Having never driven one, I can't comment, but in general for the cars with low profile tires that I have driven (all of which are also low to the ground) they tend to pull a bit more on uneven pavement. Maybe that was mistaken for a bad alignment.

Coletrickle, the lower end 911 models can't compete with the new GT-R even with the options selected. The GT-R's top speed and 0-60 times will still be quicker. The actual cheapest 911 model that comes close is the 911 Turbo which retails for $128,700 (not including the $107,000 GT3). But if money was not an issue I'd go with the GT3.

Everyone is still making it a numbers game. It is not a numbers game when it comes to buying cars like the GT-R or the 911 (in any variation). At this level, discounting the poseurs and bench racers (of which there are plenty), all of these cars are fast -- it is really down to whether the performance of the car is accessible to the owner, and whether the owner can actually do something with the car. I know lots of guys and gals who have serious high performance cars, but I leave them for dead on a twisty road in my 325i sport package because they don't know what they're doing or because they can't get to the point where their car becomes awesome, except in a straight line. And since I'm not stupid enough to race any of them in a straight line, it doesn't matter.
So yes, it is all about feel for me. If I can access the Porsche's performance because it allows me or because I have the talent to exploit it and I like how it feels when doing it, that's what I'm buying. If I can access the GT-R's performance and it feels good to me, I will consider it as well. But given the money, it's all about which car feels better to me.
And oh yes, looks do matter as well.

Spartanic, I know the 911 is not as fast as the GT-R.

There's more to a car than how fast it goes 0-60.