2008 Smart Fortwo: Dumb Money

Car dealership owners are idiots. Too bad you can't just buy cars off of Amazon. Ha ha.

Id glady take the Porsche.

Carfreak, I used to be a operations manager for Amazon.com and that idea came up more than a few times.

The only thing more amazing than that is the amount of folks who would likely walk right past the 911 and look at the Smart. Idiots.

lol. just bought a new car. almost 8k less then a smart car. 8k buys alot of gas.

I did a quick check of the local Buy and Sell and had no trouble finding a used 2006 Smart for $25K. Seems weird to me too as you can buy them new for under $15K.

I would pick the 10 year old Porsche too but I always see the value in a good used car over a lesser new car.

Hey opfreak, what did you end up with?

Ha ha! Great find. I can't believe that people are lining up in droves for this piece of crap. They are in for a surprise

Go back to that lot every week or two, snap a pic, see how many of those sell - $2.50 gas has got to pop that balloon!

That Porsche is just begging to be added to the long term fleet!!

HA! I wen to this dealership in Santa Monica several weeks ago and test drove that black Smart in the first pic. I just wanted to test drive it and see how bad it really was. I made up a story and explained that I already had a reservation for a $13k Pure, but couldn't wait for it and wanted to see if I could buy one of theirs TODAY. They were not going to budge on those prices and I just said it's worth the wait to save $10k. They looked at me in shock. Even more shocking is that anyone would pay $13-15k for this car, let alone $25k!

It drove terribly and just screams cheap. The worst traits were the jerky transmission, slow-responding brakes, and the laughable hood that is held to the car by a single strap.

$10,000 over sticker, wow! Guess you just can't underestimate the intelligence of some people.

I'd take a mint, low-mileage Miata for ten grand less. Let's compare the two: the Miata also seats only two, gets around 30 mpg, has about the same luggage space and boasts low maintenance costs and a bulletproof record for reliability.

Oh yeah, the Miata will also make you grin, rather than grimace, every time you drive it.

With the $9,000 left over, I could fit that puppy with a low-restriction intake and exhaust set-up, get a couple sets of sticky tires and buy plenty of track time...

Those prices are redamndiculous. I just bought my '08 4-Door GTI for significantly less than that, and it has a much better automated manual... ;) Not to mention that I got a more usable car and still best 31MPG on the Highway.

I first saw the Smart in Europe a few years ago and then when I learned it was coming across the pond, I was anxious to test drive it. After driving the Smart, I lost all desire for it entirely, regardless of the novelty of it.

The best part of the whole ordeal was after the test drive, the salesman asked me how I liked it. I responded by saying that the transmission is so terrible, it ruins any desirable traits the car has. His response?

"Oh, that's because of the small 1.0L engine, you have to get used to it. Do you want to put a deposit down now?"

I couldn't believe what I just heard and just walked away. What's even worse? He probably still works there...amazing...

Wow. Just wow.

I agree with tmanz!

-Cj

As P.T.Barnum said: "There is a sucker born every minute."

This makes me sad. Are there really people out there that are THAT dumb?
I also want that 911. Beautiful.

I have a wonderful idea! How about you guys trade in the new Mitsu and get the used 911 instead?

So whats wrong with the 911 to make it so cheap?

ended up with a 2dr rabbit.

after driving:

civic si
matrix s & xrs
impreza
mazda 3
mspd
mini
scion xb
honda fit.

"This makes me sad. Are there really people out there that are THAT dumb?"

Yep, LOTS of them. And they vote. Hence, Obama will win, and we will have an Obamanation. Obama will probably mandate that all Americans drive Smarts, so better get used to it.

Another vote for snagging that 911 for the LT Fleet. Hell, you could probably make an even trade for your used smart. No need to complete the 12 month test, we've had enough!

Johnnyturbo... the Miata's real world mileage is actually pretty bad. It's still worth it though, I'm glad I bought mine!

I worked for a guy who bought a year 2000 911 for around $30k. It was a sweet car, but catching up on maintenance made it a very expensive first year. People are right to be wary of a Porsche if the selling price is close to their maximum.

Hey Opfreakx, Congrats on the new car purchase. Those rabbits imo are pretty good deals for the money. you'll probably be plenty happy with it especially after driving around in a sunfire for the last however many years. Did you end up getting a 5spd? What did you end up paying for it if you don't mind me asking?

I second on trading the smart for that Porsche... LOL good idea ahightower!! that's like when the PT Cruiser first came out... people were paying almost $30k for a retro styled Neon Station Wagon!! People are silly...

Gratz on the new car opfreak. I'm a big fan of the Rabbit.

I had a 1999 Carrera and I got to say, while it was fun for a while, the maintenance costs rose exponentially past 50,000 miles and the plasticky interior was an abomination for a semi-exotic. I would recommend spending a little more for a newer model with interior upgrades.

Nice job on the rabbit...I think it's probably the best value for it's price in the market right now (or damn close).

Stingray - Really?

Porsche 911 - I definitely want Edmunds to get a Porsche at some point (c'mon, how come this brand has been absent for an enthusiast website?)

But not a '99 911. It's that cheap because the 99-2004 996 is considered the least desirable 911 of all the generations, due to the design. '99s are not the most reliable either.

Now a 97-98 "last of the air cooled" is a whole different ballgame :) Reliable and awesomeness....

Thanks for the non-sequiter, Stingray. You're a credit to whoever the other candidate is.

I would also be suspicious of the low price on that Carrera. But I will say one thing: That car does NOT look like it's 10 years old. What a beauty!

In all fairness to L.A., those stupid overpriced Smarts have now been on that lot for at least three weeks. No one's biting on them. Maybe if they knocked two grand off the price...

carlisimo, point taken. I should've clarified -- I was talking about a previous-gen Miata, say an '04 or '05. My ex-gf has an '04 LS and gets 25-30 mpg with it with the free-flow intake and exhaust.

Of course, my mileage would probably be lower ;) But what the heck, I've got $10,000 to play with here!

Congrats, opfreak! Enjoy your new Vee-Dub!

btw, was there any specific reason that you didn't try out any of the Big 3 offerings (Astra, Cobalt, etc)?

Please add that 996 Turbo for $61k to the long term fleet!

I always want to see how scary maintenance/repair/keep up cost is for an affordable 911 Turbo!

Yet another example of opfreakx blatant import bias. Didn't even try out an American car.

""ended up with a 2dr rabbit.

after driving:

civic si
matrix s & xrs
impreza
mazda 3
mspd
mini
scion xb
honda fit.""

Mazda is owned by Ford :)

Porsche 911's from the last generation, the "fried-egg headlight look", do not retain value like every other generation of Porsche.

You can get 2002-2003 911's of equal quality (and probably lower miles) for $30k+

Joe

"Porsche 911's from the last generation, the "fried-egg headlight look", do not retain value like every other generation of Porsche."

I always thought those headlights looked pretty good.

the only said thing is the rabbit is the 6spd auto.

there was one manual left for 200+ miles, and of course it came with 1300 dollar wheels, and a 2000 dollar body kit. If there was no body kit, i'd drive the stick, but i wasnt going to pay 2000 bucks for 4 pieces of plastic, It was nuts.

I paid ~17,200 for the rabbit.

why no dometics?

1) I wanted a wagon.

2) the domestics have 2 wagons. the vibe (matrix which I drove)

2)a - the other wagon is the Cailber. If I was in the truck market I'd look at dodge. I'm not, So I'm not buying a dodge.

3) the cobalt - I owned a sunfire, while the cobalt is heads and shoulders above, the change would be too little.

3)a - cobalt =/ wagon.

- The only none wagon I drove was the civic si. It was never seriously on the list.

The reasons for the VW vs the matrix/vibe, came to down price.

the vibe/matrix with the 2.4, priced out much higher then the rabbit.

Just as an FYI, the martix/vibe, with irs (xrs/gt) models both price out WAYY more then the rabbit.

Cant wait to pick it up today.

Just debating as to weather or not too pull out the amp/speakers/stero from the sunfire. Speakers and amp actually worth something.

did you trade the sunfire? lots of people looking for cheap cars. Probably can sell it easy. If you sell it leave in the basic stereo same if trading it in. move the amp/sub to the new car or sell them seperately. people don't really pay extra for that stuff especially on an old car.

Doug - You are weird. :)

Joe

I agree, that generation of 911 is the least desirable and has the most problems (rear main seal leak\failure anyone?). I'd have to either say a mid\late 80s 911 or a new one for Edmunds' fleet. Seriously, you guys got a Ford GT, Nissan GT-R, an old Ferrari and an R8; yet a 911 remains absent! Please go with one of the original sports cars soon!

I also just bought a 2008 Rabbit 4-door after driving:

Toyota Corolla S (no hatchback available)
Toyota Matrix S (too ugly)
Scion xD and xB (no sunroof available)
Subaru Impreza 2.5i (no sunroof available. Was second choice. Sunroof now available for '09)
Mazda 3 5-door (insurance too expensive)
Toyota Tacoma 2WD (not a truck kind of guy)
Saturn Astra 5-door (resale value concerns)
Honda Fit (no sunroof)
Pontiac Vibe GT (decent, but just didn't love it)

I traded it in, I was lazy, I checked ebay for price compersion, and got what I think was very fair value.

No sunroof is a negative?

I'd much prefer to have the extra headroom, greater structural rigidity, and reduced weight of a sunroof-less car.

:)

Now if they had 3 911's for a comparison test, that'd make sense.

An 1982 911 SC, A 1997 911, and a ~2005 911...

And it'd cost about the same as the Evos and Lancer combined :)

Joe

Fair point on the wagon, opfreak. I can see that. The only other competitor may have been the Astra, but between that and the Rabbit, I would have gone the same direction that you did.

This is capitalism at its best...

At around that price one can get a really nice, low-mileage, 2006 BMW 530i...

They did have a 911 in the LT fleet a couple years ago. Can't seem to find any info on it now, but I seem to remember it was a 996. So they'd probably get an older one if they continue with the cool used cars theme. (They had a used 540i as well, a couple years ago.)

But still, the 911 in that photo looks sharp. Love the wheels. 59K is not a lot of miles for a 9-10-year-old car.

"I did a quick check of the local Buy and Sell and had no trouble finding a used 2006 Smart for $25K. Seems weird to me too as you can buy them new for under $15K."

Firstwagon, are you sure? Why would the new dealers be selling their cars for less than the new ones. I'm sure there are places where a Smart sells for around list, but I'm guessing not in LA, where that photo was shot.

I meant why would dealers sell new Smarts for less than used ones.

Joe, nice choices, though the first thing they should do in that case is swap the SC's transmission for a G50. Other than that, those would be a pleasure to drive!

I agree with mbtech... a sunroof is a must for me. I like the extra light and open air and it doesn't add enough weight to matter unless you are somebody that removes his rear seat and spare tire. That and now most smaller cars have such tall roofs that you would have to be 9 ft tall to notice the 2" less head room. That and a sunroof is one of those things just nice to have on a nice day and it's there to open. To me it's worth the 700-900 option.

I did sit in an astra, very nice interior.

but while i'm a well built guy, and the astra was a thight fit.

Drive a car with and without a sunroof back to back at the limit.

It's not that much weight difference, but it's location (at the very top of the car) makes a very substantial difference in weight transfer from side to side. And at 5'10", my 06 Civic SI is fairly close to my 'noggin when seated regularly. I imagine a track-helmet would be uncomfortable in my car. So I could use those extra 1-2" in this car just to feel more airy.

But those things are just me. I rarely use my sunroof; maybe 5-10 days a year. I'd rather save the 40 pounds and have one less thing to break if I have a choice.

Joe

yeah that makes sense... it does kind of suck how most of the foreign auto makers don't allow you to get a top of the line car without the sunroof. It's just there instead of a stand alone option.

good think I don't do track days! ;-)

"thing"... geez...

Joe, I won't buy another car without a sunroof. I don't like convertibles, but I do like the wind blowing in through the top of my hair. And I like the option of raising it in the vent position to draw more air into the interior without raising the fan speed. At the limit, on a track, I'm sure a car without a sunroof is quicker, but I'm not talented enough to be able to discern a difference on the street. Besides, the last time I took my nephews and young son for a romp down River Road (when we left an Integra for dead), I noticed my nephew looking up through the roof the entire drive. I asked him what he was doing, and he said "It looks cool to see the trees go by." When it's warm, my young son looks through the roof at the stars at night. So do I -- when I'm stopped (!).

I agree with sgude and 06scooby. The lack of a sunroof was a deal-breaker for me, and I've never seen a good aftermarket job. The sun and wind on a beautiful day make it worth the money, even more so on a starry night with the radio cranked up. There is still plenty of headroom for me, and any handling or structural deficiencies aren't noticeable to me on my daily commute.

A sunroof makes it easier for the installation of an ejector seat.

ahh the sunroof wasn't a killer for me. The sunfire had it.

The 2dr 2008 rabbit its not an opition, since I was going for bang for the buck, I'd probably skip it anyways.

Have to say, the dealership experance was good/great, the deal good, not amazing, but invoice. Took about a total of 2 hours. Including the discussing price, and fiance.

It was probably nicer because i split it between 2 days. Got the price / downpayment in yesterday, waited to do the delivery/fiance today. And most of today was the salesmen going over the features of the car. Only spent 10 mintues with the finace guy, he went over the extend warrenties, I said no thanks. Signed 6 things, drove off.

in fact

heres 2 quick pics

http://www.carspace.com/opfreakx/Albums/opfreakx%27s%20Album/

Here's my VeeDub

http://www.carspace.com/mbtech208/Albums/mbtech208%27s%20Album/1006081224.jpg/page/photo.html#pic

Nice color opfreakx! I like bright red... I can't believe what a difference new wheels make on your mbtech! just tint your windows and find some cool but inexpensive wheels opfreakx and your rabit will look sweet! have fun with it!

Ok....I have a buzzed head, so I don't get the "wind in my hair feeling" and maybe that's why i don't care if a car has a sunroof :)

Since we're sharing pictures....here's the car I want:

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp;?tracktype=usedcc&searchType=21&pageNumber=0&numResultsPerPage=50&largeNumResultsPerPage=0&sortorder=descending&sortfield=PRICE+descending&certifiedOnly=false&criteria=K-%7cE-%7cM-_5_%7cD-_38_%7cN-N%7cR-30%7cI-1%2c7%7cP-PRICE+descending%7cQ-descending%7cZ-19382&aff=national&paId=273039056&recnum=0&leadExists=true

*drool*

Unfortunately, Edmunds already did a long-term test on a BMW 5-series of that generation....

Joe

P.s. For those who like modern conveniences combined with old-fashioned goodness...the e39 BMW 5-series has a full-sized spare, a tool-kit, the oil filter is easily accessed through the engine bay....and, since it has a dipstick, you could technically extract the oil through the dipstick tube, change the oil filter in the engine bay, and wear nice clothes to do it in :)

Ah, what BMW used to be....I'm just disillusioned right now because their Susan B. Komen Ultimate Driving event was crap. Every available car was an automatic convertible....so much for being a driving man's car.

That's still the best generation of 5-Series, in my opinion. I'd even be happy with the 525i in that body style, as long as it has a manual.

Crazy! Run, don't walk away from the Smart. I think Mr. T summed up my feeling on Smart buyers - pity the fool indeed.

Hmm, If I’m going to get screwed which car would I want to be in? Anyone baying more than 14k for a smart should b ban from society! You Are The Reason For Our Economy And Should Be Force To Pay All Your Creditors Back In Full!

Joe, M62 engines with a lot of miles on them can be expensive to maintain. You have been warned. I'd say look for a 2003 E39 530i w/ MT. :o)

Congrats opfreak! BTW the HHR is an American Wagon. IMO, its a dark horse. Its a really good car. The HHR(R)Ss is also great too!

So whats going on with our 911?
-Cj

opfreak,

Isn't the xB classed as a wagon too? What did you think of it?

When I was much younger (like, 10 years ago) my fantasy car was the BMW 850CSi. One time when I was hanging out at the Austin car show (Friday nights) a BMW 8-series Car Club drove up. I kid you not, there were 31 8-series. Awesome night.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_8_Series#850CSi

850CSi is another service nightmare. An 840 wouldn't be as bad.

ya, the HHR was a little werid looking for me.

the drakest horse would be a de-badge HHR-SS(t)

The xB is a wagon.

I thought it was an oddly shaped matrix. that drives nearly identical.

You do have a very different seating positon, with the XB its much higher, and you feel more like driving a van.

if your a price shopper, and are getting a stick... i'd lean towards the xb, since its priced so much less.

with an automatic, it would be harder, the matrix comes with a 5spd auto, the xb with a 4spd.

MMMMMMM,

Nissan just announced a "stripper" version of the Versa for $9995 plus destination.

Even if the base Pure was selling at MSRP, how could someone chose the Smart over it?

"Drive a car with and without a sunroof back to back at the limit.

It's not that much weight difference, but it's location (at the very top of the car) makes a very substantial difference in weight transfer from side to side."

I was talking with BMW tuner/racer T. C. Kline a while back and he said that a sunroof affected handling "just as if you strapped a battery to the roof". My salesperson had to fight with BMW Individual to keep them from cutting a hole in the roof of my Club Sport, and I am forever grateful that she prevailed. I was also glad to find that the MS3 didn't even offer a sunroof as an option. That said, I do use the sunroof in my 1975 2002, as it doesn't have A/C and the fresh air ventilation is lacking. But then the '02 will probably never see the track. Well, not more than once or twice anyway.

opfreak,

"with an automatic, it would be harder, the matrix comes with a 5spd auto, the xb with a 4spd."

I own the xB and was looking hard at the matrix....the extra room and standard larger engine in the xB won me over. As for the auto tranny, i use to worry about having a 4sp. but it really doesn't matter, since the millage is identical with the matrix (equipped with the 2.4 L 5sp auto). With 4 sp, I like that the car doesn't downshift (into 3rd) when passing on the freeway (unless it a very hard acceleration).

But you'll be happy with the Rabbit, I've always been a VW fan and at times miss my previous car (VW New Beetle). But with a 2nd child on the way, I need 4 doors.

Suby - I've done my research. I can handle it....it's not like the M5 :)

I thought about the 530 mostly and even went to check one out. I test drove the 540 to see if the difference in ride quality, suspension, damping, extra weight up front, and inferior steering rack would overwhelm the pros of the v8....they didn't :)

Besides which, as soon as I fired up the engine I was smitten. That sound is freaking intoxicating.

Joe