2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X GSR: Introduction

Relax, folks. I just sent someone an e-mail about the gearbox typo.

I'm surprised the attention-getting blow-off valve (BOV) wasn't explicitly mentioned in the laundry list of goodies.

How about an ECU reflash from Vishnus and a HKS tuner kit?

Personally I don't care about durability of hood latches or anything in that manner. The AWD system is enough for me. This is a well engineered car begging to be tuned and I hope you guys have fun doing it.
It will also be interesting to see what type of mileage it will get with more modifications. Right now, Iam guessing 15to16 mpg with hard driving.

On a latter note, I thought the EVO X was available with a 5 speed manual transmission(Mitsubishi said something about a 5 speed gearbox being the choice for rally racers). Did someone change the gearbox or what?

I loved -- and still love -- the Evo IX, but this one leaves me cold. Maybe I just need to drive it. But I keep thinking, every time I look at that mug, of the old Speed Racer cartoon and the episode, "The Mammoth Car." The Evo X's mug reminds me of that beast. Must be the slanted headlights.

I dont get it. If you want to tune a car from stock. Why "buy" a pre-tuned car?

wouldn't part of the test be comparing stock vs mods?

And while you do say Mitsu gave you the car. There are way to many referances to 'purchase' in the intro.

Finally, a 3rd Lancer clone? What about a true perfomace sport compact, that starts at under 25k:

Chevy Coblat SS. Faster then a EVO MR, IS-F, 135, s5, s2000, challenger srt8, elise sc, g37, challenger srt8.

Oh and thosands cheaper then all of those on the list.

I geuss mitsu's ad budget is bigger.

But then again, you say you want to stay 'affordable'. Hmm Chevy: fast and afforadable.

Which car can more/most people afford:
22k Cobalt, vs 32k lancer?

BTW, When did the GSR gain another gear? the website says its a 5 spd

Mitsubishi must really be buying lots of advertising for you guys to get a second Evo. There are so many other ricer/sport cars out there that you COULD test, why a second Evo?

Money talks I guess...

Another Lancer variation...really??? Might as well get a CTS-V and a G8 GXP while you're at it. Wait, those actually might be a good idea.

I don't normally like to join the haters on here, but I'm going to agree that there are many other 'stock' vehicles I would rather read about. I love the Evo, but another one just to modify seems silly when there are so many interesting vehicles that have been suggested for long terms tests.

I'd be interested in seeing how the Evo X's aluminum block engine holds up compared to the old bulletproof iron blocks found in the Evos of the past.

I met a guy who had an Evo VIII that was making 400 whp. He said that he'd only need to turn up the boost and he'd get 700 whp, something I'd totally believe given the other stuff he'd done to his car already.

Question is, how well will the aluminum block Evo hold up? It should be able to make a good amount of power, but can it do so reliably?

Enough with the boy-ricers. I feel like Edmunds credibility is going down a peg and that they're subject to becoming shills for the the cars that get "donated" to them.

If Doug is willing to be critical of this choice I better take advantage of this opportunity to chime in on a "legit" criticism of IL and support his statement. Getting 3 of the same car is one of the dumbest things IL could have done but it fit in with their biases perfectly. As she said above "can you ever really have too many EVOs"? I guess the answer is now. Meanwhile we still have no Genesis, Challenger R/T, Vette, Cobalt SS< MKS or Vue hybrid. I do hope the Camaro gets added instead of a variation of an import car they already have.

This long-term blog is turning into the editors play thing.

But still, it will be intresting to sample the higher end of mitsu's stable.

send it back.

I thought modding is illegal in CA. I want to modd my rsx a little but i told anything done to the engine/exhaust is basically illegal. Sometimes if you get caught you can fix it and get it signed off at a CHP station but sometimes you can't. Is that true?

Edmunds needs a Tuner/Track/Racing blog, STAT.

Wow!! This is really going to cost you guys some serious credibility!! 3 Lancers?? That, to me, does not make any sense!

The TDI Jettas were at least different generations, clean vs. dirty, used versus new....somewhat justifiable. Buy to pick a 3rd Lancer from the same generation out of the ever expanding field of cars that are out there pushes it beyond reasonable...on top of that, it's a freebee from Mitsubishi?? Now that does not make me feel any better, either.

What about testing a more relevant vehicle like the new Corolla/Matrix/Vibe?? I mean, wanting to have fun with high performance cars is one thing but what about your journalistic mission? I thought there was one. Your LT fleet is starting to look out of touch and out of line with what is relevant to average people seeking information on how it is to live with "real" cars, not exotics. GT-R, R8, 135i, M3, X5, G8 GT, WRX STI, 2-out-of-3 Lancers, even a V6 Accord to me amount to an overrepresentation of the high-end of the market in your fleet and hint at the vanity of the people who make the decision on what to put into the fleet next.

I agree with the premise of having a base model car vs. a tuned car for a true comparison of what the differences are....that's a solid premise in any research project. Control vs. Test.

But I'm also left a little cold with the start here....it's got a wholly different transmission, came pre-modified, and does anyone know how it was driven the first 10,000 miles? What was the purchase price? (I might have missed that somewhere)

I'm personally a little against the evo, but I've never driven one and that tends to decide everything. I would've rather seen a Mazdaspeed 3 (the giant killer of the subcompact world), Cobalt SS turbocharged, 2009 Subaru WRX, or heck even an 06 Civic SI taken "all motor"....which has lost it's luster in recent years but is still a great way to get a car down into the low 13's in the quarter mile while staying extremely reliable.

Joe

I agree with the rest of the posts. Why would you guys get a second Evo? If you really wanted a base car to tune, there were many others you could have selected. Still, why not get something else like a high-end luxury sedan or a muscle car? I'm with 1487 and opfreakx, I really hope the Camaro and\or Cobalt SS gets a spot here soon.

Opfreak - The turbocharged cobalt SS is the new SRT-4. Cheap inside, questionable exterior looks, and damn fast and built engine/drivetrain. But even better, the Cobalt actually has handling and braking capabilities stock.

It doesn't get much more boy racer looking than that car, but that just means there are going to be alot of 16-22 year olds lusting for them...not necessarily a bad thing.

Joe

So by now we've seen the Lancer GTS, Evo MR, and now the Evo GSR... But what about the Lancer DE and ES - I trust they'll be added to the long-term fleet in short order, at this rate!

Wow!
It should be exciting to read about yet another another Lancer, another frilly, limited-production car, that most car buyers would never consider.
I'm glad you guys are having fun, but you should make up for this and buy a Hyundai Genesis. A car so, for lack of a better word, controvoersial, a car that you ranked ABOVE the established (much more expensive)players, deserves to be evaluated over the long-term, to see if the hype is really true.

"Meanwhile we still have no Genesis, Challenger R/T, Vette, Cobalt SS< MKS or Vue hybrid."

Keep your pants on, some things take more time than others.

"But what about the Lancer DE and ES - I trust they'll be added to the long-term fleet in short order, at this rate!"

We're working on that too. We must have all Lancers. We're also thinking about buying a used Mitsubishi Mirage and converting it to run on air power. Furthermore, we just hired a former Medieval Times knight as our new assistant copy editor.

I'm okay with a little bit of rice in the world (especially when it comes in the form of the EVO), but I think maybe this is a little ridiculous. Why not buy another G8 and mod THAT. Now THERE'S a car that would be fun to play around with. You guys could make a 12 second, 4 door, Pontiac. C'mon... it'll be fun!

Modding an N/A car, even the Pontiac G8, is not nearly as easy and fruitful as modding a car such as the EVO....which can easily add gobs of power, is built for lots more power, and has a traction system capable of delivering such power.

And, on a side note, sadly, this blog post combined with seeing an advertisement for 0% financing on EVO GSR's led me to check it out online.

Regardless of 0% for 5 years, I don't think I can do it.

Joe

My mistake. I assumed it would be relatively easy (not cheap, easy) to add a blower and bolt ons a la ZR-1. I figured with the LS3 it would be a little easier since IIRC the intake manifold is designed to be able to support 500+ RWHP.

But regardless, you see my point. Sure you can add gobs of power to the EVO, but you're still left with an boy racer looking car. There are other cars out there that would be fun to mod AND that we haven't seen any long term tests on.

FtB

joefrompa - as i'm car shopping, i had to step away from just about anything boy racer, if I was 8 years younger, i'd go for them. But i dont want to worry about an 18yr d-bag pulling up next to me when i'm in a say Si becuase I wanted a bit more power.

As for the cobalt SS-Turbo, I dont disagree with much of your assement. Expect, from sitting in tens of cars. the interior quality, on all cars in the 20 grand range, is pretty much par. Yes if you start to nit-pick you see cheap. But then again, IMHO the fit had some of the cheapest looking plastics on the market today, and for some reason no reviewer brings it up.

My issue is with getting another lancer. Esspically another 32K + Lancer.

I'm sorry, the boy racer market is not 30K plus. Outside of evo fans, this car has limited appeal, most people that could afford a 30k+ car, are more likely to step up to something with class, ie, bmw 1 series.

When I saw the numbers that C & D came up with on a track with the Cobalt SS-T, it blew my mind. Older chassis, fwd, 5spd, Torsion beam suspension.

and it beat all the wizardy of the AWD evo's. phhf. Edmunds is getting paid of for this one.

Things smell here, and it anit roses

I agree with opfreakx. This is turning into a highly biased tuner site and not a long term road test of most of the likely vehicles the public will buy in the next 12 months. Sure, we are all "car guys and gals" and like the quicker cars, but then why not add a Cobalt SS that did so well in recent car comparos?How many of us are going to go for an Audi R8 or Nissan GT-R. I'm glad they are part of the fleet, but it's getting to be a bit much!

I still have my doubts about the Cobalt SS track times. I'd like to see it reproduced. And don't take that as knocking the Cobalt SS...it's just that a FWD car with a....questionable suspension setup...and some modest summer tires shouldn't be able to do what those times suggest vs. some of those competitors. Maybe it did do it. I'd be impressed it was middle of the pack. But I'd like to see it repeated.

Fadetoblack - Properly adding a forced induction to a vehicle is not "slap a blower on it and be happy".....Let me put it this way: I'm pursuing modifying my 2008 Subaru Legacy GT. I can buy an $80 tactrix cable, hook my laptop up to the car with it, gut a catalytic converter with a crowbar, and make my car faster than a current or previous generation STI/Evo. And it'll be incredible reliable with no other modifications. Not all turbocharged/supercharged cars are like that, but many are. It would cost me $115 with the cable and new exhaust gaskets, and I'd still have 1 stock catalytic converter and would pass emissions.

Slapping a turbo/supercharger on an otherwise N/A car involves perhaps $4-5k upfront...and to be done right, it often involves swapping in lower compression pistons, fuel system upgrades, multiple custom tunes (to make it safe), etc.

Oh yeah, and now you can't put the power down. Time for a wheel/tire upgrade. Maybe the stock trans needs an oil cooler now.

I don' tknow enough about the G8 GT to say one way or another...I'm just mentioning that many stock turbocharged cars are capable of adding significant power for very little money without really sacrificing reliability.

Joe

opfreakx-

This is exactly my point. Maybe for the 18-20 crowd, a car magazine tuning an EVO for kicks and giggles is a dream come true. But for those that have moved past the "I-need-a-spoiler-and-a-fart-can-and-NOW" phase of life, tuning something that has a larger market would probably be preferable.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with tuning an EVO and testing the durability of aluminum vs. iron, etc. But I just wish they had chosen a car that we haven't already analyzed from every angle in two different trim levels.

Oh yeah, Opfreak - I agree with you...but I've got to say, the tuner crowd tends to be rich kids. Look how many drop $2-4k on a set of wheels for a $20-30k car.

A 2008/2009 Civic SI costs $22k, MS3 = $23k, WRX = $25-26k, STI/EVO = $32k.

Somehow, this market has been turned to the 25-30k range as they found young kid would pay up. I bought my 06 Civic SI for a shade under $20k when it first came out...and I still feel it was a good deal for what I've gotten out of it. I'm ready to be grown up, but I'm also still a kid inside and like the rawness that comes along with these cars.

Joe

Fadetoblack - It is worth something though to be able to compare a stock vs. modified vehicle. For that, I give edmunds some credit.

I do think you need to look at the age demographic of the primary buyer of the EVO and STI.....18-20 is more restrictive than it truly is....it spreads into the low 30s age.

Joe

This move is so lame, even more lame than the GT-R and R8...

Call us haters but at least this time the haters unite.

joefrompa-

I agree with you. I wasn't suggesting that it was just a simple, run to advanced auto and presto changeo here's your car-o type deal. I'm aware that there's alot more than just installation involved in a blower setup. I mentioned the G8 because I know it already possesses one of the most bullet proof engines on the planet.

You're right in that a car that is already turbo'd/supercharged is easier to mod for more power. I don't have a die-hard allegiance to the G8, I was just saying that we've seen the EVO already. I was just throwing out the idea of a car that would be fun to see go faster. The G8 seems popular around here both with the editors and with the readers, so it just seemed like an easy choice.

I actually have a question though. Will increasing the boost on your Subie cause any risk to the cylinder walls? I seem to remember that it was something alot of people have been concerned about in the past with small engine TC or SC cars and I wasn't sure if it still was a problem.

~FtB

By the way, what's the point of modding the Evo and make it faster and meaner? A person with more money can easily out-do you anyways. Completely pointless...

Fine, if you really want to mod a car, wouldn't modding a Lancer Ralliart be a better choice? You guys can make it an experiment to see how much (both money and effort) is needed in order to make a Ralliart better than an Evo performance-wise and whether or not it is worth it. Wouldn't that be a better and more meaningful experiment?

You guys need some serious help in your department, seriously...

FTB - The stock engine internals can be taken to 350-400 awhp (so probably near 500 crank HP). This is the same engine as the STI, with a different intercooler and turbo. The stock turbo can get up around 250-270 awhp...same with the stock intercooler. For the money, the 250awhp mark is the easiest to get to....gut the exhaust and get it tuned and you'll be near that mark without any other system upgrades. Once you hit the 300 awhp mark, it starts to need fuel upgrades, definitely a new intercooler (and maybe time for a front-mount version), and a few other items. The stock clutch on either the Legacy GT or legacy Spec.B. seems to be reliable at 250awhp if you aren't regularly abusing it...lots of guys with 40-60k on clutches at thatpoint. Once you get around 300awhp/300awtq, again, the clutch needs an upgrade.

I hope that helps clarify what this car, at least, will do. The stock Legacy GT makes about 200 awhp. I can't wait to upgrade mine honestly, as the power delivery from 2000 (off-boost) to 3000 rpms (near full boost) is not smooth. I'll gain massive amounts of low-and-mid range everyday driving power, and that to me is what it's all about. It's not about me drag racing people at stoplights....it's about having instantaneous power with smooth delivery at almost any RPM.

Joe

How about adding a Cobalt SS and spending a year figuring out how a FWD car with a torsion beam semi independant rear suspension outperforms it's more complicated AWD Evo competitors?

Joe, I was surprised by the C&D test as well. I wish someone else would do a similar test. But if they are correct. (which if they were using 3 different drivers, and took the best time) then taking the result at face value.

AWD seems to suffer from too much drivetrain loss, not to mention, that once going, on a dry track, the awd system is more a weight plenty then a benefit.

seems to me that the cobalt being ligther then the cars it beat, helped it more, then not having as much power. They also did use 'stock' tires, so maybe some of the models came with all seasons vs performance

I don't think you haters understand... this modded EVO should make over 350hp at the wheels. This equates to supercar performance for about $35k. All you're missing is the looks... but for the price, I'm sure you can live without it. Seeing how reliable this proposition is should be quite informative for those not in the know.

For the record, it is NOT illegal to mod a car. If you live in CA, it is stricter, but by no means illegal. "CARB Approved" mods are legal. Any cat-back exhaust 95 decibles or less is legal. Note that many companies submit their products for CARB Approval eventhough they have no chance of passing, just to be able to market the product as "CARB Pending". Check on the ARB website for confirmation.

Yes, the Genesis would be a GREAT addition to the fleet. C'mon, you guys did a long term test of the Azera when it was a controversial car. Do the right thing and bring something in that isn't just another iteration of what you already have!

Genesis would be great.

Opfreak - As an owner of a fantastic handling FWD car (Civic SI) and an AWD car (Legacy GT), I agree. AWD is a penalty on a dry track. AWD-lovers will say "well then add some wet or dirt or snow"...which is just a cop out.

I'd definitely like to see more of the new & improved Cobalt. That engine is sweet. I wonder if it'll find it's way into the Ariel Atom...

Huyracing - 350 awhp does not a supercar make :)

But it does make the car move move move...

Joe

Huyracing: The new Camaro will make 300HP with the V6 and more than 400HP with the V8 and for less than $35K, so HP isn't everything. The Mitsu is still a 15K econocar with a lot of tweaking and massaging. So why tweak it some more??????

Another evo? Really?

I'll be excited to see the 33k + 7k of mods smoke a 100k+ 911 turbo, dont get me wrong.

I think the long term blog is getting a little biased on performance cars. I don't remember who said it (too lazy to scan through the posts again) but I think you guys should start a new blog.

Keep long term, keep straight line, and start a performance blog or something. Its going to be weird reading about the DGC's power failgate, and then reading about some "killer dubs you put on your whip".

Karjunkie-

Thank you. That's what I've been trying to say this whole time.

Sure the EVO is great, but it's already a tuned version of something else. What I was trying to suggest (with my G8 GT comment) was taking a production car and seeing what happened when you tune it.

The EVO/Lancer comparo is the equivalent of comparing an M5 to a 528i. Not quite the same. The G8 to a G8 GT is maybe a 535i to a 528i. Just in case anyone tried to say that the G8 GT is a "tuned" version of the G8 lol.

Joefrompa-

Thanks for clearing that up.

C'mon guys, is this really necessary? Why not just get an Evo in every color? How boring. First two diesel Jettas, now two Evos? How about expanding your horizons and testing something fresh, like the new Nissan Maxima, Audi A4, Lincoln MKS, or Mazda6?

joe,

Why in the world would you doubt the SS's track times? You say the car has a "questonable" suspension set up but we all know there are cars with beam axles from the past that have been able to handle respectably. The first gen SS supercharged was one such car. In case you missed it R&T ranked the Cobalt #1 in a recent comparison and their car posted impressive numbers. GM isnt testing cars on the Ring for kicks, they are doing to to produce cars that can kick butt on a track. I don't think the Civic was developed over there and it shows when the two cars are put on a track. As for the styling, I think it looks better than the WRX and no worse than the Si. The exterior mods on the SS are pretty modest.

I find it interesting that interior quality is so important on the Cobalt SS but was never a make or break issue on the last generation Sti and Evo. Both of those cars had dull plastic interiors but no one cared because of the performance.

mbtech208, how dare you trying to make the editors driving boring/normal/mainstream cars like the Maxima, A4, MKS and Mazda6...

mbtech:

I think the new A4 would be a great choice as well. One of the GM or Chrysler two mode hybrids would be interesting as well. They might as well get an F150 too. They probably are planning on adding a Ralliart and 2009 WRX though. cant have enough turbo compacts from Japan.

if they get a 6 PLEASE make it a 4 cylinder since that's what 80% of 6 buyers are going to get. Sure its slower but that is what people are going to buy. And don't give us the "we need the most expensive model to test every feature" line because you can get a loaded GrandTouring with the 2.5L engine.

If they are going to get an MKS than I can see waiting for the 2010 model with 340hp. I think everyone wants to see the Genesis and Camaro here.

You should have tuned the MR you already have. Drive it 6 months stock, then go to town on it. Sure it has the wrong transmission, but it was dumb to get the MR over the GSR for this blog in the first place.

Hmm...A4 sounds good too. I like 1487's idea of a two-mode hybrid.

I might be wrong, but I got the distinct impression that Edmunds did not buy this car. It sounds like Mitsubishi loaned them this car - and gave them permission to mad it. I admire those of you who would refuse a free Evo from Mitsubishi with the mandate to do what you want with it... That's more self control than I have :)

And I'm pretty sure the 6-spd stated was a typo - the pictures of the car show a 5-spd.

Typo fixed.

1487 - To your last point first, I actually got rid of my brand new, $18,500 U.S. dollars 2005 aab 9-2x Aero (WRX Wagon) 5-speed because it was so loud, uncomfortable, and cheap inside and due it's shifting. It had glorious steering, decent brakes, and a powertrain that begged to be thrashed and tuned. But it couldn't overcome it's shortcomings. So for me, a cheap interior is a factor that can kill a car for me.

I already posted why I doubted the Cobalt SS track times....but I think we're talking about different track times.

In the Road & Track test, it was compared against a 2009 WRX, 2009 Lancer Ralliart, and MazdaSpeed 3. I read that one and wasn't surprised it won....seems like it deserved it. Probably the best power to weight ratio in the group, lowest overall weight, fat powerband, big sticky tires and upgraded brakes over last year, and an upgraded chassis over last year.

In the Car and Driver Lightning Lap though, I have serious doubts about their times. I actually looked at this really closely over the past 10 minutes because stuff was seriously wrong all over the place. A BMW M6 was .5 seconds slower than a Cayman S? The M6 is a boat!

The S2000 CR (a pretty much factory-dedicated track car) was only 1 second faster than a MazdaSpeed 3?

So anyway...after looking at the track and comparing the list of times, I think it's just a horsepower track. Look at who beats who....to use the MazdaSpeed 3 example again, there's no way a front-heavy FWD 3200 pound car should be able to get a better time than a much lighter weight, RWD, balanced 2-seater putting out 240 HP....except that I bet the MS3 is powering it's way around that track and achieving higher speeds faster. The M6 is a pig, it shouldn't be close to the Cayman S....except I'm sure the 200 HP difference helps it make up in those long-ass straights.

Anyway...some cars are better in certain circumstances than others. Not denying that. And the Cobalt deserves what it got in the R&T testing....but the C&D Lightning Lap is kinda funky.

Joe

Hi Joe,

about the S2000 CR, I understand the brake pads prevented them from pushing the car's limits. As a S2000 owner and a fellow SI owner, I can attest to the ease of driving but have not track driven either, so don't no of the brake fade...

i know of one making 361whp/381wtq and it runs 12.5's. that plus the great stock handling really puts it in Audi R8 territory...

I am referencing power measured TO THE WHEELS. This is not the same as manufacturer claimed hp figures. All wheel drive vehicles also have more drivetrain losses than 2 wheel drive vehicles. General drivetrain loss percentage for AWD is 20% vs. 15% for 2WD. So, 361awhp is 433hp to the layman. Not too bad compared to your 400hp camaro, huh? Or even your 420hp Audi R8.

That said, I don't rely on dyno's for bragging rights, I use them for tuning purposes. There are many different dyno's and they are in different states of calibration. Atmospheric conditions also greatly affect your readings, so even if you use the exact same dyno on the same day, the numbers wont always be the same. So, in the end using these numbers as bragging right is worthless. As they say, the proof is in the pudding...

"So for me, a cheap interior is a factor that can kill a car for me."

The Cobalt is a cheap car. Considering it came out 4 years ago it's interior is acceptable for its price range. I don't think many sub $20k compacts have luxurious interiors. The Corolla and civic certainly don't.

VIR may be a "hp track" but I think we can agree the Ring is a course that challenges suspension and brakes as much as hp. That said, the Cobalt put up a great time at the Ring and trailed the 400hp+ Camaro by only 2 seconds. It's time was comparable to the old M3 if I'm not mistaken. At a certain point we have to just accept the car's performance instead of suggesting the tracks it's tested on are somehow favorable to the car.If the Ring is seen as a barometer for high powered German RWD cars I think it's a good measuring stick for the Cobalt, beam axle suspension and all.

The old Cobalt SS humbled some more expensive cars in it's debut at Lightning Lap a few years back so the turbo SS' performance shouldn't be a shock at all.

Boy racers wear cheap suits, with the exception of the Mazdaspeed3. Let's all move on to performance. The Cobalt SS kicks butt and deserves a spot in the stable. Period. Punto. Final!

I have yet to be in a new Corolla, but I think my 06 Civic SI interior is a step above most. But hey, that's one of the reasons I own it. I love it's functionality, seats, steering wheel, shifter, cupholders, auto up/down driver's side window, etc.

I don't like the 25k WRX interior, I think the 22-23k MazdaSpeed 3 interior is so-so (I can't wait for the new one), etc.

I was just saying that, for me, that can kill a car.

Anyway, on the Nurburgring comment. Here's one source/listing:

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6452778/the-general-forum/new-cobalt-ss-turbo-bows-8-22-min-on-nrburgring-ef/index.html

For the same reason I'll wait for the GT-R to be independently verified, I'll wait on this one as well. According to GM, it matched the previous generation M3 and M Coupe, beat a Porsche Cayman S, BMW 335i, etc.

As these are cars that have a much lower (in some cases) COG, weight distribution, greater overall power, and for the most part come with stickier tires factory (I'm basing this on the older SS getting Pirelli Summer tires, which are a longer-wearing less sticky summer tire than what comes on some of the competitors named).

Again, this is not to detract from the Cobalt. I don't trust factory time claims when they seem SO far outside of the norm for year-over-year improvement.

Actually, all this talk made me research the Cobalt more heavily. I can't stand the current body style and interior (I had a 2003 Saturn Ion...and the Cobalt has damn near the same interior)...so I'm looking forward to checking out the new body style when it comes out in SS form. Hopefully with a wingless option :)

Joe

huyracing-

how much did they pay to have that car running 12.5's?

Thats what I thought...

Or I could buy a new $30,000 400hp Camaro that'll run low 13's (guessing) stock and put the difference into mods and have an even faster, better built, more reliable car. Just a thought.

~FtB

FTB - The LGT/WRX (which both go for around 25k right now) can run 12.5's for about $2k.

I won't say it'll do that for 50k miles with nothing but tires and oil changes.

There are some cars, in the 20-30k area, that can break into the high 12's with pretty moderate tuning. And still be driven daily without really any adverse affects.

Breaking into the 11's is a whole 'nuther world :)

Joe

this is probably the stupidest move you guys have done. you got the same car with a little tweaking and a different transmission.

at least the Jettas are seperated by a redesign. these two lancers are virtually identical. it would be like having a 135i with an automatic transmission.

Oh Great. Not another Boy-toy Matchbox! Why don't you guys go out and get like a 2009 A4 or something?

ftb:

intake, exhaust, ecu flash. not exactly big money there. probably what this car has...

I'm sorry, that should be can run 12s and now 12.5 for 2k. That might be possible, but I can definitely confirm these cars can run 12.8s with just a tune (which can be personally done with an $80 cable and a laptop) and a few exhaust modifications. The rest of the budget I'll say would go into supporting upgrades...but easily can be done for $2k or less.

Joe

Since this seems to be a common theme, why not get a Chrysler Town & Country to go with your beloved Dodge Grand Caravan? Perhaps a Ford Focus sedan as a companion to your nice blue coupe?

In the intro it states, "Instead we're going to use this long-term test to focus on the enthusiast rather than the average consumer. "

i dont think this car is so much for enthuesiasts. I think it is more of a prettyboy car thats easy to drive fast thanks to an elaborate awd system

for me, a real enthuesiasts car should be a simple rwd car with 3-pedals.

i do think this is better than the evo mr, but i think if you guys wanted an enthuesiast perfomance car to tune, something less expensive and rwd should be next(camaro please?)

Enthusiasts can be enthused by whatever they find enthusing. It doesn't even have be RWD! It's a good thing people don't care about your definition of whats cool.

How about instead of another Lancer, you buy some type of luxury car? Like LS460L/ 09 750Li, or the S550? Anyone agree?

"How about instead of another Lancer, you buy some type of luxury car? Like LS460L/ 09 750Li, or the S550? Anyone agree?"

I'd like to see an AMG or a new ///M in the stable.

I'm gonna have to give the thumbs down to this Evo GSR also, why not mod the MR already in the fleet? Although on the bright side, since it was provided by Mitsu, it shouldn't affect IL's LT car piggybank. :-)

I can usually see the reasoning behind the LT cars, but I'm not so sure about this. The mods are already done and are fairly minor, so unless there are more plans for this Evo, I'm having a hard time seeing the point. I think this would have made a better "Follow-up Test" subject.

I also agree that a Mazda 6 or 2009 A4 would have been a better choice.

Or you should post on the cars that are constantly ignored. Poor C class :(

joefrompa wrote-
"I still have my doubts about the Cobalt SS track times. I'd like to see it reproduced. And don't take that as knocking the Cobalt SS...it's just that a FWD car with a....questionable suspension setup...and some modest summer tires shouldn't be able to do what those times suggest vs. some of those competitors. Maybe it did do it. I'd be impressed it was middle of the pack. But I'd like to see it repeated."
Thats because the Cobalt SS has no shift lift gearbox that doesn't require you to remove your leg of the accelerator while changing gears. This means the turbos are always spooled up with high revs, revs that you would lose if you had a conventional gearbox which required you to remove your leg from the accelerator while shifting. It also has a launch control system(I read the press conference review, can't guarantee it).

To the guys going on about modifying Camaros and such. Lets see how those cars handle on a racetrack.

I have not seen this much united hate since the announcement of big brakes on the M3.

All the haters above have the option of slobbering over the Ford Flex and Mazda CX9 posts.

I for one think this is a great read. Aftermarket tuning has notoriously wrecked an cars reliability and resaleability. It'll be interesting to see if an inherently tune-friendly car like the Evo is able to maintain it's durability while surpassing supercar numbers on the track.

Kudos to Inside Line. There is life here.

I'd add that I would love to see you guys try to get warranty work at the Mitsu dealer and see what they say. Mitsubishi has been notorious for denying claims on even mildly modded cars. Mitsu gave you this car...lets see if they respect it.

Ace - I'm curious about the no-lift shift feature. I think it does wonders for the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but I can't see it helping that much on the track vs. the naturally aspirated cars...or even the 135i/335i, as those both had pretty absent lag at mid-range or higher rpms (they have very slight lag at very low rpms).

Also, part of my understanding with turbo engines is that spool is affected by engine load and not just throttle position. I could be wrong on that. So I wonder how that works. And I wonder how GM is maintaining trans/clutch reliability with these no-lift shifts. I can see them artificially preventing revving to redline, but I don't see how you can reduce clutch slipagge/drivetrain lash when the gear is engaged at full throttle.

Anyway...I digress. I went home last night and I really have to say I'm now excited for the new Cobalt design. I can't love the current design at all, but they obviously have their engine/chassis/transmission tuning down....

Joe

Obviously if a manufacturer "gives" you a car, you are going to take it and spin some type of excuse for having it. However, we know that you guys do buy cars for your long term test as well. Next time, just run a few polls on the site and let the readers choose what you will buy! That would be cool. Disappointing, but obviously I am still going to read about the Evo mods.

joefrompa - From reading edmunds piece on the Cobalt SS. The engine retards the power the engine produces. (changes timing, spark, fuel), while maitaining engine RPM.

And while engine load has an impact on turbo output, its more important to have the turbo spinning faster. The more I think about it, the more that little difference could make a big difference. Put it this way, even if peak power is lower then alot of cars. If the total power output is greater, then peak doesn't matter as much.

BMW does something similar by having 2 turbos, GMs solution seems rather inovative, I wonder if some other company did something similar.

They also put in an oversized clutch so that it could take the abuse... How well the clutch will last, I think as long as you arent drag racing every stop light, it will be fine. GM even tested ~600 launch control starts and found no problems.

What about a STI you could tune or reviewing a tuned STi by Cobb and telling us about the differences you find.

Hey Opfreak,

I think you were talking about something different. BMW uses 2 small turbos to help reduce lag/spool-up time....not anything to do with no-lift shifts, per se.

I was saying that whenever you apply lots of throttle while letting the clutch out, you get some clutch slip. If you let the clutch grab very quickly while letting the applying full throttle, you'll get less slip but alot more drivetrain shock.

I can understand the Cobalt ECU holding the throttle steady during a no-lift shift. That's a smart idea...prevents the engine from hitting the fuel cutoff and allows for full throttle as soon as the gear engages. Definitely a good idea for reducing delays during shifting, especially in a turbocharged car.

What I have not yet figured out is how they prevent much accelerated drivetrain damage. If you shift from 1st gear to 2nd gear at 6000 rpms, your rpms will fall to, say, 4000-4500. If the engine is holding RPMs at 6000 with at-or-near full throttle, you'd get a solid slip and/or drivetrain lash.

I wonder how they upgraded the clutch. The only way I know of to help maintain it's lifespan under such driving is to give it more surface area/friction material. Simply giving it more torque capacity, as many aftermarket clutches do, does not prevent the clutch from being fried from slipping.

I'm intrigued :)

Joe

P.s. I remember when the MazdaSpeed 3 came out and Mazda told testers to no-lift shift it because the car could handle it. I think C&D told the readers that, then said that's not their testing procedure as it's the equivalent to "dropping a steinway on the drivetrain".

If GM has managed a way to allow it while keeping the turbo spooled and not abusing the drivetrain, God bless 'em. I'll have to try it out, but I'd hate to do that to a brand new car that someone else would be buying.

2 Jetta diesels, and now 2 Evos? Not much for variety are we? These blogs are going to get boring quick.

Joe you need to pay attention to power to weight ratios if you want to understand the Cobalt's peformance. You keep saying its doubtful that the Cobalt could beat more powerful cars around the Ring but dont mention curb weight. The Cobalt weighs about 600lbs less than the 335i and thus has a power to weight ratio that is very similar. In fact, I believe the Cobalt has a superior power to weight ration. In additon you have to realize that some cars are sporty on real roads but are humbled on the track. The G37 was one of those cars based on C&D's results. The 335 is likely in the same category. Its a great sports sedan but that doenst mean it was actually optimized for track running. RWD cars like the 335 do have better weight distribution but in terms of braking, lateral grip and neutrality in corners the Cobalt is likely as good. Skidpad and braking numbers for the SS are right there with the last gen M3 and 335i. R&T featured the SS in an article about the best peformance cars for your dollar and it posted the 2nd fastest slalom speed (about 70mph) in the test and outhustled the S2000, 135i and C6 Vette.

joe,

Cobalt SS is using Continental SportContact 2, 225/40R18 Y rated. I'm pretty sure BMW uses similar tires on some models.

Joe
From Edmunds:
"
To ensure the clutch has a shot at surviving the five-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty period, the GMPD engineers tell us that they installed the largest, most robust clutch that would possibly fit and even downsized the flywheel to accommodate it."

so it seems that they went with more clutch, rather then just more pressure.

----------

From R&T (edited the mod comments, for length)

"Well the realitiy is that it's still a tad abusive to the transmission and clutch ...

When the Cobalt SS is near redline and the throttle is planted or close to it the ECU gets ready for a no-lift shift. When it detects a clutch press the ECU adjusts the cam overlap/phase, spark and everything else it can, to NOT dump the boost from the turbocharger...

I think it saves about 0.1 seconds a shift."

http://forums.roadandtrack.com/cars/board/message?board.id=68&message.id=940

If the .1 seconds a shift is true. Thats 1 second every 10 shifts. No idea how often they shifed on the C&D track. From the C&D track picture, there could be as few as ~14 turns that would require a shift. If any of the straightaways added, a shift or 2. You could easly shift 20 times on the track.

at 20 shifts, *.1 seconds. = 2 seconds. Without no lift, the Cobalt SS would fall behind a great number of cars.

Seems as the no-lift / sticky tires, could easly make or brake this car.

Sticky tires make or break every car. I love the comparisons of a stock car w/ say, r-compounds, vs. the same car with a coilover suspension and lots of other modifications, but running some all-season/regular summer tires.

1487 - The fact that the Cobalt is light is definitely a boon vs. the 335i. They have damn near identical power to weight ratios.

But bear in mind that the 335 was only one example I put on that list and to your point is more of a GT car.

Let's check out the Cayman S and M Coupe though. Both have better power to weight ratios. The Cayman S is a mid-engined 2-seater running stock Michelin PS2s (which are a higher performance summer compound tire than the Conti's, though they are in the same category, IIRC).

It is most definitely a track-tuned car. It has a much better weight distribution, COG, and hell it even has a damn-near solid aluminum suspension which reacts much faster to road undulations (I don't know how undulated the 'ring is, but from what I hear it's not race-track smooth).

The M-Coupe is a few years old now, so though it also has significantly more power, better weight distribution, lower COG, and almost the same weight....it's a few years older.

If you look at that list, find other stock FWD cars anywhere near the Cobalt SS. You have to go pretty far before they start popping up. Because FWD cars have a harder time applying that much power and getting the car to carry as much speed through a turn due to the weight swinging out over the tires that are putting the power down. MINIs do great in autocross, but there's a big difference between the highly technical short courses and the 'ring.

Again, all I'm asking for is independent verification. If it's 20 seconds slower, it'll still be a damn fine time.

Same thing for the GT-R. Indy verification goes a long way.

Joe

the problem is manufacturer claimed power figures are inaccurate. (usually intentional) to take anything away from the cobalt because the competitors aren't up to par is ridiculous. the cobalt ss is for real. go drive it and you'll understand.

"Let's check out the Cayman S and M Coupe though. Both have better power to weight ratios. The Cayman S is a mid-engined 2-seater running stock Michelin PS2s (which are a higher performance summer compound tire than the Conti's, though they are in the same category, IIRC). "

C&D noted the M coupe was a dud at the track in last years Lightning Lap. I dont think every BMW is really tuned for the track. The M3 and M5 appear to be the exception. There are limitations to a FWD chassis but it appears that lighter FWD cars are best equipped to push the limits of FWD performance. The Neon SRT-4 performed well in Lightning Lap and beat numerous RWD cars. Any car that can blast through slalom cones at 70mph is likely a very nimble car. There is no way GM's posted time is going to be 20 seconds to optimistic. If you don't believe the Cobalt's time you might as well dismiss the (videotaped) times of the Zr1 and CTS-V. One reason there arent any FWD cars close to the Cobalt is that there arent many FWD compacts that have this level of hp. As far as I know the MS3 and Caliber SRT are the only small FWD vehicles that exceed the power of the SS and niether of those cars is really tuned for the track.

^1487 to be fair. the SRT4 isn't tuned for anything.

lol to opfreak - that was nice :)

1487 - Sorry, I meant that to be an 8 second difference. I started to type out 2 different sentences and then edited it incorrectly. If the Cobalt was running an 8:30, it'd be more "in-line" with a natural progression over previous FWD cars.

As for the MS3 not being tuned for the track, that's just an ignorant statement.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/16/mazdaspeed3-aims-to-beat-track-record-at-the-ring/

Here's a quote for the MS3 on the track: "Mark Ticehurst, a 'Ring virgin, was able to come within about four seconds of the lap record, posting a time of 8 minutes 39.66 seconds around the circuit. More shocking than the fact that Ticehurst came that close to the record without any previous experience in either the car or the track, is the considerable amount of traffic he encountered along the way."

I don't doubt the ZR1 or CTS-V numbers because I believe it's inline with their claimed power outputs, designs, and natural progression over previous iterations.

GM has always been one to follow SAE ratings with their claimed power output. When the revised SAE standards came out a few years ago, most GM products were spot on already. If the Cobalt SS is significantly underrated (i.e. 280-300 crank HP), then it'd be a new thing for GM to do (not that I have a problem with that).

To your point huyracing.

Joe

P.s. Maybe the Cobalt and MS3 are well matched up and the 8:22 time is reflective of someone who knows the 'ring, doesn't encounter traffic, and does it right. To Opfreak's point earlier, I bet that no-lift shift programming cuts several seconds off a normal track time. Don't know. Definitely interested in seeing more runs done independently.

Inside Line is supposed to be the enthusiast side of Edmunds. If you're looking for boring cars, go over to the CR website. I for one am excited to see what they can do with a modded Evo X and I'm mid-30s and driving a BMW (modded for racing).

I do think a 2009 A4 long-termer would be good though. I've heard so many horror stories about Audi's electronics that I'm curious what they would run into. I've driven it and it's definitely better than the older A4.

joe- I think that while the clutch has a large part with the no shift transmission, the gears probably have a more refined design because it doesn't matter how good the clutch is, double or triple plated, shifhting without lifting would ruin the gears, not to mention break the drivers spine with a gear change at higher speeds. Shifting without lifting is normally just as harmful as shifting without dropping the clutch.
Maybe the gears have a totally different design( I can't imagine what type) but its the only explanation I can think off.

Whatever the reason, Iam impressed with the new system. I'd go for the Lancer though......

amazing, a 3rd lancer brought to inside line, and all the talk is about cars OTHER then the lancer.

hmmm. Maybe that means something.

opfreakx,

you're right. this blog has almost as many random comments as the Aura posts. :P

redwoodie,

Its a little late to be claiming IL is for enthusiasts when they have a minivan, Enclave, SmartCar and Accord in the long term fleet. This LT fleet isnt just about performance cars and you definitely dont need TWO of the same damn performance model. Why not get a Z06 and ZR1 next?

One EVO is enough. Actually, one Lancer is enough. Having 3 Lancers is overkill. Few people that post here or read this site are interesting in modifying a $32k turbo compact. In fact, I doubt many (or any) of the IL staffers would be wasting their money on expensive performance mods with their real life vehicles. This is not mainstream stuff.

joe,

The MS3 can put up numbers on a track but most of what I've read suggests the car lacks refinement as a precision driving instrument. Sloppy shifter and manic torque steer. R&T made it clear the Cobalt SS is more of a pure performance car that actually feels good to drive fast. That was my point.

1487 - A comment to the first part of your post (and aiming for 100 comments here people!)...

I just installed some beefed up anti-sway bars to my 2008 Legacy GT yesterday. A pretty modest upgrade which absolutely transformed the vehicle in so many ways. I now have the Sport Sedan I wanted when I bought the car...

Were the objective handling limits increased? Probably not. Subjectively though, the car feels absolutely fantastic with no body roll, lean, better turn-in, crisper steering, more point & shoot feel. More solid.

Now if I'm modifying a $30k (MSRP, 25k bought) turbocharged family sedan and having so much fun with it, I feel it might be a good idea to at least have one car on here in which they modify and post results. And a car with a control-vehicle is a good idea (though the alternative transmission kinda ruins it).

How big of an industry is aftermarket parts now? $10 billion? It seems like a good idea...just poorly executed in this case.

Now I want a Cobalt SS in the long-term blog, thanks to this thread :)

Joe

I second the Cobalt SS addition. Nix one of the Evos and pit the Cobalt SS against the other.

sorry folks, Cobalt SS doesnt get any respect here because it's interior isnt up to VW standards. Didnt you read the road test they posted? They didnt even seem that impressed while other publications are saying it's likely the best sports compact on the market. If I remember correctly they said the styling was too dull (as if GM was going to completely redesign a 4 year old car set to be replaced in 18 months) and the interior had too many plastics. Amazing how the whole "wolf in sheep's clothing" theme worked for the old WRX but doesn't work for the Cobalt.

1487 - Its time for a re-education camp, head straight to edmunds and pick up the I hear V-Tech shirt.

BTW, post 100. Coblat SS FTW, Lancer X3 FTL

"In fact, I doubt many (or any) of the IL staffers would be wasting their money on expensive performance mods with their real life vehicles. This is not mainstream stuff."

We do. With our own cars, money, time and sweat. And the cars span some 5 decades of automotive history with marques from all over the globe represented. (Detroit iron is represented the strongest though.)
-Mike

"BTW, post 100. Coblat SS FTW, Lancer X3 FTL"

No. The Cobalt's a kick, no doubt, but lancer's better and more fun. For 10-grand more, it better be.

I would like to see a Cobalt SS in the fleet for sure, I just like the modded Evo idea. I want to see if their interior falls apart faster than the one I sat in at the auto show (already falling apart). I think the interior would've been acceptable when I was in college. Now, not so much. The MS3's interior is world's better. I can't wait to see the new one. The vague shifter is definitely true. That and my affection for RWD has kept me from buying one.