2009 Nissan GT-R: Start This

I actually agreed with you though, since I am lazy and all....... I thought the push button start ignition was the greatest thing when it came out, now it is starting to bug me, I don't want to push that button either, I just wish the computer can read my mind and start the car when I want it to.

I am not being sarcastic either, I am really that lazy.

I thought they were gimmicky, too, until I realized how nice it is to keep the fob in your pocket and not have to fish it out for everything. Or have to worry about locking your keys in the car. Or have to fiddle with which-key-do-you-put-in-the-ignition when you're in a hurry.

Yeah, I'll take intelliKeys.

Button, knob. Doesn't really matter they both do the same thing.

To get the best of both worlds, would it be possible to have a key fob in your pocket and a knob like current keylocks to control start and accessory power? I recall one of the old Long Termers having something similar... the Versa?

I like them. It provides a sense of occasion.

The problem with key in the lock type ignition is that sometimes I hold on to the key a little too long when I start ignition and I'm afraid that I might be being a little harsh on the engine. And if I turn the key for just too short amount of time, it won't start the ignition.

But with the push-button type ignition, I don't have to worry about it.

it gives you an adrenaline rush. That is what I love about them

Keys have started cars for 90 years (thanks Cadillac). There's nothing wrong with keys.

If you don't know which key to use to start the car, (the big one with the car's emblem on it) then maybe ...well...I won't make any personal comments.

You won't damage your car by over-starting it for half a second. Know your car and know how it starts. This isn't rocket science.

I'm sure there is someone out there that wants to automate everything, doors, windows, ignition, wipers, radio, etc. Not me. I want to be in control of the car I'm driving, not have the car in control of me.

Yeah, I think the Versa has a twist keyless ignition.

I really like the idea of keeping the key in the pocket, can you elaborate why you hate it so much?

Since I usually keep my keys in my backpack when I'm on the Texas campus, it would be very helpful not digging through one of my pockets for my keys when I step into my car. Plus, there is a certain Millennium Falcon factor that goes with a Push Button Start.

I really liked some of the first keyless starters I saw...they had the start-stop button in the gearshift, as if it was Bond's car. I'm almost certain it was a Benz, but not sure what MY.

Either way, I'm a fan of the wireless key except for one thing: copious cost for extra keys. Think an immobilizer-equipped key is expensive? Try getting a spare wireless/keyless ignition key...

The CLS (and maybe other Benz cars) does it right since the start button is on the shifter knob. Push the brake pedal, press button, enjoy.

"Keys have started cars for 90 years (thanks Cadillac). There's nothing wrong with keys."

Keys break.
Keys wear out.
Tumbler pins wear out.
Worn pins can be easily picked.
Keys can be copied quickly via camera/photocopier.
It can be difficult to operate a key in the dark.
Keys can be confused with other keys.
The odds of my key opening/starting your car are orders of magnitude higher (i.e. small number of tumbler pin combinations)

Need more?

I agree that it does give a sense of occasion, like you're firing up a race car. Also, its nice to not have keys and/or fobs swinging around as you drive (though with newer keys having the fob and key as one piece that's not so much an issue anymore) and it is nice to keep the key in your pocket. However, I see it as a minor point.

My favorite starter idea comes from the VW Passat. The key goes into the slot and it IS the button. You get your sense of occasion and you get your one-stop car-start shopping all done at once.

maybe there should be a row of switches you have to flip before you can push the start button. that might "give you an adrenaline rush." as one of the other posters said

nothing is better in the morning than cranking the shaft of your car like the old days. Start buttons... dump. Keys... dump. Ignition... dump. Starter... dump. Journalists... ?

I'm one of those weirdos who still turns a key to start my car. Maybe someone more sophisticated could enlighten me--what happens when the battery in your fob dies?

As for possibly damaging your car by holding the starter too long--that's really hard to do. Most cars these days actually do the act of starting all on your own once you twist the key. In our GM car, just a quick twist will tell the starter it's time to go, and it knows just when to release.

7driver:

Keys break. - 115k miles, orignial key
Keys wear out. - 115k miles, orignial key
Tumbler pins wear out. - 115k miles, orignial key
Worn pins can be easily picked. no one picks car lcoks
Keys can be copied quickly via camera/photocopier. Ok you made a picture.. wait, why are you taking a picture/photocopy if you have the key.

It can be difficult to operate a key in the dark. You shouldnt drive then because you are too stupid.
Keys can be confused with other keys. You shouldnt drive then because you are too stupid.

The odds of my key opening/starting your car are orders of magnitude higher (i.e. small number of tumbler pin combinations), true.

-----

i'd argue that RF technology that allows cars to start might actually be easier to copy then keys. Since it can be done remotely, wirelessly, without anyone knowing. even if I have to be near the car I want to steal. A high power attena one car space away should be enough to sniff your key fob

tackepj:

For the two keyless ignition cars that I have at home (my G35x, wife's IS 250), both have backup mechanisms in case the battery in the fob dies.

Both fobs have keys built into them that can be used to open the door, and also serve for locking the glove box, as the rest of the fob can be used by a valet. On the Infiniti, the rest of the fob can be placed into a 'dock' on the lower part of the dash to the left of the steering wheel. The car detects the fob from there and will allow you to start it. On the Lexus, I believe you can hold the fob up next to the start button to have the car detect it.

I've only had my car for 1.5 months, and I love never having to take the keys out of my pocket to open or start the car. Makes things much smoother.

Finally, to whoever asked this question, the Acura RL has keyless entry but requires turning a knob where the key typically goes in order to start and stop the car. I know the 2005 model does this, but I don't know if the new ones do as well. I also think you can remove that knob from the car in order to completely prevent the car from starting even if you have a key.

dump?

Teleportation would make this whole conversation moot.

I like my MC's push button start. I agree that its a sense of occasion and sort of like starting a race car or something along those lines.

opfreakx beat me to it, but I can't help myself. :)

"Keys break."
More than an RF device? Never seen either happen. More years than you need to know.

"Keys wear out."
Never seen it happen. I have seen RF devices wear out though.

"Tumbler pins wear out."
I did see that happen once. I think it was an early 70's Vega. Thankfully, keys are coded now.

"Worn pins can be easily picked."
Break the window. It's easier, but you still can't start a car by picking the lock.

"Keys can be copied quickly via camera/photocopier."
Break the window, but you still can't start a car by picking the lock.

"It can be difficult to operate a key in the dark."
My dome light comes on and there's a little light over the keyhole. I don't need either.

"Keys can be confused with other keys."
Door (not car door) keys, yes. Car keys, not so much.

"The odds of my key opening/starting your car are orders of magnitude higher (i.e. small number of tumbler pin combinations)"
Your key won't start my car. Keys have been coded for 20 years.

"Need more?"
Yes please.

Pengwin -- I'm all for that. Flip a switch to turn on the brake and steering hydraulics. Hear the hmmmmm of the mechanism. Flip a switch to start the fuel pump. Hear the bzzzzz. The juices are flowing. Am I in a Ferrari 512 getting ready to take on Michael Delaney? Push the starter button. Hear the motor (take your pick: bark, snarl, rasp) into life. Andrenaline suitably rushed, and I'm off to Tertre Rouge... oh, wait, the dry cleaners first.

I think the pushbutton start is neat, but it is really a gimmicky feature. I mean if my next car had it, great, but if not, that's fine too. I certainly wouldn't pay for it as an option.

Here's another vote in favor of keyless ignition. It's really handy keeping the key in your pocket. Like stingray, I probably wouldn't pay extra for that feature. But it's cool to just walk up and open the door or trunk and go. The ones that you have to insert into the dash are stupid. If you have to handle it, what's the point of wireless?

Wow, you just have to love a blog entry that consists of a completely conclusory statement with nothing whatsoever to back it up.

Having used a smartkey for over a year, I hope never to return to the "old" ways. Every time I get into my wife's car and have to extract the key from my pocket, stick the thing in the ignition, then crank it 'til it turn over, I think "Wow, how totally retro." Kinda like using an old phone with a circular dial pad. Quaint, but not something I want to go back to.

Not being able to drive your $80,000 supercar for weeks on end because it's at the dealer being torn apart. Dumb.

I had an e90 with keyless entry/start. Loved it. Can't understand anyone who prefer fumbling for keys when they want inside a car or turn one on or off.

Start buttons. GOOD.

Once you use the fob and start button daily, you'll never go back. If it is a true RF (no need to insert the fob into a slot) it is AWESOME...Two of our 3 cars are START BUTTON (G35xS and Highlander Ltd)...I'd never go back to keys again!

FWIW, I don't care about car theft, RF thieves, batteries wearing out, etc. I care about convenience...never reaching into your pocket to unlock a door or trunk is fantastic. Once you have keyless entry/go, it's tough to go back. It's like living without refrigeration. You can but your life is just a little bit less enjoyably.

Josh Jacqout... dumb.

Hey Josh, if you've ever owned a car with keyless entry and push button start, you'd realize how incredibly convenient it is to never have to remove the key fob from your pocket.

I know this amounts to a public admission of my dorkiness, but the picture sgude painted is really appealing to me. I would buy a sports car that had individual toggle switches for the various systems. :)

The Mini has nice toggles, though not as "authentic" as those in sgude's description.

Another vote here for keyless starting. The only thing I don't like about the start button is having to push the button multiple times if you need to go from say, engine running to just ignition on. Usually that means like 3-4 pushes of the button with your feet off the pedals. However I see that as a minor inconvenience a few times here and there compared to the major added convenience of NEVER having to take my keys out of my pocket.

I have the keyless twist thing like on the Versa and the Acura. I agree, its one of my favorite features that my car knows who daddy is when I walk up to the door.

Josh, if you don't like the push button, what do you suggest instead?

Pengwin- Those switches would be rad. I can't forget that one episode of top gear though, when the guys head out to find the perfect driving road. James gets some race spec Astin Martin, and he forgets how to start it and creates a little traffic jam. I guess captain slow is a bit of a knob though.

Oooh, anecdotal evidence! I can play that game too.

"Keys break. - 115k miles, orignial key"

What, you've never seen the horror movie where the victim tries to start the car and the key breaks in the lock? :-)

"Keys wear out. - 115k miles, orignial key"

50k miles, daily key looks nothing like my spare key any more.

"Tumbler pins wear out. - 115k miles, orignial key"

80k miles, lock can just about be turned by a keyblank.

"Worn pins can be easily picked. no one picks car lcoks"

Right. They bust open the cylinder. Can't do that with RF tech.

"Keys can be copied quickly via camera/photocopier. Ok you made a picture.. wait, why are you taking a picture/photocopy if you have the key."

Imagine this: You're at a supermarket and you set your keys and wallet down to dig into your pocket in order to get rid of some pennies you've had in there since forever. I get my cameraphone and snap a pic of your keys. A few seconds later with a blank and a cutter and I've got a copy of your keys now.

"It can be difficult to operate a key in the dark. You shouldnt drive then because you are too stupid."

Oh, like you've never dropped your keys in the dark. Maybe you should get a job with the NFL as a wide receiver?

"Keys can be confused with other keys. You shouldnt drive then because you are too stupid."

Too stupid, eh? This coming from someone who can't spell correctly?

You drive an Accord. Your uncle drives an Accord. Your cousin drives an Accord. Your grandma drives an Accord. They all ask you to look after their cars as they go on vacation and dump on you all their keys at once. You now have 4 identical keys for 4 different cars. Sure it wouldn't be hard to figure out which is which, but you consider that fun?

You said you wanted more? Here's more:

Keys scratch (see Camry long term blog)
Keys take up unnecessary additional space when you already have a remote locking.
Cylinders have inflexible placement; need to be next to steering column and/or door lock
It is trivial to bust open a cylinder, as mentioned above.

So I've named off 12 things wrong with keys. In the interest of being fair and balanced, I'll list off all the things wrong with keyless start buttons:

Old guys are scared of new technology.

You know, this discussion pops up from time to time on various forums, with various cars being the subject of cmmentary. I can hardly think of one time where an OWNER of a car with a smartkey and push-button ignition proclaimed it "dumb" and wished they could go back to the way it was before.

It's not the biggest deal in the world, but it is inarguably more convenient than the old insert-and-crank system. Just like power windows are more convenient than wind-up. Just like keyless (remote fob)entry is more comvenient than having to manually insert a key in a doorlock. It's not that you can't get by without it, it's that once you have it, you don't want to give it up.

And I still think this is by far the most utterly lame blog entry I have ever read on Edmunds.

OK JJ...

...what EXACTLY is so dumb about it?

7driver - given that key techonolgy has been around forever, the number of broken keys, is rather low, So while I had a single example, its not like my 115k miles is in anyway special.

BTW, a camera phone snap shot at a store is now good enough to capture both the front and back of a key with enough accuracy as to make a clone? LOL.

Yet, you ignored my final reason: Sniffing an RF signal is far easier, then your camera phone key copy.

7driver, I quite enjoyed your rebut to opfreakx. I guess when he beats me to the punch, I get to be a bystander. I'm OK with that. :)

Like many have said, keyless is nice. I'd take it if it were (nearly) free. I wouldn't pay a $100 premium for it. The price will drop below that point (RFID should be cheap). In ten years, they'll all be keyless and we won't have these discussions.

opfreak, yes sniffing RF is far easier...so? I pay for insurance so if anyone takes one of my cars, it's gone and I get a replacement.

I leave nothing of value in my cars because cars are so easy to steal.

Agree with brn - it'll be a standard item like HVAC sooner rather than later. When joker companies like Mazda and Nissan are offering it, you know it's a short jump to standard.

z479, nice spamming ;)

It's really hard to key someone's car with the keyless fob. Best I could do is leave a little black smudge.

"BTW, a camera phone snap shot at a store is now good enough to capture both the front and back of a key with enough accuracy as to make a clone? LOL."

Yup. 2Megapixel sensor behind a MEMS autofocus.

"Yet, you ignored my final reason: Sniffing an RF signal is far easier, then your camera phone key copy."

Hello? Rolling code technology? Or how about x509 style certificates encapsulating public key encryption?

BTW, I offer x509 style certificates just as an example of something that's unbreakable within the lifetime of the owner and don't really expect automakers to implement them. Cheaper yet still unbreakable within the lifetime of the car would be 128bit AES MAC or HMAC.

I love this feature. It is impossible for me to lock my keys in the car or trunk (I tried). It beeps at you and either unlocks the doors or pops open the trunk automatically. That's worth the price of admission.

Add in the ability to leave the key in my pocket at all times and the fact that there are no keys dangling and slamming into my leg, and you've got a winner in my book.

Unrelated to this post but WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MOST RECENT ONE!?
"edmunds.com boycotted for telling truth"

My grand father is the expert on the old typing machines. However, computers are so sophisticated for him to understand that he calls them dumb.

"I love this feature. It is impossible for me to lock my keys in the car or trunk (I tried). It beeps at you and either unlocks the doors or pops open the trunk automatically. That's worth the price of admission."

You know that almost kind of makes sense to me - what with you providing an articulable reason why this feature is useful beyond the obvious convenience. But you must somehow have it all wrong. After all, we know it's dumb. Because Josh says so.

You've generated quite the buzz, Jacquot, now please explain to us why Start buttons are dumb, thanks.

Was Edmunds just hacked?

One thing I agreed with Josh Jacquot, the GTR's starter button possibly is placed at the worse location out of all cars that has this button. The driver has to bend their arm at a weird angle to press that button.

On the steering wheel is the best, since our hand has to grab the steering wheel. AKA Ferrari.

Has anyone else heard about Porsche challenging Nissan on the GT-R times at Nurenburg?

It is a big blog going on at GMInsideNews.

Funny, not one word from Edmunds? Why?

Inquiring minds want to know?

"Was Edmunds just hacked?" LOL

Wow this blog has gotten really out of control. Josh let me be the one to apologize to you on behalf of all those in this blog who have attacked you personally. The very idea of making attacks like that because of someone's opinion is ludicrous. But I digress...

Anyway, I am kind of in agreement with Josh on this one. Both my wife's car and mine have keyless ignition and it's really great for mundane daily errand running. It certainly isn't necessary and I would have no qualms with going back to a classic key, but the convenience is certainly appreciated.

However, for a sports car I find starter buttons to be kind of antiseptic. I realize race cars use them, but there is something so satisfying about twisting a key and feeling the engine roar to life. Would I prefer this for my daily driver? No, but for a weekend car I like that little extra connection. That's just me though.

As a side note: the S-Class was the first to have the start button built into the gear-shift back in 2000. It was also the first car to have keyless ignition. That then spread to the CL, SL, SLR McLaren, and CLS. The new S and CL, however, have a start button on the dashboard because they lack a conventional gear shift.

i'm not saying theirs anything wrong with the button.

I'm was going after 7driver, who was ripping on keys,

The GTR start button is great! I love leaving the key in my pocket to get in and start the car, it now irritates me to use a key with my other cars. The GTR's start process is not mundane with the start button it actually feels great since you almost hear the starter spin, the car kick over and roar to life with a shudder to the car.

I think the starter button is great and would enjoy how it starts the GTR.

"i'm not saying theirs anything wrong with the button."

Yes you did. You said that RF sniffing is easier than making a copy of a key from a photo, which is not true and in the end you only showed your ignorance of wireless security and encryption protocols.

BTW, I forgot to mention that car keys are symmetrical which means you only need to photo one side of the key, not both.

7driver - anything wireless can be hacked, fact of life.

2nd "keys are symmetrical" way to show your ignorace.

right here i have a key from a scion. Its not even a fancey laser cut key. Geuss what, if you only have a picture of one side, youd be missing half the picture.

7driver, the only ignorant one here is you:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-6516433-1.html

At the end of the day, there is just about nothing that hackers can't clone, hack, decrypt etc.

Theres no such thing as an unlockable lock.

"At the end of the day, there is just about nothing that hackers can't clone, hack, decrypt etc."

If that's your belief, then you are seriously deficient in math. The problem and the solution were directly identified in the article you linked: they use 40-bit encryption (sounds like it's RC4) when they should be using 128-bit AES. The latter is unbreakable within the lifetime of the car. As proof, DES encryption, AES's predecessor, remained virtually unbreakable for about 30+ years. It's offshoot, triple-DES, is still without a viable hack today.

"right here i have a key from a scion. Its not even a fancey laser cut key. Geuss what, if you only have a picture of one side, youd be missing half the picture."

I have here a Mazda key and an Acura key. Whether you flip them over or not, they're the same. You only need 1 side to duplicate one.

One thing to try with your Scion key: put it in the lock and operate it. Then take it out, turn it 180 degrees and try to operate it again. If it doesn't work then congratulations, it's not symmetric. If it does work, then it LOOKS asymmetric but it isn't.

We have a new troll in our midst: z479.

aurakr wrote, "Has anyone else heard about Porsche challenging Nissan on the GT-R times at Nurenburg?"

That's really funny. I'm sure he/she meant Nurburgring but mentioning Nure[m]berg in this context makes it sound like Porsche is taking Nissan to the Court -- perhaps for crimes against auto enthusiasts. Somehow aurakr also thinks that Edmunds is being silent on this recent news.

7driver - who design the encyrption:

Thats right, humans, are humans perfect? No.

All it takes is to find a single flaw in the whole remote start system and then EVERY car using it can be stolen easily.

Recently it was found out, that a linux distro while using 128 encryption, was programing badly that only a few thosands keys were generated. Without a patch, a simple burte force method could easily crack the encryption.

You copy a key you have access to a single car, you crack the code, you get access to all the cars.

"who design the encyrption: Thats right, humans, are humans perfect? No. All it takes is to find a single flaw in the whole remote start system and then EVERY car using it can be stolen easily."

The same can be said about physical keys. Remember the Kryptonite lock that can be broken in 5 seconds with a Bic pen? On this point, both encryption and physical keys are on even footing: both can be royally screwed by boneheaded engineers/designers.