2007 Saturn Aura XR: The Sunroof Situation

I really don't see anything here other than some very minor personal preference issues. Especially, the gripe about the wind deflector. This must be a mighty fine vehicle if you're having issues with using a mesh fabric for the wind deflector.

Until the most recent models Acuras and Hondas did not have one touch moonroofs either. At least that how it is in my 2004 Accord and 2006 TSX.

In regards to the mesh shorts wind deflector; yeah it seems kind of cheap, but at least GM is no longer making the sunroof extend over the roof of the car. That was cheap!

Uh oh, here it comes...

A definite deal breaker. BTW, how many non luxury cars have one touch open and close sunroofs? I haven't seen many. I thought if you pressed and held the open button it would auto open.

"The new Lincoln MKS has one of these too. Not the best company for the Aura to be keeping."

Just noticed this nonsense. The MKS starts at $37k and has been widely praised for having a nice interior. Why would the Aura be embarrassed to share a part with a luxury car costing thousands more? I guess anything related to a Lincoln is supposed to be negative because Lincolns arent cool amongst the import crazy crowd in Cali. I'm not into Lincolns either but you have to commend them for improving with the MKS.

I really wonder if people actually drive the Aura because there are no subtantive complaints. How can you drive this car and not comment on the REAL annoyances such as the thick A pillars? The turning circle and A pillars are more important than all the nitpicking complaints posted in this blog combined. No one gives a damn about the sunroof switch.

Wow, that hate for the Aura is now officially confirmed.

Our 03 Civic does the same thing (makes you hold the button the whole time it's closing). Huge PITA every time you get out of the car. I agree with Josh, this sucks.

In my opinion, if you can't keep your head and arms inside the sunroof while it's closing, you don't deserve to have one. And if automakers make me sit for fifteen seconds while I wait for it to close, I won't plop down 1200 bucks on a higher trim level next-time-around.

1487,

I'm pretty sure you have to press twice. On the second press, auto-open is activated, but that's after you've first tilted the roof up.

One-touch open/close non-luxury cars off the top of my head: I believe the Altima, Accord, and new Mazda 6 all have it. Volkswagens with the rotary dial, of course (that would be "one-twist," I suppose). I think Camry, but I can't be sure. It's common enough that I take it for granted when I get into a midsize car, which is why the Aura's situation was notable.

I'll check the long-term Accord on my lunchbreak.

-Sadlier

Sorry, just noticed 1487's second salvo. The MKS is not a competitive car in its segment, which is why it's bad company for the Aura to be keeping. I don't "have to commend Lincoln for improving with the MKS" -- rather, I have to wonder what the heck they're thinking going into battle at $37k-and-up with a gussied-up Ford Taurus.

File this one under "Sure To Fall On Deaf Ears": Try driving a car first, and speaking authoritatively about it second.

Why not just get rid of the Aura early since it's obviously the biggest POS on the market? That way it could go down in history as the first Long Term vehicle to be released ahead of schedule for being complete trash.

Interesting comment about the mesh sunroof deflector. I've never driven a car with one but I've seen them cropping up on Audis (Q7 comes to mind) and other premium cars. I'd hardly criticize the Aura or MKS as being cheap for a design element that shows up in cars costing twice as much.

In any case, it would be interesting to learn what the rationale is behind these deflectors and what pros and cons manufacturers consider when choosing the mesh over a fixed panel.

I would say that the system on my Legacy GT Wagon that utilizes the front glass panel as a deflector works great and is probably more effective than most of the pop up panels I've experienced in other cars.

the camrys' is auto back after holding about 2 seconds, and auto close after 2 seconds also. I think GM was trying to save money because antipinch windows now have to be standard if something is AUTO close. They just didn't want to invest in the extra programming/motor mechanicals, there's always next time...(by the way we own 3 GM vehicles and I love mine)

Wow it is amazing the bias edmunds has on this car.

I would say the mesh screen is probably one of the best screens i have seen in a car. I have been in a lot of cars and this seems to keep the wind the quietest and still does its job.

Hey its doing its job correctly but its on a gm car so we have to complain about it somehow. The auto close is not a big deal at all. Ive seen a lot of cars without auto close and it doesnt bother anyone. u hit it once the window pops up u hit it again and it comes back.

Some cars if u hit forward it pops up and then if u have the urge to go all the way back if u were at up before u have to hit it twice to make it go back. Seriously if we have to nitpick about these little things then it must be a nice car.

Whats more important that u have comfortable seats and u have to hold the sunroof button the aura or very uncomfortable seats and u have one touch close the accord. HMM let me way my options i will go with the aura.

If we really want to nitpick then i will start. Most japanese cars are uncomfortable, they do not have the leg or hip room like the american cars, they sound like cheap pieces of crap, they have no low end torque, no style, no class, nothing they are all just the same. The american cars actually have character and that is just not allowed on this website. Somehow the malibu is praised but the aura isnt. the malibu and aura are 99% the same. The only difference is that the malibu has a different dash pad basically. Everything else is the same.

I will keep saying it take an american car and take a japanese car. Beat the living crap out of them. Rev the piss out of them, dont change oil, dont maintain, dont do much and the japanese car will break first. In the past 6 months i have seen 5 honda motors smash their valves because their timing belt slipped and boom. I walked into a lexus dealership in the back and they had 6 motors out because the owners didnt change the oil right away and the oil crystalized. People that buy chevys and pontiacs dont change their oil but if u walk into their shop you will never see that many motors out. My brother just changed the oil in his blazer has 250,000 miles and the last oil change was 20,000 miles ago. It never burned any oil and hasnt had any problems. Do that with a japanese car.

I will give another example i just helped my friend work on his 04 3 series. Wow what an overcomplicated piece of crap. As an engineer i just had to laugh. The germans have never heard the phrase keep it simple stupid. Why in one section do you have to use 60 different bolts and screw heads and sizes. It is stupid.

I dont know why people dont see that the americans really do have the best engineering. They keep it very simple which allows a vehicle to be reliable, smooth, fast, and if it does break cheap to fix.

By the way z479 the sunroof in the aura even those doesnt have auto close it still has anti pinch i tried it.

I am done ranting.

My 20k 06 Honda Civic SI has one-touch auto open and close. It's a single button (of higher quality than the button in the picture above too) that if you press straight up on, it auto-opens to full vent position (rear tilted up only).

If you press the button straight back, it will auto open the whole sunroof (or if you exert less pressure on it, it'll allow you to guide). If you press straight forward, same thing.

One of the better sunroofs I've seen/owned.

My wife's Legacy GT is a two button affair...one for venting, the other for opening and closing. It's not as nice of an interface overall.

The pictures above are fairly uncomplimentary to the Aura. That sunroof button looks to me like a classic GM button....cheap, overly shiny plastic. And it looks like it would wiggle around a little bit in it's opening.

The deflector does look really cheap too, and like it won't age well. I could be wrong, but that's an area that gets alot of abuse in the form of moisture and dirt (and then wind of course). I imagine that fabric might not hold up.

My 06 Civic SI has a solid plastic deflector that pops up....it seems suitable for the price of the car.

I don't understand what the big deal is about single-button auto up/down windows/sunroofs. My 06 Civic SI has the function on the driver's side, and now I absolutely love it. It's combined with super fast windows, which I also love. I can hit down on my window switch when the door is open, close the door casually, and by the time the door is closed it's already all the way down.

Compared to my Legacy GT, which has auto-down only and takes...literally....about 7-8 seconds for the window to go down.

Annoying.

Joe

legacygt,

Interesting that you noticed a mesh deflector on the Q7. I drove an A5 recently and didn't notice it there. Maybe it is a broader trend, I dunno. Definitely looks/feels cheap, but I can't deny that it's functional (especially in the Aura...buffeting in the MKS isn't that bad).

-Sadlier

Oach - Wow, you really need to get a clue man. Let me address how foolish you sounded in how many ways:

"Most japanese cars are uncomfortable, they do not have the leg or hip room like the american cars, they sound like cheap pieces of crap, they have no low end torque, no style, no class, nothing they are all just the same."

But hey, I guess Edmunds is the one with the unstoppable bias, huh? The statements of GM and Ford execs rebut your claims, in that they have come out and said that the Japanese, over the past 25 yeas, and have made (slowly) realize how much they needed to change about the way they did things. Especially quality.

"The american cars actually have character and that is just not allowed on this website."

Huh? There are definitely american cars with character, but they've only started to come out more in recent years and there's still too much crap. Take Hyundai for example...they made lots of crap 10 years ago. Now? They are making some fine products and are recognized as such. They are a great example of how a car company that was biased against can turn that bias around. What does that say to you about the rest of the industry?

"I will keep saying it take an american car and take a japanese car. Beat the living crap out of them. Rev the piss out of them, dont change oil, dont maintain, dont do much and the japanese car will break first. In the past 6 months i have seen 5 honda motors smash their valves because their timing belt slipped and boom."

Unfortunately, your anecdote goes against surveys and research from the past 25 years. Honda motors do have interference engines....interference engines that don't get a timing belt changed on time can have major problems. How is that a design flaw? That's a maintenance flaw. Non-interference engines are great, but they are differently designed as part of being non-interference.

"I walked into a lexus dealership in the back and they had 6 motors out because the owners didnt change the oil right away and the oil crystalized. People that buy chevys and pontiacs dont change their oil but if u walk into their shop you will never see that many motors out. My brother just changed the oil in his blazer has 250,000 miles and the last oil change was 20,000 miles ago. It never burned any oil and hasnt had any problems. Do that with a japanese car."

Here's where you really lost all respect from my perspective. You obviously have very little knowledge in oils. Oil doesn't "crystalize" in an engine because it's not changed right away. If there were 6 motors that failed due to lack of oil changes, the oil was run a ridiculously long time.

What type of oil was your brother running? I've got 15k on my current oil change in my 06 Honda Civic SI. It's doing just fine, thank you. And that's backed up by oil analysis. But I'm running good quality oil.

Just about any modern engine with good synthetic oil will run 10k without any problems. Some alot longer.

You seem blinded by your own bias and ignorance, and unwilling to see the stupidity in your arguments. You give examples that mean nothing (a timing belt slipped and the valve broke, what a piece of crap. Huh?)....you are just supporting your inherent bias.

Learn a little more and then post again.

Joe

Also, I meant to say that more american cars with character are being released in recent years, than have been in years past (i.e. since, say 1995).

I had a 1988 ford thunderbird turbo coupe with a non-interference engine that slipped the timing belt. Which was great that it didn't kill my engine...but it was my own fault for letting the timing belt maintenance go. Now that was a car with character....how was it that 20 years ago Ford had a 3500 pound RWD car with an LSD, 5-speed, 190 HP/240 tq 2.3 liter turbocharged, intercooled engine that consistently achieved 21 city/30 highway. It had plush seats, power everything, and was seriously capable of hitting 130 mph. It had an adjustable suspension for sport/comfort driving. It had a switch to utilize regular vs. high octane fuel. And it's whole drivetrain was rock solid.

And I bought that car for $200 at an auction.

Last time I checked, the XF also has a mesh fabric for a wind blocker.

One touch open/close? I just wish there was a one touch make-this-thing-go-away-and-credit-my-bank-account. To me, sunroofs are useless.

Oachalon, please calm down its just a button. I had to read your post about 3 times to soak up all the negative comments.

"I walked into a lexus dealership in the back and they had 6 motors out because the owners didnt change the oil right away and the oil crystalized."

Ive owned 2 Lexus vehicles, a 1996 ES300 and a 2000 GS400 so Ive had the "Lexus service experience" and as usual it exceeded my expectations. What I dont understand is how YOU can just go to your local Lexus dealer and just walk in the area where the Lexus techs are servicing/repairing cars. Engines just laying around, sorry not in a Lexus service department as the floors are so clean one could litterally eat off them.

"In the past 6 months i have seen 5 honda motors smash their valves because their timing belt slipped and boom."

If the timing belt slipped off it probably wasnt installed properly or the tension was wrong. If the belt breaks more than likely it was way past due for maintenance. Honda recommends every 90K miles but Ive seen a few extremely neglected Hondas at my local independent Honda/Acura shop WAY over that mark with belts still in tact. Honda gives you plently of time to get it changed.

No excuse for neglect as there is a BIG difference in being able to afford to PURCHASE a vehicle and being able to afford to OWN a vehicle. If you cant afford it, dont buy it.

This comment was the funniest:

"People that buy chevys and pontiacs dont change their oil but if u walk into their shop you will never see that many motors out."

Chevy and Pontiac owners DONT change their oil? I didnt know that.

"I will give another example i just helped my friend work on his 04 3 series. Wow what an overcomplicated piece of crap. As an engineer i just had to laugh. The germans have never heard the phrase keep it simple stupid. Why in one section do you have to use 60 different bolts and screw heads and sizes. It is stupid."

If youre an engineer Im the next president of the United States as an engineer would know the difference between a motor (electric) and an engine.

Underwear fabric is not an acceptable material for a car.

Whoever had the big brains to make that decision needs to have his head removed from where that fabric should be.

sad,

First of all I dont get to drive cars for free for a living so I (like 99% of your readers) havent had a chance to drive the MKS. Secondly, most reviews of the MKS have said the interior is nice except for a few minor issues that seem too downmarket. Thirdly, based on power, size and features the MKS absolutety is competitive with other large FWD/AWD luxury cars. The fact that you think Lincoln is a lame brand doesn't mean the car isn't competitive. Last, the bottom line is the MKS starts at $37k vs $20k for the Aura so to any sane person it wouldnt be considering insulting to say a component of the Aura is similar to a component in a brand new Lincoln.

BTW, I can speak authoritatively on the Aura and as an expert on the car I can tell you this complaint ranks near the top when it comes to insignificance. The car has real shortcomings that would annoy an owner but IL seems to have trouble finding those issues because they would rather focus on silly issues such as this one.

"Somehow the malibu is praised but the aura isnt. the malibu and aura are 99% the same. The only difference is that the malibu has a different dash pad basically. Everything else is the same."

I have made that point before. The differences between the two cars are strictly aesthetic. They are on the same platform, have the same dimensions and handling characeristics and are built on the same assembly line.

I just want to know how we can prove that the Aura's mesh screen is "cheap". Cheap compared to what? As far as I can tell the mesh is being criticized because the author has determined that only inferior American cars use this material in their wind deflectors. My guess is that it serves a purpose and is no cheaper than a similar component in an Accord.

Joe,

You seem quick to postulate on how cheap GM cars are made when as far as I know you havent even sat in half of them. A sunroof button is one of the least looked at and minor buttons in a car. I'm not sure any sunroof button on any car is worth more than $5. Not sure how you surmised that the Aura's button is "typical GM cheap plastic". All sunroof buttons I've seen are small pieces of hard plastic. Also, the button doesnt wiggle around at all. It moves the way it was designed. It's amazing that folks are now left to use items like sunroof buttons to illustrate the supposed superiority of Japanese engineering nd quality control.

"Definitely looks/feels cheap"

Who touched a wind deflector unless they are looking hard for something to criticize? I never touched this component in the Aura or my last car. I would assume most owners don't do that either.

Interesting that there has been so much focus on the "cheap" materials in this car but little focus on the upscale touches like the Audi/VW like woven material on the headliner and pillars. Camry still has cardboard with fur on its headliner if I'm not mistaken. Also the chrome bits on the vent louver controls and shift surround are things that were only found in luxury cars only a few years back. This car also has a lined decklid and struts when several of its Japanese competitors do not. Of course they are never criticized for cost cutting but I'm sure that has nothing to do with double standards.

A lot of the features this car has are related to the fact that it shares parts with the Vectra in Europe. I'm willing to bet that you will find any number of Euro cars with the mesh headliner. I'll let the experts who drive cars for a living investigate that though.

LOL, i'm sorry, you guys are really losing it.

Its a button, it works. Just because it doesn't work the way YOU want it, does not mean theres anything wrong with it.

Why doesn't edmunds just give up on anything made in america.

Put on their I heart V-tech shirts and be happy.

Then sit there reving your engines to 8billion rpm, so that it sounds fast and goes slow.

On the control issue, I'm siding with Josh on this one. My grandma's Rav4 has a similar setup with one button and no one-touch. Trying to close it from the vent position opened it, and trying to close it from the open position sent it to the vent position. You couldn't close it unless you released the button at the exactly correct nano-second. If my grandma wasn't sitting there watching me trying to close it my fist would have gone through the sunroof. I'm disappointed GM didn't trump Toyota in this regard. Its not a deal-breaker for the car, but it could easily make me reconsider getting the sunroof option.

However, I on the mesh wind-deflector I have to sharply disagree. That looks like a quality application to me, and since it works, I see no problem. I doubt it will have wear problems, but if it does I'm sure it will not be costly to replace. Until now I've heard nothing but very good reviews for the MKS, so if the Aura keeps company with that and Audi in this regard, I consider that a very good thing.

The VW dial sunroof operator is clearly the best design, imo. I don't know why other companies don't use it.

Regrading the Aura's sunroof operator: my family's old 95 Buick regal had the same operation. I definitely prefer the VWs dial, but I could live with either. The truth of the matter is that sunroofs are a terrible waste anyways.

The anti/pro GM articles on this blogs are ridiculous. I sometimes wonder if you guys read what you type before hitting 'submit'. Why is it that some many of the people on this site who go on real rants have such poor grammar? Under-age, I guess?

Not having 1 touch open and close is annoying, GM probably spent all the of the money on the half-LED taillights and carpeting the trunklid.

The knob is definitely a good design, I don't like the fact that to open the sunroof completely you have to hold it down, almost open is no biggy, just twist it.

Opfreak - When "those vtech [sic] engines rev to 8billion rpm" they both sound fast and go fast. HP is a function of torque x rpm....so you don't need much torque to get tremendous power out of a high revving engine. And since HP is the measure of acceleration, torque really doesn't do much without those high rpms.

It degrades your point when you mindlessly bash like that.

Back On topic: Why don't you guys understand that a poor design is a poor design? I love my new Subaru Legacy GT....but many of these same issues the editors mention I don't like about my own car.

The sunroof controls aren't logical, the windows go down way to slow, they are only auto down on the driver's side (and the pressure needed to activate the auto down aren't that good), the pedal placement, under-dash foot space, and dead pedal are terribly spaced for my size 12s.

The 5-speed is pretty rough, as is the drivetrain overall so far. The steering wheel is slightly angled in a way that is not how my wrist likes, and there's no way to change the angle of the steering wheel. The stock suspension/tires are disconnected feeling on the highway right now.

The stock engine tuning is really rough as well, it's jerky and unsmooth. There's a petition about an engine stutter.

I could go on on several issues....but hey, I guess this type of criticism is ridiculous because the car gets me from point a to point b.

Joe

P.s. 1487 - I've seen that same grade of plastic used in a fair number of GM products....and I think it looks like a Pre-Skool grade plastic. I find it cheap in the G35 cupholders as well. How does that make me ridiculous?

"Why is it that some many of the people on this site who go on real rants have such poor grammar? Under-age, I guess?"

Umm, look who is talking. Some many???

Joe,

"But hey, I guess Edmunds is the one with the unstoppable bias, huh? The statements of GM and Ford execs rebut your claims, in that they have come out and said that the Japanese, over the past 25 yeas, and have made (slowly) realize how much they needed to change about the way they did things. Especially quality."

Joe i dont really care what edmunds or what other people think. This if from my own experience. You can not base anything in life from what other people think.

"Unfortunately, your anecdote goes against surveys and research from the past 25 years. Honda motors do have interference engines....interference engines that don't get a timing belt changed on time can have major problems. How is that a design flaw? That's a maintenance flaw. Non-interference engines are great, but they are differently designed as part of being non-interference."

The 5 honda engines that had the timing belt slip 4 of them were under 60k the 5th one had 85k. They were all before the recommended replacement mileage and time than the manual. So this was a design flaw not a maintenance flaw? Honda was nice enough to fix it for free which was nice of them but it still should not happen. I understand if the owner doesnt do proper maintanence and they slip but they always followed it.

"Here's where you really lost all respect from my perspective. You obviously have very little knowledge in oils. Oil doesn't "crystalize" in an engine because it's not changed right away. If there were 6 motors that failed due to lack of oil changes, the oil was run a ridiculously long time."

I know that oil doesnt "crystalize" that was the line of bs that their service manager told us. We were there because our company was supplying parts to toyota so we had taken a tour of a couple of their facilities.

"If youre an engineer Im the next president of the United States as an engineer would know the difference between a motor (electric) and an engine."

Joe i was typing in a hurry and normally i call anything electric wise motors and anything combustion engines but i quickly messed up. But i do have to call you out on something. Have you ever looked at the definitions of motors and engines they never specifically state that a motor has to electric or gas.

Yes i am an engineer. My speciality is 3 phase power. 3 phase induction motors, synchronous motors, transformer, transmission lines, etc. But i am not too bad in control systems, programming PLCS, PID controllers, and i can hold my own with knowledge in electronics.

I am also in the process of making an electric car with a 3 phase motor but that is in my free time and will be a long time till that one is finished.

By the way he was using castrol gtx 5W30 with a cheap fram oil filter which is known to be average to bad oil filters.

Im sorry for the rant that i have said but i am just sick of hearing the bashing about cars that dont need to be bashed. Yes every car manufacturer makes a pretty reliable car, but the reviews of cars these days are just so biased against the american car companies. I understand that their late 80s and early 90s cars werent great but they werent bad. They were pretty reliable and i still see tons of them on the road. I would just like every car to be tested on an even level and today in this market they are not.

I dont kow what it is that cars cant be reviewed and tested evenly. In most other markets items are reviewed without a bias. We need to somehow figure out a way for magazines to review a car without knowing at all who the manufacturer is. Its kinda the same way in the home theater market where people get a bias against a certain speaker company. Then they find out when they do a blind test that the speaker they hated before the test, they have come to find out they actually like it, but their bias against a company is clouding their mind.

Everyone have a good night.

I need to read what i write before i post it. Half of it makes no sense!! WE NEED AN EDIT BUTTON EDMUNDS!!

Ehh doesnt matter its the internet nothing useful on here anyway so i guess i can look retarded. Just makes things more fun.

joefrompa - i respect your opinion, but my post was about as logical as the ramblings of josh.

and IMHO, the paid staff at edmunds should be held to a higher standard.

the button looks fine to me. I have a sunroof in my sunfire, works extacly the same way.

in 114k miles, and 8 years of operation, it has never failed, fell out, broke, wore out, moved in any direction other then intended.

I've seen screens like the aura has on my different cars. To imply there is something wrong with the design and/or qaulity of the aura piece, without ANY proof. Is just trash journalism.

And while I was over the top in my 8 billion rpm torqueless engine... Just about everyone on the planet perfers the every day feel of torque, vs the endless reving of most honda engines. Sure the honda engine sounds fun... But look at the extreme example with the diesel jetta... lots of downlow toqrue feels better.

like the saying goes, people buy hp, drive tq

The button is lacking, it needs a one touch close, and it needs a tilt button like most other cars. Why it doesn't have this and decides to make things tedious is beyond me. That's what I got from the post and it's a valid point, so he doesn't think the noise visor on most cars with a panoramic sunroof looks cheap because it's mesh, soooo what. It certainly matches the rest of the Aura's interior.

As a journalist here at IL/Edmunds, I ordinarily don't weigh in on these tangential "import bias" debates. But I'm going to break with tradition here and share a few thoughts.

(1) On the Aura sunroof switch, note my conclusion that it's "a throwback to an earlier age of sunroof design." That is correct. Most competitors, perhaps all, have one-touch open and close sunroofs (like the Accord, which I verified on our long-termer at lunch), so in this way the Aura is behind the times. It's as simple as that. Am I nitpicking? Obviously. But hey, there have been seventeen thousand posts on this car. We're kind of running out of things to say.

Also, note the sunroof switch I compared the Aura's to -- the one in my '95 Integra. An "import," as it happens. Point being, I don't like having to hold down sunroof switches, period, regardless of where the automaker has its headquarters.

(2) 1487, I do appreciate your implicit admission that you are in no position to speak authoritatively about the MKS driving experience, as opposed to the Aura, with which you're apparently intimately familiar. You can (and are of course encouraged to) speculate on models you haven't sat in or driven, based on what you've read in our and other publications, but an authoritative tone is best avoided while speculating. Your fellow discussants will admire you for your restraint.

(3) Regarding "import bias," frankly, most people I know in this profession are eagerly awaiting an American automotive renaissance, and they'd like nothing more than to break the news to the world. See, for example, the frenzied initial reaction to the Chevy Malibu, which has since died down because we've all realized that while it's a pretty good car and a definite step in the right direction, it's not the world-beater we all thought (hoped) it would be at first. That initial reaction was a function of our collective desire to see the American automakers snap out of it and start making no-excuses cars that can compete with the world's best.

So it's not for lack of patriotism, shall we say, that some domestic cars continue to receive heavy criticism. Rather, it's because they just don't measure up to the best in the world, as competent as they may be on their own merits. The MKS is a perfect example. It's not a bad car, but the bar has been set incredibly high at its elevated price point, and as I said, a gussied-up Ford Taurus really isn't going to get the job done. Correction: it doesn't get the job done, as I discovered when I drove the car all over SoCal last weekend.

We drive pretty much every car on the road, so we have an excellent idea of how any given model ranks within its segment. The MKS ranks at or near the bottom of the midlevel luxury sedan segment -- not because it's an American car riding on a modified outdated Swedish platform, but simply because it's just not as good as any number of competitively priced rivals (Genesis, TL, ES350/GS350, ***American car alert*** CTS, etc.).

Of course, biases -- understood as a collection of impressions from past experience that influence our opinions -- are an inescapable part of being human. That's necessarily how we operate: we gather impressions, test them against new data, and modify those impressions as required. Are some humans slower than others to loosen their grip on outdated impressions? Naturally. But as I hinted above, most automotive journalists (in my experience) are actually biased TOWARD domestic automakers, insofar as we actively want them to make unequivocally competitive products that Americans can be proud of. This has started to happen in recent years, but there also continue to be missteps, such as the MKS. It's our job to report successes and failures alike, and I think overall we're admirably "fair and balanced," if you will, in doing so.

-Sadlier

This is a nothing log entry. Don't get a sunroof and you won't have a button to worry about. Ignorance is bliss.

I agree. This doesn't surprise me at all being that it's just a Saturn.

My car has a two button sunroof design and my dad's Impala has a one button design like the Aura. Trust me, there's no preference in operation. My car has one touch vent/open but you must hold to close. The Impala has one touch vent and then press again for one touch open. My parents have never seemed to complain about it and neither have I. Basically, if it's your car, you will be fine. It's important to remember than most people who buy cars don't go around driving dozens of models in their spare time so they easily acclimate to their specific vehicle.

Here's the mesh deflector highlighted as a luxury feature in the Audi Q7. "A mesh sunroof deflector enables low noise build-up when driving with the roof open so as not to spoil the mood."

http://microsites.audiusa.com/technology/q7_sunroof.html

Can someone explain if these things are really beneficial as they are showing up in more and more cars? It would be nice if someone had an answer that was informative without all the irrelevant accusations against Edmunds, other posters, carmakers, etc.

On my Aura I have the panoramic sun roof which came with a sunroof dial ala VW with 4 different positions and a separate one touch button to close the sunshade. So Saturn has shown it knows how to make sunroof controls in line with currently produced cars, why that hasn't carried over to the rest of the line I do not know.

""Why is it that some many of the people on this site who go on real rants have such poor grammar? Under-age, I guess?"

Umm, look who is talking. Some many???"

haha a combination of lack of edit feature and typing too quickly.

Man, one post about a switch and suddenly we're at the Motor Trend forums.

Josh, your post confirmed what I have always suspected: Most journalists want the American industry to succeed. Almost every headline about any recent GM offering is bursting with some sort "Go America" parade. The G8 is constantly touted as a 5-series for half the price. The CTS-V is hailed as an M5 killer. The ZR-1 eats Lambos for breakfast! It's almost like the journalists writing the headlines can't wait to type the words. My experience has been that people see what they want to see. If you want to see bias, you'll probably be able to scrape some off of second-place comparison finishes and blog entries about switches, but the truth is that most American editors grew up driving around in Mopar muscle, not Japanese econoboxes. They want those days back. The British press wants to see Jaguar and Aston Martin succeed. The American press wants to see the big three succeed.

SadButTrue: Twice you've referred to the MKS as a "gussied-up Ford Taurus".

First, you know that's an exaggeration. They may both be based on the same platform, but there's more to it than just being "gussied-up".

Second, is it a bad thing? What's so wrong with the Taurus that one wouldn't want to use it as a basis for other vehicles? I've not experienced the Taurus, but I have experienced the (new) Sable. It's one very impressive vehicle. I really don't understand why a Taurus hasn't made it to the IL log term fleet.

I think we've beaten the mesh thing pretty well. Being mesh isn't a bad thing. In fact, it can be quite beneficial. Hardly a gripe about the vehicle.

On the sunroof:

One touch close may be nice, but it's dangerous! The soccer mom with kids bouncing around the car, can't ensure that junior's fingers aren't going to be in the way.

One touch open is nice, but hardly a deal breaker. When opening the sunroof, patience is easy (it takes two seconds). When closing, patience is shorter.

legacygt - As an Aura owner, I can say that yes, the mesh deflector does help with wind noise. I know this because I've pushed it down (while in motion) and there was a huge difference in both noise and wind entering the cabin.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to comprehend the purpose of a mesh-style deflector:

1) The perforation lets some air through while blocking (or deflecting) most of it. However, by letting through a portion of the air (say 30% arbitrarily), it decreases the amount of air moving OVER the deflector. Air moving over the deflector (or most anything else) causes noise. This is why the noise is reduced and a minimal amount of air enters the cabin. I think the mesh gives you the best of both worlds in this regard, as opposed to a hard plastic deflector.

2) The fact that it is mesh means that it is easily collapsible and takes up minimal space when not in use. This is as opposed a hard plastic deflector, which may or may not need additional, possibly complicated, steps in order to retract.

The Aura's wind-deflector system is quite simple, yet very effective. The mesh deflector is spring-loaded and is always under tension. When the sunroof is closed, the roof sits on the deflector and collapses it; when it is opened, it slides off of the spring-loaded deflector and it pops up.

I hope this helps. As for one-touch opening/closing, holding the button in to close it is kind of annoying, but that's because I'm lazy. I have no problem with the one-touch vent, two touch open approach however.

I don't know how many of you have done it already, but I priced out a G8 GT using the new GM employee pricing deal.

I'm fairly tempted...if it was combined with 0% interest, I'd be there right now. But that's just me being greedy.

To be honest, my first thought was "God, why does GM keep offering all these incentive deals every year....it just depresses the resale value of these cars."

But then I realized, for once, GM is doing this in August for 08 models. That's not so bad (of course, they are offering it on 09 models as well).

Personally, I want American car companies to succeed as well. But I don't want them to succeed by Pontiac building a "5-series fighter"....I want them to succeed by building exciting cars on their own, like the G8. A RWD, big engined, but decent-gas-mileaged, larger car with seriously sporting intentions while not sacrificing much in the way of everyday driveability.

The CTS, a genuine luxury car with a great price and a great all around package.

The Malibu....a better car, IMHO, than the current camry (which is the best seller).

The corvette - distinctly american, awesome performance, great price. Why buy a 265 HP Boxster for 45k when you can get a 400 HP Vette? :) (Ok, I still love the Porsche more).

I want Ford to bring more of their european models over too.

Chrysler probably needs to go bankrupt though.IMO.

Anyway, ramble off.

Joe

I think the so-called import bias is grossly over-exaggerated by posters on this forum. As was pointed out, Edmunds staff don't normally stoop to a low enough level to respond. Its nice to see a response from an Edmunds staffer - not that it will help - those who rant about the import bias will never stop. GM could be praised in every post, but it still wouldn't be enough. Having a chip on the shoulder must make for a tough life.

Not to take the conversation too far off track, but Joe, interesting thought on the G8. I've been looking at sport compacts in the mid-20's, but I really (really!) like the G8. The only thing holding me back is the lack of a manual gearbox. Boo. Paddles for the auto would help a little, but God help me, I'll always love three pedals.

Yeah, I was thinking about it today and a 3-pedal arrangement is still a must with me....especially with all that torque, it's much more pleasant to drive a good manual transmission.

I even love the oil pressure gauge, albeit I don't like it's 1980's execution.

I'm going to finally get off my butt and go test drive one next week.

Joe

Is there bias at Edmunds? Probably some. There always will be some when you have human beings evaluating vehicles. Overall Edmunds reviews seem to be pretty impartial though.

In this case though it's worth pointing out that the post is critical of two vehicles (Aura, MKS) for having a mesh wind deflector. Looking back at the long-term test blog for the Audi Q7, I see no such criticism. Maybe it's a pro-import, Anti-American bias. Maybe the overall quality of the vehicle would make one consider the mesh on the Q7 to be the latest in techno luxury while the same item on the GM or Lincoln is reminiscent of gym shorts. Whatever the case, I hope that Edmunds is not letting brand cache (or lack thereof) influence its vehicle comments.

"I think the so-called import bias is grossly over-exaggerated by posters on this forum. As was pointed out, Edmunds staff don't normally stoop to a low enough level to respond. Its nice to see a response from an Edmunds staffer - not that it will help - those who rant about the import bias will never stop. GM could be praised in every post, but it still wouldn't be enough. Having a chip on the shoulder must make for a tough life."

I couldn't agree with you more. It is greatly exaggerated, and as sabastian mentioned above, if you want to see bias, you will see bias.

Well said, Josh. Honesty should win the day, but my cynical side says your well-reasoned response will fall on deaf ears.

legacygt,

I wasn't here when the Q7 was in the stable. The Aura is the second car in which I've noticed the mesh wind deflector; the MKS is the first. I would think it was cheesy even if it showed up on a Ferrari, but as I said before, it's definitely functional, and now I'm curious as to how widespread this trend is/will be.

brn,

Regarding the MKS, if you drive a Taurus and an MKS back to back (as I did at a Ford event recently), you'll notice that they have a very similar feel on the road. They also have identical 112.9-inch wheelbases, the same elevated H-point, and the same long/soft brake pedal. The MKS' V6 is slightly larger than the Taurus', but somehow it sounds coarser in this application than in either the Mazda 6 or CX-9 (maybe because one expects a bit more in a $40k+ luxury car). Like the Taurus, the MKS has a ride that's too firm given its prodigious body roll in corners.

In short, the Taurus isn't exactly a work of art in the first place, and the MKS isn't much better. But it should be much, MUCH better given the competition at its asking price.

-Sadlier

"P.s. 1487 - I've seen that same grade of plastic used in a fair number of GM products....and I think it looks like a Pre-Skool grade plastic. I find it cheap in the G35 cupholders as well. How does that make me ridiculous?"

Joe,

Please stop trying to determine which plastic pieces are cheap and which are not. YOu can't tell and neither can anyone else. Sunroof buttons in all cars are small pieces of hard plastic. Nothing more and nothing less. You have no proof that the component in the AUra is cheaper to procure than a comparable button in a Camry, Accord or Mercedes Benz. For all we know these brands might all use the same supplier. It's a global industry you know.

"In short, the Taurus isn't exactly a work of art in the first place, and the MKS isn't much better. But it should be much, MUCH better given the competition at its asking price. "

The MKS and Taurus have the same relationship as the Camry and ES350. As far as I know those two cars have been doing just fine in the marketplace. I think we all know that two cars on the same platform will drive in a similar manner. That doesn't mean the MKS is simply a Taurus with a new grille as you imply. You also failed to mention the Taurus/MKS are based on a Volvo platform. I didn't remember anyone saying the S80 feels and drives like a gussied up Taurus. You apparently have preconceived notions about the MKS and it appears that the car was doomed in your eyes from day one.

Sad, again I've dealt the Sable (which probably would qualify as a gussied up Taurus) and I had a very very different impression. For a car that can be had in the low 20's, nothing can touch it. It's competition (Avalon?) is much more expensive.

Anyway, I do appreciate your feedback on your experience. I'd still like to see the vehicle in the fleet and get a better idea as to what others might experience. Yuu and I seem to have different points of view.

sabastian,

Your post about the press being generally super patriotic and pro-GM is utter nonsense. What the heck would you expect the press to write about a 638hp Vette or a 556hp CTS that beats the M5 around the Ring? Praising great products doesn't indicate the press is "pulling" for GM or any other American brand. If you want to maintain any credibility I would hope any logical person would show some enthusiasm about world class products debuted by GM. That doesn't mean those same writers generally like GM or feel that GM products are competitive with products engineered by the genius Japanese. I was on another site when someone stated something that should be reiterated- most cars in the 70s and 80s werent that great. Those who embrace revisionist history (typically pro import types) pretend that the Japanese cars sold 30 years ago were state of the art machines that were very desirable. From the late 80s until the late 90s or so the Japansese were pulling ahead in design, handling, etc. BUt that window is coming to a close and the new products out of GM (and Ford to a lesser extent) are wholly competitive, period. Unfortunately too many regular folks and journalists can't seem to accept it's 2008 and 1988. As a car buyer in 2008 I really could care less about how much better Honda/Toyota were 10 or 20 years ago. I am only concerned about how manufacturers are competing for my dollars today.

1487,

I didn't mention the Volvo platform?

Hmm. Let's check on that.

"The MKS ranks at or near the bottom of the midlevel luxury sedan segment -- not because it's an American car riding on a modified outdated Swedish platform, but simply because it's just not as good as any number of competitively priced rivals (Genesis, TL, ES350/GS350, ***American car alert*** CTS, etc.)."

That's from my lengthy comment above on import bias and such, to which numerous people have responded since. Read it; maybe you'll like it.

As you may know, the Ford D3 platform is actually a dumbed-down version of the previous-generation S80 platform, employing some steel components in place of that old Volvo P2 platform's aluminum. Of course, that's irrelevant when you're behind the wheel, which is why I've been focusing on how the MKS actually drives (poorly relative to rivals).

Brn,

It would be interesting if we had an MKS in the LT fleet. But personally I would prefer to see something like the new Camaro, which on paper at least looks like a thoroughly competitive car. I respect your opinion of the Sable, but if you drove the MKS back-to-back with its competitors, I don't think you'd be impressed.

-Sadlier

1487 - A quote from you, "Please stop trying to determine which plastic pieces are cheap and which are not. YOu can't tell and neither can anyone else. Sunroof buttons in all cars are small pieces of hard plastic. Nothing more and nothing less. You have no proof that the component in the AUra is cheaper to procure than a comparable button in a Camry, Accord or Mercedes Benz. "

I'm sorry, but I CAN determine which pieces LOOK cheap...which is what I've been saying. And yes, that sunroof button LOOKS cheap to me. And yes, people are entitled to say what LOOKS cheap to them. It's called subjectivity, and even you are entitled to your opinion.

Maybe next time you say you like your Aura I'll say, "You can't like it and neither can anyone else". That's about the equivalent of what you just said to me.

You are right though that I don't know the price of the piece of plastic. But I'll tell you what, if GM paid the same price for that sunroof button as the price paid for the button in my 06 Civic SI, then GM was ripped off.

Vice versa, if Honda paid as much for the plastic door-pull pieces they employed as GM did in the Aura, than Honda was ripped off.

I don't like to see cheap looking plastic used anywhere visible in a car. And I see it in that button, like I see it in most of the current gen toyota camry, like I see it on my civic's door pull, like I see it inside of the G35's interior cupholders.

If I was edmunds, I would take a picture of the Aura's cupholders and say "What the heck is this randomly shaped space in the cupholder area doing?"

Seen here: http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/15/0,,i=156683&,00.jpg

Joe

"But then I realized, for once, GM is doing this in August for 08 models. That's not so bad (of course, they are offering it on 09 models as well)."

Most of their large incentive programs are designed to clear out cars from the current model year. Toyota and Honda and everyone else does the same.

"Its nice to see a response from an Edmunds staffer - not that it will help - those who rant about the import bias will never stop. GM could be praised in every post, but it still wouldn't be enough. Having a chip on the shoulder must make for a tough life."

Doug,

You should try reading thoroughly before offering derisive replies. You state your opinion about the nonexistence of bias but offer no reasoning behind your position. You are basically saying there isnt any bias because you personally agree with the opinions offered by the staffers and because anyone who disagrees has a "chip on their shoulder". Those are not substantive reasons at all. If I ever claim bias I clearly state why that is the case. Most of the time no one has any logical rebuttal but there are plenty of folks who start screaming about "GM fanboys" or other unrelated nonsense. If you think you can explain away the accusations of bias than you should do so. Simply insulting the people you don't agree with doesn't prove anyting.

joefrompa - That is commonly referred to as a "change holder". Each side is a different shape to accomodate nickels, dimes and quarters.

Josh,

What I love about your condescending rant is that you pretend that all of the automotive press speaks with one voice. That is a crock and I believe even you know that. Then again, I often get the impression that IL staffers dont confer with other auto journalists or care about their opinions. You state unequivocally that the MKS is totally uncompetitive and is one of the worst luxury cars in its class. That's cool, except for the fact that other reviewers haven't said that. Everything I have read about the car has given me the impression that its a roomy, technologically advanced, reasonably balanced (for it's size) andunique looking luxury car. Its not a SPORTS SEDAN but its a fine luxury car. You seem to be mad at the MKS for not being a BMW wannabe sports luxury sedan. You gave absolutely zero objective reasons why the car isnt competitive. It has the power, styling and luxury features expected of a $38k car while offering more space than nearly any competitor and you say its nothing more than a gussied up Taurus that is out of step with its competitors.

Your statement about secretly rooting for domestic cars is laughable. YOu say the Malibu was cheered until the press (or is that just you?) realized that its just competitive sedan and not a world beater. Simple question: which car in the family sedan class is a world beater? It certainly isnt the camry. I'm sure you and your coworkers would say the Accord since you are so smitten by that car but to the more objective amongst us the Accord is a decent, but not benchmark vehicle. It is impossible for ANY car to totally blow away its competition in such a competitive segment. Even those who worship the Accord have to admit the new 6 looks to be even better only a year after the Accord debuted. Why do people like yourself expect miracles from GM and Ford than even Toyota and Honda can't deliver? On an objective basis the Malibu is just as good of a car as the camry and Accord. That was true when it came out last year and it's true in August 2008. I can honestly say that any one who is still preaching the mantra of "they have a long way to go" after seeing and driving cars like the G8, CTS, Fusion, 300, C6, STS, lambda crossovers, Cobalt SS, etc. is out of touch with reality. I would love to see all of this spectacular world beating engineering that you see every time you step into a RAV4, Yaris, Camry or Accord.

"Your post about the press being generally super patriotic and pro-GM is utter nonsense."

Yeah, because editors that watched the American auto industry choke and die during the 70's and 80's would never want to see the good ole days come back. What was I thinking? Ever read Karl's blog?

"I was on another site when someone stated something that should be reiterated- most cars in the 70s and 80s werent that great."

Exactly right. The original M3, Golf GTI, Saab 99 Turbo, and Audi Quattro were all terrible and in no way iconic or ground breaking. Just because this country forgot how to make cars, doesn't mean the rest of the world did.

"Unfortunately too many regular folks and journalists can't seem to accept it's 2008 and 1988."

Yeah it's not like the newest (and genuinely good) GM products are making C&D's 10-Best or anything.

"You should try reading thoroughly before offering derisive replies. You state your opinion about the nonexistence of bias but offer no reasoning behind your position. You are basically saying there isnt any bias because you personally agree with the opinions offered by the staffers and because anyone who disagrees has a "chip on their shoulder"."

1487: Comments like the one I just highlighted above are the reason I have been making a conscious effort to stay out of these Aura/GM vs Import battles. In your typical fashion, you pull something out of thin air and just claim it as fact. I read this site on a daily basis, just as much as you. You have no authority whatsoever to suggest that my opinion of a bias (or lack thereof) is because I'm not 'reading thoroughly.

I happen to agree with the IL staff on this particular matter. I'm also pretty sure that this one blog topic doesn't decide the existence of an import bias at Edmund's. So, you're comment that I am "basically saying there isnt any bias because [I] personally agree with the opinions offered by the staffers" is ludicrous. If you look back at recent posts of mine, you will see that I claim ALL THE TIME to like American vehicles. Of course, this would require reading (as opposed to just firing off a 3-post salvo).

Keep in mind that just because I like many US vehicle doesn't mean I will go out of my way to invalidate EVERY single negative sounding statement about the American auto-industry - that would be silly, wouldn't it?

"joefrompa - That is commonly referred to as a "change holder". Each side is a different shape to accomodate nickels, dimes and quarters."

Thanks for explaining that. If he ever sat in the car in the flesh some of his concerns might well disappear.

"That's from my lengthy comment above on import bias and such, to which numerous people have responded since. Read it; maybe you'll like it."

I hadn't gotten to that comment when I responded. Obviously.

"As you may know, the Ford D3 platform is actually a dumbed-down version of the previous-generation S80 platform, employing some steel components in place of that old Volvo P2 platform's aluminum. Of course, that's irrelevant when you're behind the wheel, which is why I've been focusing on how the MKS actually drives (poorly relative to rivals)."

I will try to explain my position as concisely as I can since you still seem confused about what I'm saying. I never said the MKS was a sports sedan. If your only criteria for evaluating a luxury sedan are related to how a car tackles apexes or mimmicks BMW steering feel the MKS is likely as bad as you claim. To my knowledge Lincoln has never said the MKS was a sports sedan and thus it shoudlnt be evaluated as such. I dont drive cars for a living but I am smart enough to know several of the MKS's competitors are not sporty. The ES350 and Lucerne come to mind off the top of my head. You are saying the car is a failure because it doesn't handle as well as cars it's not targeting. That makes no sense and is a classic example of the bias I am talking about. Most auto reviweres (you included apparently) are Hondaphiles and BMWphiles and thus every car they drive is measure by how that car relates to a BMW or Honda. By your logic the MKS is crap because it doesnt match the handling of your favorite luxury cars which are likely sports sedans such as those sold by BMWS. Guess what, not every American is in search of a sports sedan. if they were Toyota would be a fraction of what they are today. None of the top 5-10 selling cars in America are sporty. The best selling car in the US is widely viewed as one of the softest cars in its class. Point being the MKS is a fine luxury car for those looking for a comfortable, state of the art traditional luxury car in the vein of the ES350. If an MKS buyer wanted BMW they would likely buy one. UNlike you it seems that most who reviewed the MKS tried to rate the car based on its merits and it's likely competition. This is probably why most of those reviewers had a better opinion of the vehicle.

Since you are taking time to slum with us regular posters I would love to get your insiders perspective on what you find so great and "premium" about mainstream import brand vs the recent crop of domestic vehicles. I truly do not get it and when I got to the autoshow I am lost as to why people like you are in such awe of regular cars that just happened to be made by Honda or Toyota. I named several premium features on the Aura that arent found on its competitors and you (nor your fervent supporters) failed to comment. Can you explain to me why you are such an expert on domestic car cost cutting and half assing but cannot seem to notice similar efforts on import cars? if you can explain this to me I might be convinced that there is no bias.

"I hadn't gotten to that comment when I responded. Obviously."

And here in lies the problem with you 1487. You don't read, you don't understand, you just flame.

Just for kicks, I just reviewed the blogs from the editors for the Silverado, Tundra, Aura and Accord to see if there might be a hint of bias.

I broke down the categories into Negative, Positive and Neutral.

Aura 22 Negative
10 Positive
6 Neutral

Accord 9 Negative
17 Positive
6 Neutral

Silverado 14 Positive
10 Negative
10 Neutral

Tundra 14 Positive
5 Negative
14 Neutral

Quite often for the Aura, a positive entry would be offset by many negative comments.

It was interesting to note that the Silverado was critiqued for its mileage, but often it got better mileage than the Tundra, but the Tundra was excused for its mileage.

The Aura was heavily criticized for its power, but the Accord which is slower was praised(by quite a few) for its drivetrain.

The Accord was praised for its handling, but the Aura has been shown to handle better in tests ???? Bias, maybe.

Overall conclusions, editors do not like the Aura at all or very little.

As SadButTrue stated, the Malibu got a lot of iniital good press, but now they are backing off, why?

Based on this quick examination, imports are liked much more than domestics, often times the domestic is criticized for things that are explained away with the import.

Editors appear to really really like the Tundra.

The Accord is very good according to the editors, but not perfect.

I was surprised by how many positives for the Silverado, but I might have been counting negatives and put those in the wrong category :)

Overall, a person could look at these statistics as proof of an import bias.

The problem is that the editors make the Aura seem like just an average car, but if it is, then the Accord is just average as well.

Case in point, Aura positive reviews are few and far between, but even then there is some sort of criticism. Accord positive reviews are just that, positive.

Case in point, no real harsh criticisms of the road noise of the Accord. If the Aura had that it would have been the topic of at least 2-3 blogs by the editors.

Yet we hear how noisy the CTS is? Come on this is what those of us domestic defenders are talking about. Don't most midsize automobile purchasers want quiet, then why isn't the Accord criticized everywhere as being noisy??

Maybe the Aura got more negative comments because the editors like it less? Not all cars are created equal.

On a more general note: If folks are dissatisfied with IL's reporting, why continue to read (and complain) about it? I'm sure you'll find the Motor Trend forums to me much more patriotic.

1487,

You put it best yourself: "You should try reading thoroughly before offering derisive replies."

Sample screed from 1487:

"You gave absolutely zero objective reasons why the [MKS] isnt competitive."

What I actually wrote:

"[The Taurus and MKS] have identical 112.9-inch wheelbases, the same elevated H-point, and the same long/soft brake pedal. The MKS' V6 is slightly larger than the Taurus', but somehow it sounds coarser in this application than in either the Mazda 6 or CX-9 (maybe because one expects a bit more in a $40k+ luxury car). Like the Taurus, the MKS has a ride that's too firm given its prodigious body roll in corners...

The MKS ranks at or near the bottom of the midlevel luxury sedan segment -- not because it's an American car riding on a modified outdated Swedish platform, but simply because it's just not as good as any number of competitively priced rivals (Genesis, TL, ES350/GS350, ***American car alert*** CTS, etc.)."

So let's recap.

"You gave absolutely zero objective reasons why the MKS isn't competitive"...

1. long/soft brake pedal
2. coarser V6 sound than in a $25k family sedan and $30k+ crossover.
3. a back-asswards ride/handling balance -- firm with lots of body roll.

For more, tune in to the upcoming IL road test of the MKS, as well as my own Edmunds Test Drive, which should be going up before long.

Sample screed #2 by 1487: "By your logic the MKS is crap because it doesnt match the handling of your favorite luxury cars which are likely sports sedans such as those sold by BMWS."

This is a complete fabrication, as you would know if you had read my comments closely.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and interest in our blog, but no one appreciates false (and utterly humorless) accusations like the ones noted here.

-Sadlier

Sabastian, excellent point. It's slightly unfortunate that it needs to be spelled out, but, you're right of course. If Domestic Car X has 60% negative comments, and Foreign Car Y has 30% negative comments, it doesn't necessarily follow that we're biased against domestic cars. We don't follow the old "Fairness Doctrine" of reporting around here, i.e., "Here are some pros, here are some cons, but we have no opinion on the matter." Rather, it's our job to tell you what's cool and what sucks, and naturally, some cars are cooler than others. If all cars were 50/50 positive-negative, you'd be bored, and we'd be shirking our responsibility to tell you what's what.

"Yeah, because editors that watched the American auto industry choke and die during the 70's and 80's would never want to see the good ole days come back. What was I thinking? Ever read Karl's blog?"

The position of most journalists as far as I can tell is "they are getting what they deserve" with respect to the American auto industry. While certain cars like the Vette get a free pass due to being american icons, by and large the consensus seems to be that american automakers are lacking when it comes to design, engineering and innovation. Nevermind the fact that reality doesn't back that up. Even I accept the questionable premise that all of these people are closet Detroit fans the fact of the matter is that most cars today (at least within a certain price class) are relatively similar. There are no huge differences in quality, quietness, fuel efficinecy, etc. The differentiators today are unique features (Sync for example), pricing and styling. If these Big 3 lovers can't admit that the gap is small now when will they ever be able to admit it? We have Josh here telling us that Lincoln's best car since the LS is totally uncompetitive even though it looks pretty good and has more technology than virtually any other car under $50k. On top of that Lincoln has already promised a 340hp version with decent fuel economy. What else could Lincoln have done other than badge the car as a Lexus?

"Rather, it's our job to tell you what's cool and what sucks, and naturally, some cars are cooler than others. If all cars were 50/50 positive-negative, you'd be bored, and we'd be shirking our responsibility to tell you what's what."

Who is asking you guys not to render opinions? The point is we'd like to see see the same level of nitpicking for all brands. That isnt the case. In a recent blig we thoroughly reviwed the import slanted test fleet that IL has had over the years. What is the reason for that? At one point KB said the fleet was mostly import because no competitive or interesting or new cars came out of Detroit and thus there was little reason to add domestic cars to the fleet. That's pretty interesting since the Vette or CTS-V were never long term cars. But there's plenty of room for exciting cars like the Fit, Rio, Civic GX and Lancer.

"And here in lies the problem with you 1487. You don't read, you don't understand, you just flame"

Well that just about sums it up. Thanks. If only I could be as profound as you are. If you believe my posts have no substance that reveals that you really aren't reading. You see "1487" and then you launch your supposedly witty counterattack.

"The problem is that the editors make the Aura seem like just an average car, but if it is, then the Accord is just average as well."

Why is that hard for some to understand?

"Maybe the Aura got more negative comments because the editors like it less? Not all cars are created equal.

On a more general note: If folks are dissatisfied with IL's reporting, why continue to read (and complain) about it? I'm sure you'll find the Motor Trend forums to me much more patriotic."

Your simple minded arguments never cease to amaze. Now you are arguing that any source that doesnt parrot the findings of the IL staffers is somehow inferior. I dont visit MT.com too often but I presume you are suggesting they dont dislike American models as much and therefore they are offering less than credible opinions. Therein lies the problem with people like yourself, you automatically associate domestic car bashing with objective journalism. So if anyone dares suggest than the average new domestic car is about as good as the average new import car they are obviously "patriotic" and bending the truth to reflect their views.

"1. long/soft brake pedal
2. coarser V6 sound than in a $25k family sedan and $30k+ crossover.
3. a back-asswards ride/handling balance -- firm with lots of body roll."

Josh,

You gave reasons, but they are hardly substantiated nor are they likely to be dealbreakers. I deal with numbers and proof. You say the V6 sounded bad but NONE of the other reviews I've seen mentioned that. Furthermore, without any dB readings to support your claim I am inclined to believe you were expecting the engine to be louded because its a Lincoln. When the car is fully road tested I will be sure to check the sound readings to see how it compares to V6 family sedans and other luxury cars. I don't think there's a single automaker today who doesnt know how to isolate engine noise. As for the ride, I have seen no criticism of the ride aside from the cars equipped with the 20" wheels. The handling has been called perfectly adequate for a large, heavy luxury car, if not a 1 series BMW. Lots of body roll compared to what? I bet it rolls less than the best selling ES350 and that's what really counts. MKS buyers are not cross shopping 335i's or G35's with the sport package. Compare the car to it's true rivals.

I find that brake pedal feel is very subjective and you will find varying opinions from car to car. The 3 has longer brake travel than my car (or most GM cars I've driven) but the press doesnt seem to have an issue with that. Again, I think your problem is with the fact that its Lincoln based on the Taurus- even though Lexus does the same thing with the ES350. A competitive luxury car needs more than a stiff brake pedal. What about the styling? Materials? transmission? Engine power? tech features? Seat comfort? As far as I can tell the car stacks up pretty well in those departments. Sorry, but I dont see how a distinctively styled, large, high tech, well equipped Lincoln is totally uncompetitive. Especially when it's actually done well in it's first full month on the market.

"Sample screed #2 by 1487: "By your logic the MKS is crap because it doesnt match the handling of your favorite luxury cars which are likely sports sedans such as those sold by BMWS."

This is a complete fabrication, as you would know if you had read my comments closely."

My comments are based on the fact that you obviously are not comparing the car to realistic targets. Period. Tell me how the car handles vs the Es and Lucerne and Avalon. You didnt call the car crap, but calling a brand new Lincoln uncompetitive and a backwards step for American automaking is pretty much the same thing. You are arguing semantics.

"If all cars were 50/50 positive-negative, you'd be bored, and we'd be shirking our responsibility to tell you what's what."

YOu don't get it. No one is asking for pro American car reviews. What they are asking for is the same standards across the board. I clearly called out examples of GM spending money on features in the Aura and asked why arent Japanese cars called to task for not offering such features. No response yet. Your inferrence is that you dont complain about foreign cars as much because they offer less to complain about. Objectively speaking, IL's 10 months with the Aura has offered few legit complaints. At the end of the test period you will tell us how the car is an also ran but a quick review of your complaints show that most times people were grasping at straws. At one point the car was said to be no better than riding the bus. Other complaints centered around hard plastic (even though other cars have it), sunroof buttons, too much power from the V6, a center console that moves if you apply 50lbs of force, etc. If you are going to call the Aura wholly inferior to the Almighty Accord and every other Japanese sedan we should be given some tangible, relevant reasons why the car is not competitive. The Aura test is a classic example of a car simply living up to preconceived notions. You werent enthusiastic about the car when you bought it and you have spent months reinforcing your opinion that the car is an overhyped American applilance that was undeserving of awards.

I'm all for criticisms that truly relate to the ownership experience but it is amazing to me that so few of the blog posts here have offered any such information. It's also disappointing that your staffers have to struggle to come up with any accolades for such a nice car. One thing is for sure, the market disagrees with your dim assessment since sales are up 25% or so this year.

You wonder why people think the critiques are biased when we have to endure complaints about mesh wind defectors in the Aura, but few entries about the Accord's odd styling, smallest in class trunk, disappointing mileage in spite of VCM, trunk hinges, lack of manumatic shifting, button crazy interior, higher than average road noise, being down one gear vs competitors, gaps between dash and door panel, etc. The proof of objectivity isnt in your statements- no one proudly claims to be biased. It's all about what you actually show the reading public. Contrary to the straw man arguments offered by my overzealous critics, my position has nothing to do with any claimed perfection of the Aura or American cars in general. It has to do with the indisputable fact that the Aura is no more flawed than its much vaunted competitors.

Still waiting for the list of attributes that makes the Accord a "world beater" and that the Malibu lacks. It certainly isnt style or handling. Do tell.

I hereby pronounce 1487 incorrigible and utterly incapable of admitting he's wrong. E.g.,...

"Yeah, sorry man, I accused you of expecting the MKS to be a BMW and hating on it because it's not, but yeah, you totally didn't do that, so my bad."

"Yeah, I do often speak authoritatively about how cars drive even though I often haven't driven the cars in question. Sorry about that, that's pretty lame."

"Yeah, I often don't read comments closely or even at all before replying with wild accusations that turn out to be false. Sorry man. That's not cool of me."

It's a trait he shares with many successful political leaders through history.

However, unlike said leaders, he does boost our comment numbers significantly.

I would also like to throw out the hypothesis that 1487 is a computer program.

Or Bob Lutz's secretary.

1487 and Joe Frompa keep up the good work.

I really enjoy the comments from both of you.

I find both of you to be fair.

Keep up the good work. I am awaiting SadButTrue's response. You made many great points. I have read every car magazine out there, and all are pretty much in agreement.

The Accord is good, but not what it was. Or maybe, the competition has gotten better. However, if you look at Edmunds, the Accord is very, very good, but the Aura is not.

However, the Aura out accelerates it, out handles it in most handling tests, out brakes it, and gets comparible mileage?????

Yet Edmunds complains non stop about the Aura, and is almost always positive, but not always, with the Accord, often in areas the Aura is much better than the Accord is, ie acceleration, braking, handling.

As 1487 stated, I am waiting to hear when the Accord should be majorily criticized for road noise, even many Accord owners acknowledge that.

Nothing from Edmunds, but wow about the CTS.

Since the Accord only has a 5 speed automatic(with no manumatic option) I would have thought their would be constant criticism about the archaic outdated transmission. Nothing at all, but the Aura is criticized about the logic of its manumatic????

Remember how critical in the past all auto reviewers were about GM and their old style 4 speed auto? Never heard the end of it. Where is the outcry now about Honda and it falling behind?

No where to be found. Oh well, the good news is that I get to live in San Diego.

Alright, I'm back by popular demand. First of all, I have to applaud 1487 for some incredibly inspired rhetoric. Check it out:

"Contrary to the straw man arguments offered by my overzealous critics, my position has nothing to do with any claimed perfection of the Aura or American cars in general. It has to do with the indisputable fact that the Aura is no more flawed than its much vaunted competitors."

Yikes! Spoken like a true 2,500-year-old rhetorician. Now there's a man that only a Roman could love. Unless he really is a computer program, in which case, substitute "computer program" for "man."

Seriously, doesn't that first sentence sound computer-generated? I mean, "my overzealous critics"...did he really say that?

But, alright, Aurakr, what did you want me to respond to here? 1487's ramblings about "Accord overrated and under-criticized, Aura underrated and over-criticized"? Sure. I'll take a stab.

I actually agree with most of the specific Accord gripes. Odd styling -- check (see my critical post about the protruding headlights). Disappointing mileage despite VCM -- absolutely. Trunk hinges -- yup, they're cheap alright; my parents' old '94 Accord EX had hydraulic struts, so it's weird that the '08 doesn't. Higher-than-average road noise -- right on, a typical Honda trait and a good subject for a future post. Lack of manumatic shifting -- yes, this is disappointing, and Mr. Romans has posted about it, just as Mr. Clarke and Mr. Jacobs have called out the button-crazy center stack (let's hear it one more time for 1487's close reading skills!).

A lot of what's going on here is that the Aura -- unlike the Accord -- usually ends up in the hands of people like me, who are low on the totem pole and thus have more spare time in which to put up nitpicking blog posts than higher-ranking folks. But why do we so rarely get to drive the Accord, you might wonder? Quite simply, the Accord's always in high demand because has a premium feel inside and through most of its controls (especially steering; brakes are an exception) that the Aura can't match. It's like two pairs of jeans. Sure, they both have the same number of pockets, and they'll cover your legs with equal competence, and so on...but if one pair feels nicer to most people, well, that's just the way it is. Despite all the flaws acknowledged above, the Accord is the nicer pair of jeans -- and that's just the way it is.

Anyway, I'm usually not able to wade into the fray like this, primarily because I'm too busy guzzling Aura-flavored Haterade, but it's been fun y'all. Or perhaps should I say: "I have enjoyed addressing the straw man arguments offered by my overzealous critics."

-Sadlier

"Your simple minded arguments never cease to amaze. Now you are arguing that any source that doesnt parrot the findings of the IL staffers is somehow inferior..."

Wow. You took a two-line suggestion and just ran with it didn't you? I was simply suggesting that if you spent some time at the MT forums, you wouldn't have to spend as much time winning over...How did you put it?...'simple minded' folk like us. Honestly, how many pages a day do you type here?

"You gave reasons, but they are hardly substantiated nor are they likely to be dealbreakers. I deal with numbers and proof."

That's why he writes the reviews and you read them. Not the other way around. You have to drive these cars to really get a sense of what they are like. Cars aren't driven with spreadsheets and numbers. Every single one is designed with a specific idea of what it needs to be and how the designers want it to feel. For instance, the Cooper S, GTI, and Mazdaspeed 3 are all pretty evenly matched in terms of the numbers, but each one feels completely different from the others on the road (I'm speaking from actual experience). So to say that they are the same because they have similar performance or occupy the same space in the market would be insane. They're not the same...not even close.

"Quite simply, the Accord's always in high demand because has a premium feel inside and through most of its controls (especially steering; brakes are an exception) that the Aura can't match. It's like two pairs of jeans. Sure, they both have the same number of pockets, and they'll cover your legs with equal competence, and so on...but if one pair feels nicer to most people, well, that's just the way it is."

Well put! I like the jean analogy. Shopping cars 'by the numbers' can never tell the whole story.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/luxury_sedans/2009_lincoln_mks_awd_road_test

seems like someone forgot to tell C&D the MKS is a huge disappointment and a step backwards for American cars. Perhaps they are a little overzealous in their rooting for Ford?

Josh,

can you simply offer any explanation or justification for your positions on the Aura or MKS? That's all I'm asking. You are giving all kinds of sarcastic responses but you haven't addressed any of the points I've made. Since I am wrong and you apparently are right it should be rather easy for you to blow apart my accusations.

Still waiting.

I'm also confused as to why you believe I should be apologizing to you. Anyone who follows the automotive press knows that BMW, Honda and Mazda are generally held in the highest esteem. Your complaints about the MKS seem to center around it's lack of athleticism which to me suggests that if a car doesnt act like a BMW it's not worth driving or praising. The MKS isnt a BMW wannabe and shouldn't be evaluated as such. Not sure why you disagree with that.

As for your continued assertion that I don't read your posts I would like to point out (again) that I hadn't gotten to your Volvo post when I mentioned you not referring to the connection between the S80 and the MKS. In the comments I had read up until that point you had not mentioned the S80. When there are a lot of new responses it's hard to read every new response before posting. I was responding to what I had read up until that point.

Thanks for that link 1487. The article is complimentary to the MKS, which is nice to see. I have to say though, the tone in which the article is written makes it seem like it is aimed completely at a non-car enthusiast.

Now I remember why I like Edmunds.

Also, I can't believe 1487 is still asking for proof on the Aura and MKS. Josh has explained his position in several posts, but it falls on deaf ears.

"I would also like to throw out the hypothesis that 1487 is a computer program.

Or Bob Lutz's secretary."

what? Why dismiss my posts with silly comments such as the one above? I make it very clear why I make my claims. It's ridiculous to try and pass them off as blind fanboyism. Since you are an advocate for thoroughly readings posts I suggest you read my posts that outline my issues with the Aura.

Your excuses about why the Aura is so much worse than the Accord basically boil down to "its worse because I said so". Your dismissal of the Accord's flaws are emblematic of what I am talking about. Whatever flaws the Accord has are simply dismissed as trivial while any flaws in the Aura are potential deal breakers.

"Despite all the flaws acknowledged above, the Accord is the nicer pair of jeans -- and that's just the way it is. "

To you, but not to everyone. And before you mention sales numbers I think we should acknowledge that the average Accord buyer isnt a car enthusiast and has not test driven most of the Accord's competition. Ford sells a lot of F150s but that doesnt make it the best vehicle sold in America. Nothing about the accord's styling, handling, braking, ergonomics, quietness or powertrain places it far above the Aura. I base the worthiness of a vehicle on those traits. Just saying the Accord is better because "that's just the way it is" is a cop out answer provided when you have no objective basis for proving the Accord's supposed unquestionable superiority.

doug,

I dont even know where to begin. First of all it's sad that you dont read anything but Edmunds but that explains a lot about your positions. For the record, C&D is primarily focused on cars that are fun to drive. If you read the article (I assume you did) you know that the author stated that the MKS isnt a BMW but it's great at it's intended mission. The author acknowledged (cant see why you and Josh cant)that not all luxury car custmers are looking for BMW like traits and the MKS is the kind of car that appeals to such people.

Part of the reason I believe my statements about the MKS or any car are reasonable accurate is because I do try and check out different sources. C&D is very BMW centric but occasionally they show bursts of objectivity, usually in a road test or first drive.

"Also, I can't believe 1487 is still asking for proof on the Aura and MKS. "

He just outlined his "proof" for the Aura a few posts back. What are you talking about? Here is his "proof": "Quite simply, the Accord's always in high demand because has a premium feel inside and through most of its controls (especially steering; brakes are an exception) that the Aura can't match. " YOu are impressed by that detailed explanation? Everyone has different standards I suppose. In my book the proof of inferiority should be related to performance, features, refinement, styling, pricing, etc. But perhaps that's just me.

"Well put! I like the jean analogy. Shopping cars 'by the numbers' can never tell the whole story. "

Have you driven the Aura or Accord? I love it when people dismiss better performing cars with the "you cant shop by numbers" comments. The Aura just happens ot outperform the Accord in a few categories, but that isnt the only reason to consider the car. Sorry but I dont get how a car with superior styling, more features per dollar, a more advanced transmission, larger trunk, quieter ride, slightly better performance and a better warranty than an Accord is clearly inferior. I'm glad you and Josh are on the same page but I am lost as to how you can be so sure that the Accord is superior in every way.
I dont "shop by numbers" but I do notice that people who want to defend an established player that underperforms are quick to jump on that bandwagon when it's convenient. I'm sure if the Accord put up better numbers everyone would be quick to tout them however.

"Honestly, how many pages a day do you type here?"

In the average day? Probably a couple paragraphs. Unfortunately I feel compelled to respond when I read comments like yours. The more logical the posts in a given blog entry the less I write.

"You have to drive these cars to really get a sense of what they are like. Cars aren't driven with spreadsheets and numbers. "

Spare me. Typical excuse making offered by someone who wants to praise and underperforming car. WHen BMWs win tests and dominate the numbers the test authors are sure to mention that. Why do we even have performanc testing? If the value of a car is strictly determined by it's badge what is the point of having automotive reviews and test data? I can tell you that the mainstream import cars I have driven have not struck me as engineered to a much higher level than comparable domestics. My positions are based on test drives and what I read. I never said I base everything on magazine tests. Have you driven or owned the domestic models you bash?

"So to say that they are the same because they have similar performance or occupy the same space in the market would be insane. They're not the same...not even close."

What does that have to do with Accord and Aura? The two cars I am discussin are very close and MT ranked the Malibu (Aura close cousin) above the Accord V6 in COTY testing and a comparison test. The have similar weights, sizes, powertrains and handling characteristics. They do not feel totally different at all.

"They do not feel totally different at all."

Really? Have you driven the V6 Accord?

Hey Josh, IL got the Aura in July of last year. How come it's still around? Shouldn't its year be up by now?

The reason as to why the Honda has less negative posts is because it's been here for a shorter time too, and basically it's just not blatantly unfinished like the Saturn..

1)

"If you read the article (I assume you did) you know that the author stated that the MKS isnt a BMW but it's great at it's intended mission. The author acknowledged (cant see why you and Josh cant)that not all luxury car custmers are looking for BMW like traits and the MKS is the kind of car that appeals to such people."

This makes me laugh. Where did you get that I am not being supportive of the MKS? I made a point of said the article was very positive towards it. I haven't mentioned anything negative about it at all. I actually quite like the styling and features, but I haven't driven one. This is another case of your not reading, and then flaming. The comment I made supporting Josh was regarding the Aura vs Accord, not Aura being lumped together with MKS. Reading comprehension ftw.

2)
"First of all it's sad that you dont read anything but Edmunds"

You've been stalking my bookshelf and browsing history have you? If you haven't, then you have no authority to comment on what car websites/magazines I frequent. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't do my research in both articles and vehicle test driving.

3)

"If you read the article (I assume you did)"

If you'd read my comment, you would see that I read it. I stated that I did. s-l-o-w down and read.

4)
"I love it when people dismiss better performing cars with the "you cant shop by numbers" comments."

I'm not going to get back into you with the "drive by numbers" argument. We've had that one before, and I know we will never agree on it.

"In my book the proof of inferiority should be related to performance, features, refinement, styling, pricing, etc. "

You hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately, no reasonable system exists to quantify styling or refinement. Show me an index that rates fit and finish in a car? ...and don't say Consumer Reports.

An item like fit and finish is what gives a car that intangible bump above its competitors. I don't care for the Accord inside or out and I would never drive it, but I think its built wonderfully.

note: I realize I reneged on my comment above to not discuss 'shopping by the numbers'...my bad.

All interesting answers, but nobody has answered why Edmunds really likes the Accord, but Car and Drive and Motor Trend rated the Aura a better driving experience.

I agree you can't simply shop by numbers, however Edmunds appears to be the only ones still believing the Accord is better.

It appears many of the editors never ever gave the XR a chance. I could do that this weekend, too, drive an Accord with the mindset of I will not be impressed no matter what. That is what it looks like the editors at Edmunds did.

However, in that regard we will have to agree to disagree. No problem.

I will expect however, to hear from now on everytime the Accord is rated how gosh awful loud it is(road noise, and complaints everytime about Honda being way behind the curve on its transmissions, and how it has very disappointing fuel economy.

After hearing that for about 5 years straight from most all car evaluators(Edmunds, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, I guarantee Accord sales would drop.

Sort of how car reviewers have reviewed most domestic cars for years.

"The reason as to why the Honda has less negative posts is because it's been here for a shorter time too, and basically it's just not blatantly unfinished like the Saturn.."

Well if you said it I believe it because you are known to be very objective. If I ever want a legit opinion on a non Mazda you will be the LAST person I consult.

"Thanks for that link 1487. The article is complimentary to the MKS, which is nice to see. I have to say though, the tone in which the article is written makes it seem like it is aimed completely at a non-car enthusiast.

Now I remember why I like Edmunds. "

Doug, I can read. Can you? I was responding to your quote above by saying that the review clearly noted that not ever car buyer is looking for a BMW clone and the MKS hits it targets. C&D is very much dedicated to car enthusiasts but they admitted the MKS is a very good car if you have concerns other than best in class handling.

"You've been stalking my bookshelf and browsing history have you? If you haven't, then you have no authority to comment on what car websites/magazines I frequent. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't do my research in both articles and vehicle test driving. "

No the fact that you said that C&D's reviews are aimed towards non car enthusiasts told me all I need to know. C&D is a huge fan of BMW, manual transmissions, Hondas, high revving engines, sports cars, etc. Just like Edmunds. You seemed to be implying that you get more "credible" information here because edmunds is geared towards real car people. I dont see a huge difference in preferences between the two sources. There was a time when I thought C&D was harder on domestics than anyone but that could be changing now. They have been pretty enthusiastic about the Malibu, CTS, lambdas, MKS, Taurus, Fusion, etc. They actually liked the Ford 500 when most were afraid to admit it was a decent
car.

"I'm not going to get back into you with the "drive by numbers" argument. We've had that one before, and I know we will never agree on it."

what are we disagreeing on? I never endorsed the shopping by numbers. That was brought into the discussion by JOsh and Sabastian. I simply said the Aura is as good as the Accord with or without the numbers. It just so happens that the Aura beat the Accord in quite a few stats and that certainly doesnt hurt.

"After hearing that for about 5 years straight from most all car evaluators(Edmunds, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, I guarantee Accord sales would drop.

Sort of how car reviewers have reviewed most domestic cars for years."

You are on target as usual. Whatever shortcomings exist with a car that is well liked by the press are dismissed immediately. When american cars were down one gear to the Japanese you heard about it in every review. Now that the Accord is down a gear we get "5 gears seem more than adequate in this well sorted automatic". Excuses, plain and simple. Ford is constantly criticized for not offering more control over their autos and yet no one cares than the Accord lacks manumatic control. I just dont get how anyone is served by embracing medicrity just because it comes from Honda or Toyota.

"You hit the nail on the head."

Thanks. Since you agree with me I want to know how the Aura/Malibu are clearly inferior based on those criteria.

"An item like fit and finish is what gives a car that intangible bump above its competitors. I don't care for the Accord inside or out and I would never drive it, but I think its built wonderfully."

Have you closely examined the fit and finish of the Aura? You seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on the biased info you have gotten from this blog. The car has hard plastic below the metallic (or faux wood) trim on the dash. The trim parts on the dash do not line up well enough with the door trim. Aside from that the fit and finish is fine. And yes I have been inside the 2008 Accord. In terms of exterior build quality the Aura is as good or better than any Accord. Check it out for yourself. I have not been in one modern midsize car that has truly poor fit and finish. The camry has plenty of cheap materials, tons of seams and visible plastic flashing but even it isnt poorly assembled. what so many fail to accept is that many of the Accord's supposed trump cards are no longer exclusive. Its just an average car in a field where average is very good.

"No the fact that you said that C&D's reviews are aimed towards non car enthusiasts told me all I need to know."

My exact line was: "I have to say though, the tone in which the article is written makes it seem like it is aimed completely at a non-car enthusiast."

Note that the word "article" is singular. I was referring to this one particular article, not the entire organization. *shakes head with bemused look*

So, before you use one sentence to tell you "all you need to know", try re-reading and properly understanding?

"Doug, I can read. Can you? I was responding to your quote above by saying that the review clearly noted that not ever car buyer is looking for a BMW clone and the MKS hits it targets."

1487, your exact quote is below:

"The author acknowledged (cant see why you and Josh cant)that not all luxury car custmers are looking for BMW like traits and the MKS is the kind of car that appeals to such people."

What I am drawing issue with is the following: you stated that, and I quote, "all luxury car custmers are looking for BMW like traits and the MKS is the kind of car that appeals to such people". You specifically said that Sadlier and myself do not understand that fact.

I would like you to point out where I said something negative about the MKS, compared it to a BMW, or mentioned BMW w/ luxury buyers at all. As you have done so many times, you flamed me without basis. I seriously don't understand where you are coming from. Please, show me where I said that all luxury buyers want BMW like qualities?

For the 99th comment...

"I would like you to point out where I said something negative about the MKS, compared it to a BMW, or mentioned BMW w/ luxury buyers at all. As you have done so many times, you flamed me without basis. I seriously don't understand where you are coming from. Please, show me where I said that all luxury buyers want BMW like qualities?"

And herein lies the problem with reading or responding to 1487's posts. You will get absolutely nowhere. Doug, I completely understand where you are coming from. I read this whole exhaustive blog and agree with you 100%. 1487 makes arguments out of things people never actually said - he assumes that is what you mean. It has been done to me, write ONE sentence and you will get a 2 paragraph reply from him with all kinds of assumptions about what you're saying and his arguments to the contrary. It's actually been pointed out several times in this post alone.

It has happened time and time again on this blog for the past 2 years or so... which is why about 90% of the people on here don't even bother anymore. 1487, I hope you don't behave this way outside of this forum in your personal or professional life. And don't worry about responding, as unfortunately I'm probably not going to bother reading it. Sorry.

Aura-Nation/GM nation came in full swing on this one..

The button does look on the cheap side.

Tsk tsk. I go away for 48 hours and this is what happens? Do any of you have any idea how long it just took me to catch up?

Now, there was so much discussed that I can't possibly respond to it all right now. But here's a few key points:

1487 - You are pretty much out of control man. You attack constantly. You have some great tidbits hidden among great piles of BS, and that's why it's hard to get your point across. You attack, attack, attack. You throw up straw man arguments (i.e. arguments that don't actually deal with anything anyone said) and then accuse others of that activity.

And I thought I had seen progress out of you recently. It saddens me.

To all, including 1487:

Sometimes cars feel different to different people, and they are enjoyed more by some groups of people than others. Sometimes like-minded people group together. And sometimes those groups of people fairly assess a vehicle and put out a review that reflects those feelings.

That's not bias. It's a subjective review process.

To give a personal example: I drove a 1998 BMW z3 2.8 liter 5-speed. It was wearing Michelin Hydroedge tires with a tall sidewall. It was one of the most fun cars I've ever driven.....because it had an incredible driving experience combined with a loose feeling chassis and easy sliding tires. Now I want to buy one.

It didn't win any tests, doesn't look good on a spreadsheet, and is beaten on paper by my father's 99 Boxster 5-speed.

But I'd rather have the Z3.

I guess that means I'm a BMW fanboi? No.

Those are the intangible things that seperate cars.

Realize that, and you'll be able to argue more effectively.

Joe

"Those are the intangible things that seperate cars.

Realize that, and you'll be able to argue more effectively."

Well said. But I think you have to actually be a genuine car enthusiast to appreciate this sort of thing. Some people just aren't and their primary concern is the specs on paper.

After keeping up with this entire dog & pony show of a comments section, I decided to join in and comment. To begin, I'd like to say I have lost quite a bit of respect and credibility towards Edmunds, however I still find their reviews and opinions informative and worthwhile. Anyways, back to what matters.

About the mesh wind deflector, I say that any normal/average owner will not notice nor care about it, the bottom line is that it does it's job effectively. As far as it being cheap, that obviously is questionable. Audi seems to disagree since they use it in the $43,500+ Q7.

Being that I do not own a vehicle with a sunroof, therefore no switch for a sunroof, I really do not have much to base a complaint off of, but I do think that it would be annoying, but after a while one would probably get over it. As you said Josh, it's certainly not a deal breaker.

Ahh, now to comment on the little on going debate. I, for the most part agree with 1487, and I will admit I do see somewhat of a bias on occasion. I can see where both sides are coming from with their opinions on the matter. There is no doubt that Josh wants a comeback from the Big Three, besides I honestly can not see any American auto journalist wanting any of the Big Three to disappear, and if there is any, in my opinion, they have the wrong job.

I think the American automotive press has grown tired of seeing their home team performing so terribly, which is why they review every American vehicle so critically compared to the Asian offerings.

Just like the press has become tired, all the pro-american fans have also grown extremely tired of seeing their favorites being bashed so harshly, especially now since that comeback we have all been waiting for seems to be appearing, yet the bashing has not let up, and most journalists are still very captious towards the Americans. We are tired of seeing this favoritism and because of this I can totally see 1487's point of view.

I don't see the gripe here...it's effective, and not that cheap looking. The sunroof switch is circa 1994, however.

1487, you need to get laid. No one takes your posts seriously so you should probably not spend so much time typing them.

You sound like the product of WALL-E and the Tin Man...and perhaps Sonny from I, Robot.

There's this thing called humor, and you should probably go check it out. After all, Bob Lutz has a sense of humor and you'd do unspeakable things to be just like him.

Edmunds and other writer's (save TTAC), might be rooting for the home team, but in doing so come to the table with a magnifing glass.

Every domestic car gets picked apart, torn up inside and out, and every detail is put to the 'is this the best' test.

Meanwhile, certain imports, honda, to some extent toyota, (though it seems like their spotlight is fading). Has editors come in expecting quality, and therefor seeing it.

Look at the Kia, everyone thought it was going to be a POS, when it turned out to be decent, the praise IMHO seems overblown.

The Aura, through some fault of GM, and some of the automotice press, was/is supposed to be the peak of design and quality. So then the editors take it upon them selves to rip every little problem apart.

It might not be bias (i'd argue otherwise), it just might be, that when you go looking for problems, you find them. When you go expecting a lack of problems, unless there in your face obivous, you wont notice.

I never thought 1 button would get so many people wound up. I dont see a problem with the wind deflector myself but the button itself belongs in late 90's Grand Am.

Edmunds, P L E A S E....post pictures of the Accords sunroof button for direct comparison so this thread can end. =)

"Somehow the malibu is praised but the aura isnt. the malibu and aura are 99% the same. The only difference is that the malibu has a different dash pad basically. Everything else is the same."

If people would take the time to scratch the surface the detailing and overall execution of the Malibu is much better than the Aura. I for one scope out everything and the Malibus interior fit, finish and materials are pretty much in the top 5 of the class.

Only 2 things I really didnt care for regarding the Malibu:

- The interior door panels are flat, plain and boring.

- The rear end doesnt fit the rest of the cars upscale look.

Im clearly a Honda fan and can find more things I dont like about the Accord than the Malibu.

Personally, I've liked the Aura since the first time I ever saw it. I'd be proud if any family member bought it (over, say, the current camry). I'd say the same thing about the Malibu and the Accord...maybe the Altima. And the Sonata. Each one has it's own flavor and uniqueness, and driving experience.

But I will criticize cheapness where I see it. My magnifying glass applies to all vehicles, including my own (06 Civic SI and 08 Legacy GT).

The first time I sat in an Aura was within 2 months of it's release. The showroom model example had an egregious fit & finish problem on the top-center of the dash. That bothered me something feirce, as it was so obvious and terrible. I didn't care for the driver's side door armrest (I also don't care for the one in my 08 Legacy GT). A few other things bothered me (it's gauges, backlighting, cupholders)...but otherwise, I thought it was quite nice and a very nice overall effort.

I think the Malibu is the Aura with 1 further year of design...which, in some effects, it is. I don't see a problem with that.

I don't see a problem with any of my assessments, which come from personal experience. If something is not a personal experience, I name it (i.e. if I haven't driven it/driven in it, if I've only seen pictures, etc.).

Those things aren't bias, when you are equally critical everywhere.

But some people become so prejudiced they begin to see bias anywhere someone doesn't agree with them (this applies to politics, cars, wine, stamp collections, and interior decorating as far as I can tell....:) )

Aura's a great vehicle. The photo aboves shows to me a cheap-looking plastic sunroof adjustment and a questionable-duration sunroof-deflector design. If the same design is in the Q7, I would still question it's longevity.

Joe

Joe et al,

I appreaciate all the long winded lecturing and insults but no one has bothered to simply respond to the points I made. I also find it comical that multiple people claim that "no one" respects my opinions or responds to my posts when that is clearly a crock. If everyone is smarter than I am and everyone is better at formulating arguments that I am I want to know why there is so little in terms of substantive rebuttals to my points regarding the supposed lackluster appeal of the Aura. The Accord is preferred because its the Accord, period. We can talk about "intangibles" all day long but there is rarely any consensus on intangibles. The intangible attributes of the Accord that many are touting aren't significant to me and this is why at the end of the day you have to evaluate the cars on what they actually do.

"Aura's a great vehicle. The photo aboves shows to me a cheap-looking plastic sunroof adjustment and a questionable-duration sunroof-deflector design. If the same design is in the Q7, I would still question it's longevity."

At least you seem capably of acknowledging the shortcomings of other vehicles. Unfortunately you are in a minority here. You nor Josh nor anyone else has ever explained how you determined the mesh deflector is "cheap". You are saying it's
cheap because its on the Aura and that's really all there is to that. I would venture to guess that the mesh material likely costs more than the thin piece of metal or plastic found on most deflectors. If such a system is used in high end Euro vehicles I am going to go out on a limb and guess there is a reason for this design.

"If people would take the time to scratch the surface the detailing and overall execution of the Malibu is much better than the Aura. I for one scope out everything and the Malibus interior fit, finish and materials are pretty much in the top 5 of the class. "

I have checked out both cars. The materials are exactly the same. In fact the hard plastic trim below on the lower interior panels is exactly the same. The interior door panels and switches are the same. The leather and seats are exactly the same. The center stack is about 80% the same. The wheel, gauge layout most interior buttons are the same. The differences are in the design of the dash. The trim in the Malibu lines up better than the Aura but the dash/door gap is about the same in both cars.

bimmerjay,

I rarely engage you so I'm not sure why you are claiming to be such a victim. You chimed in by agreeing that people like myself feel that anything but unabashed praise of every GM product like to claim bias. That is so far from the truth that it's pathetic. Part of the problem is that you and others have decided to group everyone wh doesnt agree with every position stated by the editors into the same category. I have made no claims about the reliability of import vehicles, the inferiority of said vehicles or the perfection of GM vehicles. Please hold me responsible for what I have actually said and nothing more. If anyone has come up with any logical explanation for why the MKS is a worst in class luxury car or why the Aura is severely lacking vs the Accord I will gladly listen.

"1487, you need to get laid. No one takes your posts seriously so you should probably not spend so much time typing them. "

If I could post with your level of intelligence and insight I would probably be taken much more seriously. Thanks for the tip. If I find myself on the same side of any debate as the illustruous zoomzoom I will know I have lost all credibility.

"Sometimes cars feel different to different people, and they are enjoyed more by some groups of people than others. Sometimes like-minded people group together. And sometimes those groups of people fairly assess a vehicle and put out a review that reflects those feelings."

As usual you are never lacking confidence in your own intellect. Shockingly I understand what subjectivity entails. Anyone who who uses pure subjectivity to evaluate cars is a poor reviewer. We all know every journalists has a favorite brand of car and I suspect few journalists own domestic cars. To have an opinion is human, but to allow your personal preferences and biases towards brands to become your primary criteria for evaluation is just wrong. The reason why Sadlier was sputtering when asked to come up with legitimate reasons why the Aura is a medicore midsize car is because he really didn't have many "good" reasons. He made it clear the "important" people in the office prefer the Accord and leave the Aura for the people lower on the totem pole. It's obvious that the Accord's perfect reputation is sterling amongst the entire staff and thus all the shortcomings that have been noted in these blogs and other places are summarily dismissed as minor annoyances to be ignored. While cars to inspire strong opinions and preferences they are still machines that can be compared based on objective criteria. I asked earlier why virtually every auto magazine uses test numbers to compare cars if it's true that we should simply trust the subjective opinions of the editors. No one responded. If Honda is your favorite brand I doubt any Chevy, Saturn or Hyundai will ever "feel" better than a Honda. If GM put the same steering gear from the Accord in the Aura people would still say the Aura's steering was lacking. People say the Ford engine in Mazda products is great but say it's lackluster in Ford products. People say the Focus's engine is mediocre for the class but no one says that when the same engine appears in the 3. There are plenty of examples of such inconsistencies. I have a technical background so its difficult for me to accept that in today's world cars built to the same price point are THAT different. "feel" is often the excuse to be thrown in at the last minute to justify a ranking.

1487 - Sometimes I feel that part of my life's mission has become educating you :)

Here's a comment of yours I'll tackle:

"I asked earlier why virtually every auto magazine uses test numbers to compare cars if it's true that we should simply trust the subjective opinions of the editors. No one responded."

Auto magazines use both subjective and objective, just like Edmunds. They post subjective reviews (i.e. steering feedback, ride/handling balance, sound of the engine, quality of the seating materials) and then objective assessments (i.e. slalom times, 0-60 times, braking distances). Does that answer your question? They try to provide both, because you can't just use one over the other (though I've seen you favor the objective measurements).

"If Honda is your favorite brand I doubt any Chevy, Saturn or Hyundai will ever "feel" better than a Honda. If GM put the same steering gear from the Accord in the Aura people would still say the Aura's steering was lacking. People say the Ford engine in Mazda products is great but say it's lackluster in Ford products. People say the Focus's engine is mediocre for the class but no one says that when the same engine appears in the 3."

The Accord has fabulous steering for a mid-size family sedan (not best in class, mind you, which I give to the Legacy due to it's symmetrical drivetrain not interfering with steering). But, like you yourself have pointed out, the Accord has somewhat unacceptable levels of road noise for it's segment. On a test drive, road noise to me is always more apparent...because I'm listening...while when you own something, you tend to tune out such things with the radio, etc.

Regarding the Ford/Mazda engine comparison. have you driven both? I realize they utilize the same engine, but I've driven a Ford Focus 2.3 liter automatic and a Mazda 3 hatchback 2.3 5-speed....and it feels and sounds like a different engine. If you haven't driven both, then I don't think YOU can accurately assess "bias" in those reviews. Seriously.

What FEEL do you take to be most important? For me, I look for a blend of:

smooth, free-revving engines (subjective), smooth, easy going shifting (manual trans),
tight ride handling with unpleasantness filtered out,
"hugging" seats,
Pleasant sounding engine

All of those are subjective. How exactly would you measure them via a review, and how exactly would you call me biased for finding BMW & Honda to cars that fit those qualities which I prefer?

Joe

Joefrompa said: "Aura's a great vehicle. The photo aboves shows to me a cheap-looking plastic sunroof adjustment and a questionable-duration sunroof-deflector design. If the same design is in the Q7, I would still question it's longevity."

To which 1487 responded:
"At least you seem capably of acknowledging the shortcomings of other vehicles. Unfortunately you are in a minority here. You nor Josh nor anyone else has ever explained how you determined the mesh deflector is "cheap". You are saying it's cheap because its on the Aura and that's really all there is to that."

1487 - You disagreed with yourself in the same paragraph. You "acknowledged" that I could discern the shortcomings of other vehicles, but then say "Joe's only saying it's cheap because it's in the Aura and that's all there is to it."

So which is it? Am I capable of calling out what I consider cheap design on any vehicle, or am I hopelessly biased against the Aura?

I have, multiple times in this comments thread, said why I think it's a cheap design. But apparently you have chosen not to read and just to attack me as "You nor Josh nor anyone else has ever explained how you determined the mesh deflector is "cheap"."

Let me state it again: I think it's a cheap design because that are of the car is exposed to lots of dirt, moisture, and extreme cold and hot. A mesh deflector, such as pictured above, is held together on it's ends by glue, and is regular flexed and un-flexed.

Much like a convertible top, it's bound to degrade over time due to flexing/unflexing, dirt, moisture, and extreme cold.

So that mesh fabric could be made out of platinum plated cotton for all I care, the design to me looks like something that will not hold up and therefore I called it how I sawz it :)

But hey, even though the same design is utilized in high-end cars and I criticize the design universally....I'm hopelessly biased against the Aura and could never accurately portray my own feelings in an un-biased way.

Joe

1487-
People give many good rebuttals to your posts but you are too defensive and narrow minded to actually understand them. Is it lonely up there on your pedestal?

Thank you, once again, for proving my point. What you fail to realize is that by taking the time to nit pick what everyone has to say, and then posting multiple times in a row with an argument against everyone, you lose all credibility.

A blog is as much about communicating and knowing how to speak with others as it is proving your point, and that's where you fail. If I find myself typing "with your level of intelligence", as you say, I'll stop posting altogether. I and many others may not give you the responses you'd like, but that's a blog...if you can't handle that, you should probably play your little game elsewhere.