2007 Saturn Aura XR: Kinda Creepy

I think some cars are creepier than others. a 2003 VW Jetta 1.8T has a lot of creep, the Camry, Accord, Altima don't have that much creep. From what I remember from a Chevy Cobalt, that wasn't too bad either. Some creeps feel too torquey, like the Jetta

ohhh, I wanna play. "It could be worse, it could be an import where you let your foot off the gas and coast backwards".

:)

I concur just for the hell of it.

I asked this in the last thread about the Aura, but it got lost in the sea of 100+ comments about a switch. Anyway, why is the Aura still around? Isn't its year over?

I am sure the most useful part of having a decent amount of "creep" is dealing with LA traffic. I am sure it makes it easier to only have to manipulate one pedal for hours on end when the freeway is barely moving.

I'm with you on this on! One of my pet peeves is with people stopping 2 car lenghts behind someone at a light and then taking 2 or 3 creeps to close the gap. I think this is inconsiderate to other motorists behind these creeps.

doesn't it help mpg a bit if the engine isn't tugging so much at the torque converter while sitting at a stop?

"I am sure the most useful part of having a decent amount of "creep" is dealing with LA traffic. I am sure it makes it easier to only have to manipulate one pedal for hours on end when the freeway is barely moving."

I agree...I like the creep, simply because of stop and go traffic.

"I'm not certain the Aura's creep is any more aggressive than any other car's, but it's annoying nonetheless."

I've seen creep in every automatic I've ever driven, so I'm glad you mentioned the above.

redleggt -

I agree completely! - why do people do that?
I leave enough space to see the preceeding vehicle's rear tires - just in case I need to get out of there for whatever reason. But I stop just once - not a creep.

As far as I can recall, all of the automatics that I've ever owned (including my Aura XE) have had about the same amount of creep. But I think the Aura XR I test drove may have had more creep than the XE I ended up purchasing.

I once read a blurb in a car mag, where some engineer explained the rationale for the creep -- and it made some sense at the time. Of course, I can't remember what it is now...

I'd imagine the more creep the better.
That may mean less power lost to the torque converter inefficiency; the slightest engine motion is getting through the torque converter.

Or maybe the brake pedal is too hard for you to apply enough pressure?

How about we write these kinds of articles about creep in AT's, rather than creep in a specific car?

I don't think this one is going to wind too many people up, but that's only because they're licking their wounds from the last Aura article. If we weren't all recovering from that, the fire would be burning here.

If you leave a car with a manual transmission in gear it will creep at idle, too. As long as the engine is in gear the car will try to move forward (or backward, as the case may be). I don't see any problem with this since it has more to do with automatic transmissions than any decision by automakers.

I've been annoyed in cars with strong creep and a weak initial tip-in on the brake pedal (i.e. it actually takes moderate foot pressure to stop the creep).

I think creep is built into automatic transmission to ease the passage into 1st gear acceleration....if the car was in "neutral" and then gas was applied, it would either need to "jerk" a little or slowly ramp up power, instead of having the momentary "creep".

I know manual transmissions do this as well, but it's more a function of momentum, idle speed throttle input, and connecting the wheels to the engine....plus, that type of creep can be a little rough on the drivetrain on some cars (at least 2 of the cars I've driven tend to get very jerky creeping in 1st gear unless the surface is flat or downhill).

Joe

I noticed something similar in a Chevy Trailblazer I rented once. When I was cruising along and let off the gas pedal to slow down a little, the vehicle never slowly down and even gained a little speed when around 30mph. This was annoying because I would have to brake to slow down and I could not use gas pedal modulation to control my speed. Does GM build in these oddities to all their cars?

I havent noticed the creep in my aura to be anymore than any other car ive driven. Everyone companys cars seem to have around the same creep. Once in a while you do get a car that has no creep or a car that creeps a lot. I think if we took a poll a lot of people would prefer creeping over not creeping. Its all preference though.

dilettante, unless I'm misunderstanding you, wouldn't a manual transmission left in gear at idle just stall?

I don't like a very strong creep either, although a gentle creep is useful for minor parking adjustments, like inching closer to a wall in a tight parking deck.

I'll posit that creep strength is not something the average driver thinks about, unless it feels very strong or very weak, which makes me think the Aura's could be on the aggressive side.

"...the concept of creating artificial creep is baffling."

Creep is not artificial. It's a function of how torque converters work. Could the torque converter be de-coupled at a stop? Sure, but then you'd probably get clunkier starts off the line, and creep is useful for low-speed maneuvering.

If it makes you feel any better, I have a 1970 Olds Cutlass with an occasionally troublesome transmission. During one bad period, It "crept" up to 20 mph at idle in an empty parking lot. Now that is strong creep.

It seems to me that since most people who lack appropriate driving skills drive automatic transmission cars, this is a way of allowing for low speed maneuverability without having them crash into everything.

By the way, I like the creative blog titles you guys come up with. Until it gets into the groan-worthy puns with the R8 that is.

The title of this blog is a perfect example of why many believe there is a bias.

Does anyone believe that the Accord will have blogs that say kinda creepy or Is it better than the bus? Come on, sometimes it is amazing that you guys(gals) defend this. Eventually, even but the most intense GM haters have to admit the editors sometimes are over the top.

To the topic at hand, I disagree intensely with the idea that it leads to sloppy driving. I have driven many cars in my 24 years of driving, and I actually prefer an automatic be able to creep forward as described.

At a red light on a hill, you want that creep. The last thing that should happen is an automatic should roll backwards on a hill. This happens in my wife's 2000 Venture. Not enjoyable.

The fact is a good driver can use that creep to their advantage in many driving conditions. On a hill, not having to stab the pedal, which is hard on all components and wastes gas. The creep allows a good driver to ease into the gas allowing better mileage. It also allows smoother starts for any passengers, hill or level ground.

Now that I think about it, it all makes sense.

The editors who have complained about the XR having almost too much torque. Now this, it simply appears none of them have learned how to adjust to a torquey engine with an auto.

Since most worship at the Japanese car altar, most appear to not drive high torque engines, but rather like high rpm engines. This means most have learned over time to hit the gas hard at a green light. Since that is not needed with a high torque car, the editor's driving styles need to change, not the car.

I learned to drive in a Suburban. My first car was a 1972 Chevrolet Impala with a 400 cubic inch engine. I was taught at an early age to have a feather touch on the gas pedal, especially since I drove a rear wheel drive car in snow. No need to floor the gas pedal, torque got you across the light without having to rev the engine. The creep was there along with the torque and no need to floor the engine.

However, when my wife bought a 1986 Chevy Nova(Toyota Corolla) with a 1.6 liter 5 speed, I had issues for the first two months. Why, because I tried to drive it like my Impala. Low revs, early shifts. It didn't work, that engine had to be revved to get going. Here is the key, I adjusted to the car and once I did, no problems.

It seems the editors need to drive a car more than once a week, or adjust their driving styles from car to car.

"The title of this blog is a perfect example of why many believe there is a bias."

"Does anyone believe that the Accord will have blogs that say kinda creepy or Is it better than the bus?"

2008 Honda Accord EX-L V6: ECOnnoying

2008 Honda Accord EX-L V6: Accord Seat Discord

2008 Honda Accord EX-L V6: Maybe It's A Tumor

2008 Honda Accord: Less Lumbar, Jack

What an idiotic post. Laura should be banned from commenting on vehicles. Please post relevant topics and not "bitching" posts. Thanks.

cp88, that was rude and uncalled for. Maybe you disagree, but this was a valid observation on the car (even though it applies to most cars) and it opened a good discussion.

Aurakr, Edubya is right. I think you're a bit heavy handed on the bias pronouncement. Yes Edmunds is tough on domestic cars, but Detroit could use some tough criticism to improve. They go overboard sometimes, but I don't think this is an example of that. Will this blog turn anyone off an Aura? Probably not.

lol

its funny, because you NON-biased journalist, could simply use just about any automatic to complain about creep.

Yet, time and time again you chose to post this domestic/ aura bashing as if toyota/honda are paying you per bad comment.

a high torque american v6 with an automatic transmssion creeps.

and better yet "I'm not certain the Aura's creep is any more aggressive than any other car's"

Why then post about the Aura. Just come out of the cloest and admit it. Edmunds hates the aura, and most domestic's.

And to follow it up by talking about manuals just stopping? WTF. when can in a manaul transmission car just 'stop'. Oh yes, on that mythical flat surface. Put it in neutral on any hill, take foot off brake, and geuss what, it 'creeps'.

While cp88 is a bit over the top.

Like stovt001 put it, maybe edmunds 'could use some tough criticism to improve'.

Joe i think on this one your wrong.

the creep is more likely then not built in to help save the drivetrain, and make starting less smooth.

it sounds like the troque convertor is much more efficent, thereby transmitting more power to the wheels earlier on. Instead of spinning up faster and building up pressure, it allows a smoother ramp up to power.

I would think an engine with alot of torque that didn't have creep in an auto application would have much more of a jolt.

Actually when an automatic has less "creep" MPG goes up, creep costs you gas mileage.

I hated the roll back in the Ford Edge, apparently it rolled back due to a design that favored MPG over creep.

Oh and keep up the GM posts, love them.

I dislike the artifical "creep" built into VWAG's DSG. It's the one thing that annoys me about it. I'd rather have a hill-hold assist for times when I'm facing up a hill.

cp88, that was just plain rude. if you don't have anything relevant to contribute, then don't say anything.

oddly enough....my old 99 VW NB TDi 5 speed had some sort of creep too. With the car in 1st, if you came up off the clutch slowly, the car would begin to move forward (and not stall), without touching the gas pedal. on a flat ground, I could move off in 1st and into 2nd without hitting the gas. I guess the injectors would kick in automatically once it senses it was about to stall. because of this, it was a very easy car to teach people how to drive a stick in.

"Can't GM design a decent family sedan? No wonder they're on their death bed. Good riddance!!! Typical domestic trash!!"

You should be embarrassed for posting such nonsense.

Why does the Aura get dinged for doing things that all cars do? I just dont get that at all.

"cp88, that was just plain rude. if you don't have anything relevant to contribute, then don't say anything."

If the editors followed that rule the Aura would never get reported on. The post lacks relevance and thus you get some comments that are a little tasteless. Dont be surprised.

"Oh and keep up the GM posts, love them."

I am trying to figure out if you hate GM more than you love Mazda. Its a tough one.

jahfakin - You were experiencing the supreme low-end torque available in a diesel. My friend's Golf TDI was capable of the very same thing - even on an incline! Indeed, it proved an easy car to drive stick because of that.

"Why does the Aura get dinged for doing things that all cars do? I just don't get that at all. "

She stated upfront that automatic transmissions do this.

^^ ok she said "nearly all cars", either way, same difference.

bradyholt: "dilettante, unless I'm misunderstanding you, wouldn't a manual transmission left in gear at idle just stall?"

If you drop the clutch, yes. If you ease into it, the computer adjusts idle fuel trim to compensate for the increased load and voila! The car creeps. Granted, this only works in low gear, and may be difficult on large grade inclines. This is easier with higher torque engines.

Lots of manual transmission cars will creep if you slowly let the clutch out when in 1st gear. My old 97 Jeep Wrangler 4.0 Sahara 5-speed (what a beautiful car) would creep over or down freaking boulders without a hiccup in 4-lo when in 1st gear without any throttle input.

Opfreak - I'm not sure where your disagreement with me was....I think your post was agreeing with me.

Maybe I missed it?

Joe

I've been able to creep in all my manual transmission cars. Funny, though -- my 325i doesn't seem to like doing it. It bucks and has stalled on occasion when I try to creep with it.

Joe, i think i just misread this

"I know manual transmissions do this as well, but it's more a function of momentum, idle speed throttle input, and connecting the wheels to the engine....plus, that type of creep can be a little rough on the drivetrain on some cars (at least 2 of the cars I've driven tend to get very jerky creeping in 1st gear unless the surface is flat or downhill)."

late at night. But your right, I think I was saying the same thing you are.

I have an idea: do a creep top speed test!

Gather up all the auto tranny vehicles in your fleet and see how fast they go in a flat parking lot without using the gas pedal. Heck, you could even try it w/ some manual cars too (in my M3, if I slowly let off the clutch w/out pressing the gas, the car will engage 1st gear and not stall. Not sure if other MT cars will do this though)

I just tested creep on my manual MINI. Its true, if I leave the shifter in first and ease on the clutch, it creeps. I didn't notice this before, so I guess you learn something new everyday.

Opfreak - It's ok, I re-read what I posted and it was not written in a easily readable fashion. Sorry.

Regarding creep in manual transmissions - Just about every manual transmission will do this....some will even do it uphill, some will not.

Joe

I won't even get into all the back and forth on here. I have long since dismissed this blog as pure entertainment instead of a serious automobile revue.

All I have to say is, when I am stopped, I keep my foot on the break, when I want to go, I put it on the gas. Hey, no creep that way! Wow. I have not even noticed a hint of this problem in the year and a half I have driven my Aura.

Kudos for slipping the Radiohead reference in there, though ;-)

This is purely a function of having an engine that produces significant torque at idle speed and transmission with a low stall speed (i.e. a transmission that puts that wastes less energy by putting more torque to the ground rather than wasting it as heat). Don't like it? Get a car with a smaller, higher-revving engine and an automatic transmission with a higher stall speed (which makes the transmission input and output speeds more independent of each other, but wastes more energy as heat).

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just feel that these posts are irrelevant when they focus on such issues as "creep". I hope that when I come to this board daily it would focus on the love of cars and the joys and freedoms we experience in driving cars we love, whether it's a Bentley or a Beetle. Most posts about performers such as the R8 or GTR focusing on the joys of driving them. I'm sure they have flaws and annoyances to someone, but does it truly matter to the rest of us who think they're great? Why can't we focus on such with the cars most of us can afford, even if we have to make compromises and buy a more mundane family car. I've driven many cars over the years and have always found some pleasure in driving them--or just in driving. When just trivial matters such as "creeping" are brought up, and then the debate ensues about how much "creep" is right, it just annoys me. If the transmission failed, then OK mention it and the trials and tribulations of fixing it. I would love if the editors would find a bit more joy in driving these daily cars to wherever their hectic life takes them, and relate those stories back to us. I wish I had their jobs and the ability to trade off daily on all these nice cars.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just feel that these posts are irrelevant when they focus on such issues as "creep". I hope that when I come to this board daily it would focus on the love of cars and the joys and freedoms we experience in driving cars we love, whether it's a Bentley or a Beetle. Most posts about performers such as the R8 or GTR focusing on the joys of driving them. I'm sure they have flaws and annoyances to someone, but does it truly matter to the rest of us who think they're great? Why can't we focus on such with the cars most of us can afford, even if we have to make compromises and buy a more mundane family car. I've driven many cars over the years and have always found some pleasure in driving them--or just in driving. When just trivial matters such as "creeping" are brought up, and then the debate ensues about how much "creep" is right, it just annoys me. If the transmission failed, then OK mention it and the trials and tribulations of fixing it. I would love if the editors would find a bit more joy in driving these daily cars to wherever their hectic life takes them, and relate those stories back to us. I wish I had their jobs and the ability to trade off daily on all these nice cars.

This blog entry inspired me to try out the creep in my manual Saab 900: It works for a while but then the engine starts to bog and judder. Oh well. The poor thing is fourteen years old after all.

What kind of auto editor doesn't understand how torque converters work? Creep isn't an optional function, it's the result of having a reasonably "tight" torque converter so you don't have to rev the heck out of the car to get moving.

Morover, manual transmission cars do not "creep." You may be able to slip the clutch and have the ECU maintain idle speed, but that is not the same thing.

you know what guys.

This gives even more ammo to the people that claim you dont know how to drive the aura.

When you complain of torque steer/too much power.

Its obivous that the combination of a high torque/low rpm engine, with a "tight" torque convertor is getting you in trouble.

You stomp on the car thinking you need to hit 'vtec' for power and are just surprised that power is their from the get go.

As to the guys that have manuals and didn't know this, i'm learning how to drive a stick, and even I was told you could do this, in fact alot of writings about it online tell you to start that way to get a feel for the clutch. IE release clutch vey slowly so that you can get the car moving without any gas input... I'm assuming high torque engines make this alot easier.

"Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just feel that these posts are irrelevant when they focus on such issues as "creep". "

This post is no more irrelevant then the CTS tail light detail. This one just gets flamed because the editor put a negative spin on it.

"As to the guys that have manuals and didn't know this, i'm learning how to drive a stick, and even I was told you could do this, in fact alot of writings about it online tell you to start that way to get a feel for the clutch."

Not knowing this 'feature' on my manual didn't affect me. You will find that you'll never use it in real life (assuming you have any control of your clutch at all).

"She stated upfront that automatic transmissions do this."

Got it. So what's the point of the post? Why is the Aura being singled out as if it's the first auto ever driven by the author? If most autos have this trait it's something endemic to auto equipped cars. If you don't like it I supposed you should be driving a stick.

"This post is no more irrelevant then the CTS tail light detail. This one just gets flamed because the editor put a negative spin on it."

Do you ever stop making excuses? That's a rhetorical question but I asked anyway. This is irrelevant because its critical of something that isnt even a flaw and is common to auto equipped vehicles. The CTS post notes a distinctive and attractive design feature specific to THAT car. The two entries have nothing in common. People dont mind hearing about unique positive or negative aspects of each vehicle. Complaining about creep on a car when all automatics have some degree of creep is ridiculous. Honestly, have you EVER had ANY disagreement with anything posted in these LT blogs? I mean we do get what we pay for but that doesn't mean things can't be improved.

"Honestly, have you EVER had ANY disagreement with anything posted in these LT blogs?"

What can I say, I'm a happy/friends/ person who doesn't go out of the way to create anger and confrontation.

gah edit.

happy/friendly

"What can I say, I'm a happy/friends/ person who doesn't go out of the way to create anger and confrontation."

Create? Give me a break. What is the purpose of any of this if we are all here to agree on everything 100% of the time. I don't know that I have much regard for people who have no unique opinions. For the record, I don't disagree with people who seem to use any sort of logic in their posts. You and others have propagated this myth that I disagree with "everyone" which is totally inaccurate. I even think you and Joefrompa make valid points from time to time.

"What is the purpose of any of this if we are all here to agree on everything 100% of the time."

You know very well that I don't always agree with IL opinions - you accuse me of this on a regular basis, and I refute it on a regular basis. How many times do I need to repeat it? It is growing tiresome.

1487 - You know, I thought of that the other day (regarding agreeing 100%). I thought, without 1487 how often would I post on here?

You complete me. Thanks. :)

Joe

P.s. The point of posts like these is to point out random things that feel/seem different than other vehicles. In this case, I take it that the creep in the Aura is more pronounced for maybe one or two reasons:

1. It tends to creep faster than other cars
and/or
2. It has a soft initial brake tip-in that makes you press down harder on the brake pedal to stop the creep.

I've driven several auto cars that were like #2, and they genuinely annoyed me in traffic. I hate the feeling that if I have an itch in my foot and let up some pressure it'll creep forward.

Joe

doug,

Simple question for you: if you feel justified in disagreeing with some of the blog entries when it suits you, why are you so incredulous when I disagree? I'm not following your logic there at all. You seem to find it unreasonable that I may disagree at times when you concede you question some of the posts here. Your incessant desire to complain everytime I offer a point of view that differs from an all-knowing editor is what's tiresome. It's interesting that you alluded to the fact that you believe some people here secretly work for automakers because I'm starting to wonder if you work for IL or wish to do so.

Joe,

Since I have driven the Aura and many other autos let me tell you that the "creep" is nothing special. I mean I'm sure you are better qualified to justify this complaint (you always are) but in my experience the car doesn't do anything abnormal when in drive.

^^1487:

Haha I wish I could work for IL, but alas I have no interest in writing or in anything outside of my current (non automotive) field. That being said, I think you unfairly assign myself, and anyone who disagrees with you as some sort of IL apologist. For example, in the last argument/discussion (Lincoln MKS) I highlighted your accusations about me, and the things you claimed I said. This included supporting IL about the Lincoln MKS. I spent the time to go line by line and prove that I did not in fact say what you claimed I did. You completely ignored my post. This is not the first time that has happened. I truly do think that you do not properly read or perhaps, understand to tone of some of my comments. As a result, I am drawn into arguments in order to defend myself from things I didn't say. Because honestly, I find myself arguing against you about cars like the Aura and the Malibu, when I really not have a problem with them. I don't know whether you realize, but I am not an insane brand junkie like some people on this site.

But back to your question - I think you posed a good question, so I'll do my best to answer it:

You perceive me as complaining whenever you offer an opinion - I will be the first to admit that I make some sarcastic comments about waiting for the expected negative rebuttle, etc. I think this stems from the fact that I get frustrated by your unwavering, unrelenting defense of 'domestic' car companies. Regardless of what is said about them (whether legitimate or not), you dismiss it as a nitpick and then go on to claim that everything is class leading, every other magazine disagrees with IL, etc, etc. Its sort of like a boy-who-cried-wolf scenario - say you "may disagree at times" is a gross understatement. We all love the cars we own/drive/follow, but I personally don't think that any vehicle (including the one I own) is perfect and I have no problem stating that about a Honda, GM, Ford, MINI or whatever.

And often, you respond to these comments (the comments of both IL staff, and other posters on here) with rude, harsh comments that do not promote friendly conversation - "WRONG", "WHEN WILL YOU LEARN", etc. If you want to have fair, realistic conversation, you need to treat people as equals, with valid opinions. Just because my opinion doesn't agree with you does not make me wrong, and does not mean I am not using some logic in my approach. This is the reason you get sarcastic comments from myself, and from others.

I don't want to get into another argument, so posting the above comment may not have been the best idea. My apologies to those of you sick of reading these arguments in the blogs. At any rate, I'm done with this one unless its actually about the car :)

Doug,

I believe you and I follow the motto dictated in this picture:

http://www.reallifephotos.org/wrong/

Quote "I mean I'm sure you are better qualified to justify this complaint (you always are) but in my experience the car doesn't do anything abnormal when in drive. "

1487 - Yes, I am always more qualified than you to have my own opinion. You are not nearly as justified as I am in having my opinion, or being able to comment on my opinion.

I didn't say it was abnormal, I said it's an annoying trait some automatic cars I've driven have experienced (that is, the urge to creep forward unless a fair amount of brake pedal effort is exerted). I have no idea if the trait is shared on the Aura, I was just stating that I've experienced that type of trait before and it's annoying.

How exactly are you disagreeing with me on my own personal experiences?

Oh wait, you just decided to reformulate my post into your own understanding and then comment on it.

Nice technique.

Joe

As far as "creep" goes, I do think that it can make some slow-speed maneuvers easier, including 0mph stop-and-go traffic, but even with a mediocre commute, I'd take a manual first. =)

Oh, and just to clarify credit where it's due, the actual source for the comic Joe posted is:

http://xkcd.com/386/

It's a phenominal comic, if math, programming, and other more "nerdy" humor is your thing.

Thanks, didn't know the source. :)

Joe

Snicker. Nice comic. :D

As far as the creep goes, it does vary between different cars, and I think bigfan2000 pretty much hit the nail on the head as to the general mechanical reasons things are this way. Assuming GM didn't make big changes between the Aura and Malibu drivetrains, my 08 LTZ has the same amount of creep (defined by engine torque at idle RPM combined with the torque converter's stall speed, mostly). In some situations this can get annoying, as you've said Joe.

But it's not always bad. Living in hilly / mountainous areas, especially ones where you find yourself stopped against the hill at intersections, these high-torque / low stall / 'creepy' setups are FAR preferable to other cars without any or much creep. Mostly because the one with creep will tend to resist rolling backward while you are able to gently use the throttle to move away up the incine. Vehicles with less engagement do tend to want to roll backward easily as soon as you release the brake, which leaves a few options for these situations (discussed somewhere around here before too!). The first is to hold the brake with one foot while hitting the throttle with the other, and only releasing as the engine engages the transmission enough to resist the rearward roll. The other is to quickly change from brake to throttle, guesstimating exactly how much throttle you'll need right away. The latter often results in either a slight rollback or in gunning the engine (see both here in Asheville NC pretty routinely).

I've already pointed out (acknowledged) that the MalibAura is in the first category. An example of a vehicle that was in the second (especially so) was the 05 Buick Terraza FWD van my wife had. That thing was a bit scary how easily it rolled backwards. For all intents and purposes, the torque converter was completely unlocked at stop / idle in it, and it especially required the techniques I mentioned when driving it around here. This is really fun whenever someone else decides to sit 6" from your rear bumper at a hillside stoplight. Pretty much the same feeling I used to have with stickshifts in the same places, and for the same reasons. Kinda negates the usefulness of the automatic there too..

As for the first type, they're also a bit easier in stop and go traffic, where you can ease up on the brake to move.

Tradeoffs, I guess.

"You perceive me as complaining whenever you offer an opinion - I will be the first to admit that I make some sarcastic comments about waiting for the expected negative rebuttle, etc. I think this stems from the fact that I get frustrated by your unwavering, unrelenting defense of 'domestic' car companies. "

Absolute garbage. This in fact shows unquestionably that you do not read squat that I post and simply rush to jump on my back in order to get cool points from the other syncophants here. You have NEVER heard me reference Chrysler products in my discussions. I rarely even mention Ford, although they are getting better. Stop jumping to conclusions and respond to what I write (or not) and you will be fine. I have made no general statements about the total excellence of GM's lineup or domestic cars in general nor have I ever said I have any particular disdain for import cars. I used to own one afterall. I am merely pointing out inconsistencies and biases that frequently surface here. Nothing more and nothing less. I have nothing against the Accord or any the other average import cars praised by the press, I am just adamant that these cars are largely about the same as the best cars offered by GM (and Ford in some cases). It's that simple. IL would have you believe that the Accord is engineered to a MUCH higher standard than the Aura but no one can tell us why. Once you start depending exclusively on intangibles and estoric criteria to evaluate cars it becomes impossible to prove anything. If you are a lifelong Honda fan it's no surprise that the Accord is going to "feel" better to you than any Saturn or Hyundai or Ford. If I'm a vegetarian I'm probably going to tell people that Morton's isn't a good restaurant. Keep the personal preferences out of the reviews. If anyone choses to buy Hondas and worship Honda engineering they need to keep that to themselves and just give us the facts regarding the vehicles being reviewed.

Doug,

You have truly taken hyperbole to a new level and I think you are starting to confuse me with CX7 and others. I rarely use caps in my posts. I have never claimed to only like certain brands. I like some vehicles from every GM division except Hummer. I also like Mazdas, the G37, the old TL, 3 series, etc. There are a handful of Ford and Chrysler products that are OK as well.

"Regardless of what is said about them (whether legitimate or not), you dismiss it as a nitpick and then go on to claim that everything is class leading..."

Show me where I have made such a claim. Good luck with that search. I have never said the Aura is best in class. If you noticed (of course you skip any posts where I document complaints) I mentioned the Aura's wide turning circle, thick A pillars, wide swinging doors etc. If you noticed I mentioned before than these complaints came up frequently in the owner evaluations here on Edmunds. Very little of the crap complained about here was references. Check the 2007 and 2008 comments for yourself. I'm sorry that I value my personal experience and the experiences of other owners slightly more than the opinions of people who a) have never driven the car or b)reluctantly added the car to a LT fleet even though they thought it was subpar from Day 1. That's just me though.

"1487 - Yes, I am always more qualified than you to have my own opinion. You are not nearly as justified as I am in having my opinion, or being able to comment on my opinion."

No Joe I was telling that since I drive the car I would be a little more qualified to say whether or not it suffers from "excessive" creep. You havent driven the car and were trying to offer explanations as to why it had this "problem". None of the Aura owners have agreed that this is an issue so I was unclear as to why you were offering so much conjecture on this "problem". As far as we can tell this issue is a non issue brought to our attention by someone who either doesnt like automatics or doesn't drive automatics frequently. Nothing I said had anything to do with your right to have an opinion.

what's interesting is how people can delude themselves into believing that they are really "exposing" me with regards to my positions. I ask you to do one simple thing: survey the comments of the other Aura owners that post here or on other places on this site and see if their opinions are more in line with mine or the IL staffers that cant find 5 positive aspects of the car. If you check the consumer rankings you will find the Aura is rated higher than Accord and camry and the Malibu is near the top (if not the top) of the midsize class. Instead of lecturing me about bias and falsely claiming that I have declared that every vehicle GM makes is the best in the world you should actually see what the owners are saying. And don't give me the "we cant trust the owners since they are biased" line because the same could be said of the Camry and accord owners who are ranking their cars lower than the Aura/Malibu. Just to illustrate how credible the ratings are it should be noted that the Sebring and Avenger (two models panned by the media) are in fact amongst the lowest rated by consumers.

1487 - You just took 3 comments to defend yourself. I'll quote one small portion:

"No Joe I was telling that since I drive the car I would be a little more qualified to say whether or not it suffers from "excessive" creep. You havent driven the car and were trying to offer explanations as to why it had this "problem". None of the Aura owners have agreed that this is an issue so I was unclear as to why you were offering so much conjecture on this "problem"."

You read my comments wrong, in multiple ways and multiple times. Read them again. You wasted your time typing a rebuttal that is not even applicable.

Joe